[Iron Serpent Prince]

With the release of Kill Code, there are still a bunch of unanswered questions about the Matrix, and the technology that interacts with it.

• What is the SIN that is broadcast?  Is it readable by anyone, or do you need some form of authorization?
     The main question is if Character A is walking down the street, can they Matrix Perception Character B’s comm and know their name?
     Example of use:  A Decker needs to find a certain person.  Through Matrix Search, this Decker figures out the location of this person’s office.  When the Decker heads to that office via the Matrix and notices there are half a dozen comms in there, can this Decker figure out which comm is their target (assuming the SIN has the same name as the target)?
• Can a commcode on a device be changed?
     Based on modern technology, the answer would be “maybe.”  On the one hand, if it acts only like a phone number, then yes it would be possible – if a little clunky – to change the commcode.  On the other hand, if it acts like an IMEI or ESN number, then emphatically “no,” you can’t change it.
     Reason for interest:  A Decker trips an alarm, either from OS accumulation, or failing a Sleaze action, or succeeding in an Attack action, and the responder uses a Matrix Perception to grab the commcode of the Decker.  This Decker is now easily identified / tracked if the commcode can’t be changed, as it counts as something known about the Icon to use in future Matrix Perception checks.
     Ideally, said Decker would just change Decks / Commcodes to not worry about having to Run Silent everywhere in order to prevent leading their victims straight to them and the rest of their team.  Given the price of Decks, they can’t just be burned.
• Does the recipient of an alarm have any clue what set it off?
     What I mean is, if a Decker succeeds on an Attack roll, is the Owner of the target told “Breach Detected?”  Then if the Decker fails a Sleaze roll, is the Owner told “Intrusion Attempt Prevented?”  I imagine the OS accumulation would be pretty clear for a Host’s security.
     Reason for interest:  Should a Decker fail a Sleaze roll (example their opening Hack on the Fly for a MARK roll) the Owner at the moment has about a 50% chance of succeeding on a Matrix Perception - ‘Personas that I / this system have a MARK on’ to spot the Decker who failed the attempt.  If the alarm clarifies the reason for the alarm, that shoots up to 100%  (And the Owner could use a second hit on the Matrix Perception roll to grab the commcode, like above.)
• How does Matrix Perception work for someone in AR?
     What I mean is, when in AR, a Decker could be in Seattle while their Persona is in DeeCee.  When this Decker uses Matrix Perception which location is he viewing?  Is it DeeCee only?  Can he choose to Perceive Seattle?  Can he choose to do both?
     If the Decker can choose to Perceive more than just DeeCee, can a Decker in VR use the same choice if they choose?
     To answer anyone who might ask, it would be a way to keep an eye on their meatspace bodies.  If you have a limited number of comms, say, in your bodies vicinity when you slide into VR, and that number jumps by four, say, you can be sure you have a some sort of team at your meat body.
• Why, in a technical explanation, a device can’t be both Master and Slave in a PAN?
     Given all the reasons even running a PAN is a Bad Idea™ now, why are devices limited in the scope they can play?
• Is the Ownership Information readable “from the outside?”
     Can a hacker gain access to who owns a device?
• Does Ownership actually place MARKs on a Device?  There are several places that compare ownership as being like having 4 MARKs.  But no place that actually states that ownership is four MARKs.
• Can a commlink/deck store more than one SIN at a time?  Obviously, even if the device could broadcast more than one it would be a really silly thing to do.
• Can you transfer (cyber) Programs form one Deck to another?  What if they have the same Owner?  I know there was a ruling somewhere, if memory serves by Aaron, that a Decker can't copy programs (because they can't defeat the copy protection of all things), but what about transferring?

My main issue is still with the details of exactly how "the Matrix overlays the physical world."

This, along with other sections, heavily implies that AR iconography literally overlays the physical world, with personas and device icons - and AROs placed on those icons - all moving around in virtual space in tandem with the devices they're connected to (and thus the people / things which are carrying them).

