[Triskavanski]

Yes. Street Grimoire brought it back up, mentioning both command and touch being used for Arrows/Knives and that bullets couldn't work very well because they tended to get warped and such.

It has also including in the rules that a Successful Touch Attack allows you to trigger a Touch type trigger without giving the target a chance to dodge and they can only roll to resist the spell.


***************************

Lets look at all the parts.

1: You have to make a touch attack to get a touch preparation to go off on the target to provide the inability to resist the effects.

There is two other things that use a touch attack.

Punch the Spell and Shock Glove.

Both of these have been debated as to if they add the full damage of a real punch or not. Most signs point to No. So... removing a touch trigger arrow's ability to do its normal damage, as everything else has been, Is the over all standard.

Yes it may not be what the people want both want, but well.. Its easily explainable that you have to do changes to the arrow head making it unfit for actually doing the damage.

This is different from a Command type trigger, which could be fired from a bow and then triggered. Just as simply as shooting them with a bow and then shooting  off the command trigger from your belt buckle, or your toe ring. One is just more thematic then the other.

[ZeConster]

In your example here, its the arrow with touch?
But it could easily be replaced with a command trigger type
Or a a more cleverly placed fireball from an equal level sorcerer.

I used both the Contact numbers and Command numbers for the Drain, yes. And if someone casts a Force 9 Fireball during combat, they'll typically suffer -1 or -2 to their actions for the rest of the battle from the Drain damage, and will be identifiable as a spellcaster, neither of which is the case with preparations.

[Triskavanski]

Depends on how the preparation is used for identification. A magic user could see the astral signature fairly easily, even if you're masked. Worse even.. they could use it against you, while that isn't the same with a fireball. What's the mathematics on a character who uses a fireball at force 9 as  a sorcerer? Average of 4.33?

Lots of situations overall.

But if you didn't use it in that hour its going to rot away pretty quickly. Which you might still have traveling time if your in someplace you can rest for two hours and spend nine minutes making an arrow.

**************

Beyond just arrows, the thematic design, there is a number of other methods.

For example, being an alchemist with the ability to cast Fling or Magic Fingers. One could easily set up a box they keep on a thing. Could be anything that isn't living. Then use that to fling enchanted bbs or other small flingable object at your foes.

[ZeConster]

I was talking about mundane opponents, in-combat. Throw a Force 9 Fireball? Anyone still standing just made you their next target. Use a Command trigger and have someone else fire the arrow? Not the case.

As for "rotting": you'll only have 1 hour if the Potency is 1 (with Potency 2 you'll have 3 hours after your 2 hours of resting, and with the average of Potency 3 I mentioned that's 5 hours), you can rest while you travel as long as someone else drives, and the clock only starts ticking when you finish the preparation.

And added bonus: Counterspelling doesn't work against alchemical preparations.

[Triskavanski]

Actually counterspelling still does work against alchemical preparations.

And as for people still up.. That is why you'd want to do it smarter. You've got more control over the spell and more power than you would with a preparation.

[ZeConster]

Actually counterspelling still does work against alchemical preparations.

The counterspelling skill does not work against spirits, critter powers, or alchemical preparations.

And as for people still up.. That is why you'd want to do it smarter. You've got more control over the spell and more power than you would with a preparation.

Of course you have more power. The Alchemy section literally says that preparations "are generally less powerful than their spell counterparts, but they often are more versatile". That doesn't take away that you can totally use a Force 9 Fireball preparation, that you'll typically have plenty of time to recover from the Drain damage before the Potency starts decaying, and that there are several advantages to using it over casting an actual Force 9 Fireball spell or using Punch preparations.

[Triskavanski]

Once the prepared spell is triggered, it can be dispelled or
resisted like any other spell

You just can't counterspell the actual preparation because its not a spell. Once its triggered though, it is a spell now.

As for our Punch vs Fireball, I guess its a huge difference in our play style. If I'm going to go through the time of making an Arcane Archer.. well, I'd want to be an arcane archer. Not a dude who fires off one arrow, regardless of how big it has a potential of being if I hit.

Granted though.. Punch isn't very flashy.

[beastman420]

i could always make trick arrows with armourer as well if the bolt enchanting is too much i just want to make a really awesome parkour archer im just trying to se if i should tech of magic really

[Lucean]

Once the prepared spell is triggered, it can be dispelled or resisted like any other spell

Dispelling is different from counterspelling. The first tries to end spells that are currently in effect, while the latter tries to prevent spells from taking effect.
So in the case of combat spells, there is nothing you can do with counterspelling. You could try to dispel alchemical uses of Increase [Attribute] or similar spells that are sustained by preparations.

[Triskavanski]

Counter-Spelling is two parts.

Spell Defense - Add dice to defense pools
Dispelling - Cancel out on-going effects.


Unless you somehow manage to bypass defense pools, Spell defense is still completely applicable

[Lucean]

Counter-Spelling is two parts.
Spell Defense - Add dice to defense pools
Dispelling - Cancel out on-going effects.
Unless you somehow manage to bypass defense pools, Spell defense is still completely applicable

No ...
The clarifications you cited refer to pages 304-306, they don't change the use of Counterspelling, which is on p. 294.
And in addition you somehow "forgot" the last line of the clarifications, which contradicts your point:

Once triggered, the spell cannot be stopped unless it is dispelled or its duration ends.

