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6WE Strength useless for melee users?

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GuardDuty

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« Reply #150 on: <09-20-19/1316:49> »
Quote
OMG I just realised.

Speaking of the idea that 6e is good because it powers up iconic weapons like katanas to the point where they are useful for some characters who previously couldn't benefit from them... Hand razors only do 2P. They make no sense for almost anyone. A character with Str 3 and Bone Lacing 1 does more damage by punching. You can't get much more iconic than Molly Millions, the O.G. razorgirl. But she doesn't reasonably exist in Shadowrun 6e.

Not a very good example.  Hand razors have never been good, and have typically been outshined by both hand blades and spurs, with a similar essence cost and for hardly any more nuyen.

penllawen

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« Reply #151 on: <09-20-19/1318:13> »
Current Unarmed Attack Rating tops out at 27 (with bone augments working as RAW, but this only goes down to 24 if you take the proposed action of taking bone augments out of the math).  Two of the three sample Dracoforms have Defenses listed of 26 and 24.  So top level Unarmed Attack Rating could punch a dragon and not give them Edge.
Huh, on that note, a barehanded strength 2 wageslave thumping a dragon on the snoot only grants it 1 Edge. The exact same Edge outcome as a Strength 13 / Agility 10 troll going H.A.M. on it with a two-handed sledgehammer. That feels weird, too.

penllawen

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« Reply #152 on: <09-20-19/1322:29> »

Not a very good example.  Hand razors have never been good, and have typically been outshined by both hand blades and spurs, with a similar essence cost and for hardly any more nuyen.
I wasn't the one who kept playing the "but static damage codes are good because katanas are so iconic" counter-argument; and you definitely don't get more iconic than hand razors in my opinion. Molly Millions! Come on!

But spurs are the same though, just 1 point higher (DV 3P.) You get the better damage from unarmed at Str 5 with tier 1 bone lacing, or at Str 3 with tier 3 bone lacing. So that's another iconic weapon confined to the dustbin of mechanical near-irrelevance.

adzling

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« Reply #153 on: <09-20-19/1346:34> »
is this thread an attempt to prove that 6e's melee damage is borked?

If so congratulations, mission accomplished!

darthor45

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« Reply #154 on: <09-20-19/1805:12> »
is this thread an attempt to prove that 6e's melee damage is borked?

If so congratulations, mission accomplished!

Well, that's not the attitude I was approaching the conversation with, but you're welcome to your own opinions.

Serin_Marst

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« Reply #155 on: <09-20-19/2002:18> »
Looking at that maximum unarmed AR, I wonder if maybe we're approching this from the wrong angle.

Fix unarmed at 2S (maybe bump it to 3S with S 7+ like the hardening limb mod).  Then tweak the AR of melee weapons so that their AR replaces one of the attributes in the unarmed AR equasion.  if 2 is considered average this edition, reduce listed AR by 2 then AR + R for quick weapons and AR + S for heavy weapons, leave monofilament and shock weapons as is.

If you go back to 1e-3e this mirrors the interaction of S and armor in the FASA editions, like ranged AR does with DR.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #156 on: <09-21-19/0750:55> »
The bone augmentations enhance the problem, but they are not the culprit. It makes sense that you deal more damage with bone lacing than without, and it´s at least not totally unbelievable if that´s sometimes enough to make some smaller melee weapons obsolete.

The core problem is that unarmed scales with Strength twofold (Base Damage and Attack rating) while Melee weapons don´t scale at all. It´s a terrible choice that should note have made it in the finished (hard to call it that...) published rulebook.

As they have always just been glorified brass knucks that’s the damage they should be doing. Back to 2e they have been doing sword
Level damage and that never made sense. And devalued many other attack ware like spurs or razors.

But it’s just part of the problem and makes it more apparent earlier. Though if a street sam using a katana is a iconic image you want it is pretty necessary to change. I don’t think street sams will ever switch to a katana due to short range. They’d just shoot at point blank again. Potentially giving your opponent edge is a small penalty. Using a major to switch weapons is a bigger penalty.