• Matrix Teamwork: Does it work, and if yes, how? I´ve seen the Technomancer-only(!) Qualitiy "Teamplayer", but that doesn´t explain what you can and cannot do without it
• Refereing to the original post: Am I able to run my Persona on another "Persona-readied" device that is not  in my immediate vicinity? F.i., can I keep a kind of Backup Deck in my appartment while going out, and when someone triggers an alarm, I can log in with my persona on that Deck to have an immediate, "lokalized" viewpoint on what is going there? If not, what prevents me from doint so? Is there a max. range to keep between me (i.e. my interface controls, be they AR Gloves, DNI or VR) and the device I run my persona from?
• Regarding Masters and Slaves: Is there an official Action (or set of Actions) to form or reconfigure a PAN? How long does it take to establish a Master-Slave-relationship, who needs to give their OK, who needs Marks on whom?
• Regarding Send Message Action: The description states that you may need a Mark (probably on the target of the message, not on the sender?  ), but not when. I think it´s needed to start a livefeed, am i right? 

But now that I further think about it, There is a HUGE issue with this that surely demands a Errata or Clarification:

Core Rules, P. 268: "There are also wide area networks, or WANs, with multiple devices slaved to a host. This is the world of  that special kind of rigger, the security spider. They slave(!) their RCC to the building’s host and connect to the entire  security system, including all of its slaved drones."

That would be a problem now, because RCCs need to be Masters to share Autosofts with their slaved Drones. Does this mean that Spiders don´t use shared Autosofts and have individual Autosofts running on their drones instead? Or can the slaved RCC still share Autosofts inside the Host´s WAN (would make more sense IMO)? Can the security rigger even control his/her persona on the slaved RCC?

Also, is the RCC in this case visible outside the Host?

[HP15BS]

My main issue is still with the details of exactly how "the Matrix overlays the physical world."

the people walking down the street are occasionally highlighted by glowing auras--nice blue ones representing your friends, glaring red ones telling you that someone you know and should be avoiding is coming close...
- Core 221

This, along with other sections, heavily implies that AR iconography literally overlays the physical world, with personas and device icons - and AROs placed on those icons - all moving around in virtual space in tandem with the devices they're connected to (and thus the people / things which are carrying them).

Yet, there are vastly differing views. I'd say this is definitely a foundational enough concept to warrant official clarification.

[Finstersang]

Ah I´ve been waiting for this kind of thread to pop up 

First, I think I can kind of answer 2 of these.

4)  How does Matrix Perception work for someone in AR?
   What I mean is, when in AR, a Decker could be in Seattle while their Persona is in DeeCee.  When this Decker uses Matrix Perception which location is he viewing?  Is it DeeCee only?  Can he choose to Perceive Seattle?  Can he choose to do both?
   If the Decker can choose to Perceive more than just DeeCee, can a Decker in VR use the same choice if they choose?
   To answer anyone who might ask, it would be a way to keep an eye on their meatspace bodies.  If you have a limited number of comms, say, in your bodies vicinity when you slide into VR, and that number jumps by four, say, you can be sure you have a some sort of team at your meat body.

That´s still confusing for many players: Your Persona is neither in Seattle nor in Deecee, it´s in the Matrix. And that means, it´s either inside a Host or out on the Grid (it doesn´t matter which grid, except for the data throttling on the public grid. Think of it as your internet provider). This determines what you can immediately spot inside the Matrix. In a Host, you see it´s inhabitants (if not running silently). Out on the grid, you see the things around in a 100 Meter radius around your position, meaning the position of the device your are running persona is running on. For everything else, you need to perform a Matrix Perception Test. When the fluff texts talks about how you "travel" through the Matrix, that´s mostly a visual Metaphor. You can´t really reposition yourself in the Matrix, at least not in relation to the physical world. You can reposition yourself by repositioning the Device your persona runs on or by loading you persona on another device.
This, however, begs a new question (see #2 below).
[/quote]

5)  Why, in a technical explanation, a device can’t be both Master and Slave in a PAN?
   Given all the reasons even running a PAN is a Bad Idea™ now, why are devices limited in the scope they can play?

