[ZeConster]

My brother plans to start a Shadowrun campaign, and one of the players is considering a character with both Astral Hazing and Counterspelling. However, we're not 100% sure how those two things combine. I'm thinking they won't, based on the following:

• Astral Hazing says its background count also impairs the character's actions if they're Awakened.
• The character's planned Magic is less than 5, so it would be reduced to 0 or less by a background count of 4.
• Street Magic says that if your Magic is reduced to 0 or less by a background count, you can't use any magical abilities within the area - similarly, core says you can't use Magic skills unless you have a Magic of 1 or more.
• Street Magic specifically lists Counterspelling as a Magical skill in the Ally Spirit Abilities section.

Am I correct in assuming that unless your Magic is still 1 or more after being affected by background count, you cannot use Counterspelling at all? Or am I missing something?

Another question I have is about the Cleansing metamagic. Could a character theoretically use Cleansing to temporarily decrease the background count from their own Astral Hazing quality, since Astral Hazing counts as an aspected domain? (Again, possilby requiring your modified Magic rating to be 1+ first.)

[Falconer]

No he can't do anything magical at all.   In fact, it's not supposed to be up to him to pick negative changeling qualities at all.

You found many of the correct bit... all those skills require a magic attribute of 1 or higher.    If you read further in that section... if a mage goes Magic 0 (temporariliry or permanently)... those skills stay but are only considered knowledge skills, not active skills anymore.   So he can't even provide counterspelling protection to allies with only the skill.

Cleansing requires that he astrally perceive.   If his magic is 0 he cannot astrally perceive.

It also requires  Magic + Counterspelling roll... well his magic is 0... and he can't use counterspelling skill because his magic is zero.

Also... his maximum initiate grade is equal to his magic score.   His maximum available metamagics are equal to his magic + initiate grade.   So if his magic is 0... he has zero metamagics available to him so no access to Cleansing.


I *HEAVILY* recommend looking in runners companion...
page 74.. changeling...
"While the player may pick the Positive qualities for the character, the gamemaster picks chooses the Negative qualities".

IE: it's not up to your brother to pick that quality in the first place, it's for you to do it if you think it fits.   That's one of the most commonly forgotten controls on changelings.   And astral hazing is one of the most questionable 'negative' (as in it's normally a huge positive for anyone who wants it) qualities in the game.  Generally the guys who take astral hazing also take arcane arrestor and go down a mundane path... and only use the qualities to give awakened a big finger.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

No he can't do anything magical at all.   In fact, it's not supposed to be up to him to pick negative changeling qualities at all.

I *HEAVILY* recommend looking in runners companion...
page 74.. changeling...
"While the player may pick the Positive qualities for the character, the gamemaster picks chooses the Negative qualities".

IE: it's not up to your brother to pick that quality in the first place, it's for you to do it if you think it fits.   That's one of the most commonly forgotten controls on changelings.   And astral hazing is one of the most questionable 'negative' (as in it's normally a huge positive for anyone who wants it) qualities in the game.  Generally the guys who take astral hazing also take arcane arrestor and go down a mundane path... and only use the qualities to give awakened a big finger.

That's only for the Dormant Metagenetics quality, which is similar to the Latent ___ qualities in that the qualities manifest after character creation.  If the character starts as a changeling, he gets to choose both positive and negative qualities.

But yes, you have to have Magic 1+ remaining (after the background count) to use any magical abilities.  One notable exception:  Filtering metamagic, which states that the (positive) BC does not affect Magic for its use.

[Falconer]

Page 73...
", though gamemasters may choose to take on Metagenic Negative Quality Selection to ensure balance,"

So no, it is not purely up to the character to do whatever he likes by the rulebook.   The GM has EXPLICIT warrant y the rules to do it instead.   Not just the normal implicit GM's approval.


Good catch on me citing the wrong page  though, thanks  for pointing out the error.  I just went looking for the right sentence and picked the wrong one.

[RHat]

However, it was inaccurate to say that the player isn't supposed to pick them.  The GM can choose to do that, but unless the GM has made and declared that choice it is to be assumed that the player does.

[Glyph]

The only way to be a mage with astral hazing is to have a starting Magic of 5 or more, which will then be reduced by 4 points.  Such a mage would be very resistant to spells (spell defense is purely a skill roll, so a Magic of 1 is fine - don't try dispelling, though, or you are liable to have to soak physical Drain), but have a very limited offense.  Generally not worth it.  With a Magic of 4 or less, it flat out doesn't work.  Your brother either needs to bite the bullet and get a Magic of 5 or more, or (even better) re-think the concept.  If he wants an anti-mage, there are better ways to get there.

