[martinchaen]

So, I've been reviewing options for my heavily cybered samurai (full cybernetic arms and legs), and at least in this case it seems Platelet Factories would be utterly useless.

Even completely naked, my character has 9 armor. The highest AP available is -8 (monowhip). With a relatively cheap piece of armor like an armor vest (500 nuyen) I'd have 18 armor; with an armor jacket (12) and a helmet (+2) he'd have 23 armor, more than enough to ensure that any damage taken would be stun, as any physical damage would be enough to kill the character outright. And, this character is not geared for max armor; with four limbs you can get 12 armor right off the bat, bringing the total to around 30 out of chargen.

Now, with the above in mind (heavily cybered street sams with high armor), is it just me or are Platelet factories utterly useless for such a character?

With 23 armor, the character could be hit by a monowhip (23-8) and still roll 15 dice; with a condition monitor of "only" 14 any damage taken would have to equal or exceed 15, enough to put the character directly into overflow even with Platelet Factories (which would reduce the physical damage by 1).

When do you think Platelet Factories would be useful? Low-armor characters such as deckers, technomancers, and face-types? Others?

And a follow-up; what, besides Pain Editor and stim patches, would be the best way to keep a high-armor character in the fight?

[Xenon]

Weapons that deal physical damage will only deal stun damage if their modified damage value is less than the modified armor value.

A monowhip attack with 4 net hits have a modified damage value of 12+4=16P
With 23 base armor you have a modified armor value of 23-8=15

DV16 >= 15; thus the monofilament whip will deal physical damage.



You need Used Grade Cyberlimbs to buy rating 3 armor at chargen (due to availability)



The best way to keep a high-armor character in the fight would be high logic + willpower to resist the urge to suicide (manipulation spells)


edited because glitch when doing math before lunch

[martinchaen]

Umm, 23-8 = 15, last I checked

And yes, Used cyberlimbs are indeed necessary.

Wait, what does high Logic do? I thought you only got to use Willpower to resist spells?

[Michael Chandra]

23-8=15 means you tie vs the damage, and thus the damage pierces. Meanwhile, a Ranger Arms with APDS has 14/-9, meaning 1 net hit puts it at piercing up to 24 armor. But yes, at really high armor, Physical damage ain't the problem. It still is a bigger threat than in SR4, but if you go high enough it likely will never matter.

Versus Manipulation Spells you roll Logic+Willpower-Force dice to resist and to weaken it.

[Unahim]

Note that whether it is physical or stun is decided before you roll your damage resistance, so you very well may pull the damage out of overflow with that roll, making the Platelet Factories useful for just such a purpose.

[martinchaen]

Unahim, true, but for an armor centric character 24 armor is entry level; once in-game, all it takes is full body armor and a helmet to reach 30+ armor, at which point it takes an assault cannon or missile launcher to pierce that armor. And at this point, you're likely dead no matter what you do (unless you have criminally high edge and are lucky to boot). Reducing 1 point of damage is unlikely to matter much in these instances.

[Michael Chandra]

Only a Cyberlimb-Armor character, with all the consequences you get for building one, will have that much armor. 20+ is high-level for others. And only really high weapons would pierce the armor and do physical damage, yes, but stun damage still knocks people out. If you have 30 armor and 6 body, then get hit by that 14/-9 at 1 net hit, you'll get hit by an average 6 damage.

[martinchaen]

Michael; not true. While cyberlimbs are an effective but costly way of obtaining up to 12 points of armor, it is achievable through other means as well.

72k nuyen and 5 Essence gets you four cyberlimbs (all used) with +12 armor and +4 physical condition boxes.
31.5k nuyen and 3.75 Essence gets you Titanium Bone Lacing and Dermal Plating R4 (both used) for a total of +7 Armor (and +3 Body for purposes of damage resist, which is arguably better than armor because it cannot be pierced).
33k nuyen and 2.75 Essence gets you Orthoskin Rating 4 and Bone Density Augmentation Rating 4, which gives +4 Body for purposes of resisting damage and +4 armor

So, cyberlimbs are not the only way to go, but they do have other uses.

And yes, stun damage will knock you the hell out; so the question remains, are there other ways of dealing with stun except a pain editor and/or stim patches? I guess you could always add even more armor, and stock up on edge...

[Michael Chandra]

31.5k nuyen and 3.75 Essence gets you Titanium Bone Lacing and Dermal Plating R4 (both used) for a total of +7 Armor (and +3 Body for purposes of damage resist, which is arguably better than armor because it cannot be pierced).
33k nuyen and 2.75 Essence gets you Orthoskin Rating 4 and Bone Density Augmentation Rating 4, which gives +4 Body for purposes of resisting damage and +4 armor.

That doesn't equal an Armor Rating of 30+ though. FBA+Helmet is 18, the highest you get with what you posted is 25 armor.

[martinchaen]

Body 4, Toughness 1, Armor Jacket 12, +10 armor from the first (or 8 for the second), equals 27 in the first case and 25 in the latter.

Swap armor jacket for full body armor and a helmet, and you get 4+1+15+3+10 or 8 = 33 or 31...

Maybe I didn't sufficiently differentiate between Armor and Damage Resist pool. High AV at character creation is indeed between 18-26 (12 armor from jacket, 4-12 from implants, and another 2 from helmet), and then you add Body and any other dice for damage resist.

[JackVII]

Since Armor is the thing that distinguishes between taking Stun or Physical, I thought that was what the conversation was about?

[Michael Chandra]

Ah. You're talking about soak dice. Yes, I assumed you were deliberately only focusing on the Armor part of the soak equation, especially since you were talking about stun vs physical damage thanks to Armor.

[martinchaen]

My bad, I forgot that it's DV, not soak dice that matters. Carry on!

[Xenon]

Weapons that deal physical damage will only deal stun damage if their modified damage value is less than the modified armor value.

[DigitalZombie]

I agree in that platelets are indeed less useful for high armored personnel. But its worth to remember that certain spells and poisons will be able to deal physical damage while ignoring the armour value. (and the GM might be more inclined to hit you with those effects if he cant challenge you with bullets).