[Herr Brackhaus]

8-bit
I would challenge the "restricted weapon that you can carry anywhere", but for all weapon types. Carrying a Restricted AR is just as bad as carrying a Restriced Sniper Rifle in pretty much any area with a solid police presence in my opinion. Carrying ARs and Sniper Rifles openly in anything C-rated or higher would definitely cause increased scrutiny in my game, and while legal with a solid license I'd most certainly have such a character stopped by cops occasionally.

I'd also like to point out that this discussion hardly revolves around character generation weapons; in fact, the OP mentions choosing between a Barrett and an AM-47.

So when faket15 says that if your primary longarm, which for the purposes of this discussion is supposed to take down hard targets after all, is a Restricted one you're not doing your primary role effectively and might as well take a Restricted assault rifle, I tend to agree. If the only choice is a Restricted AR or Sniper Rifle, I'm choosing the AR for it versatility and power. Even with a lower base AP all restricted ARs can use Bulls-Eye to dramatically increase AP values, at which point the AR is outperforming the equivalent sniper rifles in every field except range.

Sniper Rifles really shine when used against spirits and hardened armored, from long distance, with good setup. Like the credit card ad goes; for everything else, there's Automatics.

My opinion only, of course.

[Namikaze]

What ails me most about the Run & Gun modification rules is the stupid idea that no-one is desgining after market parts for weapons like new barrels (enhanced precision), muzzle breaks (less recoil), new bolt carrier groups (less recoil, change SA to BF or FA) and especially larger magazines (goddamit!). In an age of 3D-printing being a standard technology, an EBR with an after market barrel, built-in smartgun and a 50-shot drum magazine should not be unobtainable, but "add evening express?" for every dealer.

You took from the lack of mod rules for these things that no one is making or designing these components?  I took it to mean that we don't have rules for those things.  I also think it's super simple to house rule some new muzzles, barrels, and magazines.  Here's a sample:

Longer barrel, 200¥
Increase range by 10%
+1 to the weapon's concealability modifier

Shorter barrel, 100¥
Decrease range by 10%
-1 to the weapon's concealability modifier

Large capacity magazine, 100¥
Double magazine capacity
+1 to the weapon's concealability modifier

Voila.

[8-bit]

8-bit
I would challenge the "restricted weapon that you can carry anywhere", but for all weapon types. Carrying a Restricted AR is just as bad as carrying a Restriced Sniper Rifle in pretty much any area with a solid police presence in my opinion. Carrying ARs and Sniper Rifles openly in anything C-rated or higher would definitely cause increased scrutiny in my game, and while legal with a solid license I'd most certainly have such a character stopped by cops occasionally.

You are correct in pointing out my flaw there. Here's my revision.

You can carry this stuff in a duffel bag or in your car, and if a cop comes up and checks you, they will likely let you go with a warning; perhaps they will escort you back to your property and make sure you drop it off. Also, something like the Remington 950 is considered a Sporting Rifle, so if it's your "hunting rifle", they will probably let you off. If you show up with a Forbidden Weapon (Heavens forbid that you have an Availability 10+ Forbidden Weapon), you don't get a warning. You get arrested immediately, and if you appear to reach for anything, probably get shot preemptively.

I'd also like to point out that this discussion hardly revolves around character generation weapons; in fact, the OP mentions choosing between a Barrett and an AM-47.

I'm aware of that. The thing is, nearly everyone who has recommended the Remington 950 (note that I said nearly everyone) agrees that the Barret Model 122 is a vastly superior and good choice, if you have the money. What faket15 said, was, and I quote:

I don't understand what so many people like about the 950. It is a really nice backup weapon for situations when you can't have your real sniper rifle with you if you already have longarms as your main combat skill. If your real sniper rifle is the Remington,however, you shouldn't have Longarms in the first place.

This discussion is about the Remington 950 usability as a Primary firearm. Considering that the obviously superior choices are banned at character creation, it makes sense to compare apples to apples (chargen weapons to chargen weapons) rather than apples to oranges (chargen weapons to high availability post-chargen weapons).