[dertechie]

Of course, starting with a Magic of 5 then requires an explanation of how you managed to train your way up to Magic 5 with a Rating 4 BGC around you at all times, unless you SURGEd recently.  Even assuming the BGC is a recent phenomenon, I'd honestly expect a mage that's exuding a BGC that high to be going rather mad every time he opens himself to the Astral just from seeing his own aura twisting the mana around him, and that's in addition to the "WTF just happened to me?!?" of normal SURGE shenanigans.  Other Awakened probably won't be too keen on being within 6 meters of him either.

Of course, if he wants to play a mage that's going gradually (or rapidly) insane from the fact that he literally warps the Astral around him (and not in a good way), then go nuts (pun not intended).

[Michael Chandra]

Uhm, Glyph, Falconer, I'm the brother in question and I am the GM, not the player. One of the interested players sent me a character concept with both Ware and Astral Hazing. While I was out at a museum I realised Astral Hazing and his low Magic would likely clash, so I called up Conster to ask him to check things for me, hence this topic. I drew similar conclusions but so far the player's disagreeing, partially due to vague language and partially thanks to a discussion on Dump Shock where they never even touched the idea of Magic hitting zero, most likely because it never crossed their mind players might have less than 5 Magic and still take this negative quality.

Thanks for pointing out I technically got a say in the qualities. The player just went Surge on his character concept and I never read into it much so missed that point. Still, I'll leave the choice to him, as long as he keeps possible consequences in mind. The same goes for his recent intent to have both Strength and Charisma on 1, without training in Athletics and Social Skills.

The character concept has high Assessing, Astral Combat and Counterspelling. He's produced as a lab rat and gets away, hence why he's not insane yet. However, the character also has Cyberware and Bioware, decreasing his essence to 3.4. As a result, his Magic goes from 5 to 2 before Astral Hazing, to -2 after.

Here's Astral Hazing's text: "This astral haze affects all attempts to cast magic on, at, or in the vicinity of the character. Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number of meters from her body equal to her Essence; this background count also impairs her own actions if the character is Awakened."

Italic is what the player stressed as why he reads Astral Hazing as only damaging active spellcasting and not his ability to Counterspell (not Dispel), Banish and Astral Combat. Bold is what I pointed at in return. Page 118 of Street Magic mentions that if your Magic drops to zero due to a Background Count, you lose all Magical Ability. Page 177 of SR4a mentions that the loss of magical ability caused by a Magic of 0 means you can't use any magical skills except as Knowledge skills.

So basically he assumes the short summary line is the only case in which the effect applies, whereas I argue that the more detailed explanation that follows, as well as on Page 118 of Street Magic (and page 177 of SR4a) makes clear what the exact way is that Astral Hazing affects gameplay.

(A similar situation is where the short explanation on Hardened Armor in Immunity to Normal Weapons leads people to argue about whether it works exactly like Hardened Armor or uses the shorter, less detailed, explanation.)

- - -

I'm not sure if a 'temporary' drop in Magic would limit your Initiation grade, by the way. Would that mean a Mage in a Background Count would temporarily lose part of their Initiation if their original Initiation Grade is too close to their Magic? That WOULD be a nice way to counteract people who stick to 6 Magic and initiate a lot to get a lot of metamagic benefits at their disposal. You walk around in the Barrens much? Congrats, you get to turn in your latest initiation benefits and count as a few grades lower for your Masking effect and such.

[RHat]

It explicitly references the Background Count rules and makes no specific exceptions.  Has your player read the background count rules?

[Michael Chandra]

Not sure if he read them entirely, but I quoted the parts of Background Count regarding reducing Magic to 0. It was after that that he said he reads that italic part as that since it says it affects attempts to cast magic on, at or in the vicinity, he thinks that unless his character tries to cast magic he won't be affected by the Haze's reduction of Magic. So basically because the short intro-info specifically talks about casting, he thinks it only applies when casting so wouldn't affect Counterspelling, Assensing, Astral Perception and Astral Combat.
I quoted the bolded parts back to him with a detailed explanation and will check whether/what he replied at a time where I had a good night rest.

By the way, as a side note, how WOULD Astral Hazing work with Astral Combat? Does it haze around your body, around your spirit, around both? Would the haze around your body reduce your Magic but not reduce any attacks aimed at your Astral Form if it's not within the haze around your body, thus only penalizing you but not your opponents if you travel around, or would you bring it with you and still benefit from its defensive influence?

[mtfeeney = Baron]

You should explain to the player that he's drawing a line between background count and astral hazing that doesn't exist.  Astral hazing is a negative quality that gives you a +4 background count.  It's not a background count that's created only when he tries to cast magic spells... It's always there.  As they already stated, the background count would reduce his magic to 0.  0 Magic means no magic skills.  As for the first line...  The general opinion of these forums is that instant spells cast at someone within the astral haze aren't affected at all, since the background count rules are very specific about the effects.  It reduces magic of people inside, it reduces force of spirits, sustained spells, anchored spells, quickened spells, mana barriers, etc.  I don't tend to agree with this, but I'm the extreme minority.

