[JustADude]

Somehow, from that, they got to this place where they obsess over not killing people.  I should stress that one member of the party doesn't really have the same qualms; the houngan managed to summon a Force 10 Guardian Spirit during the last mission, and selected Natural Weaponry as one of his optional powers.  He killed every single person he attacked on the first blow; when the other PCs found out, they (verbally) tore him a new one for going so far off-plan.

I still want to know how they got form a list including Burn Notice, Human Target, Collateral, The Transporter, and The Usual Suspects (just ones I've seen where I know, for sure, where the main characters are willing to kill if needed) to "never kill anyone".

Pass along my congratulations to the Houngan for actually acting like a real professional, would you?

[CanRay]

There's "No unnecessary casualties" and then there's Twist-Like "No Geeking".  I agree, how did they take the Tao of Twist? 

On the bright side, they're not making like Kane. 

[Zilfer]

Wait...  Your group actually has morals?  How the hell did that happen?

It's probably my own fault.  The initial pitch for the game went like this:

[spoiler]
Theme:   Professionalism
      The idea is to look at the demands of being a professional criminal, often asked to do morally repugnant things, and the consequences this has on your interpersonal relationships and the rest of your life.

Influences:
   TV:   Burn Notice
      Chuck
      Human Target
      Leverage
      Smith
      White Collar
   Film:   Collateral
      Domino
      Grosse Pointe Blank
      Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang
      Lucky Number Slevin
      Miami Vice
      Ronin
      Smokin’ Aces
      Strange Days
      The Transporter
      The Usual Suspects
      Way of the Gun

Concept:   I want to run a Shadowrun game heavily influenced by the films and TV shows above.  The idea is that cleverness is more important than brute force, or more simply: tact is more important than dakka.  I envisage that most people will not use weapons bigger than pistols with any regularity whatsoever.

I’m keen to use the rules to create the atmosphere of a crime-based TV show or fairly clever action film.  I love heist movies and so I’d like to make legwork and planning a big part of the game.  I’m also keen to emphasise that your characters are criminals but should probably not be sociopaths, unless that’s a feature: killing should not be an easy option and particularly visible acts of violence or murder will certainly be met with police investigation.  So each and every time you kill someone in the game should be a conscious decision that you’ve made.  It may sometimes be a necessary evil but it is certainly never a good thing or an easy out.

You will start play as a group of criminals (with the appropriate flaw) who are in transit between two prison facilities in Seattle, along with a number of other criminals.  You might just be starting your sentence, or on your way to your final parole hearing.  You might be innocent, or you might be proud of your crimes.  You might have been imprisoned for two months or twenty years.  All that matters is that your character is in the transfer vehicle when it’s attacked, and left behind after the guards are killed and the target of the extraction is removed.  Your characters should be the sort to work together and go into business as a shadowrunning team, as you don’t have any other options.

In that line of work, you can mostly expect not to get totally betrayed by your employer but you should be aware that you are likely being used, manipulated, lied to and kept in the dark at any given point.  Over time, I hope that the campaign will develop in such a way that there will be much international travel and involvement in many high-stakes activities that challenge your characters’ morals and capabilities, with the end result being lots of fun for everyone.
[/spoiler]

Somehow, from that, they got to this place where they obsess over not killing people.  I should stress that one member of the party doesn't really have the same qualms; the houngan managed to summon a Force 10 Guardian Spirit during the last mission, and selected Natural Weaponry as one of his optional powers.  He killed every single person he attacked on the first blow; when the other PCs found out, they (verbally) tore him a new one for going so far off-plan.

Wow, gave him that much crap for summoning a F10 Spirit. The man's brave as balls. Recently I was DMing and a mage basically outright killed himself summoning a F8 spirit, after taking about 3 drain from an overcasted spell earlier, it was the second one he was overcasting and thought he could easily get a few hits on his drain test with edge. I rolled 4 hits 8 drain and he had 10 HP. needed just 2 hits. <.< he got 1 and the spirit manifested, looked at him telling him it was reaally bad situation and the only chance was someone hitting this spirit good. Well they managed to hit the spirit for 11 Physical before it's turn came around again and then it tore up the mage and left. :/

Anyways, i believe in most of the movies/TV shows  you mentioned if something went off plan they mostly say something about it being done by someone stupid and then they move on, not a lot of focus on the mess up but rather focusing on what are we going to do now.

