Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: 忍 on <06-03-16/1925:15>
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I imagine Con to encompass lying to NPCs. I know con is short for confidence, and the term refers to scamming someone. I just wish there were more examples for specializations than Fast Talking and Seduction.
Does anyone have any more to add or perhaps have some perspective as to what all it could include.
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What pops to mind is poker and other games where you can bluff.
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The Long Con: Planned, carefully constructed lies. These are the lies like accidentally meeting the woman manager, spending a long night talking about your burgeoning career as a lawyer and listening to her confide her feelings that she's unappreciated at work, and coyly squeezing a kiss at the end of the night leaving her weak at the knees and waiting by the phone for days. This would apply to any con extended test.
The Limp: In the same way seduction applies to inducing feelings of attraction and lust, this is garnering sympathy. A faked broken leg, holding your dog struck by an exec's car, or tricking that secretary into thinking you are a new hire and if you can't deliver the package in person you'll be fired and your sick mother won't get the care she needs.
Just a couple examples.
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The two listed specializations cover a lot, and the impersonation skill might also be frequently used by a con artist (in SR4, it was a con specializsation rather than a separate skill). Other specializations could possibly be fraud, extortion, and gambling (which would cover cheating and shell games as well as bluffing).
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How do y'all feel about misdirection? Kind of like deflecting a question to change the subject. It could be done by replying with a tangential question or answering with something barely relevant. Well hell, what about straight up lying? EX:
KE: "Why do you have a gun?"
PC: [bold face lie]
Would you as the GM have the player roll con? Would you rather restrict con to actively fooling someone to release valuables such as nuyen or expensive things?
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How do y'all feel about misdirection? Kind of like deflecting a question to change the subject. It could be done by replying with a tangential question or answering with something barely relevant. Well hell, what about straight up lying? EX:
KE: "Why do you have a gun?"
PC: [bold face lie]
Would you as the GM have the player roll con? Would you rather restrict con to actively fooling someone to release valuables such as nuyen or expensive things?
With that example, I would call for a fast talk roll.
Con should be used if the PC has to deal with questions from people he/she wants to lie to.
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Both fast talk abd seduction cover a LOT of ground for the average runner....
Especially when you consider that Con schemes are usually long haul affairs that take days to months to really pull off.... which would almost make them Shadowruns in an of themselves.
But for the 'quick' couple of tests to get past the guard/secratrary? Fast talk and Seduction are the soecialities you are most likely to use...
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I imagine Con to encompass lying to NPCs. I know con is short for confidence, and the term refers to scamming someone. I just wish there were more examples for specializations than Fast Talking and Seduction.
Impersonation used to be a specialization, I think, but now it's its own skill.
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How do y'all feel about misdirection? Kind of like deflecting a question to change the subject. It could be done by replying with a tangential question or answering with something barely relevant. Well hell, what about straight up lying? EX:
KE: "Why do you have a gun?"
PC: [bold face lie]
Would you as the GM have the player roll con? Would you rather restrict con to actively fooling someone to release valuables such as nuyen or expensive things?
It's a con roll, however, the more implausible the lie, the bigger DP penalty...
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Well sure. I'm just inquiring whether con includes all lies and if so to what depth in regards to specializations. The above example was off-the-top and not likely to represent an actual scenario; twas merely rhetorical. I wouldn't have any KE believe PC trying to justify their having a gun because being hunted by a dragon or such (neg DP) :P
Edit: However, if the PC had Con (Sympathy) I would allow the +2 provided they wanted to say that were being chased by an abusive ex-lover.
Do y'all think targeting emotions warrants being a specialization?
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Well sure. I'm just inquiring whether con includes all lies and if so to what depth in regards to specializations. The above example was off-the-top and not likely to represent an actual scenario; twas merely rhetorical. I wouldn't have any KE believe PC trying to justify their having a gun because being hunted by a dragon or such (neg DP) :P
Edit: However, if the PC had Con (Sympathy) I would allow the +2 provided they wanted to say that were being chased by an abusive ex-lover.
Do y'all think targeting emotions warrants being a specialization?
hmmmm....
As a GM, I'd allow it....You still have to figure out how to play off/generate that emotion in the target, and the same trick isn't going to work on all the time so it's not too over balanced.
