[Csjarrat]

sometimes i really wish this forum had a "like" button!

[celondon]

Here ya go. A guy who can run *really* fast!

== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Unnamed Character
Movement: 18/36
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Human
Composure: 7
Judge Intentions: 5
Lift/Carry: 11 (105 kg/70 kg)
Memory: 8
Nuyen: 250

== Priorities ==
Metatype: D - Human or Elf
Attributes: A - 24 Attributes
Special: E - Mundane
Skills: B - 36 Skills/5 Skill Groups
Resources: C - 140,000¥

== Attributes ==
BOD: 4
AGI: 7 (9)
REA: 4 (5)
STR: 5 (7)
CHA: 2
INT: 3
LOG: 3
WIL: 5
EDG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   0.75
Initiative:                8 + 2d6
Rigger Initiative:         8 + 2d6
Astral Initiative:         
Matrix AR Initiative:      8 + 2d6
Matrix Cold Initiative:    3 + DP + 3d6
Matrix Hot Initiative:     3 + DP + 4d6
Physical Damage Track:     10
Stun Damage Track:         11

== Limits ==
Physical:                  8
Mental:                    5
Social:                    4
   Vashon Island: Synergist Business Line [+1] (Must be visible)
   Vashon Island: Synergist Business Line Longcoat [+1] (Must be visible)
Astral:                    5

== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling            : 0                      Pool: 1
Archery                    : 0                      Pool: 8
Armorer                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Automatics                 : 0                      Pool: 8
Blades                     : 0                      Pool: 8
Clubs                      : 0                      Pool: 8
Computer                   : 1                      Pool: 4
Con                        : 2                      Pool: 4
Cybercombat                : 0                      Pool: 2
Demolitions                : 0                      Pool: 2
Disguise                   : 1                      Pool: 4
Diving                     : 0                      Pool: 3
Escape Artist              : 0                      Pool: 8
Etiquette                  : 2                      Pool: 4
First Aid                  : 2                      Pool: 5
Forgery                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Free-Fall                  : 0                      Pool: 3
Gunnery                    : 0                      Pool: 8
Gymnastics                 : 5                      Pool: 18
Hacking                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Heavy Weapons              : 0                      Pool: 8
Impersonation              : 0                      Pool: 1
Instruction                : 0                      Pool: 1
Intimidation               : 0                      Pool: 1
Leadership                 : 0                      Pool: 1
Longarms                   : 4 [Shotguns]           Pool: 13 (15)
Navigation                 : 0                      Pool: 2
Negotiation                : 2                      Pool: 4
Perception                 : 4                      Pool: 7
Performance                : 0                      Pool: 1
Pilot Ground Craft         : 1                      Pool: 6
Pilot Watercraft           : 0                      Pool: 4
Pistols                    : 4                      Pool: 13
Running                    : 6 [Sprinting]          Pool: 17 (19)
Sneaking                   : 3                      Pool: 12
Survival                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Swimming                   : 5                      Pool: 14
Throwing Weapons           : 2                      Pool: 11
Tracking                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Unarmed Combat             : 6                      Pool: 15

== Knowledge Skills ==

== Qualities ==
Allergy (Uncommon, Mild) (Penicillin)
Code of Honor (Bushido)
Exceptional Attribute (AGI)
Natural Athlete
SINner (National) (UCAS)

== Lifestyles ==
Middle  1 months

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Muscle Replacement Rating 2
Synthacardium Rating 2
Wired Reflexes Rating 1

== Armor ==
Vashon Island: Synergist Business Line9
   +Custom Fit
   +Insulation 1
   +Nonconductivity 4
   +Concealable Holster
Vashon Island: Synergist Business Line Longcoat3
   +Custom Fit (Stack)
   +Thermal Damping 6
   +Holster

