[Ravensong]

Herr Brackhaus, its a good point. My character went for Long Arms for the Shotgun [close/mid range] and Sniper [long/extra long range], and the whole character build supports this.

With a dedicated sniper taking down targets from long range, and my character entering in for breaching, our team had profound command of our field of ops with very small numbers. Minus the sniper, now our team is feeling the lack of cover.

Our sniper was taking down hard targets with one shot. Being an adept was a key ingredient to his supreme success. Not going to be able to replace him, just looking to fill in the role in such a way that I can reliably take down targets within the first round of engagement.

Cheers mate. This dwarf loves the big guns.

[Ravensong]

MijRai, good point on Assault vs Long Arms. Indeed the Barret may be a key tool to take down spirits and hard targets when every shot counts.

Ursus, love the focus on effective weapon to cost analysis. Very important for runners to maximize the profits of their runs.

... And we all know, the first should be the last.

[Ursus Maior]

Ursus Maior
Technically, if you're using the modern term "designated marksman", any assault rifle in the Shadowrun setting will really do. [cut down for readability, UM]

D'accord in most points. The EBR of Shadowrun ist essentially the M39 EMR of the Marines, which is a modernized, precision version of the M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle, itself a more modern version of the M14. And yes, I think a designated marksman can simply use a precise version of an assault rifle in real life as much as in SR. As I mentioned, I'm running a face doing exactly that. But, and it's a small one, the extra range can give you several benefits. Although you might not need the max range, you profit from larger range increments from the start. While most battles in corp facilities might be below 25 meters, 50 meters for +/- 0 range modifier ist quite nice and 51-350 meters for -1 die should solve everything you usually have to engage. Modern rifle combat rarely goes beyond 200 meters, anythin beyond 400 meters is barely heard of. Except Afghanistan, which rattled quite a few.

What ails me most about the Run & Gun modification rules is the stupid idea that no-one is desgining after market parts for weapons like new barrels (enhanced precision), muzzle breaks (less recoil), new bolt carrier groups (less recoil, change SA to BF or FA) and especially larger magazines (goddamit!). In an age of 3D-printing being a standard technology, an EBR with an after market barrel, built-in smartgun and a 50-shot drum magazine should not be unobtainable, but "add evening express?" for every dealer.

In fact, depending on where you live today, that would be quite normal. But SR has failed to get how online markets work for the last 20 years. Which lead them to design guns that always do certain things well and others doing other things well, but none just doing what a customer expect a gun to do for a certain price. The idea that someone would construct a rifle like the EBR with a definately fixed bullet capacity is ludicrous ever since detachable box magazines were invented. In my opinion there should be weapon contruction rules again like in SR3.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Depends, you already have AA-12 for close range and suppressive fire. If you are worried about the coppers and legality, then pick up one of the sport rifles either the Remington or River out of the core or the the actual sport rifles out of gun h(e)aven 3. Some of them hit in the low teens and have AP of around -4.

[Anarkitty]

The key point to consider when comparing the modern designated marksman class of rifle that the military has found to be very useful, is that in SR you are much more likely to be engaging elite targets with heavy armor and potentially transhuman or magical enhancements.  The hardest target a modern designated marksman might be reliably expected to encounter is a base-line human with body armor or a light vehicle.  ISIS doesn't have a whole lot of 10-foot-tall dudes that can wear more armor than a light tank and carry and fire heavy machine guns without straining.  (Russia claims to have a few, but several of them are actually just shaved bears, and one is the Prime Minister.)
If a hard target needs to be taken down at great range, the US military still has full-blown sniper rifles at its disposal, and individuals trained to use them effectively.  Shadowrunners are essentially freelance Special Forces, and their targets are usually as dangerous as they are if not more so, and so while an assault rifle might be effective for some things, nothing beats an actual sniper rifle for actual sniping.

They're fairly versatile too: You can throw Gel or SnS rounds in it and gain an edge in negotiations, load it with APDS to take down hard targets, or explosive rounds to really make a point.

Also, because they're both Longarms, if anyone manages to sneak up on your sniper they will be naturally skilled with shotguns as well.

[Reaver]

Great contributions. Most deeply appreciated.

My current character is Dwarf Mercenary. Primary weapon is the AA-16 with under-barrel grenade launcher. The Ares Desert Strike was a backup weapon. Our team's primary sniper just got "forcibly retired" and my character is stepping up to take on that role as needed. Have had to drop weapons on a run before. And already KE has been a major pain in the ass. Running around with military grade weapons in Seattle is not fun, as this Ex-Merc is coming to realize.