So when faket15 says that if your primary longarm, which for the purposes of this discussion is supposed to take down hard targets after all, is a Restricted one you're not doing your primary role effectively and might as well take a Restricted assault rifle, I tend to agree. If the only choice is a Restricted AR or Sniper Rifle, I'm choosing the AR for it versatility and power. Even with a lower base AP all restricted ARs can use Bulls-Eye to dramatically increase AP values, at which point the AR is outperforming the equivalent sniper rifles in every field except range.

We could talk about why you would go with Assault Rifles over Sniper Rifles for a really short time. Because, you know what? I agree. Assault Rifles are superior to Sniper Rifles. The Automatics group is the best set of Firearms, it covers all ranges and is super versatile.

What he was saying is that the Remington 950 is a "mathematically bad" choice to use, and I don't understand what he means or where he is getting this. I mean, it being mathematically bad is sort of relative, but if we consider it as separate, he was basically implying that there is never a reason to take the Remington 950 over an Assault Rifle, except for roleplaying reasons, because it is so much mathematically worse. I said it wasn't that much worse that it warranted a never-use status.

Sniper Rifles really shine when used against spirits and hardened armored, from long distance, with good setup. Like the credit card ad goes; for everything else, there's Automatics.

Pretty much.

[faket15]

You misunderstood my argument (maybe I wasn't clear enough. English is not my first language). The Remington IS worth it and IMO, everyone who has Longarms should have one as a backup weapon. My problem is that people look at the stats and think it is much better than it really is and start to think about it as if it was a good main gun, which it is not. The scripts use the stats as a base, but they are much better then looking at the book and saying "this gun is good" because they show exactly what are the effects of things like better firing modes and also show that even small differences in stats can have huge effects against some targets. Scripts can also be used to get data that is hard to get in other ways, like what is the chance of one-shotting a target or breaching through hardened armor.

Comparing the 950 and the AK-97 with a dice pool of 18 and regular ammo against a police officer or security guard, the chance of dropping the target with a burst from an AK-97 is 75.23%. With the 950 and Take Aim + Shoot, the result is better (79.67%). With APDS the guns are almost tied: 89.93% with the AK-97 versus 89.58% with the 950. In this same situation, the Desert Strike gives you a chance o 95.1%, the Crockett gives a chance of 97.11% and the Ares Alpha gives 95.47%. This doesn't seem to be a big difference, but this is basically the weakest opposition you will probably fight.

Against elite corporate security (or street samurai), you are looking at really low chances with regular ammo (15.25% with the AK-97 and 19.89% with the 950), which means average damage becomes a metric as good or even better than the chance of dropping the target with one shot. In this metric, the AK-97 wins with 7.47 vs 6.62. With APDS, the chances become 28.22% with the AK-97 (average damage of 8.78) and 32.02% with the 950 (average damage of 7.63). If the guy with the AK-97 has Sharpshooter, he can use Bull's-Eye Burst to increase his chance to 37.37% and his average damage to 9.46. Without the quality, it doesn't really make a difference.

Against the same elite corporate security guy, a Desert Strike with APDS has a chance of 47.32% and average damage of 9.01. Using Bull's Eye without Sharpshooter you have 57.83%, but lower average damage (8.33). With Sharpshooter you have 67.56% and average damage of 9.83.

Compared with the Desert Strike, the Crockett has a lower chance of dropping the target (61.33% with Bull's Eye + Sharpshooter and 43.17% without) but a higher average damage (10.29 with Bull's-Eye + Sharpshooter and 9.44 without). Comparing Crockett vs Alpha ends up basically the same way. The Alpha does more damage, but the Crockett has a higher chance of dropping the target.

[8-bit]

I apologize is I offended you in any way.

Thank you for explaining your reasoning, what you said makes much more sense now.

I still feel like the Remington is a decent Primary weapon, at least until you can get a "real" sniper Rifle (like the Terracotta or Barret), and Longarms are still useful for Shotguns. Also, Elite Corporate Security is not that common, but common enough that your argument is valid. I can't argue with the math though. Kind of amazed the Remington 950 has that low of a chance to OHKO someone; although this is with only 18 dice. You have definitely convinced me that the Remington is not as good as I thought it was.

