Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Aazen on <06-18-16/1448:42>
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Hey All. Joined a new group. They need a Decker and they need a Face. My on hands experience with SR5 is limited. So question: Can I make an effect Decker/Face?
How would you do it?
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Maybe, depending on the chargen the group uses.
Both of those require a lot of skill points.
Need the chargen method before I try to make a sample build.
Edit: forget doing both at "normal" skill as dedicated builds.
Better off choosing a main then branching out.
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Not really. Deckers are skill-intensive, require high resources, and need high Logic and a decent Willpower. Faces are much less skill intensive if you concentrate on the two most important skills of negotiation and con, require middling resources if you want to get tailored pheromones: 3, are best as adepts, and need a high Charisma and a decent Willpower.
Trying to do both would stretch even skills: A a bit thin. Forget being an adept - forget the tailored pheromones, even (you might be able to squeeze the pheromones in if you do sum-to-ten and take resources: A). You will be able to get the requisite mental Attributes, but your physical ones will probably be anemic. You could make a decker with some face skills (don't do the other way around - the matrix rules are such that you need to go big or go home) with Skills: A, Resources: B, Attributes: C, Metatype (human): D, and Magic: E - for sum-to-ten, raise Resources to A and drop Metatype to E.
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Hey All. Joined a new group. They need a Decker and they need a Face. My on hands experience with SR5 is limited. So question: Can I make an effect Decker/Face?
How would you do it?
It's possible, but as the two archetypes have no overlap, you'll have to cut corners. First I'll list the hurdles/difficulties of the build concept, then I'll offer solutions.
Decker as an archetype requires a lot; as such, it'll have to be the "primary" of the build. You'll be a decker first, face second. A secondary decker cannot be the main matrix specialist of his team, while a secondary face can still fill some key roles.
Hurdles
- Decking requires LOG and INT, with WIL as an off-stat. Being a Face requires CHA, which is otherwise the common dumpstat for deckers.
- Essence counts as part of your Social Limit, so loading yourself up with combat augments is a no-no.
- Decking uses six different skills, in two skill groups. Social skills also have six different skills, in two skill groups.
Now, in order to handle all of those things there's some simple answers. The first is to sacrifice points elsewhere.
A normal decker can be competent in combat because of augmentations, putting moderate points into physical attributes. A social decker needs to spend even more on mentals, meaning they are usually very vulnerable in combat. While some defensive augments are still an option (bone lacing, orthoskin, etc) a face should avoid things like obvious cyberarms if they want to be able to blend in. Tailored Pheremones is vital to this build, as it boosts your dice pools and your social limit. However, it doesn't work if you're making social rolls online-- Something a decker might end up doing surprisingly often. You have to be in person.
As for skills, on the decker side, you can skimp out on Software and Hardware (one point in Hardware is often all you need) and on the social side, the only absolutely needed skills will be Con, Etiquette, and Negotiation. If you have those, you can work as the team's Face, handling most things that are best defeated with words.
There's some "advanced techniques" that a social decker can accomplish-- Such as making great use of the Profiler quality (Data Trails, page 46) which was practically designed for such characters. In fact, I'd consider a specialization in Computer (Matrix Search) just for that ability. That, alongside a high (but probably not maxed) CHA and Tailored Pheremones can make you a formidable negotiator, leading your team to greater payouts every run.
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Aazen: give this thread a look, might help with the face half of your character.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=24263.0
firebug hit on a lot of the reasons why I posted that short response earlier.
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Here, I made one mostly, using the basic Priority system.
I haven't picked negative qualities, bought contacts, or spent knowledge points yet. I also have over 20,000¥ remaining to spend. Only Karma spent is on Positive Qualities, and 2 Karma spent on buying Rank 1 of Hardware.