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Specialization by specific emotion - that's a good idea. Sympathy is good, you could also have greed (a lot of financial scams hinge on this), and hate (things like Humanis demagoguery).
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We use con:seduction for any time you are promising favors in exchange for something.
So we allow con: seduction to be used for non-sexual seduction i.e. power, wealth, privilege, access etc.
Using it effectively depends upon finding the pressure point for the mark but they all are variants of seduction.
So in our game con:greed is already covered by con:seduction.
Con: fast talk covers almost any option where improvisation and short-term goals are the outcome but NOT con attempts that revolve around the exchange of something sought after by the target (that's con:seduction, see above).
hope that helps in your game!
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I'm honestly not sure if this is a reasonable specialization or not -- we struggled to figure out what skill it should be, and settled on con, but others may not agree.
Specialization: the truth.
Sometimes it is hard to convince people of the truth (or what you view as the truth). "We are here to help you.". "Your uncle is a blood mage.". "I really don't know where the black bishop is.". "there was no experimental prototype, the whole lab was empty."
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I would say that's a reasonable specialization. Sometimes it is harder to get someone to believe a hard truth than it is to get them to accept a comforting lie.
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A Con is inherently a lie or untruth.
So Con: Truth would not fly at my table.
IMHO your examples would be better served by leadership.
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Leadership? Interesting! We'd debated etiquette, negotiate, and con, but hadn't thought leadership. Will have to return to this discussion in my game.
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Negotiate implies parties with opposing interests.
Leadership covers a range of things from outright commanding a subordinate, imposing your will on others and IMHO would also cover convincing g someone of the truth of your statements.
You really need all 5 social skills to handle all social situations (con, ettiquette, leadership, intimidation, negotiating)
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How do y'all feel about misdirection? Kind of like deflecting a question to change the subject. It could be done by replying with a tangential question or answering with something barely relevant. Well hell, what about straight up lying? EX:
KE: "Why do you have a gun?"
PC: [bold face lie]
Would you as the GM have the player roll con? Would you rather restrict con to actively fooling someone to release valuables such as nuyen or expensive things?
I believe (and feel free to disagree) but Con is aggressive and Etiquette is defensive. So I would think you would roll your etiquette to explain away why you have the gun. Whereas Con would be used to talk someone into giving you their gun or convincing them that something they might have recently found rightfuly belongs to you.
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ettiquette is the ability to fit into various social situations through body language, situation specific language (think slang and corp-speak etc) and other social cues.
It is essentially a method to convince someone that you are part of their social group.
IT IS NOT anything related to any kind of active (or defensive) con or similar.
It's mostly helpful in helping you understand when to bow to a sarariman, when to growl at a threatening gang member and when to lick boot and in what manner to lick said boot.
etc
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It says it allows you to recover from any failed social roll with etiquette. If that didn't include, explaining why you are carrying a firearm in a public school... what does?
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I can save you from a "social blunder", which is a lot more limited than "any failed social roll" It is a mechanic mainly there to let PCs recover from gaffes that the player made, which the character would be less likely to make. Explaining away things like carrying a gun, or not having an ID badge in a restricted area, fall under con.
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what glyph said.
TL:DR you are failing to understand the difference between "player" and "PC". Etiquette is for saving your hoop when the PLAYER does something that would cause the PC social problems, then the PC gets to roll etiquette to recover.
It is most assuredly NOT a way to recover from all social rolls.
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So... if your character called a NeoNet operative a Dandelion-Eater or a Trog to his face, he can't play it off like a joke with etiquette... unless the player said it as an accident?
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If you decided to directly say that, then I'd think know, you can't laugh it off so easily.
But if the player announced something like "I stride into the restaurant like I own the place, combat boots clacking on the floor, Ares Predator proudly displayed on my hip" the gamemaster might say to use an etiquette roll to realize your faux pas before you fatally insult the local Yakuzza head, where maybe you start off on the wrong foot but manage to smooth it over with good manners.
At least, that is how I read it.