Really like the Barret, but cringe at the cost, and am concerned about having to leave such a prime weapon behind.
The Onotari JP-K50, very similar to Crocket EBR, is a possible purchase, as is the Remington 950.

Remington: Hard to beat a 2,000 nuyen base price weapon that can have a valid license, and still reliably take down targets from long/extra long range, even if it ends up taking more than one shot to do it.

JP-K50: Can double as an assault rifle, mount a grenade launcher, and slightly cheaper that the Desert Strike. Could almost replace the AA-16 as a primary weapon, except that the auto-shot gun's base cost is only 1,600 nuyen, making it painless to replace if lost on a run.

Thanks again for the guidance. Rock on and good running, Omae.

Dwarf: 3.5 to 4.5 feet tall on average.

Barrett 122: 6 feet (aprox)


I can just picture your dwarf, running all out, leaping up the stairs to get to his sniper blind, lugging a rifle longer then he is

(But yes,m Game wise, you can do it.... just a funny mental picture for me)


All the rifles have their place.

The Barrett is more of an anti material rifle then a "sniper rifle". In Shadowrun, there is little difference between the two.... Just like there is little difference between a armored truck and an armored Troll. (Well, that's not true. The armored truck generally doesn't shoot back!). But, it's not an investment you want to walk away from if the run goes sideways.

The Remmington 950, while only a sport rifle, is at least a throw away rifle that won't break your bank, and won't land you in a KE squad car on a random stop. But, you probably won't drop an armored target in a single shot either....

The Desert Strike is a good choice, I would stick with that one for now, until you actually NEED to upgrade the weapon... And you will know when that time is. (it usually starts with "Hmmm... hardened armor...")

[psycho835]

What ails me most about the Run & Gun modification rules is the stupid idea that no-one is desgining after market parts for weapons like new barrels (enhanced precision), muzzle breaks (less recoil), new bolt carrier groups (less recoil, change SA to BF or FA) and especially larger magazines (goddamit!). In an age of 3D-printing being a standard technology, an EBR with an after market barrel, built-in smartgun and a 50-shot drum magazine should not be unobtainable, but "add evening express?" for every dealer.

In fact, depending on where you live today, that would be quite normal. But SR has failed to get how online markets work for the last 20 years. Which lead them to design guns that always do certain things well and others doing other things well, but none just doing what a customer expect a gun to do for a certain price. The idea that someone would construct a rifle like the EBR with a definately fixed bullet capacity is ludicrous ever since detachable box magazines were invented. In my opinion there should be weapon contruction rules again like in SR3.

This. Especially the part about magazines. I mean, c'mon, this is a game where "spare clip" is actually an item separate from spare ammo, and yet, you can't buy bigger ones. And when acquiring more dakka IS an option, it's a WEAPON (rather than magazine) modification, with a ridiculous "25% or a drum(which, for some reason, is such a radical mod that you need an entire facility) limitation. ARRRRGH!

[Tarislar]

I'd say go for a Remington 950. Since it's more of a sport rifle, it's easier to carry that one around with you (back window of your vehicle anyone?).

Huge fan of this.
Scope & Silencer & this thing does what you need for a MUCH more acceptable price.
Its my default Starter Sniper Rifle.

[8-bit]

I'd say go for a Remington 950. Since it's more of a sport rifle, it's easier to carry that one around with you (back window of your vehicle anyone?).

Huge fan of this.
Scope & Silencer & this thing does what you need for a MUCH more acceptable price.
Its my default Starter Sniper Rifle.

Aye, I've switched to it as my go to as well. If you have the money though, the Barret is awesome.

[Tarislar]

. If you have the money though, the Barret is awesome.

Wasn't disputing that at all.  Its a beast.  I just like the 950 for its efficiency & legality.
The Barret is a clear long term goal weapon for sure.

[faket15]

I don't understand what so many people like about the 950. It is a really nice backup weapon for situations when you can't have your real sniper rifle with you if you already have longarms as your main combat skill. If your real sniper rifle is the Remington,however, you shouldn't have Longarms in the first place. Longarms x Automatics is a trade-off between raw power and versatility, but all restricted longarms in the game are less effective than a restricted assault rifle when you factor in the chance of actually hitting the target. Going for Longarms instead of Automatics and only picking restricted guns is a sacrifice that some people are willing to take if it makes sense for the character concept, but it is a clearly bad option from a mathematical standpoint and shouldn't be discussed as if it wasn't.

