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[S6E] Some TM questions

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Sugarpink

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« on: <09-29-22/0446:59> »
Hi!

We recently started gaming with a Technomancer and have to say, there are some things that left us scratching our heads:

1) Diffuse [Matrix Attribute] - The whole TM section does not list any info on what is a viable target. So, it makes sense to me that you can diffuse a Device/Persona. But can you use this power also on Hosts? At least I can't find any reference as to hosts being immune to this, but it seems weird because I am sure this wasn't possible in 5E.

2) Pulse Storm is listed as Instant. But how long does the noise last? One Turn? Forever? Should it actually be Sustained instead of Instant...?

Thanks for answers in advance <3

Banshee

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« Reply #1 on: <09-29-22/0828:08> »
1) anything with a matrix attribute is a viable target
2) until the end of the encounter or the target does something to mitigate it
« Last Edit: <10-01-22/0951:50> by Banshee »
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Sugarpink

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« Reply #2 on: <10-04-22/0309:07> »
Thanks for the reply!

I have one more question. If you use Pulse Storm multiple times on the same target, does the noise keep increasing, or does only the highest value apply?

Thanks in Advance :)

Hobbes

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« Reply #3 on: <10-04-22/0938:32> »
The general rule in Shadowrun is that the highest modifier from a specific source applies.  Unless a specific item, power, ability, whatever, says otherwise it does not stack with repeated applications. 

tl;dr, take the highest. 

You can stack Pulse Storm with a Jammer or other sources of Noise. 

Dreamwalker

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« Reply #4 on: <10-05-22/1447:09> »
1) anything with a matrix attribute is a viable target

Thanks for the input. I'd like to get some further clarity on this.

The CRB states that a hosts attributes are shared by its IC programs (p. 185, City Edition Seattle). So, when a diffusion targeted at a host reduces an attribute, are all the hosts IC programs effected? Does that equally apply to IC already running and new IC being launched while the diffusion is sustained?

Banshee

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« Reply #5 on: <10-06-22/0827:26> »
1) anything with a matrix attribute is a viable target

Thanks for the input. I'd like to get some further clarity on this.

The CRB states that a hosts attributes are shared by its IC programs (p. 185, City Edition Seattle). So, when a diffusion targeted at a host reduces an attribute, are all the hosts IC programs effected? Does that equally apply to IC already running and new IC being launched while the diffusion is sustained?

Yes, diffusing a host will weaken IC ... both active and inactive
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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« Reply #6 on: <10-07-22/0254:11> »
Can you help me with some questions regarding AR hacking, Skinlink, Auralink and Resonance Wires?

Lets assume the technomancer wants to silently swtich off a camera, which he can see in real world and thus in AR. That camera is in the security host of a nested host structure. The security host can only be entered from the public host by icons with user access level.
Is my understanding correct?
  • He could enter the public host, use probe & backdoor entry to gain user access, then move to the security host, use another probe & backdoor entry to get user access in that host and then use control device matrix action on the camera. Takes 2 min.
  • He could use Skinlink or Auralink to get direct access to the device. This means he "pops up" with guest access directly in the security host. He still needs to use probe & backdoor entry to get user access level before he can use control device. Benefit: 1min time saved
  • He could use Puppeteer complex form to directly use controll device, without need to get host access levels first. Benefit: 2min time saved. Disadvantage: Fade 5.
  • He could use Resonance Wires complex form to get direct access to the device. This means he "pops up" with guest access level directly in the security host. He still needs to use probe & backdoor entry to get user access level before he can use control device. Benefit: 1min time saved. Disadvantage: Fade 2, Electronics + Resonance (2) test (both should be super easy for every competent technomancer)

If my understanding above is correct, that leads to a few questions:
  • What is the benefit of Skinlink or Auralink echo (cost 23 Karma) versus Resonance Wires complex form (cost 5 Karma)? All give you the same direct access to a device. The Resonance Wires need one more action and are sustained, but that can easily be compensated by quality "Focussed concentration".
  • Why use Skinlink, Auralink or Resonance Wires at all, when Puppeteer (or Editor) complex forms can get the same result faster?
  • Assuming you have established a direct connection using Skinlink, Auralink or Resonance Wires, does that only allow you to manipulate that one device? Or do you really "pop up" in the that host, to which the device is slaved, and can continue hacking from there? Lets assume the technomancer above uses Resonance Wires on the camera and switches it off. Is he now in the security host, so he could use matrix perception to identify the building rigger network and then use jump into rigged device to control all the doors?