== Weapons ==
Ares Predator V
   +Smartgun System, Internal
   Pool: 13   Accuracy: 7   DV: 8P   AP: -1   RC: 3
Franchi SPAS-24
   +Shock Pad
   +Smartgun System, Internal
   Pool: 13 (15)   Accuracy: 6   DV: 12P   AP: -1   RC: 4
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 15   Accuracy: 8   DV: 7S   AP: -   RC: 3

== Commlink ==
Hermes Ikon (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 5, FWL: 5)
   +AR Gloves

== Gear ==
Ammo: Gel Rounds (Shotguns) x100
Ammo: Gel Rounds (Heavy Pistols) x100
Contacts Rating 3
   +Image Link
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 2
Fake License (Pistol License) Rating 4
Fake License (Shotgun License) Rating 4
Fake SIN (Fake Sin 1) Rating 4
Medkit Rating 6
Medkit Supplies x3

== Vehicles ==
Suzuki Mirage (Racing Bike)
   +Sensor Array Rating 2

[adzling]

movement rates for vehicles and people are broken, and it brakes worse as they get faster.

movement for people and vehicles needs an overhaul

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Well, here's the thing regarding Usain Bolt, records, and a gaming system: the upper limit of the gaming system has to be, for all intents and purposes, the actual and absolute physical maximum for the species.  As the researchers have estimated, while Usain Bolt's speed is, well, fast, it isn't the estimated maximum human speed of approximately 40mph - though I'll concede that at the fastest part of the race (right around the 50-60m marks) he might be pushing the limit.  (I dunno, someone get a radar gun on that guy at that point.)

A game system, by its nature, is meant to be a framework within which both the likely and the possible (and sometimes the impossible) can be placed.  From 1968 to the late 1980's, a track time below 9.90 was thought impossible - and even though Ben Johnson cracked that sucker by a full seven-hundredths of a second by using steroids, people started thinking that hey, that could be physically possible.

Instead of using Bolt's achievement as a benchmark of what is possible, look instead at 'how good someone has to be in order to equal him'.  I mean, think about it - a 5 Agility, 5 Strength, plus a 5 Reaction / Intuition combination in order to be guaranteed those two IPs.  Okay, so the Bolt averages 37.61 kph.  From what I figure, Usain ain't a gymnast (others who are going to have high AGI); he is on the other hand likely to have a damn high Reaction.  A Running (Sprint) of 11 (+2)?  Sure.  But in all the shots I've seen of him, I don't think I have ever seen him actually pushing himself to the limit, i.e. spending Edge.  He gets out of the blocks, he punches it for about 70m, and then he frickin' coasts the rest of the way, celebrating the fact that he's in front by 5 or 10m.  I bet if he did push it, he'd shave a good tenth of a second off the record.

Anyhow.  What I mean to say is that what Bolt is is not the limit of what humankind could do, which is what the game system has to account for.  As I said previously - someone who is max human, someone who has gone past max human to 'one in a billion', plus a dedication to sprinting - i.e. he's gone into athletics, and specifically sprinting - is going to break all sorts of records, and should.

Agility 7 + Strength 7 + Running 13 + Sprinting 2 + Reaction 7 + Intuition 7 + ... fine, fine, you convinced me - 6 Edge.

Base movement = 7 * 4 = 28m/turn.
Skill Pool = 22.
Initiative: 14 + 1d6.

Max Initiative: 2 passes.
Average Hits: 7.
Average (no Edge) speed: 28 + 2m/hit/pass = 28 + 28 = 56m/turn: 18.667m/s.  This gets you down to the other side in 5.357 seconds, just under two combat Turns.

Let's Edge those rolls.  The most common one I'm seeing is about 10-12; let's use 11.  Instead of +14m/pass, we're hitting +22m/pass.  Speed goes from 28 + 28 to 28 + 44: 72m/turn, or 24m/s, completing the 100m sprint in 4.167s.  Woo!!