[spoiler]== Info ==
Name: Unnamed Character
Elf Movement: 4/8
Composure: 9
Street Cred: 0 Judge Intentions: 11
Notoriety: 0 Lift/Carry: 3 (15 kg/10 kg)
Public Awareness: 0 Memory: 11
Karma: 0 Nuyen: 23810
== Priorities ==
Metatype: D,1
Attributes: C,2
Special: E,0
Skills: B,3
Resources: A,4
== Attributes ==
BOD: 2 CHA: 6
AGI: 2 INT: 5
REA: 2 LOG: 6 (8)
STR: 1 WIL: 3
EDG: 1
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 4.0 Initiative: 7 + 2d6
Physical Damage Track: 9 Rigger Init: 7 + 2d6
Stun Damage Track: 10 Astral Init:
Physical: 2 Matrix AR Init: 7 + 2d6
Mental: 8 Matrix VR Cold Init: 5 + DP + 3d6
Social: 10 Matrix VR Hot Init: 5 + DP + 4d6
Astral: 10
== Active Skills ==
Computer (Matrix Search) Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 14 (16)
Con Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 11
Cybercombat Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 14
Electronic Warfare Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 14
Etiquette Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 11
Hacking Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 14
Hardware Base: 0 + Karma: 1 = 1 Pool: 9
Leadership Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 11
Negotiation Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 11
Pistols (Semi-Automatics) Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 7 (9)
== Knowledge Skills ==
(Unpurchased)
== Qualities ==
First Impression
Low-Light Vision
Online Fame
Overclocker
Profiler
== Lifestyles ==
Apartment (Low) 1 months
== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Boosted Reflexes
Cerebral Booster Rating 2
Tailored Pheromones Rating 3
== Armor ==
Actioneer Business Clothes 8
Helmet 2
+Camera Rating 6
+Image Link
+Flare Compensation
+Thermographic Vision
+Low Light
+Flare Compensation
+Respirator Rating 6
+Trodes
== Weapons ==
Fichetti Security 600
+Laser Sight
+Stock
Pool: 7 (9) Accuracy: 7 DV: 7P AP: - RC: 3
== Commlink ==
Renraku Sensei (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 3, FWL: 3)
Renraku Tsurugi (ATT: 6, SLZ: 5, DP: 5, FWL: 3)
+Vectored Signal Filter
+All Common Programs (800¥)
+All Hacking Programs (8000¥)
== Gear ==
Fake SIN (UCAS) Rating 4
+Fake License (Cyberdeck License) Rating 4
+Fake License (Concealed Carry Permit) Rating 4
+Fake License (Pistol License) Rating 4
Micro-Transceiver
Tag Eraser
Trodes (Stylish Hat)
== Vehicles ==
Ford Americar (Sedan)
+Sensor Array Rating 2
[/spoiler]
If the social skill pools seem low, it's because they aren't taking into account any of the variables of Tailored Pheremones or Online Fame, combined with Profiler (which can also cause a penalty).
Like I said, they're not that great in combat, but they can safely fulfill two other roles.
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Here, I made one mostly, using the basic Priority system.
I haven't picked negative qualities, bought contacts, or spent knowledge points yet. I also have over 20,000¥ remaining to spend. Only Karma spent is on Positive Qualities, and 2 Karma spent on buying Rank 1 of Hardware.