Thank you for your comments.

Banshee

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« Reply #7 on: <10-07-22/0902:22> »
Can you help me with some questions regarding AR hacking, Skinlink, Auralink and Resonance Wires?

Lets assume the technomancer wants to silently swtich off a camera, which he can see in real world and thus in AR. That camera is in the security host of a nested host structure. The security host can only be entered from the public host by icons with user access level.
Is my understanding correct?
  • He could enter the public host, use probe & backdoor entry to gain user access, then move to the security host, use another probe & backdoor entry to get user access in that host and then use control device matrix action on the camera. Takes 2 min.
  • He could use Skinlink or Auralink to get direct access to the device. This means he "pops up" with guest access directly in the security host. He still needs to use probe & backdoor entry to get user access level before he can use control device. Benefit: 1min time saved
  • He could use Puppeteer complex form to directly use controll device, without need to get host access levels first. Benefit: 2min time saved. Disadvantage: Fade 5.
  • He could use Resonance Wires complex form to get direct access to the device. This means he "pops up" with guest access level directly in the security host. He still needs to use probe & backdoor entry to get user access level before he can use control device. Benefit: 1min time saved. Disadvantage: Fade 2, Electronics + Resonance (2) test (both should be super easy for every competent technomancer)

If my understanding above is correct, that leads to a few questions:
  • What is the benefit of Skinlink or Auralink echo (cost 23 Karma) versus Resonance Wires complex form (cost 5 Karma)? All give you the same direct access to a device. The Resonance Wires need one more action and are sustained, but that can easily be compensated by quality "Focussed concentration".
  • Why use Skinlink, Auralink or Resonance Wires at all, when Puppeteer (or Editor) complex forms can get the same result faster?
  • Assuming you have established a direct connection using Skinlink, Auralink or Resonance Wires, does that only allow you to manipulate that one device? Or do you really "pop up" in the that host, to which the device is slaved, and can continue hacking from there? Lets assume the technomancer above uses Resonance Wires on the camera and switches it off. Is he now in the security host, so he could use matrix perception to identify the building rigger network and then use jump into rigged device to control all the doors?

Thank you for your comments.

First lets address your assumptions...
1. yes, but you also have the Brute Force available if you wanted to go fast and loud
2. yes
3. Almost ... Puppeteer lets you bypass getting hacked access levels but you still need to connect to it first. So you could use Skinlink, Auralink, or Resonance Wires to get the connection then Puppeteer to control it and never worry about hacking access. Puppeteer would work as you described on a device that is broadcasting a public wireless signal, but I am assuming the security camera is not in this case, otherwise it would be pointless to have it nested in a security host.
4. yes

now your questions ...
1. Skinlink and Auralink do not require any rolls, it's automatic as long as you can either touch it (Skinlink) or just get within a few meters of it (Auralink). Is the karma value balanced, in my opinion not really but I didn't write Resonance Wires, but you are paying the extra karma for that benefit of not making a roll to establish a direct connection.
2. As I stated above, Puppeteer (and Editor), still needs a connection first it only allows you to bypass access levels
3. yes you connect to the security host itself and not just the device, the sole intent of establishing a direct connection on a secure device was to promote a hacker to use infiltration and/or teamwork to bypass exterior security. You still need to hack it to gain access levels if you want/need them, but you get to bypass going through the layered host architecture to do it.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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« Reply #8 on: <10-07-22/1255:48> »
Thank you for the reply.