[Ursus Maior]

You took from the lack of mod rules for these things that no one is making or designing these components?  I took it to mean that we don't have rules for those things.  I also think it's super simple to house rule some new muzzles, barrels, and magazines.  Here's a sample:

Longer barrel, 200¥
Increase range by 10%
+1 to the weapon's concealability modifier

Shorter barrel, 100¥
Decrease range by 10%
-1 to the weapon's concealability modifier

Large capacity magazine, 100¥
Double magazine capacity
+1 to the weapon's concealability modifier

Voila.

Thanks, Namikaze, indeed I could do these things on my own in a minute. But not only do houserules need to fit the mood of the game fluffwise, they also need to fit rulewise. And with SR5 I sometimes do not understand how they come by their rules or rule modifications. Sure, every weapon is an abstract rule item, but they still need to fit into the world. Why would someone design rules for modifying weapons and add rules for an underbarrel-chainsaw, but not for diffrent barrels, magazines etc. SR5 is big about copying SR4, whole paragraphs in the old core book were simply pasted into the new one. Why not take the rules from Cannon Companion (72-84) and add them to SR5.

My point is more than pure pedantery and "old SR was so much better". In fact I like SR5 a lot, in many ways I like it far more than SR3 (never player SR4). But rules need to make sense not only to a player, but also to the character -- that is within the world. In what universe does it make sense that the most powerful sniper rifles (Terracotta and Barret) hardly differ in price and while the one does +1 damage (7% increase), it has -2 AP, loosing 1/3 of its capability. And why are these high end rifles about 1/3 more expensive than the Ranger Arms which has the damage of the Barret, 25% more AP than the Terracotta and is more accurate than both (offline or when adding a a smartgun for a couple of bucks). And why is the Springfield Arms the most accurate weapon (yet) on the planet (Acc 9), even surpassing all modern high-tech designs, but apparently no-one can actually fit a smart gun onto it (not even a laser pointer, because they are modern electronics as well) or make it shoot beyond 750 meters.

Who comes up with these ideas and how does it seem to make sense from an in-world perspective. Sure, I can houserule all that, but actually I pay others to make their rules and ideas of a SR-universe consistent.

[McGuffin]

I agree that many sniper rifles deliver a superior punch and would be preferable in a fight against hardened targets.
But what I quite often see under represented is the money factor. I've heard of groups where the cost of a weapon is just a target number the runner needs to beat with enough accumulated cash and everything is fine.
In my group our runners are encouraged to not spend every dime they earn on enhancement. They want to further their own goals, too. In some cases that involves expensive dresses, becoming a home owner, aggressive partying (blackjack&hookers) or just saving for rainy days. Sometimes we have months without worthy employment (we don't take any job) and during those months we don't want to become monks.
What I'm trying to say is that I've yet to play in a round where the income was high enough to justify the expense of a 30K+ weapon. But we're not playing mercenaries, so your experiences may differ.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

At Faket15:

For the Remington 950, rerun your numbers with the Remington using the called shot Vitals (adds 2 to dv) with both sharpshooter and not. Other suggestion is to run the numbers in a more ideal set up for the sniper; surprise, long range (51-350 m for SR vrs 26-150 m for AF, which imaging scope removes the -1).

The reasons being, with the called shot for increased damage +net hits and -6 ap (adps) the Remington 950 should do a little better. Also, if your runners are commonly using adps with burst fire, they have a lot of money (or see a lot of spirits). At ¥12 per bullet, that can get expensive quick. Also, remember just because the assault rifle is R and you have the license doesn't mean the cops can't or won't give you crap, temporarily confiscate it, or other annoying gimmicks. While they could to an R sniper rifle as well most either look like or are sports rifles and are more likely to be ignored. Oh, and adps is also F rated, so if they see that (such as when checking the R weapons) jail time (or executed on the spot). Remember the game is more than numbers, but also the right weapon for the right job (and getting it to the job).

[faket15]

The called shot for Vitals is actually more effective with an Assault Rifle than with a Sniper Rifle because of the higher chance to actually hit. It is also better than Bull's Eye for anything with less AP than a Desert Strike, including the AK-97. When you compare the AK and the Remington with a Called Shot to Vitals, the AK wins both in average damage and chance of OHKO, while with no Called Shot it wins only in average damage.