[spoiler]== Info ==
Name: Unnamed Character
Elf Movement: 4/8
Composure: 9
Street Cred: 0 Judge Intentions: 11
Notoriety: 0 Lift/Carry: 3 (15 kg/10 kg)
Public Awareness: 0 Memory: 11
Karma: 0 Nuyen: 23810
== Priorities ==
Metatype: D,1
Attributes: C,2
Special: E,0
Skills: B,3
Resources: A,4
== Attributes ==
BOD: 2 CHA: 6
AGI: 2 INT: 5
REA: 2 LOG: 6 (8)
STR: 1 WIL: 3
EDG: 1
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 4.0 Initiative: 7 + 2d6
Physical Damage Track: 9 Rigger Init: 7 + 2d6
Stun Damage Track: 10 Astral Init:
Physical: 2 Matrix AR Init: 7 + 2d6
Mental: 8 Matrix VR Cold Init: 5 + DP + 3d6
Social: 10 Matrix VR Hot Init: 5 + DP + 4d6
Astral: 10
== Active Skills ==
Computer (Matrix Search) Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 14 (16)
Con Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 11
Cybercombat Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 14
Electronic Warfare Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 14
Etiquette Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 11
Hacking Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 14
Hardware Base: 0 + Karma: 1 = 1 Pool: 9
Leadership Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 11
Negotiation Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 11
Pistols (Semi-Automatics) Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 7 (9)
== Knowledge Skills ==
(Unpurchased)
== Qualities ==
First Impression
Low-Light Vision
Online Fame
Overclocker
Profiler
== Lifestyles ==
Apartment (Low) 1 months
== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Boosted Reflexes
Cerebral Booster Rating 2
Tailored Pheromones Rating 3
== Armor ==
Actioneer Business Clothes 8
Helmet 2
+Camera Rating 6
+Image Link
+Flare Compensation
+Thermographic Vision
+Low Light
+Flare Compensation
+Respirator Rating 6
+Trodes
== Weapons ==
Fichetti Security 600
+Laser Sight
+Stock
Pool: 7 (9) Accuracy: 7 DV: 7P AP: - RC: 3
== Commlink ==
Renraku Sensei (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 3, FWL: 3)
Renraku Tsurugi (ATT: 6, SLZ: 5, DP: 5, FWL: 3)
+Vectored Signal Filter
+All Common Programs (800¥)
+All Hacking Programs (8000¥)
== Gear ==
Fake SIN (UCAS) Rating 4
+Fake License (Cyberdeck License) Rating 4
+Fake License (Concealed Carry Permit) Rating 4
+Fake License (Pistol License) Rating 4
Micro-Transceiver
Tag Eraser
Trodes (Stylish Hat)
== Vehicles ==
Ford Americar (Sedan)
+Sensor Array Rating 2
[/spoiler]
If the social skill pools seem low, it's because they aren't taking into account any of the variables of Tailored Pheromones or Online Fame, combined with Profiler (which can also cause a penalty).
Like I said, they're not that great in combat, but they can safely fulfill two other roles.
Thanks a lot. This has given me some food for thought. Looks like I'll have to pick up some books outside of the core. Perhaps I should take a look at the Technomancer?
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Technomancers got shafted in 5E.
Would recommend a lot of house rules to make it reasonable.
Saw a pdf someone posted called "hack the earth" forgot who.
Worth a look.
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Found it.
I think Moonshine Fox did a good job on this.
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Here, I made one mostly, using the basic Priority system.
I haven't picked negative qualities, bought contacts, or spent knowledge points yet. I also have over 20,000¥ remaining to spend. Only Karma spent is on Positive Qualities, and 2 Karma spent on buying Rank 1 of Hardware.
[spoiler]== Info ==
Name: Unnamed Character
Elf Movement: 4/8
Composure: 9
Street Cred: 0 Judge Intentions: 11
Notoriety: 0 Lift/Carry: 3 (15 kg/10 kg)
Public Awareness: 0 Memory: 11
Karma: 0 Nuyen: 23810
== Priorities ==
Metatype: D,1
Attributes: C,2
Special: E,0
Skills: B,3
Resources: A,4
== Attributes ==
BOD: 2 CHA: 6
AGI: 2 INT: 5
REA: 2 LOG: 6 (8)
STR: 1 WIL: 3
EDG: 1
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 4.0 Initiative: 7 + 2d6
Physical Damage Track: 9 Rigger Init: 7 + 2d6
Stun Damage Track: 10 Astral Init:
Physical: 2 Matrix AR Init: 7 + 2d6
Mental: 8 Matrix VR Cold Init: 5 + DP + 3d6
Social: 10 Matrix VR Hot Init: 5 + DP + 4d6
Astral: 10
== Active Skills ==
Computer (Matrix Search) Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 14 (16)
Con Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 11