But the best place to spend Edge is not, however, on a skil roll, but on initiative, where you can change from getting an unlikely chance of 18 hits (ha!) or that estimated average of 11 to an almost-guaranteed chance of doubling your initiative passes.  Instead of going from 7 to 11 four times, you go from 7 four times to 7 eight times - to +56, instead of to +44.  And you still have 4 Edge left over to use on four of those rolls.

The real kicker is the result of Edging all of those first four rolls.  Call it the same 11 hits instead of 7 each time.  Instead of adding 22m in the combat turn, you're adding 88 - 116m in three seconds.  You finish the 100m sprint in 2.586 seconds, hitting 139.2 kph - 86.5 mph, or more than twice the speed a human body is estimated to be physically capable of.

Now, seriously?  This is pushing the system to the edge, pun intended - and this entire post is why a) I don't think Bolt is a 7 Agility character, b) I don't think (from observation) he was really, really trying, c) why I don't generally think the character movement rules are broken (vehicular, sure, but not character) and d) why maaaaaybe using Edge can really get the hell out of hand - if, of course, you take it too damn far and try to break the system.  If you try, yeah, sure, it breaks.  But in my book, Bolt ain't a 7 Agility 7 Strength individual able to lift 115 kilos plus another 30-60 on a good roll (as it were).  He holds the world record, sure, but I honestly don't consider him the maximum of which the human form is capable ...

[ZeConster]

Instead of using Bolt's achievement as a benchmark of what is possible, look instead at 'how good someone has to be in order to equal him'.

So like I did 9 months ago? Assuming Strength 4 and a Sprinting specialization, you get this:

Even if we assume Agility 6 and Running 9 (which is very low for a world record holder), he'll get an average of 15 hits over 3 Combat Turns, resulting in 24*3+30 = 102 meters in 9 seconds. And that's on average, not a record.

Even with a Physical Limit of 5 (with Strength 4, that's Body+Reaction <= 7), you'd have a 21.16% chance of 15 total hits on those 3 checks. Heck, even if we stick with 12 sprinting dice (Strength 4, skill 6, specialization) and a Physical Limit of 5, you get a ~14.72% chance of running 100 meters in 9 seconds or less.
Basically, the only way for your idea to work is for no sprinter to ever have had Agility 6 - and even with Agility 5 and 12 sprinting dice (not to mention 5S damage after the third CT and 9S after the fourth), you only need a Physical Limit of 6 to have a ~0.38% chance of 126 or 128 meters in 12 seconds (which puts you below Usain Bolt's current record, although you'll be exhausted afterwards).
That's right: with the current movement rules, you can have an unaugmented human fresh out of chargen, with Agility softcapped, no Aptitude, and no Exceptional Attribute, who'll have a chance of about 1/263 of beating Usain Bolt's record, without using Edge. Give them Strength 5, and that chance goes up to ~1.16%, or about 1/86 - in fact, if you put Body and Reaction at 4 and 5 (or 5 and 4), that fresh-out-of-chargen character has a Physical Limit of 7, which means they'll have a ~0.55% chance of running 100m in under 9 seconds.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

... you know, you're right.  For some dumbass reason I was thinking the target was, like, 7 seconds or something instead of over 9.  Durrr....

Anyhow.  The issue comes, in part, from the fact that it is a gaming system, and thus models the complexities of RL poorly.  I would actually not give any world-record sprinter a 6 Agility, just because of what a 6 Agility really means in gaming terms ... but, like you said, unaugmented starting characters off the blocks can kick his ass.  Again, because of everything Agility covers,

[ZeldaBravo]

Instead of using Bolt's achievement as a benchmark of what is possible, look instead at 'how good someone has to be in order to equal him'.

So like I did 9 months ago? Assuming Strength 4 and a Sprinting specialization, you get this:

Even if we assume Agility 6 and Running 9 (which is very low for a world record holder), he'll get an average of 15 hits over 3 Combat Turns, resulting in 24*3+30 = 102 meters in 9 seconds. And that's on average, not a record.

