[Banshee]

A fix that makes vehicles less 'unsafe at any speed'.  Have you done the math on a Ford Americar driving at a very modest 30km/hour? If a control test is required for any reason (say a 'Runner dashing in front of the car, or having a tire shot out) even a reasonably good 'average driver' will almost certainly crash (threshold of 5), and the autopilot likely has no chance at all.  And the Ares Roadmaster?  A death trap even for the average rigger at  highway speeds (threshold 13).  I find it breaks my immersion so badly that at the moment I just don't want to deal with vehicles or drones at all.

Yes that why my OP says... "other than fix the mess in the CRB"

[Beta]

I don't think autosofts are limited to the pilot rating in 6e?  (maybe I just missed it).  But I was assuming you could have pilot 5 or something running (mathematically possible to succeed, but very unlikely)

[adzling]

Rigger need rules for running a chase scene.
The ones in core are crap.
The only ones that I have seen work are the Deck based ones where random events and obstacles are pulled from a deck/ table.
Without good chase rules wheelman riggers are mostly irrelevant.

[Xenon]

Without good chase rules wheelman riggers are mostly irrelevant.

Yeah... This is something I feel no edition of shadowrun got right (so far) :-(

[Hobbes]

Late entry.  A way for Riggers to get Sleaze without investing in a Cyberdeck.  Or some way of increasing Run Silent, Logic + Sleaze by a meaningful amount.

I'm thinking something like 5th's Smoke and Mirrors but only runs if the Persona has a - for Sleaze.  No idea how the fluff would work for such a thing.

Sneaky recon drones are really not so sneaky when the 3 Intuition, 3 Computer skill Wage slave has a better than 50/50 shot of spotting the ICON. 

[Xenon]

Late entry.  A way for Riggers to get Sleaze without investing in a Cyberdeck.  Or some way of increasing Run Silent, Logic + Sleaze by a meaningful amount.

I'm thinking something like 5th's Smoke and Mirrors but only runs if the Persona has a - for Sleaze.  No idea how the fluff would work for such a thing.

Sneaky recon drones are really not so sneaky when the 3 Intuition, 3 Computer skill Wage slave has a better than 50/50 shot of spotting the ICON.

Instead of using Sleaze as a mechanic, perhaps use Noise.
Increasing noise for opponents (which make his drones harder to notice) while reducing noise within the rigger network (which let him extend range).
Messing with airwaves and communications in general feels more.... 'Rigger'-ish. And appropriate for a RCC.
Similar effect

[Hobbes]

Tricky.  Not sure how you'd be able to do that without blanketing a whole block with Noise though.  Kind of the opposite of sneaking.  I mean, sure nobody can hear you tippy toe on by if there is a Jet engine running in the driveway.  But won't folks want to know why is there a Jet engine running in the driveway? 

Jammers and the Jam Signals action already generate Noise, but really aren't terribly useful for hiding remote Drone Icons.  But it would certainly achieve the desired mechanical effect, I just don't know how you do it in game. 

Something that generates Noise vs Matrix Perception targeting a Riggers PAN and it's associated Icons would work though.  Fluff it as some kind of ECM stealth field? 

Anyway.  Sneaky Drones that are hard to spot in the Matrix.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Anyway.  Sneaky Drones that are hard to spot in the Matrix.

Well, that's what running wireless-off does.. make your drone exceptionally hard to spot on the matrix

Of course no jumped-in or remote control or RCC sharing, but you make your choices about tradeoffs.


But yes, I agree Riggers need some running silent love.  Shouldn't have to be wireless-off or nothing.

[Michael Chandra]

A fix that makes vehicles less 'unsafe at any speed'.  Have you done the math on a Ford Americar driving at a very modest 30km/hour? If a control test is required for any reason (say a 'Runner dashing in front of the car, or having a tire shot out) even a reasonably good 'average driver' will almost certainly crash (threshold of 5), and the autopilot likely has no chance at all.  And the Ares Roadmaster?  A death trap even for the average rigger at  highway speeds (threshold 13).  I find it breaks my immersion so badly that at the moment I just don't want to deal with vehicles or drones at all.

I am now utterly confused. Threshold 13? I thought Speed Intervals were a dice penalty, not a threshold increase.

Also, note that a GM has the right to change a threshold. Having a tire shot out on a sturdy car seems like a solid reason to make it a threshold-1 test instead. Also, that's why proper runners get run-flat tires.

(But yeah, that would be why Autopilots don't bother trying to deal evading people that run in front of them. And why my own houserule halves speed interval penalties on unopposed tests, because the double-whammy is too big a penalty in my taste.)

[Beta]

A fix that makes vehicles less 'unsafe at any speed'.  Have you done the math on a Ford Americar driving at a very modest 30km/hour? If a control test is required for any reason (say a 'Runner dashing in front of the car, or having a tire shot out) even a reasonably good 'average driver' will almost certainly crash (threshold of 5), and the autopilot likely has no chance at all.  And the Ares Roadmaster?  A death trap even for the average rigger at  highway speeds (threshold 13).  I find it breaks my immersion so badly that at the moment I just don't want to deal with vehicles or drones at all.