Well that´s because... that´s how the Matrix works. Masters and Slaves are just figments of the the Matrix Protocolls, so from a technical standpoint, there are no "chains" of Masters-Slave-Relationships because the Matrix protocols don´t support it. From a gaming perspective, it´s mostly to prevent abuse.

The question is: Why are so many people here so eager to have chains of Masters and Slaves?  My suspicion: The Names are kinda misleading. It´s less like "Master and Slave" and more like "Protector and Protege". In the Matrix, you don´t have to be the "Master" to control "Slaves". Control is regulated by ownership and Marks. A Master-Slave-Relationship (in other words: a PAN or WAN) only grants additional protection to the slaves, at the cost of making the master more vulnerable. So ironically, it is actually the "Master" that is getting the whip here  Now, I don´t know if you share this misconception, that´s just a guess. If you don´t, please tell me why you think that Slaves should be able to be Masters as well (or why there should be an explanation on why they can´t)   

So, that´s my shot at 2 (well, 1 and a half) of these. For the rest, I´m not sure if theres a RAW answer. AFAIK, these are still up to diskussion. Plus, a bunch of unanswered questions to add from me:

• Matrix Teamwork: Does it work, and if yes, how? I´ve seen the Technomancer-only(!) Qualitiy "Teamplayer", but that doesn´t explain what you can and cannot do without it
• Refereing to the original post: Am I able to run my Persona on another "Persona-readied" device that is not  in my immediate vicinity? F.i., can I keep a kind of Backup Deck in my appartment while going out, and when someone triggers an alarm, I can log in with my persona on that Deck to have an immediate, "lokalized" viewpoint on what is going there? If not, what prevents me from doint so? Is there a max. range to keep between me (i.e. my interface controls, be they AR Gloves, DNI or VR) and the device I run my persona from?
• Regarding Masters and Slaves: Is there an official Action (or set of Actions) to form or reconfigure a PAN? How long does it take to establish a Master-Slave-relationship, who needs to give their OK, who needs Marks on whom?
• Regarding Send Message Action: The description states that you may need a Mark (probably on the target of the message, not on the sender?  ), but not when. I think it´s needed to startg a livefeed, am i right? 

That´s it for now. I´m sure there are other questions, so fire at will       

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Out on the grid, you see the things around in a 100 Meter radius around your position, meaning the position of the device your are running persona is running on.

Do you have any reference for this?  I know I've looked and not found any.  I can personally see an argument either way, as in 100m radius from your Persona, and 100m radius from your device.
In this case, do you automatically spot any Icon within 100m radius of your device that is in the vicinity of the Seattle grid?
Or Icons within 100m radius of your Persona on the DeeCee grid?

The question is: Why are so many people here so eager to have chains of Masters and Slaves?

I won't speak for the others, but I imagine it has to do with the fact that you can do that now.

Right now your Router (I am assuming you have one) can have hundreds of devices "slaved" to it providing the same benefits as a Master in Shadowrun.
Even if it was only, eight say, you could hook up another router as one of those eight and get eight more (for 15 total.)
In fact, that is what Steve Gibson's Three (dumb) Router (YouTube Video) approach is for IoT security.  (Text version)

And before anyone says "but those are dedicated devices," your PC can do the same thing with the right know how.  Granted, *nix machines are much easier to do it with...  But Windows machines can do it too - although it might require third party software.

From a gaming perspective, I don't want (as a Decker) to have to cover 5+ pieces of gear per teammate just to cover basic operations.
Now, every character doesn't need 5+ devices.  Some need more, others need less.  I just estimate 5 per.  And that limits team size to four, at most.

