[RHat]

Spirits don't have edge anymore.

Summoned and bound spirits don’t have their own Edge pools (or if they do, they don’t use them). However, you can spend your own Edge pool on your summoned spirits’ tests if you like.

Read a little bit more closely:  Once summoned or bound, they either do not have or do not use Edge.  That does not preclude them from using it outside of those two conditions.

[Beaumis]

That's a valid assumption but an assumption nonetheless.

The OP is a new GM who is still learning. A reading like that, while possible semantically, kind of sets a precedence for his players. By RAW, there is no rule that gives or advises a GM to use extra dice to oppose the binding test, except for the force. Reading the above state in that sense is basically the same as saying "because". That's not the way a new GM should behave unless he wants his players to run rampant with "It doesn't say I can't" readings.

[RHat]

That's a valid assumption but an assumption nonetheless.

The OP is a new GM who is still learning. A reading like that, while possible semantically, kind of sets a precedence for his players. By RAW, there is no rule that gives or advises a GM to use extra dice to oppose the binding test, except for the force. Reading the above state in that sense is basically the same as saying "because". That's not the way a new GM should behave unless he wants his players to run rampant with "It doesn't say I can't" readings.

True, but it is within the rules and conventional wisdom around here - unfortunately, people sometimes forget that being conventional wisdom here doesn't always mean people come into the conversation knowing it.

[ZeConster]

By RAW, spirits have Edge equal to half their Force. And if 4th edition is any indication, the magic book will probably include extra rules on spirits.

[Michael Chandra]

Summoned and Bound Spirits cannot access their own Edge, yes, which is also how it was in SR4. However, when they're still being Summoned, they still have Edge and can use it to resist summoning, which is also how it was in SR4.

I should note that the math shows that Edge vs Oversummoning is the only real factor balancing it out. As for the rule not being there, it wasn't there in SR4a either, it was a rule (not optional, simply a rule) from a supplement. Using the trick in advance to help balance things is a perfectly-legal GM tool. The no-Edge for Spirits is merely to avoid players arguing that the Spirit should use Edge to execute the task the player gave it.

[Beaumis]

I should note that the math shows that Edge vs Oversummoning is the only real factor balancing it out. As for the rule not being there, it wasn't there in SR4a either, it was a rule (not optional, simply a rule) from a supplement. Using the trick in advance to help balance things is a perfectly-legal GM tool. The no-Edge for Spirits is merely to avoid players arguing that the Spirit should use Edge to execute the task the player gave it.

They have edge while being summoned, that much is uncontested, but why would a spirit use it? I mean, spirits like being in the world and they have no clue who is summoning them or to what purpose. Resisting binding would make sense in the game-world, but summoning? Unless a spirit is summoned by his true name, which spells slavery in capital letters, I don't see a real reason why a spirit would resist.

Plus, isn't being lopsided in favor of the summoner kind of the point of summoning? The magician is kinda supposed to get hits to get services. The more powerful the spirit, the less likely he is to get more than one service. I mean, the force alone would cancel his magic attribute and eat into his summoning skill.

I'm all for preventing imbalances, but basically telling the player "I'm going to alter your assumptions about the game by introducing another element that gives your opponent an edge over you" is kind of a heavy-handed way to do it. At that point, you might as well fudge the dice.

In that sense, I'd like to point out a GM's tool that has been neglected here so far: (Only applies to bound spirits)

If the gamemaster chooses, a spirit that has been set on a particularly long and/or undignified task may struggle against their binding, which imposes a –1 penalty to all tests as the magician works to compel the spirit to do his bidding, like a dog on a leash (an analogy, by the way, that would not make many spirits happy). At any point, the magician can take a Complex Action to try to bring the spirit to heel through an Opposed  Summoning + Magic vs. spirit’s Force + Willpower Test.If the magician ties the spirit or get more hits, the spirit is calmed down and performs their service without further penalties for the summoner.

From a lore perspective, I can easily see a powerful spirit (aka one that exceeds the magic rating of the summoner) resenting being ordered around. A weak summoner is likely to fail that test, given that he's basically facing double the spirits force. It's not a large penalty, but it sticks around unless he expends a complex action.