A Sniper Rifle is better at certain engagement ranges, but not enough to have a higher average damage. SRs have a longer maximum range, but how frequently do you expect to fight enemies at extreme range? Surprise situations clearly favor SRs, which shouldn't be really a surprise, but an AR offers you some nice tactical options (Supressive Fire, for example) that you can't really have with a Sniper Rifle.

The point about APDS's cost may be important. Depending on how much you make per run, you should be using cheaper rounds rather than APDS against normal targets. But if you are fighting against real opposition (Elite Corporate Security, HTR Teams, Spirits, teams of Shadowrunners with one or two Street Sams, ...) why would you be using anything else?

About police response to restricted guns, I always see people using the same argument and I really don't buy it. Back in SR3 the legality system was much more complex and yes, being caught with an automatic gun (including SMGs) was worse than being caught with a sporting rifle or shotgun. You also couldn't get a permit for any automatic gun, which means all of them were forbidden in SR5 terms. In SR4 and SR5, unfortunately, this argument doesn't have any real base and is more of a GM call than anything else. My personal view is that restricted is restricted, end of story. Some GMs think like me, some don't, but you can't really base a comparison between guns in things that are not in any way a part of the system, but only a restriction created by particular GMs.

[Vibral]

Ok so I have a related/unrelated question that is more or less on topic. I’m looking to equip a overwatch/sniper character to run as an NPC for stuff I’m writing.

Since there has been quite a bit of talk about how most SR combat is within the first or second range category I want to insure that a role which I find important from a tactical sense but not necessarily fun or the most entertaining role from a player standpoint can be filled by me should no one be interested. However I can let the players be in control of who gets hit by calling out requests for targets from the NPC.

What my real question is how to suitably go about this. Since I’m sure (since I’m writing it) there are potential encounters high up in skyscrapers and open areas, is there a way to facilitate getting a sniper and his rifle (Barret of course) into a good spot. My initial thoughts are either having him do rigging as well and strapping the Barret to a drone, or mounting it on a helicopter mount in the hopes of being able to hold the copter steady and provide fire over multiple floors if necessary and to be able to change altitude. 

Obviously this sounds like pretty heavy fire support and I understand that and its possible negative impacts on both the runs and reps of the characters in the story if they are constantly within scope/cyber eyes of an ever present Barret equipped, vertically mobile watchdog.

Thoughts?

[Namikaze]

*snipped for readability*

Crockett.  It's the ideal multi-role longarm.  Burst fire capability allows for suppression as needed, the damage is good, the AP is good, and once you've got a smartgun system in there it's pretty much as good as anyone will likely ever need a rifle to be (for most threats).  If you're looking to deal with hardened targets, the Barret is your better option though.  You lose some of the versatility of the Crockett, but you make up for it in raw power.

[Reaver]

Ok so I have a related/unrelated question that is more or less on topic. I’m looking to equip a overwatch/sniper character to run as an NPC for stuff I’m writing.

Since there has been quite a bit of talk about how most SR combat is within the first or second range category I want to insure that a role which I find important from a tactical sense but not necessarily fun or the most entertaining role from a player standpoint can be filled by me should no one be interested. However I can let the players be in control of who gets hit by calling out requests for targets from the NPC.

What my real question is how to suitably go about this. Since I’m sure (since I’m writing it) there are potential encounters high up in skyscrapers and open areas, is there a way to facilitate getting a sniper and his rifle (Barret of course) into a good spot. My initial thoughts are either having him do rigging as well and strapping the Barret to a drone, or mounting it on a helicopter mount in the hopes of being able to hold the copter steady and provide fire over multiple floors if necessary and to be able to change altitude. 

Obviously this sounds like pretty heavy fire support and I understand that and its possible negative impacts on both the runs and reps of the characters in the story if they are constantly within scope/cyber eyes of an ever present Barret equipped, vertically mobile watchdog.

Thoughts?

Boils down to how your table plays things out.  I play in several different games that run from ultra black trench coat, to sparkling, neon pink mo-hawks and what you can get away with in one game, gets you killed 30 feet from your front door in the other.