• Image Link Device (Cybereyes, Googles, Glasses, Contacts, etc.)
• Sound Link Device (Ear buds, Cyberears, etc.)
• Voice Device (Subdermal Mic, Microtransceiver, etc.)
• Response Interface Gear*, helmet
• Response Interface Gear*, armor
• Maybe a weapon

*RIG, the poor man's PI-Tac.

One of the first rules of combat is "don't allow your comms to be compromised."  If one of your team's comms gets hacked, the rest of the gear being protected hardly matters at that point.

On top of that, right now the Drone Rigger is stuck having to protect two devices all by her/his lonesome.  The RCC - as a Master, it can't be slaved to a PAN.  And the commlink s/he forms her Persona on - because a Persona'd device can't be part of a PAN.

It would make so much more sense, technologically, practically, and just plain common-sense-y, to permit each member to control her/his own PAN, and link Masters to the Matrix Overwatch characters Master.

Was that enough?  Or should I go on? 

[HP15BS]

On top of that, right now the Drone Rigger is stuck having to protect two devices all by her/his lonesome.  The RCC - as a Master, it can't be slaved to a PAN.  And the commlink s/he forms her Persona on - because a Persona'd device can't be part of a PAN.

I think you've mixed up Persona'd device with a TM's Living Persona.
Comms and Decks are absolutely assumed to simultaneously serve as the host to your persona, and as the master of your PAN. (And I'm pretty sure the same goes for RCCs, but I'm not gonna go searching to verify right now.)

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Comms and Decks are absolutely assumed to simultaneously serve as the host to your persona, and as the master of your PAN. (And I'm pretty sure the same goes for RCCs, but I'm not gonna go searching to verify right now.)

If you got something to back that up, I'd love to see it.

To be honest, this is another Stupendously Silly™ ruling based on community consensus arguing over RAW, not based on anything resembling the author's RAI.

Because of that, I didn't focus on it enough to argue the point for, but I do know it revolved around this passage in Core:

When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the Matrix until the persona jacks out.

I know, I know.  "That refers to the Icon only."  I also know that got shot / shouted down for some reason.

I also know that Data Trails and Kill Code have not published anything that supports or disproves the idea.  I was specifically looking.

So do post what you have, please.  When you have the time, of course.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

I have a nagging feeling I missed a few.  My list should be longer than this.  I guess I'll have to add to this thread as I remember them.

I remembered one:

• Does Ownership actually place MARKs on a Device?  There are several places that compare ownership as being like having 4 MARKs.  But no place that actually states that ownership is four MARKs.

[HP15BS]

I don't think it's explicitly stated, but it shouldn't need to be. Every core section on comms, PANs, etc I've looked at reads like doing both simultaneously is an underlying assumption.

If you ask me, to say otherwise is to focus only on one tiny (probably poorly edited) line to the exclusion of virtually everything else around it.

- And don't you have to use your persona to perform matrix actions?
There's gotta be examples in the books where riggers use their RCCs to coordinate drones while also using them for a matrix action or two. Or of someone actively using their deck as a persona while simultaneously protecting other devices.

Idk, maybe I just had a self-perpetuating misreading, but that doesn't seem likely. If you consider the implications of what you're proposing, that would mean you can only have a PAN when you're not actively using your comm as your persona. But everyone is always using their persona. And everyone always has a PAN, because, like the book says, there'd be a crap-ton of extra icons everywhere if they didn't. I don't recall any fluff about people carrying, or even having, multiple comms at once.

So the preponderance of the evidence makes it pretty clear to me that comms, decks, and rccs can all do both simultaneously.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

So the preponderance of the evidence makes it pretty clear to me that comms, decks, and rccs can all do both simultaneously.

Unfortunately, no.  I found a reference to it, but haven't found the true source yet.

This post.

I think I can give some answers.  Aaron stated somewhere, possibly the FAQ thread, that a 'deck is no longer a device when it is in use--  It's a persona.