Hephaestus

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« Reply #157 on: <09-21-19/0842:17> »
As they have always just been glorified brass knucks that’s the damage they should be doing. Back to 2e they have been doing sword
Level damage and that never made sense. And devalued many other attack ware like spurs or razors.

I never really understood why having a harder material grafted to your bones did more damage. I can see changing your damage code from S to P (and maybe a flat +1 STR), but no matter what material you are punching/kicking with you're still swinging with your normal body. If you wanted more damage, take STR 'wares.

steelybran

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« Reply #158 on: <09-21-19/0846:50> »
As they have always just been glorified brass knucks that’s the damage they should be doing. Back to 2e they have been doing sword
Level damage and that never made sense. And devalued many other attack ware like spurs or razors.

I never really understood why having a harder material grafted to your bones did more damage. I can see changing your damage code from S to P (and maybe a flat +1 STR), but no matter what material you are punching/kicking with you're still swinging with your normal body. If you wanted more damage, take STR 'wares.

Mass, actually.  The more your arm weighs, the more energy in the blow.  Force is equal to Mass * Acceleration.  The heaviness of the arm, in this case, is 1/2 the formula of how hard you hit something.

Hephaestus

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« Reply #159 on: <09-21-19/0907:24> »
As they have always just been glorified brass knucks that’s the damage they should be doing. Back to 2e they have been doing sword
Level damage and that never made sense. And devalued many other attack ware like spurs or razors.

I never really understood why having a harder material grafted to your bones did more damage. I can see changing your damage code from S to P (and maybe a flat +1 STR), but no matter what material you are punching/kicking with you're still swinging with your normal body. If you wanted more damage, take STR 'wares.

Mass, actually.  The more your arm weighs, the more energy in the blow.  Force is equal to Mass * Acceleration.  The heaviness of the arm, in this case, is 1/2 the formula of how hard you hit something.

Since they are only replacing a portion of the bone with plastic/metal (say ~50%), I don't think you would be adding nearly enough mass to account for such a drastic change in damage. I mean, most industrial polymers are as dense or less dense than bone, so no additional mas per volume. And since Ti is only about 2.4x more dense than bone (4500 kg/m3 vs 1900 kg/m3) you would only be adding a kg or so to the mass of the arm of an average human. That is why I said maybe the +1 STR, but not a ramping damage code.

EDIT: And also, having more mass doesn't mean your muscles have been augmented to be able to swing that mass with the same effectiveness as with your normal bones, so slightly less acceleration.
« Last Edit: <09-21-19/0920:48> by Hephaestus »

Xenon

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« Reply #160 on: <09-21-19/0933:49> »
Personally I think that bone lacing and dermal deposits should simply switch the damage code from S to P, without actually adding any extra damage value to the attack...

Assault rifles will probably still remain the perfect all-round weapon if you want something that is highly efficient in both indoor and outdoor battle. In this edition assault rifles can even be used at 1500+ ranges (which is a bit crazy to be honest).

Sniper rifles are kinda niche but they seem to be highly efficient (even more so than assault rifles) once you start talking about ranges beyond 500 meters (and even more so beyond 1500 meter ranges)

I don't think anyone will spend the action economy to actually switch weapon in ongoing combat (unless you get to trigger some sort of quick draw alternative or your weapon cannot be used at all for this range), but if you enter a CQC area (indoor apartment for example) it seem to make sense to switch to a Katana rather than going in with an Assault Rifle or a Sniper Rifle (if you have the skills to use it).

In many situations I also think we will see people using a pistol or a SMG (or two) as their go-to all-round weapon - rather than an Assault Rifle (as in this edition pistols and SMGs seem to be highly useful up to 250 meters, which is a bit crazy to be honest). And I also think we will see street samurai characters with the ambidextrous quality; wielding a SMG (for wide burst anticipation) in one hand and a katana (for intercept or, more commonly, block into wrest) in the other.