In the Ultra-trench coat game, we have never used a sniper. Mostly due to the pain in the ass it would be to get them into cover and position:
        Sniping implies both cover and distance, things that a city both does and does not provide well to a covert team trying to get both into, and out of a facility. This means that usually the Sniper has to be elevated, which means roof top, or window firing. Both of which can literally be runs in and of themselves in the AA+ areas that most Corporate facilities are located in. Why? you may ask? Well, where exactly is that sniper going to go? Into the building across the street? Well, that in all probability, is the office building of yet an other Corp, which means it's own security that has to be penetrated and over come.
        As for using a drone to mount and use a Sniper rifle, there is a lot of debate on what size a mount is needed for the sniper rifle (just search the forums, there are PAGES on this debate). We roll with the more litteral ruling which means you need a heavy mount... which means a larger drone, hovering in place with a large rifle while literally thousands of other drones zip by..... Yep, it's going to get seen, tracked and blown out of the sky by KE or the a Corp in minutes. I mean come on, there is an unknown drone with a Forbidden weapon lurking in either public space or Corp space? What do you think is going to happen? Now the argument has been made about CM and stealth for drones, and while they do have their place, and are very useful, you are also talking bout thousands of drones, meaning thousands of sensors scans over minutes of time, it is going to get spotted... or, just as likely crashed into by an other drone that doesn't spot it (depending of course on where it is parked)
       Heck, just transporting the weapons and gear can be a chore. Rich people like to feel safe, that means police out in force and it means check points, usually at chokepoints into and out of zones, which means trying to look like you fit in as you make your way across the city and back. Add to that the complex nature of the extra-territoriality laws and the patch work of enforcement this makes across the city scape, and you have a host of security, looking for various things as you weave your way through the city, risking MCT security, in favor of missing a KE check point.....
       For al the hassle getting a sniper and their equipment into place, we stick with a rigger and with drones mounting an AR and LMG to get us out of the shit, which has brought up it's own host of challenges to over come.


In the Neon Mo-hawk game:
    Our sniper regularly stands out on the ledge of the building shooting mooks with is Panther "sniper" cannon while screaming into a loud speaker "BOOOM!!!! HEAD SHOT!!!" that he packs with him. On the rare occasions that the building directly across from where the sniper needs to be actually is an office building (and not just a parking tower), the well placed and generous use of anti-personnel mines and grenades takes care of the occupants just fine.
     Our drones usually don't bother with sniping, and mini-guns and grenade launchers seem to be much more fun for the Rigger to use... KE is only a problem in that there is an endless supply of them, as the gun bunny has had to replace the stock on his Ares Alpha from recording too many "Pig kills" on it.

****

talk to the table and the GM and find out what type of game they are playing and go from there. If the game has security and LE turned to 11, ditch the sniper rifle.

[Herr Brackhaus]

*snipped for readability*

Crockett.  It's the ideal multi-role longarm.  Burst fire capability allows for suppression as needed, the damage is good, the AP is good, and once you've got a smartgun system in there it's pretty much as good as anyone will likely ever need a rifle to be (for most threats).  If you're looking to deal with hardened targets, the Barret is your better option though.  You lose some of the versatility of the Crockett, but you make up for it in raw power.

QFT. Mount either on the Federated-Boeing Bumblebee drone from Nothing Personal (essentially an uparmored Roto-Drone with AV 14 at 24,000¥ and 12F availability) and you've got a real winner. Just make sure you've got your Wrapper program running hot...

[psycho835]

Rich people like to feel safe, that means police out in force and it means check points, usually at chokepoints into and out of zones, which means trying to look like you fit in as you make your way across the city and back.

Ah, but sometimes they feel a little TOO safe. 'Cause, guess what, it's NOT the pizza drone.

In the Neon Mo-hawk game:
    Our sniper regularly stands out on the ledge of the building shooting mooks with is Panther "sniper" cannon while screaming into a loud speaker "BOOOM!!!! HEAD SHOT!!!" that he packs with him. On the rare occasions that the building directly across from where the sniper needs to be actually is an office building (and not just a parking tower), the well placed and generous use of anti-personnel mines and grenades takes care of the occupants just fine.

You mean something like that?
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6982725/1/Infiltrait0rN7

[Kincaid]

I second the EBR.  My SRM character has a Ranger SM-5 in a hardshell briefcase he uses for special occasions, but the vast majority of the time, the EBR works just fine.