Even with a Physical Limit of 5 (with Strength 4, that's Body+Reaction <= 7), you'd have a 21.16% chance of 15 total hits on those 3 checks. Heck, even if we stick with 12 sprinting dice (Strength 4, skill 6, specialization) and a Physical Limit of 5, you get a ~14.72% chance of running 100 meters in 9 seconds or less.
Basically, the only way for your idea to work is for no sprinter to ever have had Agility 6 - and even with Agility 5 and 12 sprinting dice (not to mention 5S damage after the third CT and 9S after the fourth), you only need a Physical Limit of 6 to have a ~0.38% chance of 126 or 128 meters in 12 seconds (which puts you below Usain Bolt's current record, although you'll be exhausted afterwards).
That's right: with the current movement rules, you can have an unaugmented human fresh out of chargen, with Agility softcapped, no Aptitude, and no Exceptional Attribute, who'll have a chance of about 1/263 of beating Usain Bolt's record, without using Edge. Give them Strength 5, and that chance goes up to ~1.16%, or about 1/86 - in fact, if you put Body and Reaction at 4 and 5 (or 5 and 4), that fresh-out-of-chargen character has a Physical Limit of 7, which means they'll have a ~0.55% chance of running 100m in under 9 seconds.

Isn't it... reasonable? I bet Usain Bolt can achieve similar results on a regular basis (not the record breaking but not too far), but if you beat him it's a once-in-a-lifetime thing, pretty much what those chances are.

[ZeConster]

Isn't it... reasonable? I bet Usain Bolt can achieve similar results on a regular basis (not the record breaking but not too far), but if you beat him it's a once-in-a-lifetime thing, pretty much what those chances are.

I don't know - is it reasonable that you could make an Agility-5 - so deliberately non-optimal - unaugmented mundane human fresh out of chargen who can potentially run 100 meters in under 9 seconds without using Edge, and that if you gave them Agility 6 and more skill levels, they could even get below 8 seconds? (Agility 6, Strength 5, skill level 9, specialization, physical limit 7: 1.81% of running 114m in 9 seconds, which means 7.90 seconds for 100m.)

[ZeldaBravo]

Remember that agility 5 is a really really fit guy. Agi 6 is the top of what a human can ever achieve statwise. So a very fit guy with high athletics sure should have a slight chance to achieve a world record. It's not like any Olympic contester has 263 attempts to set an official record.  Sure, you can create a character who has dedicated his whole life to sprinting,  but what's wrong with that?

[ZeldaBravo]

Hell, if we consider real life persons as characters then there is nothing special about mr. Bolt at all. He is just an optimised non-augmented mundane human slightly above the character creation.

[ZeConster]

Hell, if we consider real life persons as characters then there is nothing special about mr. Bolt at all. He is just an optimised non-augmented mundane human slightly above the character creation.

No, he isn't. If he were optimized, he'd have Agility 6 and he'd run 100m in less than 9 seconds about 40% of the time, fresh out of chargen. Like I said, movement is only 'reasonable' if you assume we've never had any Agility-6 or Physical-Limit-7 sprinters. I agree with Wyrm that the movement system doesn't have to be reasonable, though, just usable and somewhere in the right ballpark.

[ZeldaBravo]

I may be grabbing at straws right now but consider these things:
1) Usain Bolt may be just on the way to his top score.
2) Olympic records were a bit lower 60 years ago, so they may be a bit higher in 2075+

[ZeConster]

It's possible, although it's also possible to build an unaugmented mundane human that has a chance of better than 1 in 50 of running 2 seconds faster than Usain Bolt (thanks to Indomitable), and that's without Exceptional Attribute or Edge.

[ZeldaBravo]

It's possible, although it's also possible to build an unaugmented mundane human that has a chance of better than 1 in 50 of running 2 seconds faster than Usain Bolt (thanks to Indomitable), and that's without Exceptional Attribute or Edge.