Cybercombat Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 14
Electronic Warfare Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 14
Etiquette Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 11
Hacking Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 14
Hardware Base: 0 + Karma: 1 = 1 Pool: 9
Leadership Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 11
Negotiation Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 11
Pistols (Semi-Automatics) Base: 5 + Karma: 0 = 5 Pool: 7 (9)
== Knowledge Skills ==
(Unpurchased)
== Qualities ==
First Impression
Low-Light Vision
Online Fame
Overclocker
Profiler
== Lifestyles ==
Apartment (Low) 1 months
== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Boosted Reflexes
Cerebral Booster Rating 2
Tailored Pheromones Rating 3
== Armor ==
Actioneer Business Clothes 8
Helmet 2
+Camera Rating 6
+Image Link
+Flare Compensation
+Thermographic Vision
+Low Light
+Flare Compensation
+Respirator Rating 6
+Trodes
== Weapons ==
Fichetti Security 600
+Laser Sight
+Stock
Pool: 7 (9) Accuracy: 7 DV: 7P AP: - RC: 3
== Commlink ==
Renraku Sensei (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 3, FWL: 3)
Renraku Tsurugi (ATT: 6, SLZ: 5, DP: 5, FWL: 3)
+Vectored Signal Filter
+All Common Programs (800¥)
+All Hacking Programs (8000¥)
== Gear ==
Fake SIN (UCAS) Rating 4
+Fake License (Cyberdeck License) Rating 4
+Fake License (Concealed Carry Permit) Rating 4
+Fake License (Pistol License) Rating 4
Micro-Transceiver
Tag Eraser
Trodes (Stylish Hat)
== Vehicles ==
Ford Americar (Sedan)
+Sensor Array Rating 2
[/spoiler]
If the social skill pools seem low, it's because they aren't taking into account any of the variables of Tailored Pheremones or Online Fame, combined with Profiler (which can also cause a penalty).
Like I said, they're not that great in combat, but they can safely fulfill two other roles.
Nice. You really want Data Jacks and Antenna for Noise Reduction, you've got the cash. I'd also go with Sleeping Tiger Armor from Run and Gun if you can, and dump the Pistol for Sneaking (Urban). If you're playing the Face/Decker you're going to be pretty much playing a solo game until someone rolls initiative, you can take a break then. : )
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Here's a technomancer face.
Turned out more middle of the road than I expected
[spoiler]
Unnamed Hero
METATYPE: HUMAN
B 2, A 3, R 2, S 1, W 4, L 4, I 4, C 6, ESS 6, EDG 3, R 4
Condition Monitor (P/S): 9 / 10
Armor: 12
Limits: Physical 2, Mental 6, Social 10
Physical Initiative: 6+1D6
Matrix Initiative: 8+4D6
Active Skills: Acting Group 5, Compiling 4, Computer (Matrix Search +2) 5, Cybercombat 6, Electronic Warfare 4, Hacking (vs. Hosts +2) 6, Hardware 1, Influence Group 5, Intimidation 5, Perception (Visual +2) 6, Pilot Ground Craft 1, Pistols (Semi-Automatics +2) 4, Registering 4, Software 4
Knowledge Skills: Matrix Design 5, Matrix Security Procedures 5, Psychology 4, Seattle 4
Languages: English N
Qualities: Allergy, Common (Mild): Soy, Code of Honor: White Hats, the Code of the Hacker (10dicepool vs. 4), Codeslinger: Hack on the Fly, First Impression, Profiler, Technomancer
Complex Forms: Resonance Spike, Transcendent Grid
Vehicles:
Dodge Xenon [Handling 3/2, Speed 4/3, Accel 2, Body 8, Armor 6, Pilot 2, Sensor 2, Seats 4]
Gear:
Gridlink
Linguistics: English (local language)
Linguistics: Japanese (Manufacturer's Language)
Gear:
Actioneer Business Clothes
Concealable Holster
Executive Suite w/ Custom Fit, Increase Social Limit by 2, Newest Model
Identity: Specify Name w/ Fake License: Driving (3), Fake License: Pistols (3), Fake SIN (3), (1 month) Low Lifestyle
Nightshade/Moonsilver w/ Custom Fit, Increase Social Limit by 1
Quick-Draw Holster
Transys Avalon
Weapons:
Colt America L36 [Light Pistol, Acc 7, DV 7P, AP –, SA, 11 (c)] w/ (110x) Regular Ammo, (2x) Spare Clips
Colt Government 2066 [Heavy Pistol, Acc 7, DV 7P, AP -1, SA, 14 (c)] w/ Laser Sight, (280x) Regular Ammo, (3x) Spare Clips
Contacts:
Fixer (Connection 2, Loyalty 2)
Infobroker (Connection 2, Loyalty 2)
Mr. Johnson (Connection 2, Loyalty 2)
Street Doc (Connection 4, Loyalty 2)
Starting ¥: 1,675 + (3D6 × 60)¥
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Shadowrun © 2005-2016 The Topps Company, Inc. All rights reserved. Shadowrun is a registered trademark of The Topps Company, Inc.
