[Reaver]

OK, I got a little bit of a situation going on...

I am about to introduce the WAR! campaign settings on my group, add to the min/maxing some players do, I have a MAJOR gun nut in the group and I know this question is going to come up:

Can you combine APDS rounds with High power rounds?

     --AND--

If yes, do you allow it?


By logical standards, yes, it SHOULD work... because APDS is a change to the bullet/head of the cartridge, while High Powered is a change to the explosive intensity of the powder load. 

But by game standards, I am not too sure I want to be introducing "HP" combo ammos all the time either. For one thing, how would you price it out? Add the two ammo type costs together? What about availability?? Would such a combo round unbalance the game?

(mind you, way some threads complain about armor.... )

Thanks for your input!

[Crash_00]

By RAW, High Power Chambering makes the weapon capable of firing High Power Ammunition, and only High Power Ammunition.

High Power Ammunition is +2DV/-1AP

So no, by RAW you can't have High Power APDS. This is just for game balance reasons only in my opinion, as logically it should be possible for the same reason you stated (to that affect most special ammo should be able to be High Power as well).

Personally, I don't think HP is worth it. It only has one extra damage over Ex-exp and you give up all your adaptability.

[KarmaInferno]

Yeah, High Power is a little bit of a trap.

If a gun is High Power, that's all it ever will be. No Stick & Shock, no Ex-Ex, no Gel rounds, etc.



-k

[Crash_00]

The only time I really use it is in guns that are more flavor than professional. Namely Super Warhawks and Elephant Rifles (Although many groups rule that they already have High Power chambering from what I've seen).

[ARC]

I wouldn't allow it.  you can't really have APDS and HP rounds fired from he same gun.

[Mystic]

Nor I. In all of the games I have ever played, be it RPG or miniature, I have found that gear tends not to be optimised because for two reasons: game balance, and the "why bother with anything else" factor. If gear, weapons, units, vehicles, etc were optimised then what reason would I or anyone use anything else?

[Crash_00]

Forgot to add:

My group uses a House Rule that for any weapons with Cylinders (Cy) or Break Action (B) you can fire normal rounds from the weapon as well as the High Power Rounds. We felt this better fit the feel of the modification and was a little more logical when looking at RL weapons. Given we based this off interpreting "larger high power rounds" to mean a longer casing rather than a higher caliber.

All in all we felt that the mod was more like going from a .38 to a .357 Mag as opposed to going from a .45 to .50.

For those that aren't firearm schooled, a .357 Magnum is the same exact caliber as a .38 Special (The .38 special is actually a .357 caliber, the .38 comes from the diameter of the loaded brass from back when people were converting old cap and ball .36 Navy's to fire .38 Short Colt cartridge rounds). The only difference between the two rounds is in the powder used (and the power created by that powder) and that the .357 Mag rounds are slightly larger (I think around 1/8th of an inch difference) the length difference is for safety reasons though so you don't mix up your .357 and .38 rounds.

What this means is that a .357 Magnum revolver can fire both .357 Magnum rounds and .38 Special rounds. A .38 special can not fire .357 Magnum rounds though, because it cannot handle the higher pressure caused by the more powerful rounds (Hence why there needed to be a distinctive physical difference for safety). .357 Magnum Automatics can't deal with the .38 rounds though, because the different length of the case causes problems with loading the magazine and cycling rounds into the chamber.

[JoeNapalm]

I have a good friend who hunts deer with a pistol. The word "hunts" is a bit misleading...it implies a lot more randomness in the equation. It would be more accurate to say he selects deer to eat, and uses a pistol to pick out the ones he wants. He uses a pistol (during rifle/shotgun season, as opposed to when he's using a black powder longrifle or a bow) to make it a bit more sporting.

As an example for those who have pistol experience, I've seen this guy take a 75 yard unsupported shot and put it in the 10-ring, dropping a buck stone dead in it's tracks. With a handgun.

Anyway, the whole point of this narrative is that, to hunt the rather large economy-sized deer in his locale, he hand-loads his own "hot" .44 Magnum rounds.

The only problem was, he was using a scale he'd inherited from his grandfather, and it was just a wee bit on the generous side. 

Thankfully, the frame of his Super Redhawk contained the cylinder, when it blew...utterly destroyed the weapon, but saved his hand. Other than possibly needing to change his shorts, he was unscathed.