Understand the point on Skinlink, Auralink and Resonance Wires. In addition Resonance Wires is sustained, meaning -2 dice on everything or taking up a valuable slot of focussed concentration quality.

On 3. and the Puppeteer...

A) Assume a device, which is not part of a host or PAN, lets say a trideo projector waiting for signal. I could directly use Puppeteer on that, as I can simply connect via AR matrix?
B) Assume a device, which is part of a public host, which can be entered from the matrix with guest access level. I could use a minor action to enter that host in AR and then use Puppeteer on the device?
C) Assume a device, which is part of a PAN, which does not allow any actions with guest access level. Can I still use a minor action to enter than PAN in AR and then use Puppeteer on the device?
D) Assume a device, which is part of a nested host, where the host of the device cannot be reached directly from the matrix. In that case, I first have to enter the public host, then work my way into the nested host (via Brute Force or Probe/Backdoor) until I have arrived in that host, then use Puppeteer. Benefit of Puppeteer could be that I have used Brute Force to achieve guest access level and want to avoid doing that again to get to admin, so I use Puppeteer to control some device that needs admin access.

If ABCD are true, then the only situation where Skinlink (or similar) is better for device control than Puppeteer is a nested host.

Usage example: Rigger approaches a red traffic light. Technomancer want to switch that to green (and switch crossing directions to red, to avoid accidents). The traffic light is part of the gridguide guide host. But that is not nested. So Technomancer sees the gridguide host in AR, uses a minor action to enter the gridguide host as guest, then uses Puppeteer on the traffic light and leaves host again?

Banshee

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« Reply #9 on: <10-07-22/1407:34> »
Thank you for the reply.

Understand the point on Skinlink, Auralink and Resonance Wires. In addition Resonance Wires is sustained, meaning -2 dice on everything or taking up a valuable slot of focussed concentration quality.

On 3. and the Puppeteer...

A) Assume a device, which is not part of a host or PAN, lets say a trideo projector waiting for signal. I could directly use Puppeteer on that, as I can simply connect via AR matrix?
B) Assume a device, which is part of a public host, which can be entered from the matrix with guest access level. I could use a minor action to enter that host in AR and then use Puppeteer on the device?
C) Assume a device, which is part of a PAN, which does not allow any actions with guest access level. Can I still use a minor action to enter than PAN in AR and then use Puppeteer on the device?
D) Assume a device, which is part of a nested host, where the host of the device cannot be reached directly from the matrix. In that case, I first have to enter the public host, then work my way into the nested host (via Brute Force or Probe/Backdoor) until I have arrived in that host, then use Puppeteer. Benefit of Puppeteer could be that I have used Brute Force to achieve guest access level and want to avoid doing that again to get to admin, so I use Puppeteer to control some device that needs admin access.

If ABCD are true, then the only situation where Skinlink (or similar) is better for device control than Puppeteer is a nested host.

Usage example: Rigger approaches a red traffic light. Technomancer want to switch that to green (and switch crossing directions to red, to avoid accidents). The traffic light is part of the gridguide guide host. But that is not nested. So Technomancer sees the gridguide host in AR, uses a minor action to enter the gridguide host as guest, then uses Puppeteer on the traffic light and leaves host again?

ok, it seems you're still confusing access and connection. The difference is especially important when dealing with devices connected to a host. Unconnected devices are either wireless on or off, if on nothing special is required to connect, if wireless off it requires a direct connection. Devices connected to a simple PAN just need to be detectable, by default a PAN has to be wireless on, but can run silent which means you need to make a matrix perception check to find their signal, then you can use puppeteer. A host though can conceal devices behind it horizon and choose to either have it be public or private (I honestly forget the exact terms we use in the books), if the device is one that needs to interact with other devices or matrix users that are outside of the host then it needs to be broadcasting publicly and vulnerable to puppeteer. If the device only needs to communicate with its host or limited authorized users it is then usually set to private and hidden behind the host barrier (usually a nested security host), in this case then you need to either establish a direct connection or enter the host, entering the host requires hacking access 99.99% of the the time, outsider access (what I am guessing you are referring to by saying guest) is only a thing on public hosts