As far as unbound spirits go, spirits are compelled to perform their services but how they go about this is entirely up to them. There is no rule compelling an oversummoned spirit to fight reckless or inefficient. If a spirit is so powerful that he cannot be harmed by the enemy, its entirely reasonable to assume that he feel that he can also take his time and enjoy it. What I'm saying is basically, spirits think different from people and they have their own motivations and understanding of things. A powerful spirit with mental stats way beyond its summoner can easily force his master to think their orders through *very* carefully if he wants to. He can also quite easily play dumb and force his master to expend more services than he intended to by giving new orders.

[All4BigGuns]

I should note that the math shows that Edge vs Oversummoning is the only real factor balancing it out. As for the rule not being there, it wasn't there in SR4a either, it was a rule (not optional, simply a rule) from a supplement. Using the trick in advance to help balance things is a perfectly-legal GM tool. The no-Edge for Spirits is merely to avoid players arguing that the Spirit should use Edge to execute the task the player gave it.

They have edge while being summoned, that much is uncontested, but why would a spirit use it? I mean, spirits like being in the world and they have no clue who is summoning them or to what purpose. Resisting binding would make sense in the game-world, but summoning? Unless a spirit is summoned by his true name, which spells slavery in capital letters, I don't see a real reason why a spirit would resist.

Plus, isn't being lopsided in favor of the summoner kind of the point of summoning? The magician is kinda supposed to get hits to get services. The more powerful the spirit, the less likely he is to get more than one service. I mean, the force alone would cancel his magic attribute and eat into his summoning skill.

I'm all for preventing imbalances, but basically telling the player "I'm going to alter your assumptions about the game by introducing another element that gives your opponent an edge over you" is kind of a heavy-handed way to do it. At that point, you might as well fudge the dice.

People just completely ignore that the spirit does want to be in the world and completely blow out of proportion that the spirit dislikes being bound.

[RHat]

They have edge while being summoned, that much is uncontested, but why would a spirit use it? I mean, spirits like being in the world and they have no clue who is summoning them or to what purpose.

Actually, they do know who is summoning them, and they know all about how the summoner has treated spirits in the past.  If the summoner is some blend of weaker than them (lower magic), undeserving, and historically cruel to spirits, they would absolutely resist to their utmost.  Wanting to be in the world can be outweighed by not wanting to be subjected to the will of that summoner - especially since, until they go free, being summoned is simply the neccessary evil that accompanies being in the world.

[All4BigGuns]

They have edge while being summoned, that much is uncontested, but why would a spirit use it? I mean, spirits like being in the world and they have no clue who is summoning them or to what purpose.

Actually, they do know who is summoning them, and they know all about how the summoner has treated spirits in the past.  If the summoner is some blend of weaker than them (lower magic), undeserving, and historically cruel to spirits, they would absolutely resist to their utmost.  Wanting to be in the world can be outweighed by not wanting to be subjected to the will of that summoner - especially since, until they go free, being summoned is simply the neccessary evil that accompanies being in the world.

But that doesn't condone the always part even with "over summoning". If the summoner hasn't been particularly 'bad' (a more 'neutral' disposition) or has been particularly 'good' even the ones that are higher Force would probably "go with the flow" just to be in the world.

[RHat]

They have edge while being summoned, that much is uncontested, but why would a spirit use it? I mean, spirits like being in the world and they have no clue who is summoning them or to what purpose.

Actually, they do know who is summoning them, and they know all about how the summoner has treated spirits in the past.  If the summoner is some blend of weaker than them (lower magic), undeserving, and historically cruel to spirits, they would absolutely resist to their utmost.  Wanting to be in the world can be outweighed by not wanting to be subjected to the will of that summoner - especially since, until they go free, being summoned is simply the neccessary evil that accompanies being in the world.

But that doesn't condone the always part even with "over summoning". If the summoner hasn't been particularly 'bad' (a more 'neutral' disposition) or has been particularly 'good' even the ones that are higher Force would probably "go with the flow" just to be in the world.

I don't agree with the always part, but I'll point out that the other parts of the blend bring in other elements of a counter-balance - the limitations on conduct and how you use spirits would have an impact; for example, a character who tended to throw spirits into the line of fire as bullet sponges would find themselves greatly disliked by spirits, and may well face Edge against summoning SOONER, but a character who treats spirits in a different and far more respectful manner might find they don't face it at all.

At least, that's my approach, and it does what I'm looking for (balances spirits and makes how you interact with your spirits MATTER).  Others are looking for a simple, hard, and fast rule that sufficiently balances things out; Edge against all oversummoning does what they're looking for.