Needless to say, the nostalgia for Ol' Gramps' powder scales wore off rather immediately. And, amazingly, Ruger replaced his Redhawk for FREE, and apologized for incident, even though he sent it to them to be repaired, explaining that he'd loaded it beyond spec.

Anyway. Totally random.

Back on topic, the more I hear about WAR!, the less I want it. In a combat system that is abstracted beyond considerations like caliber, I don't see why HP would even be valid. It kind of flies in the face of the design principle of the game.

Take an AR-15, which fires 5.56 - I can instead get an AR-10 that fires 7.62, but in SR they perform pretty much identically. Why, in that system, would a so called "High Power" round even matter? If I take my Heavy Pistol down to the shop and buy 185gr bonded hollow-point instead of 165gr jacketed hollow-point ammo, do I do more damage? No, because SR doesn't operate down in the weeds, like that.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Crash_00]

In all fairness, if they had done it right High Power would be an Ammunition Modification rather than a special Type of ammunition. If I were doing the designing, I would have done something along these lines with special ammunition.

Ammunition
Ammo comes in a variety of options for most weapons in 2072. Some weapons are limited to a specific type of ammunition (Assault Cannon and Tasers), but other weapons may fire specialized loads designed for a specific job. When buying ammunition for weapons (other than those listed above), you may select one powder option and one bullet option.

Powder Options
Subsonic
High Power
MAD Resistant (1-3)
Etc.

Bullet Options
Gel
Stick-n-Shock
APDS
Hollow Point
Explosive
EX-Explosive
AV
Etc.

I would have given High Power the following stats (+1DV*/-1AP*) [*The +1 DV of High Powered powder is negated when used in combination with APDS, AV, or AT bullets as the round punches a small hole through the target rather than mushrooming in the target./*The -1 AP of High Power is negated when used in combination with Hollow Point, Explosive, or EX-Explosive rounds as the round explode or expand on the targets armor.]

Then again, I'm not a professional designer so this is all just my most likely flawed dream.

[kirk]

In all fairness, if they had done it right High Power would be an Ammunition Modification rather than a special Type of ammunition. If I were doing the designing, I would have done something along these lines with special ammunition.

Ammunition
Ammo comes in a variety of options for most weapons in 2072. Some weapons are limited to a specific type of ammunition (Assault Cannon and Tasers), but other weapons may fire specialized loads designed for a specific job. When buying ammunition for weapons (other than those listed above), you may select one powder option and one bullet option.

Powder Options
Subsonic
High Power
MAD Resistant (1-3)
Etc.

Bullet Options
Gel
Stick-n-Shock
APDS
Hollow Point
Explosive
EX-Explosive
AV
Etc.

I would have given High Power the following stats (+1DV*/-1AP*) [*The +1 DV of High Powered powder is negated when used in combination with APDS, AV, or AT bullets as the round punches a small hole through the target rather than mushrooming in the target./*The -1 AP of High Power is negated when used in combination with Hollow Point, Explosive, or EX-Explosive rounds as the round explode or expand on the targets armor.]

Then again, I'm not a professional designer so this is all just my most likely flawed dream.

The designer response boils down to "what are the negatives"? Take for example the fact while you can put magnum loads in some pistols, in others it is a very bad idea. Unless you want to play ChartRunner, you need to simplify it to as close a handwave as possible.

[Crash_00]

Just give High Power the opposite of Subsonic's side effect's +2 to hear the weapon (+1 if silenced/suppressed) and keep the forbidden rating. As far as the powder load goes, I don't really see any guns in 2072 being unable to handle the stress unless homemade or specifically designed not to.

It's one thing to hand load your own rounds and mess up (blowing your gun, and possibly arm, to smithereens). But for normal magnum rounds,  we've already seen a modern leap forward though in technology. My local pawn shop doesn't even sell snubnosed .38s anymore, all you can find are snubnosed .357 because they fire the .38 rounds just as well and can handle the higher power magnums. With high grade plasteel at their disposal, I see most of the weapon's in 2072 having a much higher power than equivalent rounds do now. Otherwise 2072 armor would stop everything (Dragonskin armor today can stop a grenade that its sitting on top of. The concussion would still kill you of course and the vest would be fragged, but it won't even rip the nylon on the otherside).

[Mason]

I allow players to build custom ammo with Armorer skill and Ballistics knowledge...in small batches at really high thresholds. They could get like 20 shots of bullets like these every 3 game months or so, on average.

[Reaver]

Sounds like we are all on the same page on this one ( no you can't combine )

Thank you for all the feed back!!