I do know this Aaron mentioned has some authority weight, I can't say what exactly.

Since the comm / deck / whatever is no longer a device, it can not be part of a PAN.

[HP15BS]

In that post you linked to, they actually say that a persona can't be a slave, but can be a master.

Again, look at the full preponderance of evidence here. Even if you don't recognize any underlying assumption in the various relevant sections that these devices are performing both functions simultaneously, there's still all those story-like examples throughout the books.

Like this one on 271 of Core:

Spike... uses his Hack on the Fly action to try to slap a mark on the Rotodrone. Spike would normally roll Hacking + Logic [Sleaze] v. Intuition + Firewall, but the rotodrone is slaved to Driver’s RCC and can therefore use the RCC’s Firewall instead....
... makes another Hack on the Fly action (Hacking + Logic [Sleaze] v. Intuition + Firewall) against the rotodrone and scores 2 net hits. He now has 2 marks on Driver’s persona.

I'm sure this is just one example of many where a device is shown to serve as both a persona and a master simultaneously.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

In that post you linked to, they actually say that a persona can't be a slave, but can be a master.

Yes they did, five years ago.  And there was a reason I didn't quote it.

Because even if that is right, Kill Code came along and...  Well...  Killed it.

PANs consist of only devices, whether slave or master, and no device can be both slave and master.

So, until there is the Errata customers have been waiting for for three to four years - and it corrects this - Personas can't be a part of a PAN.  Master, Slave, whatever.

[HP15BS]

Because even if that is right, Kill Code came along and...  Well...  Killed it.

PANs consist of only devices, whether slave or master, and no device can be both slave and master.

So, until there is the Errata customers have been waiting for for three to four years - and it corrects this - Personas can't be a part of a PAN.  Master, Slave, whatever.

That... doesn't actually say a persona can't be part of a PAN lol.

What does a PAN consist of?  Devices.
What creates a persona?        A device.
What creates a PAN?             Only devices that can create a persona.
. . . .

-  And again, I'd like to return your attention to the RAW examples of devices performing both functions simultaneously.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

And I'd love for you to be correct.

I take a rather Linux view to the Matrix.  In Linux "everything is a file."  I feel in the Matrix "everything is an Icon."  And by extension that means Personas aren't unique items, for lack of a better word.  I'd like Personas to be considered devices.

Until we get some clarification, we have Aaron declaring a Persona isn't a device any more.
And Kill Code making it clear that PANs are only devices.

For the record, Aaron also made the ruling that Noise only stops Wireless Bonuses, and does not prevent the device from interacting with the Matrix.  This ruling has made Jammers not function as the were written too.

So, I am all for the next Errata coming out with a declaration of something like "this is the official Errata.  If an interpretation or ruling isn't in here, it isn't official."  Just start over and work with consistency from here on out.

I'm pretty sure that won't happen, so instead we have to wait for Catalyst to get off their thumbs and pay the Errata team to make it worth their while to either push through the backlog of material, or skip ahead to Kill Code and fix that section on PANs.

[HP15BS]

Actually, I just googled       "aaron" PAN persona site:https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com,    limiting for everything before the date firebug referenced that statement, and turned up bupkis. Only 3 hits, none of which were it.
So either Aaron deleted it, or it actually never even existed.

Was that the main basis for your position, or was it the bit about iconography?

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Was that the main basis for your position, or was it the bit about iconography?

To repeat myself:

To be honest, this is another Stupendously Silly™ ruling based on community consensus arguing over RAW, not based on anything resembling the author's RAI.

So either Aaron deleted it, or it actually never even existed.

If you want to accuse Firebug of being a Lyin' S.O.B., then you do you.    I'm going to take it to mean that when the forum software was switched over about a year ago the FAQ thread didn't make the transition.  If you want to believe it was intentional, go ahead.  I'm not making that assumption.