Also Professional's know when to kill, it's not their first option but you know where's the fun in the game if you don't get to let loose some of the time. xD

[Black]

I actually like the sound on this team.  Killing, unless neccessary, is unprofessional.  Leaving a trail of dead bodies attracts far more attention and thus the likelyhood of retribution.  Also, if you ever run against the same enemies and they remember you?  Stun rounds away, explosive rounds out, flash bangs away, frag grenades out.    Killing is just trouble most the time.

My team actually surprised me by focusing on stick n shock and stun bolts, but the lower body count does make sense, specially if you mix it up in public.  A bloody massacre at a train station attracts a lot more heat than a few goons shocked uncouncious. 

That said, the team has taken some wet work recently, but they did the precise action (which left no one dead) and then set in a go gang they hired to do the rest.  For them, its not about morals, its about profesionalism and not be associated to directly with anything they will attract attention.

[nakano]

Make it personal.  Nothing gets players "kill'em all and let *** sort em out" up like making it personal. 

• If they have a favorite bar, have the NPC be ultimately responsible for its closure/destruction etc
• Have him hurt favored NPCs, contacts etc.
• Have him responsible for destruction of their toys.
• If that fails, have the PCs confront the results of their not taking him out.  Have him order a purge of a rival meta gang, or kidnap friends and family for a bunraku parlor, or just generally be evil.
• Let them meet him and be exposed to the fact that he is deserving of what I like to call "retroactive birth control."  Give them reasons to want him dead, and if they don't bite, give them more.  Shadowrun is a game  that is really really hard not to kill in, at least one in a while.  And if they have the negative quality of pacifist, make'em bleed for it.

Just  my 0.02$

[Zilfer]

Make it personal.  Nothing gets players "kill'em all and let *** sort em out" up like making it personal. 

• If they have a favorite bar, have the NPC be ultimately responsible for its closure/destruction etc
• Have him hurt favored NPCs, contacts etc.
• Have him responsible for destruction of their toys.
• If that fails, have the PCs confront the results of their not taking him out.  Have him order a purge of a rival meta gang, or kidnap friends and family for a bunraku parlor, or just generally be evil.
• Let them meet him and be exposed to the fact that he is deserving of what I like to call "retroactive birth control."  Give them reasons to want him dead, and if they don't bite, give them more.  Shadowrun is a game  that is really really hard not to kill in, at least one in a while.  And if they have the negative quality of pacifist, make'em bleed for it.

Just  my 0.02$

You would be an interesting DM to play under. +1 for your sadisticness.

[Mason]

Hardened armor is a critter power, and it's effect is simply any damage equal to or under the level of the Hardened armor value before damage calculation is deflected without doing anything whatsoever. Also, hardened armor acts as standard armor for tests and for converting damage, adding to worn armor.

[Mirikon]

Meaning that a Force 5 Flesh form Insect Spirit with a lined coat would reduce any damage taken by 10, before rolling to resist. And then they'd roll 16B/14I armor + Body to resist the remainder.

[Zilfer]

Meaning that a Force 5 Flesh form Insect Spirit with a lined coat would reduce any damage taken by 10, before rolling to resist. And then they'd roll 16B/14I armor + Body to resist the remainder.

o.O

That is different than Immunity to natural weapons right?

A F5 Water spirit for example you need to breach 10 to damage it but it still has to resist that amount of damage just with 10 extra armor if it suceeded the 10 damage. Say (11 DV)?

[Mason]

No. Hardened armor does NOT reduce the damage taken directly*. It adds it's Rating to worn armor to determine effects, plus COMPLETELY negates all damage from attacks which are equal to or less than it's Rating.

Immunity to Normal weapons is simply Hardened Armor twice, but has no effect against nonmagical attacks.

*Personally, I think it should, but it does not.

EDIT: Accuracy, spelling.