To use Puppeteer you need to be able to connect to the device, this means it has to be wirelessly broadcasting or you need to establish a direct connection to it. No access is required.

so for your example ... is the traffic light publicly broadcasting a wireless signal ... if the answer is yes then target it with puppeteer simple as that. Is the light protected by the gridguide host and NOT broadcasting because it is behind the Host horizon and only needs to communicate with it's own host? THEN you will need to either gain access to the network or establish a direct connection before using puppeteer. Gridguide is covered in Double Clutch I think and not one of my sections, but should have limited public facing devices that can be hacked without having access.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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« Reply #10 on: <10-08-22/1257:54> »
Thanks again for the detailed explanation!

With "Guest" I mean user access level "Outsider". The German translation is "Gast", which translates to english as "Guest" :-)
Interesting the connotation is slightly different, as "Guest" kind of implies that you have entered the host already (at Guest access level) and then start probing it, whereas "Outsider" implies that you are not entering the host, but are probing it from outside and then only enter it once you have achieved admin access level.

So...
  • The camera which is connected to the security host is likely not broadcasting, so Puppeteer can not directly be used. Hacker needs to establish a connection first, via Skinlink, Auralink, Resonance Wires, datatap or similar.
  • The maglock, which is waiting for RFID or SIN signals to open the door, has to be broadcasting to do its job, so can be directly affected by Puppeteer.
  • The maglock with cardreader, keypad or biometric is not broadcasting, so needs Skinlink etc again.

On the trafficlight, my guess would be
  • In AAA security area, where any vehicle, which is not controlled by gruid-guide is causing automatic alarm, the traffic lights are not broadcasting, as all vehicles are connected to grid-guide and get the relevant info that way. The main purpose of traffic lights in that area likely is for pedestrians.
  • In low security areas, where vehicles are driven in a mix of manually, autopilot or grid-guide, the traffic light is probably broadcasting the seconds to next color switch, thus can be directly affected by Puppeteer.

Xenon

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« Reply #11 on: <10-08-22/1529:03> »
probing it from outside and then only enter it once you have achieved admin access level.
As a hacker you normally have two ways to enter a host.

Either you Brute Force yourself hacked User Access (which is loud but quick) and then use that to Enter the Host through the main gate or you Probe the Host and then Enter the Host via a sneaky Backdoor (which is silent but take more time).

A nested Host network typically require that you first hack the outer layer of the onion before you can start to work on the inner layers. But this is where a Direct Connection comes in. If you manage to find a device that is part of a inner Host layer you can use that device as an access point straight into the inner Host layer, this let you hack (brute force or probe + backdoor entry) the inner host layer without first hacking the outer layers. Once you hacked (gained User or Admin access) on the inner network you will have User (or Admin) access on all devices that is part of that network, not only the device you got a Direct Connection to. Direct Connection also let you "see" the specific device you have a Direct Connection to even if it is hidden inside the host network and even if you have not yet gained Access on the network. This is useful in that you can take Outside action against it (like Spoof Command or Data Spike, but also Resonance actions such as Puppeteer).


The camera which is connected to the security host is likely not broadcasting, so Puppeteer can not directly be used. Hacker needs to establish a connection first, via Skinlink, Auralink, Resonance Wires, datatap or similar.
Or hack the Host (Brute Force and Enter Host or Probe and Backdoor Enter Host).


the traffic lights are not broadcasting, as all vehicles are connected to grid-guide and get the relevant info that way. The main purpose of traffic lights in that area likely is for pedestrians.
I could for sure also see how traffic lights might be on the public facing side of the Host (so that pedestrians and others can actually see the augmented reality objects showing if it is OK to cross or not). Otherwise you would have to use actual lights like they did back in 2022 :-/

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YJg02ivYzSs/sddefault.jpg
« Last Edit: <10-08-22/1558:31> by Xenon »

Xenon

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« Reply #12 on: <10-09-22/0454:55> »
As how I understand the Matrix in SR6 to work (please correct me if I made any wrong assumptions here);



Stand-alone devices


Stand-alone devices when hacking remotely (no Direct Connection) and before you have access

You can take Outsider actions (including Spoof Command and Brute Force etc) as well as threading complex forms (such as Puppeteer), but only if the device is wireless enabled. Note that, unlike previous edition, in this edition a vast majority of all wireless enabled devices are typically considered to be part of a network (not stand-alone).