[All4BigGuns]

I don't agree with the always part, but I'll point out that the other parts of the blend bring in other elements of a counter-balance - the limitations on conduct and how you use spirits would have an impact; for example, a character who tended to throw spirits into the line of fire as bullet sponges would find themselves greatly disliked by spirits, and may well face Edge against summoning SOONER, but a character who treats spirits in a different and far more respectful manner might find they don't face it at all.

At least, that's my approach, and it does what I'm looking for (balances spirits and makes how you interact with your spirits MATTER).  Others are looking for a simple, hard, and fast rule that sufficiently balances things out; Edge against all oversummoning does what they're looking for.

Beaumis is entirely correct that it is simply too heavy-handed.

If the player knows that they may be facing the Edge use anyway, they'll be more likely to do those actions that could be considered 'abusing' the spirit. After all, why bother having the character "treat it well" if they're already resisting with Edge?

If people would just enforce that the spirits are NPCs rather than 'pets', I suspect that any of the supposed 'problems' would be solved right there. Some can be trusted to control the spirit themselves (I know since one is in my group), but for the most part they should be controlled by the GM. If the GM can't overcome temptation to 'water down' what the spirit would do for "greater challenge" or to exploit his knowledge of the opposition, then he shouldn't be the GM.

[Beaumis]

Actually, they do know who is summoning them, and they know all about how the summoner has treated spirits in the past.

Care to cite a source for that, please? I am not aware of such a rule or flavortext apart from P. 300 saying they tend to appear in a way appropriate to the summoner's tradition.

[All4BigGuns]

Actually, they do know who is summoning them, and they know all about how the summoner has treated spirits in the past.

Care to cite a source for that, please? I am not aware of such a rule or flavortext apart from P. 300 saying they tend to appear in a way appropriate to the summoner's tradition.

Closest I see is somewhat after what you pointed out where it talks about them "struggling against the bonds" over a particularly distasteful task (which by the way would be after summoning is completed).

[RHat]

I don't agree with the always part, but I'll point out that the other parts of the blend bring in other elements of a counter-balance - the limitations on conduct and how you use spirits would have an impact; for example, a character who tended to throw spirits into the line of fire as bullet sponges would find themselves greatly disliked by spirits, and may well face Edge against summoning SOONER, but a character who treats spirits in a different and far more respectful manner might find they don't face it at all.

At least, that's my approach, and it does what I'm looking for (balances spirits and makes how you interact with your spirits MATTER).  Others are looking for a simple, hard, and fast rule that sufficiently balances things out; Edge against all oversummoning does what they're looking for.

Beaumis is entirely correct that it is simply too heavy-handed.

If the player knows that they may be facing the Edge use anyway, they'll be more likely to do those actions that could be considered 'abusing' the spirit. After all, why bother having the character "treat it well" if they're already resisting with Edge?

The player wouldn't be facing that if they hadn't treated spirits poorly in the first place.  This is a matter of consequences more than anything else.

Beaumis:  Looking for specific lines, 99% certain I've seen explicit references in SR5.  Got the following so far from the Spell Binding service:

This is very painful for spirits and
generally considered to be abusive—if you use this don’t
forget that word gets around in the spirit world.

[All4BigGuns]

I don't agree with the always part, but I'll point out that the other parts of the blend bring in other elements of a counter-balance - the limitations on conduct and how you use spirits would have an impact; for example, a character who tended to throw spirits into the line of fire as bullet sponges would find themselves greatly disliked by spirits, and may well face Edge against summoning SOONER, but a character who treats spirits in a different and far more respectful manner might find they don't face it at all.

At least, that's my approach, and it does what I'm looking for (balances spirits and makes how you interact with your spirits MATTER).  Others are looking for a simple, hard, and fast rule that sufficiently balances things out; Edge against all oversummoning does what they're looking for.

Beaumis is entirely correct that it is simply too heavy-handed.

If the player knows that they may be facing the Edge use anyway, they'll be more likely to do those actions that could be considered 'abusing' the spirit. After all, why bother having the character "treat it well" if they're already resisting with Edge?

The player wouldn't be facing that if they hadn't treated spirits poorly in the first place.  This is a matter of consequences more than anything else.

You miss the entire point. Since any ruling of that nature should be put out there plainly at the start of the game, if the player knows he'll be facing that Edge use from the outset, he may not see as much point in not "treating them poorly".

He'll be more likely to have the following attitude:
"Well, since they'll be resisting with Edge anyway, it doesn't matter how my character 'treats them'. Might as well treat 'em like tools."