[Crash_00]

To be honest, I've played in both types of groups. I've played in groups where everyone died that saw us (and the bodies were taken, gotta love organlegger contacts), and I've played in groups where if someone died it was completely accidental.

I usually push it up to Professionalism, but I can see where they are coming from with some of the shows you mentioned. Chuck, Human Target, Leverage, White Collar, these are all shows about Good Guys and for the most part they don't kill people. Sure in Human Target Guerrero was the odd man out, but the rest really didn't like to kill people. I think you're players seem to have taken on the "We're the good guys hitting the corporations, and we won't sink to their level" vibe that was really strong in earlier editions of the game.

I haven't actually run Ghost Cartels, so I don't remember the job mentioned off the top of my head, but if they are insistent on sticking to their morals, don't try to break it. Just take it in stride, let it bite them in the ass (decisions always come back to bite us in the ass in SR), and possibly let them make a counter-offer.

I remember one particular run with The Guys (before they were renamed The Guys You Call When Everyone Else is Busy) were offered a job to ice a local Yakuza jazz dealer that was selling almost exclusively to school kids in the area. We turned it down, but we offered to leave him rotting in a Siberian Prison for 80% of the pay. A few calls to contacts, a bribed guard, and some minor fingerprint reconstruction and this guy was out of the picture.

[Zilfer]

To be honest, I've played in both types of groups. I've played in groups where everyone died that saw us (and the bodies were taken, gotta love organlegger contacts), and I've played in groups where if someone died it was completely accidental.

I usually push it up to Professionalism, but I can see where they are coming from with some of the shows you mentioned. Chuck, Human Target, Leverage, White Collar, these are all shows about Good Guys and for the most part they don't kill people. Sure in Human Target Guerrero was the odd man out, but the rest really didn't like to kill people. I think you're players seem to have taken on the "We're the good guys hitting the corporations, and we won't sink to their level" vibe that was really strong in earlier editions of the game.

I haven't actually run Ghost Cartels, so I don't remember the job mentioned off the top of my head, but if they are insistent on sticking to their morals, don't try to break it. Just take it in stride, let it bite them in the ass (decisions always come back to bite us in the ass in SR), and possibly let them make a counter-offer.

I remember one particular run with The Guys (before they were renamed The Guys You Call When Everyone Else is Busy) were offered a job to ice a local Yakuza jazz dealer that was selling almost exclusively to school kids in the area. We turned it down, but we offered to leave him rotting in a Siberian Prison for 80% of the pay. A few calls to contacts, a bribed guard, and some minor fingerprint reconstruction and this guy was out of the picture.

Wow you know some real movers and shakers.... o.O

[Crash_00]

There are two rules to a good Shadowrun game I've found.
A.) It works best if the guy that usually comes up with the crazy plans is the GM. Things get derailed a lot less and usually the same guy can think on the fly to come up with challenges for everyone else's crazy plans.

B.) Anything the GM can imagine and plan for can, and most likely will be, one upped by the players.

I miss SR3. Contacts were so much cheaper back then.

[nakano]

You would be an interesting DM to play under. +1 for your sadisticness.

                                                                Thanks much for the kind words.  My thoughts, having run SR for a long time, are that while the world is really deadly, its more fun for all involved to minimize the accidental PC deaths.  Every once in a while sure, but as a general rule deaths in my games are earned rather then bad luck.  I prefer to make the characters hurt and see where that takes the story.  Of course that really comes from the fact that I run Campaigns rather then just run after run.   heh!

[Zilfer]

There are two rules to a good Shadowrun game I've found.
A.) It works best if the guy that usually comes up with the crazy plans is the GM. Things get derailed a lot less and usually the same guy can think on the fly to come up with challenges for everyone else's crazy plans.

B.) Anything the GM can imagine and plan for can, and most likely will be, one upped by the players.

I miss SR3. Contacts were so much cheaper back then.

Recently i've been thinking of having them go on a Run with an NPC to kind of offer suggestions and move things along. We are still quite new but sometimes I think they get "stuck" on what they can do. Bribery for example almost never comes up, but I never can judge what amount is a good bribe anyways so it might be a good thing.