I am now utterly confused. Threshold 13? I thought Speed Intervals were a dice penalty, not a threshold increase.

Apparently I just can't read.  I think I'd carried over the thought from fifth that certain things modify the handling threshold and just didn't read the 6e rules carefully enough to notice the change.  (And oddly when in a PBP game where we were feeling out the rules and I worked through all of that the way that I thought it worked, nobody noticed the error.  I guess others hadn't read those carefully either?)

[Xenon]

Well, that's what running wireless-off does..

Rules on if and in that case how to resolve wireless-off drones is actually something that should be included in the Rigger supplement :-)

(can they be voice commanded? if so can you use a voice modulator or recording to spoof the voice of the owner? is it still a minor action? can you control multiple drones with one verbal command even if you are not using a RCC? is there a risk that the on-board autopilot become confused, abort and fly 'home'? can you establish a direct connection to them and still hack them if you get close enough? loads of questions that need to be answered if this is possible....)

Edit;
On the same theme. Can you jump into a vehicle that is offline (if you sit in the driver seat and connect to it via a wire). How does grid-guide and other vehicles treat you if you are wireless disabled? Is it even legal to drive while wireless disabled? Will you attract attention from traffic control? Will your vehicle become immune to hacking? If not connected to the grid, how long does it take until your vehicle run out of battery?

[Hobbes]

Running a drone Wireless off is niche use.  Certainly works, but then, why bother with a Rigger?  The mage can run a drone wireless off as well as the Rigger. 

Several drones are clearly intended to be "Bugs" as they're, well, Bugs.  Really shouldn't be an easy Matrix Perception test to find them when they're being used by PCs exactly as they're intended. 

5th edition Riggers could get enough Matrix Attributes / Sleaze to sneak past anyone other than "Real" Matrix security, and they had a shot at sneaking past them.  Mostly due to how broken Smoke and Mirrors was, but, whatever. 

Not saying re-print Smoke and Mirrors but Rigger ECM stuff should be able to get past Matrix Security.  And sneaky Drones are probably just my own pet-peave.  I'm sure there are other areas where Riggers could use more Matrix counter measures. 

[Xenon]

Something that would be good to include is a bit more detail about different options we have to override control (if there is such thing in SR6 that is)



It seem to be clear that;
- You can't use Control Device if someone else is jumped in.
- You can't Jump In if someone else is already jumped in.

If someone else is jumped in then your attempt to control will automatically fail.


What is less clear is what happen if someone is just using manual control or regular remote control (nobody else is jumped in).

• Drone already have a driver/operator so any attempt (no matter method, even jumping in) to override control / take over the control will fail.
• Drone already have a driver/operator so any attempt to override control / take over the control will fail, except if you jump in (jump in > all).
• Drone already have a driver/operator so any attempt to override control / take over the control will fail, unless you use a control method of a higher 'control order' (jump in > remote control > manual control, as it used to work in SR5).

If the intent is that remote control can be used to override manual control (like it did in SR5) then it could also be good to include a manual override accessory (like we had in Rigger 5.0)

[Chopper]

Banshee,

Art for every vehicle even if black and white. 1E Street Samurai Catalog style.

I would changes vehicle stats to BARSASDF model. (Body, Agility, reaction, Strength, Attack, Sleaze, Data Processing, Firewall). Example Strength is analogous to Horsepower. Body is equivalent to Mass. Acceleration is a function of Thrust to Weight ratio. Thus comparison of Body and Strength can give you a realistic acceleration with a higher value of verisimilitude.  A strength 6 body 2 (small drone) would be accelerate quickly 3:1. A strength 10 and body 10 vehicle (SUV) would accelerate gradually 1:1. I have an aerospace engineering degree to back it up.

Also, willing to play test. We are running a weekly Rigger/Matrix game right now. My players are all trained or professional vehicle or drone operators (ie helicopter pilots, EW experts) and would be willing to play test new rules to help smooth out inconsistencies before publishing.

Hit me up. chopperblack1999@gmail.com. A couple aren't agents yet but we can get them to sign the paperwork and NDAs.

vr,
Chopper

[Xenon]

I ran into an interesting discussion just now.... :-)


In SR6 is it intended that the only way to control a vehicle is by commanding the onboard autopilot, manual control and jumped in?

That you can no longer remote control it yourself, using your own skills and attributes.

That all references that talk about "remote control" in the rigger section is actually talking about instructing the onboard autopilot and not you actually using the vehicle yourself remotely.

There are very few examples in this edition, but there is one on p. 201
It talk about a drone that is 'controlled remotely'. Which mean it will roll autosoft + sensor.

In fact, depending on your reading there is nothing in the entire rigging chapter that suggest that there is a 4th control option where you can also actually remote control it yourself without jumping in.


Only reference I still found was under the control device action.


If this is a deliberate change from previous edition then I think it would be good to clarify this (either here directly on the forum or in the upcoming supplement).
If not then I think it would be good to clarify this as well (perhaps by describing the order of override operation, if such still exists).