Stand-alone devices when hacking remotely (no Direct Connection) after you gained access:

You can take any Matrix Actions up to and including your current Access level as well as threading complex forms (such as Puppeteer) against the specific device as long as it is wireless enabled.


Stand-alone device that you have a Direct Connection to but before you have access:

You can take Outsider actions as well as threading complex forms (such as Puppeteer) against the specific device no matter if the specific device is off-line (the more common scenario when it comes to stand-alone devices in this edition) or wireless enabled.


Stand-alone device that you have a Direct Connection to after you gained access:

You can take any Matrix Actions up to and including your current Access level as well as threading complex forms (such as Puppeteer) against the specific device no matter if the specific device is off-line or wireless enabled.



PANs


Devices that are part of a PAN when hacking remotely (no Direct Connection) and before you have access:

You can take Outsider actions (such as Data Spike or Spoof Command) as well as threading complex forms (such as Puppeteer) against specific devices, but only if the specific device is wireless enabled. Hacking (Brute Force or Probe + Backdoor Entry) will give you access to the entire PAN (including devices that are connected to the PAN via wires).


Devices that are part of a PAN when hacking remotely (no Direct Connection) after you gained access to the PAN:

You can take any Matrix Actions up to and including your current Access level as well as threading complex forms (such as Puppeteer) against any device within the entire PAN (no matter if they are connected to the PAN via wire or via wireless connection).


Device that you have a Direct Connection to when the specific device is part of a PAN but before you have access:

You can take Outsider actions against the specific device (such as Data Spike or Spoof Command) as well as threading complex forms (such as Puppeteer) no matter if the specific device is connected to the PAN via a wire or wireless connection. Hacking (Brute Force or Probe + Backdoor Entry) the PAN will give you access to the entire PAN (including devices that are connected to the PAN via wires).


Device that you have a Direct Connection to when the specific device is part of a PAN after you gained access to the PAN:

You can take any Matrix Actions up to and including your current Access level as well as threading complex forms (such as Puppeteer) against any device within the entire PAN (no matter if they are connected to the PAN via wire or via wireless connection).



Hosts


Devices that are part of a Host when hacking remotely (no Direct Connection) and before you have access:

You can take Outsider actions (such as Data Spike or Spoof Command) as well as threading complex forms (such as Puppeteer) against specific devices, but only if the specific device is wireless enabled and directly facing the Matrix (not hidden inside the Host). Hacking (Brute Force or Probe + Backdoor Entry) give you access to the Host (including devices that are connected to the Host via wires and devices that are hidden inside the Host).

If the Host is not directly facing the Matrix (is hidden inside a layered network of hosts and devices that are part of the Host are all hidden inside the Host) then you typically first need to gain access to and enter hosts in the outer layers of the Host network, or establish a Direct Connection.


Devices that are part of a Host when hacking remotely (no Direct Connection) but after you gained access / entered the Host:

You can take any Matrix Actions up to and including your current Access level as well as threading complex forms (such as Puppeteer) against any device within the Host (no matter if they are connected via wire or via wireless connection and no matter if they are directly facing the matrix or if they are hidden inside the Host).

After you gained access / entered the Host you can also hack (Brute Force or Probe + Backdoor Entry) other Hosts that are hidden / nested inside this specific Host.