Astral combat(a la astral perception) and hazing?  It reduces the force of spirits and sustained spells and such.  For magic cast at you from a distance, see my above paragraph.

Astral combat(a la astral projection) and hazing?  It doesn't address this issue, so it'd be up to you as the GM.  I would personally say that the hazing is linked to your spirit, so if you projected...  you carry the BGC(background count) with you.

Keep in mind, your last sentence is the biggest problem here.  Considering this a defensive influence in the slightest is a huge problem.  Any perceived benefits should be minimal.  Want healed?  It won't work.  Want increased reflexes?  It won't work.  Want to work with mages?  They won't.  Want to be a mage?  Ok, you need at least 5 Magic, and that leaves you as an effective-1 Magic magician.  You're about as magical as a puppy.  Force 2 spells would be overcasting.  Your best stunbolt would deal a max of 4 stun damage.  In other words, he's absolutely useless.

[RHat]

Not sure if he read them entirely, but I quoted the parts of Background Count regarding reducing Magic to 0. It was after that that he said he reads that italic part as that since it says it affects attempts to cast magic on, at or in the vicinity, he thinks that unless his character tries to cast magic he won't be affected by the Haze's reduction of Magic. So basically because the short intro-info specifically talks about casting, he thinks it only applies when casting so wouldn't affect Counterspelling, Assensing, Astral Perception and Astral Combat.
I quoted the bolded parts back to him with a detailed explanation and will check whether/what he replied at a time where I had a good night rest.

Get the player to read the Background Count rules in full.  Then point out that the Astral Hazing text doesn't actually alter the rules of Background Counts - the fluff section references some of the effects of Background Counts, but nowhere are any of the effects removed.

[Falconer]

Well a bit of a disjointed reply... cited numerous points in the rule book which say the same thing....

Rhat has the right of it... the Astral hazing rules are simply a lot of fluff... which state... Create a +4 BGC... now go read the rules for BGC's.    (p112 street magic... he pollutes both the physical and astral planes with it even if he is only on the physical plane.   "so if an astral area is polluted by a background count or aspected towards a particular type of magic, the physical mana in that area will be the same.")

Anyhow more sources citing your authority/interpretation....
If his magic is reduced to 0... he can't engage in astral combat at all.   That's the long and short of it.  He can't astrally perceive or project which is the prerequisite for astral combat!

You need to look at page 122 of the core rulebook....
Astral combat skill... "only characters capable of astral perception may take OR USE this skill".

There are similar notes on that page regarding skills like counterspelling etc...  at the top of the magic skills section "Unless otherwise noted in the skill description only characters with ... and a Magic attribute of 1 or greater may may take or use Magic skills."


Page 177 SR4a... also includes this nugget...
"If a character's magic is ever reduced to zero, she can no longer perform any kind of magic.    She retains all magical skills and knowledge, but lacks the ability to use them.   Active skills become knowledge skills."

EG: the players magic is 0... he has 'knowledge' skill 'counterspelling' he doesn't have 'active skill' counterspelling so long as it is zero.



Your player is half right... the way SR magic works... the BGC only impairs the ability of something inside of it to gather and shape mana... before sending it at his target.   (this is stated in numerous points in all editions of the game).

The problem is he always stands at the heart and has no ability to do anything magical at all when his magic is reduced to 0.  And he's trying to use skills which outright state they cannot be used while at magic 0.

As for the rest... yes if his magic is reduced... he loses access to his initiate grades.
p198 SR4a
"If a character's Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiate and the metamagic she gained with it".

If it's a permanent loss of magic then it's a permanent loss of initiate grade and metamagic... if it's temporary... it's only not available until something removes the condition causing the BGC.   See page 120 street magic which lists a grade 5 initiate magic 11 operating in a -9 BGC... note he's still a grade 5 initiate even if he's reduced temporarily to initiate grade 2 with his magic of 2.

street magic p52... amends this with an optional rule for learning metamagics without initiating.    Sets the cap on metamagics at Magic + initiation (instead of just automatically knowing 1 metamagic per initiation).

[Michael Chandra]

Another question: Say I got a Magician with Magic 7. In the Astral Hazing, their Magic is reduced to 3. They then cast a Health Spell at Force 5, score 3 hits. The spell, while being sustained, then drops to Force 1 due to the -4 on sustained spells. Does this affect the maximum hits the spell can have?

The same basically goes for Illusion spells. If its force is (temporarily) reduced from 6 to 2 and it had 4 nethits, would it then have 0, 2 or 4 nethits left for its effect?

[mtfeeney = Baron]

No, the effects(a la net hits) aren't diminished, just the Force of the spell.