[8-bit]

Please tell me what is "mathematically bad" about the Remington 950? It has the same AP, 1 less DV, and 12% of the cost (without accessories) of an Ares Desert Strike. It's also not a ridiculously high Availability that is also Forbidden, which would likely get you immediately arrested. It also is only SS, and has a clip of 5 (which is more than enough; I have had a character who has blown up 4 characters with 4 shots). Sure, you can't use a SAB or Bulls Eye/Double Tap, but it is not "mathematically bad".

The literally only 4 Sniper Rifles that are better than it are the Ares Desert Strike, Ranger Arms SM-5, Terracotta Arms AM-47, and Barret Model 122. Out of those, only the Desert Strike is available at character creation, and it has 1 more DV, 9 more clip size, and the ability to shoot SA. All for the low, low, price of 833% of the cost of the Remington 950; as well as a Forbidden Availability. The Cavalier Arms Crockett EBR is arguably comparable. You lose 1 AP (arguably the reason for using a Sniper Rifle), get the ability to shoot SA/BF, and 15 more clip size. Also for the low price of 490% of the cost of the Remington 950, and a Forbidden Availability.

That's like saying that going for Automatics and only picking Restricted Guns (you know, the ones you can carry around with you and won't get arrested and attacked on the spot for) is bad. It's not good or bad, just different.

[faket15]

I didn't say the Remington is bad. What I said was that it is less effective than restricted assault rifles. Going for Automatics and only using restricted guns isn't bad. Going for Longarms and only using restricted guns is strictly worse than doing the same thing with Automatics, giving you both less power and less versatility. When I'm comparing guns I don't really compare the stats directly because this is a flawed metric. The way I compare guns is simulating the possible effects against different targets using anydice scripts.

[8-bit]

Simulating the possible effects is the same as comparing the stats. You are simply taking the scenarios and playing them out to decide whether the tradeoff is worth it. If you didn't compare the stats, you wouldn't have different simulations, and you wouldn't get different results. That still doesn't really answer the question.

What is less effective about the Remington 950 vs. Restricted Assault Rifles compared to the Ares Desert Strike vs. Restricted Assault Rifles? Those are really about the only two you are going to look at for this argument, as they are probably the best two Sniper Rifles at character creation. I have no idea how to use anydice scripts, but I would be happy if you would plug it in for me and give me a reason why the Remington is so much worse than an Ares Desert Strike that the Remington is not even worth the lower cost and Availability.

My argument is that the Remington 950 is worth it for the Lower Availability and Cost, even though it has 1 less DV, a smaller clip, and can only shoot SS. The Ares Desert Strike is good, but the Remington is worth buying. Your argument, it seems to me, is that the Remington 950 isn't worth it. I just want to understand why you think it isn't.

[Reaver]

I didn't say the Remington is bad. What I said was that it is less effective than restricted assault rifles. Going for Automatics and only using restricted guns isn't bad. Going for Longarms and only using restricted guns is strictly worse than doing the same thing with Automatics, giving you both less power and less versatility. When I'm comparing guns I don't really compare the stats directly because this is a flawed metric. The way I compare guns is simulating the possible effects against different targets using anydice scripts.

And into your rolls for damage, did you include the rolls for the randomized number of police drones and check points scanning for weapons?

Or, what happens if and when you DO get searched?

That (F) in availability means forbidden, which means, no, YOU are not allowed to have it. And no, your "I'm uber snowflake special forces" rating 8 fake SIN isn't going to cut it. You get caught, you go directly to holding while people at a muck higher pay grade then the patrol officer decide your fate. Basically that (F) stands for F**ked once it's spotted.

That (R) availability weapon on the other hand? While it isn't going to make the officer happy to see it, as long as your are permitted up, he can't stop you for more then an extra pass of your SIN.... Nor would he, as depending on what your SIN says (you have a good reason for needing that R weapon right?), you could get him in hot water if "you" think he is prejudging you. (KE doesn't stand for Racism, they want to hold onto the Seattle contract, and recognize that public image matters!).

I have seen more then my fair share of runs end in wild mayhem before they ever got to the jobsite exactly because of spotted forbidden equipment. While as entertaining as  going on merry gun sprees through city streets with LE in hot pursuit, lobbing grenades at helicopters, and stealing cars from blue hair old ladies is, it does get boring after the 25th time

Also, the best gun for the job, is usually the easiest to get to the jobsite.