[Triskavanski]

Counter Spell does not stop any spell unless its dispelling it or the duration ends.


The skill is split into two uses.

Spell Defense - Which adds to defense pools

SPELLDEFENSE
Spell defense is used against hostile spells cast at you or at targets that are within your line of sight (using the same rules as for targeting spells) that you decide to protect with spell defense. Declaring this protection is either a Free Action or, if you don’t have one left, an Interrupt Action that reduces your Initiative Score by 5. Each Combat Turn, you have a pool of dice for spell defense equal to your Counterspelling skill. When a spell is cast, you may choose to use some or all of your Counterspelling dice to defend against an incoming spell. Against each spell attack, you have to choose how many dice from this pool to allocate for defense, and you can select how many people (including yourself if you desire) are covered by these defensive dice. You can protect a number of people at one time equal to your Magic Rating. These dice are then added to the defense tests of everyone you’re covering. The pool refreshes at the beginning of each Combat Turn

Dispelling - Cancel out an on going effect.

DISPELLING
Dispelling is used to counter a sustained or quickened  spell. A Dispelling Test is the dispeller’s Counterspelling + Magic [Astral] v. spell’s Force + caster’s Magic (+ amount of Karma spent on quickening the spell, if any). You may use a counterspelling focus to add to the test. You can also use reagents to change the limit of the test. Every net hit reduces the number of hits the caster had in casting the spell. This may reduce the effectiveness of the spell (for example, it could affect a Shadow spell’s visibility modifier). If the spell is reduced to 0 net hits, the spell ends completely. Regardless of how
it goes, you take the Drain from the spell as if you had cast it—Physical if the spell’s Force was higher than your Magic rating, Stun otherwise.
A ritual can be dispelled if it contains a spell keyword and is ongoing (sustained or with a duration). Make an Opposed Counterspelling + Magic [Astral] Test against a dice pool equal to the sum of the Force of the spell and the total of the Magic ratings of all of the ritual’s participants. Every net hit you get reduces the net hits from the ritual’s sealing step (p. 296) by 1. You take drain equal to twice the hits (not net hits) on the opposing test. The Drain from dispelling a ritual is Stun unless the ritual’s Force is greater than your Magic rating, in which case the Drain is Physical.

I never somehow "forgot" anything, Spell Defense does not "stop" the spell. It adds to the defense of the individuals in question, resulting in the spell not effecting them. Stopping it, would be trying to uncommand it.

[Lucean]

This is all nice and good, but it does not override CRB p. 294.

You can resist spells even when there is no mage around. Spell resistance only includes counterspelling dice, if someone used spell defense. So since the title is "QUICK ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ABOUT PREPARATIONS (PP. 304–306, SR5)" with Counterspelling not being applicable against preparations on p. 294, I'll reiterate one more time:

You are wrong.

[Triskavanski]

This is all nice and good, but it does not override CRB p. 294.

You can resist spells even when there is no mage around. Spell resistance only includes counterspelling dice, if someone used spell defense. So since the title is "QUICK ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ABOUT PREPARATIONS (PP. 304–306, SR5)" with Counterspelling not being applicable against preparations on p. 294, I'll reiterate one more time:

You are wrong.

You're right, absolutely right. The Counter Spell skill does nothing to the enchanted arrow.

Because it is just a an arrow with some magic. I need to the Disenchant skill for that.

But guess what happens when the arrow is triggered?

Here's a hint!

Once triggered, the spell cannot be stopped unless it is dispelled or its duration ends

Didn't catch that?

Once triggered, the spell cannot be stopped unless it is dispelled or its duration ends

Curious how it says... The spell isn't it? Not The preparation. Well, that's because its not a preparation anymore, it is now a spell. And..

Once the prepared spell is triggered, it can be dispelled or
resisted like any other spell

Ah there is "Spell" again! Lordy me, what a coincidence! Its almost as if..

ALCHEMY
From mystic flamethrowers to preparing a six-demon bag, alchemy allows the magician to prepare objects that hold a spell to be released later.

It is! It is! You're putting a spell in a object that gets released later. Kinda like well.. forgive my dnd terms here.. but perhaps a scroll? Maybe a pokeball if you're into that. Or perhaps a battery.

In fact

A preparation sustains the magic for the spell through the lynchpin (p. 304, SR5).

Geewillikers. Seems the effect that comes out when the preparation is triggered sure ain't no preparation still. In fact, everything seems to point to it being a spell!

And guess what!

Just like any other spell, it can be resisted or dispelled, because its a spell now. Not a preparation.


I'll reiterate once again, Counterspell and Dispel are not two different things. Rather Dispel is half of the use of Counterspell. The other half is Spell Defense, which applies to resisting spells.

And while you cannot dispel the object itself, you can dispel or resist the spell it creates. Just like how you can't dispel another mage. But you can dispel the spells he created. Or use spell defense against them.

[Lucean]

Ok, so I understand the point you're making. It still doesn't make sense to claim that the triggered is not stoppable, which would be in line with p. 294 when not breaking it down step by step.

But the tone of your posting ... great job ...