[/spoiler]
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Talked it over with the GM. He skipped over the Technomancer chapter. No one else in the party is familiar with it either. So I'm going to skip it in order to not slow things down. So Decker with Face skills it is.
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Nice. You really want Data Jacks and Antenna for Noise Reduction, you've got the cash. I'd also go with Sleeping Tiger Armor from Run and Gun if you can, and dump the Pistol for Sneaking (Urban). If you're playing the Face/Decker you're going to be pretty much playing a solo game until someone rolls initiative, you can take a break then. : )
Those augments would be good. Though the Antenna is a bit unsubtle and makes it pretty clear you're a decker since most people wouldn't replace their ears with antenna. With a jack, Signal Scrubber, and the Vectored Signal Filter, you'll be fine. Noise isn't that big a deal.
Armor choice is spot on, better than the one I arbitrarily picked. I dunno about sneaking, since it's usually something that causes a lot of problems if you screw up. I would, however, replace Pistols with Automatics (SMG) or something though... Easier to hit with, allows suppressive fire if you just can't hit anything.
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Obvious cyberware is fairly common, shouldn't be an issue, and the Antenna do have a retractable option. And double digit Noise Reduction is a good thing. Lets you play VR decker from your car (it's got an auto pilot, just have it driving in circle). Most of the time I say go with AR decking and be there with the team, but in this characters case, I'd avoid that whenever possible. Might just be me.
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An ODD way to go would be to use magic instead of tech. Noise reduction is an issue...
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An ODD way to go would be to use magic instead of tech. Noise reduction is an issue...
As long as you're not requiring top dice pools, using a MysAd is a good way to get around the "too many requirements to handle them all" of building a Face/Decker.
First, the MysAd will use spells in combat, thus you can use both AGI and STR as dump stats. This means that with a Priority of A in Magic and B in Attributes (20) you can have:
BOD/REA 3, AGI/STR 1, all mental 5.
Note that we use 5 as the top Mental stats because we will use a lot of Increase Attribute buffs, and since you can start with a total of 50 Karma (after getting 25 pts of Negative Qualities), and need to spend 30 Karma on your Adept Power Points, you have only 20 left for Positive Qualities... which gets you Focused Concentration 5. So you need your stats to be limited to 5 so you can buff them (although you COULD raise 1-2 of them to 6, and trust a Force 6 Spirit of Man to buff them, instead).
Second, you can Sustain one spell and have a Spirit of Man sustain another, giving you two buff spells at a time, plus additional from a Sustaining Focus. Examples are:
Decking: Psyche & All Jacked Up for INT, Increase LOG and Increase WIL, give you a 7/9/9 in INT/LOG/WIL.
Face: Increase CHA, and False Impression to hide it. Gives you a 9 CHA.
Combat: Increase Reflexes (only one buff unless you use Foci, since you want the spirit free to fight for you rather than busy Sustaining a buff spell).