Device that you have a Direct Connection to when the specific device is part of a Host but before you have access and entered the Host:

You can take Outsider actions against the specific device (such as Data Spike or Spoof Command) as well as threading complex forms (such as Puppeteer) no matter if the specific device is connected to the Host via a wire or wireless connection and no matter if it is directly facing the matrix or if it is hidden inside the Host. Hacking (Brute Force or Probe + Backdoor Entry) give you access to the Host (including devices that are connected to the Host via wires and devices that are hidden inside the Host) also no matter if the Host is normally not a matrix facing Host (the Host is normally nested behind a layered network of other Hosts and all their devices are normally hidden inside the Host itself).


Device that you have a Direct Connection to when the specific device is part of a Host after you gained access / entered the Host:

You can take any Matrix Actions up to and including your current Access level as well as threading complex forms (such as Puppeteer) against any device within the Host (no matter if they are connected via wire or via wireless connection and no matter if they are directly facing the matrix or if they are hidden inside the Host).

After you gained access / entered the Host you can also hack (Brute Force or Probe + Backdoor Entry) other Hosts that are hidden / nested inside this specific Host (even if you have not hacked all the outer layers of the Host network)
« Last Edit: <10-10-22/1756:44> by Xenon »

Dreamwalker

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« Reply #13 on: <10-10-22/1405:59> »
You may want to keep in mind that being able to detect icons (e.g., through matrix perception) is often an additional prerequisite to taking matrix actions or using complex forms against them via wireless. (It is an explicitly stated requirement for the Editor and Puppeteer complex forms for whatever reason). However, detection is not a thing when using a direct connection (as per the FAQ).

Resonance actions (such as Puppeteer)
On a side note: you are referring to the use of complex forms. The term resonance action is a bit fuzzy.

For some reason these two cases bug me:

Devices that are part of a Host when hacking remotely (no Direct Connection) and before you have access:

You can take Outsider actions (such as Data Spike or Spoof Command) as well as Resonance actions (such as Puppeteer) against specific devices, but only if the specific device is wireless enabled and directly facing the Matrix (not hidden inside the Host).

Devices that are part of a Host when hacking remotely (no Direct Connection) but after you gained access / entered the Host:

You can take any Matrix Actions up to and including your current Access level as well as Resonance actions (such as Puppeteer) against any device within the Host (no matter if they are connected via wire or via wireless connection and no matter if they are directly facing the matrix or if they are hidden inside the Host).

While the statements appear correct from what I could gather, they warrant the question what the sleaze attribute of a host is good for.
« Last Edit: <10-10-22/1536:24> by Dreamwalker »

Xenon

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« Reply #14 on: <10-10-22/1753:47> »
You may want to keep in mind that being able to detect icons (e.g., through matrix perception) is often an additional prerequisite to taking matrix actions or using complex forms against them via wireless.
This was more of an issue in previous edition (where you often had to take a matrix perception test and where you had to spot individual devices before you were allowed to interact with them) than in this one (where you often automatically spot them and when it comes to networks that are running silent matrix perception now instead seem to work more like regular perception).


detection is not a thing when using a direct connection
Nor once you already gained access on the network.


On a side note: you are referring to the use of complex forms. The term resonance action is a bit fuzzy.
Fair enough.

Resonance Actions where actually a Thing in previous edition, but you are correct. I should have used "complex forms" or "threading complex forms". I'll go back and update the post to make it more clear. Thanks for the heads up :)


For some reason these two cases bug me:
Once you enter the host / have access on the network (the second paragraph), you automatically also have access on all the network's devices, so should be no need for a matrix perception test here (in previous edition it worked in a similar way as you would be considered Directly Connected to all devices out on the grid that was slaved to the host for as long as you were inside the host).


... what the sleaze attribute of a host is good for.
I'd imagine that if you try to map out the Host network architecture while there are some silent running Hosts in there, then you would probably resolve that as an opposed Matrix Perception test vs Willpower of their attending Spider (if it has one) + its Sleaze rating (of the host itself).
« Last Edit: <10-10-22/1802:00> by Xenon »

 

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