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I dunno, that is pretty much what the Common Sense quality is for. I think our group will continue to use it as the justify/apologize/placate skill and keep using Con for fast-talking, deception and lying. lol
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Ettiquette allows your character to fit into differing social situations and recover from player faux pauxs in the social arena that their character might understand but they do not (see my previous note re: knowing when to bow to a sarariman).
It is not the same as common sense quality which covers both player and character mistakes of all kinds.
Your free to do whatever you like at your table of course.
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Sooo Fast-Talking and Seduction. No mas, gotcha.
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So... if your character called a NeoNet operative a Dandelion-Eater or a Trog to his face, he can't play it off like a joke with etiquette... unless the player said it as an accident?
Other way around.
The skill is not meant to replace role-playing, but it can save you from a social blunder that you (the player) make when your character probably wouldn’t have. When this happens, make an Etiquette Test against a threshold equal to the severity of the blunder (set by the gamemaster using the Success Test Thresholds table, p. 45). A successful test means your character recovers from the misstep.
If you (as a player) do something that is socially "wrong" then the Etiquette skill is there for the GM to say "your character realizes that doing that isn't a good idea in this social setting."
In the example of bringing a gun into a school, it doesn't let you explain away to someone confronting you. Feeding them some line about how you are an undercover cop or other figure that should be allowed to have a gun would be a Con Test. Etiquette would be "oh jeeze, I completely forgot I had that on me, I'm so sorry. I'm just going to run out to my car and put this back in my lockbox, I'll be right back."
I have used Etiquette on several occasions as methods to see if the runners are "fitting in" and only occasionally have to have them make etiquette tests to catch themselves. Another good use of etiquette, would be pro-active on the player's part, things like asking if an action would draw unwanted attention, or using it to know what the protocol is in a given social situation.
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Etiquette is also your default mode for social interactions, you know, when you are not trying to Con, or fast talk someone.... just fitting in, having a drink and shooting the shit...
It's the skill the allows you to go into the rough clubs or the fancy restaurants without making an ass of yourself, or getting shot. And it covers a lot more then just the words that come out of your character's mouth, but also his knowledge of acceptable wear, manners, slang, body language, social customs and norms.
For example a good roll on an Etiquette test for a socialite dinner party would tell you that you need to have a high standard of dress, not to swear like a sailor; and that farting and then sticking your finger in your ass to 'dirty sanchez' the girl next to you is not acceptable.
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Hi,
what about spec Bribe for etiquette, negotiate, and con ?
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what about spec Bribe for etiquette, negotiate, and con ?
To me, Bribe falls pretty squarely into Negotiate as far as a specialty goes. There might be circumstances where Etiquette might tell you that a bribe is appropriate, inappropriate, or possibly even expected. But I wouldn't expect that to be a specialization just to "know when it is ok to bribe someone" so it doesn't really fall into Etiquette.
And Con is about being able to convince people of something, once you pull out the cash that kind of stops. At that point you aren't talking them into something, you're just paying them to do it.
"What? I'm not lying! Mr. Franklin here believes me and he never tells a lie. Here, I'll let you ask him [put's bill in their front pocket]. Now, while you're conferring, I'll just be on my way."
With a bribe, you haven't really convinced them of any sort of truth, you've just paid them to not care anymore. Which at that point is a negotiation over price/willingness to accept your bribe. Hence Negotiation specialty.
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In addition to being the "social stealth" skill, Etiquette is handy for steering the conversation in a desired direction. If the wageslave at the bar is watching the game on the trid but you really need him to talk about his father-in-law, you'd roll Etiquette to make the shift in topic seem natural.
Long cons (or medium-range cons) are a lot of fun, but it can be hard to represent them at the table without chewing up a ton of playing time. If you're in a longer campaign, it's not a problem since you can space it out across sessions, but if I've got a single block of time to work with, I generally represent it through a series of tests. For example, the classic (overly done?) "seduce the secretary" approach is an Extended Etiquette (probably Corp) Test to get to a point where I'll allow the player to roll Con (Seduction). Since runs are often limited by a time frame, the player is incentivized to speed up the Extended Test to get through in as few intervals as possible--possibly adding modifiers by buying her expensive gifts, etc. Whirlwind romances can get expensive.
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an extended etiquette or social test, I never thought about that.
cool idea im going to pinch that one kincaid ;-)