We will probably also see some niche Troll-builds that will prioritize strength in order to use unarmed combat (close combat) and bow (athletics) rather than pistols/SMGs/Assault Rifles (firearms).
« Last Edit: <09-21-19/0947:10> by Xenon »

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #161 on: <09-21-19/1010:31> »
I never really understood why having a harder material grafted to your bones did more damage.

I always took it as primarily psychological, mostly.

When you know your hand won't break when punching through a concrete wall, you tend to not instinctively hold back when pummeling a street ganger.

Hephaestus

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« Reply #162 on: <09-21-19/1047:05> »
Personally I think that bone lacing and dermal deposits should simply switch the damage code from S to P, without actually adding any extra damage value to the attack...

Assault rifles will probably still remain the perfect all-round weapon if you want something that is highly efficient in both indoor and outdoor battle. In this edition assault rifles can even be used at 1500+ ranges (which is a bit crazy to be honest).

Sniper rifles are kinda niche but they seem to be highly efficient (even more so than assault rifles) once you start talking about ranges beyond 500 meters (and even more so beyond 1500 meter ranges)

I don't think anyone will spend the action economy to actually switch weapon in ongoing combat (unless you get to trigger some sort of quick draw alternative or your weapon cannot be used at all for this range), but if you enter a CQC area (indoor apartment for example) it seem to make sense to switch to a Katana rather than going in with an Assault Rifle or a Sniper Rifle (if you have the skills to use it).

In many situations I also think we will see people using a pistol or a SMG (or two) as their go-to all-round weapon - rather than an Assault Rifle (as in this edition pistols and SMGs seem to be highly useful up to 250 meters, which is a bit crazy to be honest). And I also think we will see street samurai characters with the ambidextrous quality; wielding a SMG (for wide burst anticipation) in one hand and a katana (for intercept or, more commonly, block into wrest) in the other.

We will probably also see some niche Troll-builds that will prioritize strength in order to use unarmed combat (close combat) and bow (athletics) rather than pistols/SMGs/Assault Rifles (firearms).

I agree on all points.

Most urban/indoor operations aren't going beyond 50m or so, let a lone 250m, so things like heavy pistols and SMGs have more value as standard kit (the Praetor is my go-to in 6th). Having bone lacing (even without the STR buff) in those situations give you options when someone gets up close, so you could try to shoot at reduced AR or just punch/kick them for reduced damage.

I always took it as primarily psychological, mostly.

When you know your hand won't break when punching through a concrete wall, you tend to not instinctively hold back when pummeling a street ganger.

That could be true, so long as you don't mind leaving your skin on the wall.

GuardDuty

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« Reply #163 on: <09-21-19/1055:55> »


As they have always just been glorified brass knucks that’s the damage they should be doing. Back to 2e they have been doing sword
Level damage and that never made sense. And devalued many other attack ware like spurs or razors.

Actually, in 3E they went from (Str+2)M to (Str+4)M Stun in the CRB, but if you chose to do physical damage the power of the attack was halved.  Kinda sounds like bringing that part back would bring it more in line with other damage values in SR6.

On edit: Shadowtech (looks like 1E) also has them listed as doing half Power when they're used for physical damage.
« Last Edit: <09-21-19/1101:23> by GuardDuty »

penllawen

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« Reply #164 on: <09-21-19/1118:19> »
Most urban/indoor operations aren't going beyond 50m or so, let a lone 250m, so things like heavy pistols and SMGs have more value as standard kit (the Praetor is my go-to in 6th). Having bone lacing (even without the STR buff) in those situations give you options when someone gets up close, so you could try to shoot at reduced AR or just punch/kick them for reduced damage.
Same feelings. When I first saw the definitions of the ranges for the table, I was quite surprised. They seem unrealistic for many of the weapons, and also seem very concerned with a lot of long ranges that never get used at my table. Almost all our stuff happens at a range of no more than tens of metres. Other than that they seem fine, mechanically; they’re just... very leggy.