Now, because you're depending on Increase Reflexes, you don't need the Improve Reflexes power from the Adept side, so you have a lot of points to spend on Cool Resolve. Let's say 3 levels of Cool Resolve.
So you're decking with 9 Logic, and your Charisma skills are at 12 dice. Putting a 5 in Hacking/Computer and a 1 in all Social skills gives you 13-14 dice for the main skills. If these pools are good enough, the only real weakness is the low (1-2) rating that you will have in the backup Decking skills (EW, Hardware, Software).
Money wise, since we used A and B, we have C available, which allows for a Rating 2 Cyberdeck. But you never expected to start with a Rating 3 if you're mixing a Face and a Decker, right?
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We could go down to wealth E by taking in dept 35k then buying a hack comm (about 35k for a A:1, S:3, DP:5, FW:5)
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We could go down to wealth E by taking in dept 35k then buying a hack comm (about 35k for a A:1, S:3, DP:5, FW:5)
Um, I hope your team is getting a lot of money then.
5,250 a month minimum or a meeting with guys with bats (if you're lucky)
Better option is buying a NetNinja, adding the attack attribute, and a R3 Stealth toggle.
It comes to 30,000 and 2 electronic parts.
Yeah, you're still in debt, but not as bad.
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We could go down to wealth E by taking in dept 35k then buying a hack comm (about 35k for a A:1, S:3, DP:5, FW:5)
Um, I hope your team is getting a lot of money then.
5,250 a month minimum or a meeting with guys with bats (if you're lucky)
Better option is buying a NetNinja, adding the attack attribute, and a R3 Stealth toggle.
It comes to 30,000 and 2 electronic parts.
Yeah, you're still in debt, but not as bad.
Yeah, I agree, wealth E is too far. You could do it at wealth D, and still afford armor / weapons / fake ID, though a rating 1 cyberdeck or lower is a bit low for a Decker. I use it with Technomancers, but they have Machine Sprites to boost its limits.
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Why is a Technomancer getting a Cyberdeck, Coyote?
Just curious. 8)
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Why is a Technomancer getting a Cyberdeck, Coyote?
Just curious. 8)
A cyberdeck can use Machine Sprites to get Teamwork tests on all uses of that cyberdeck. And one service is indefinite, so you don't have to use the "petnomancer" style of Technomancers, where you use Sprites to help you with tests, but each help uses up one service. So the "petnomancer" style is really busy with dice rolling in between adventures to refresh the services, and has lots of bookkeeping to do during an adventure to keep track of services used. So, by using a cyberdeck, you get a lot of dice boosts without the hassle. You do have to deal with lower limits, but even a Rating 1 deck from the book has Sleaze of 4, which can be improved to 5 with a program, and then having 3 Sprites aiding improves it to 8 for most purposes. So you actually play with a limit equivalent to a Rating 3 deck, while getting easier use of services than you would if you ran as a pure Technomancer with a lot of Sprites. So you're easily hitting 20 dice with a 8 limit, as a starting character. That's really hard to do as a pure Technomancer (the dice moreso than the limit). Yes, it costs $50k or so, but IMO it's worth it.
Basically, I see sprite-assisted decking as the "loaded for bear" version of Technomancers, and the pure version as unarmed PhysAds... less effective, but also less obvious. If you have the choice, go with the deck, but the naked hacking is always a backup option.
Oh, and with Sprite-assisted cyberlimbs, you can also be shooting with 20 dice on a one-handed weapon. Or a Monowhip. Or a drone. It's why I don't think that Technomancers are at all bad... they just have to be played with a lot of electronic equipment (decks, drones, cyberarms, skillwires, medikits, etc) in order to be good.
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I have to try that one day, thanks for the idea Coyote.
Do you have any parts of your build done so we can see it Aazen?
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You want to play a Technomancer with a deck and not do much with Sprites...? There is an Archetype for that :P
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Thanks for the feedback everyone. This looks like it might be a fun setup. I have a rough draft after going back and forth with the GM and the rest of the team. Time and karma will help me shore up any weakness.