Okay, roll 1d100, try to hit 2 or higher! (or lower, I don't have an ieea how do you count those).
And that's every try. Let's get back on the topic: do high agility characters have a problem?
I say no. An agility 11 character is so far above the human range that... well, he's to regular humans is what regular humans are to snails.
I'm having hard time composing long sentences in English so if there is something unclear or wrong there please do tell.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

The main issue here - honestly - is that we're playing a system.  Systems are, by their very nature, either imperfect or so incredibly complicated you'd practically be better off just going out and live-acting the stuff - or, you know, becoming an adventurer yourself.  The SR5 system says that, like, four different kinds of muscle types, control capabilities, joint flexibility, and all that sort of thing are all wrapped up in one attribute instead of four or six or ten different ones.  Look at all the different types of individuals who benefit from a high Agility; let's take three Olympic ones, two of them similar and one of them different: the Sprinter, the Marathoner, and the Gymnast.

All three of these, as character archetypes, rely on high Agility - either for base running speed or for precision flexibility.  The only difference between them, then, is the specific skills.  All three can benefit from Natural Athlete; this is still going to leave the gymnast (who is going to need an above-average good strength anyhow, because not all those moves rely purely on AGI) with a Running pool of 6 or 7, which means a success or two.  S/he doesn't have the twitch reflexes that react to the starting gun, but a gymnast does have to have quick reaction to adjust for a maneuver's differences on the fly, so I'd say that the expected Initiative is going to be the same.  Does this mean an Olympic gymnast can sprint nearly as fast as an Olympic sprinter?  Of course not - their high Agilities are different kinds of high agilities.

Now, both Runners obviously are going to have high Running skill, right?  Only the specialization is going to be different.  The sprinter is going to have a higher Strength; the Marathoner, a higher Body (in order to resist that build-up of Stun damage, y'know?)  But that'll be a matter of three, maybe five dice on a sprint test.  Is a Marathoner going to sprint like a Sprinter?  Of course not.

The real issue lies in the fact that we can't build a reliable model of 'human' without getting into an obscene complexity of skills, stats, etc.  The real issue - as it were - is that in doing what we're doing right now (which, let's face it, really is 'just be a fraggin' gamer'), we are deliberately pushing the system's edges to its breaking points.  For Extreme Purposes, sure, the system is pretty busted.  But for gaming purposes - in which sure, the combat turn is usually 3 seconds, but it could be 2, or it could be 5 or 10, and which we're playing cool people who can do some pretty rad things, and c'mon, roll with it, dude - since we're wanting to have fun and not get out the tape measure to measure out how far it is from the front door of the gaming store to the entry to the back room, it works, and if we let it work, we can have fun.

Push any gaming system, and it breaks; any gaming system, because it's trying to take complicated-as-hell reality and boil it down to six stat scores, a bunch of skills, and some weapons.  Get granular if you absolutely have to; I'm one who feels that a certain amount of technical detail (being able to create our own guns, vehicles, and spells is very, very high on my personal Shadowrun Must-Have list) is a good thing.  But yeah, even then if you push it too far ... *snap*

Hawatari - the current-day one - without Edge will hit almost 180kph at a dead sprint, sprinting every one of her actions.  She has a Running skill of 3, so if she really wanted to make it worse, yeah, she could.  She's meant to be faster than hell; that's been the idea behind her (fast reaction speed, fast on her feet) since day 1, and this far beyond where she started, yeah, according to the game rules she could do the 100m in under 2s if she wanted.  I doubt that'll ever actually come into play (though, y'know, it might, just for shits and giggles, i.e. fun), but when you get down to it, the idea is that she's faster on her feet than almost anyone she meets, and is supposed to be.  And what she's especially supposed to be - what all this is especially supposed to be - is fun.

So try not to focus too hard on how the system is clearly blatantly broken when, since it's a system, it's always going to be in error in some manner - and that the system's goal is not to perfectly represent reality, but instead to let us have fun.

Well, let us have fun and sword-swinging gymnasts who can do backflips down the track and still beat Bolt by 4.5 seconds ...