Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Longshot23 on <03-23-19/0016:35>

Title: HMHVV question
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-23-19/0016:35>
Just an idle wondering: is there any suggestion that HMHVV might have been created at some point?

Also, can it exist outside a biological form?
Title: Re: HMHVV question
Post by: Reaver on <03-23-19/0045:57>
Trying to remember which books has the most written on HMHVV, I know its been talked about in at least a half dozen books over the years.... And if memory serves, I think it was Critas who was the freelancer working on the "infected" and MHMVV... (Or was it CrimsonDude?)

Running off memory here but:

We know that it has a "magical" component to its RNA structure, hence why it wasn't around before the awakening. (although some infected claim to have been made/awake/active during the down cycle).

Thanks to Tech and magic not working very well together, despite every attempt to get them to, I think it would be unlikely that it could have been engineered - if that is what you mean. (Especially given how quickly after the awakening HMHVV appeared on the scene).
I mean, they haven't even identified the "magic" gene (the gene that separates Mundanes from Awakened) yet, let alone replicated it, so some how engineering an awakened virus with the tech of the 2030s seems unlikely (Heck, Cyber limbs were barely a decade old!)

What do yo mean by outside of a biological form? Like on a countertop? Or in a solution of saline? It doesn't say. All it says is that it highly infectious, and requires blood contact...

Dark Terrors page 140+ has some info on HMHVV... but there are other sources as well. 
Title: Re: HMHVV question
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-23-19/0406:28>
I mean engineered, yeah - but going WAY back to Fourth World, or even before - like an alchemical experiment or process (closest analogy I can think of) going very very wrong, and HMHVV being in the open ever since. You'd need something like an 'arcano-virologist' to even begin to break it down, and such animals are probably very thin on the ground.

By outside a biological form, I mean have there ever been pools or clouds or some such conglomeration of HMHVV just waiting to Infect some poor schlub (Patient Zero), and away we go . . .
Title: Re: HMHVV question
Post by: Reaver on <03-23-19/0523:38>
I know next to nothing about the Earthdawn HMHVV (or whatever its called in ED). It wasn't a product I followed... And i am uncertain how much of ED is in actual SR canon. (There are some direct links, but after a company split, a division of assets, and a gaggle of lawyers, it's hard to know for sure..)

By outside a biological form, I mean have there ever been pools or clouds or some such conglomeration of HMHVV just waiting to Infect some poor schlub (Patient Zero), and away we go . . .

To the best of my knowledge, there was no "Patient Zero" ever found, and I believe their was a massive effort to find one too... (like I said, HMHVV has been written about a lot and info is found in a lot of different books, so i might have missed it).

Which leads to the question of "how"... which I just can't remember the answer to.. I can remember that the first 2 scientists worked on it for years, both died of infection from HMHVV (or complications of inflection, like lead poisoning) but they never found the original source. Again, the magical nature of the virus may make that very hard to determine. This could have been a case of a population carrying the magical virus dormant in their DNA until the Mana Spike.. and suddenly you had a population infected and not a single Patient Zero... (?)

Is is possible there is a magical HMHVV puddle out there that started the whole thing off?  Maybe?
IF you need a "puddle" as plot device, well nothing says you'd be wrong :P
Title: Re: HMHVV question
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-24-19/0039:15>
Sorry, I didn't mean Patient Zero in the modern era (Sixth World) - it's not a term that translates well to pre-modern times. I meant in whatever the original event was.

That said, I know there are written differences in SR Infected and their ED equivalents - it's possible that HMHVV is a term for 'it's something we don't understand, so we're just going to label it and pretend'
Title: Re: HMHVV question
Post by: Reaver on <03-24-19/0153:31>
Yea, this is where things go wonky real fast... Unless you have the original, Earthdawn 1st edition books from 1993, it going to be VERY hard to link the two.

This is because of the intellectual properties are now owned by 2 different publishers, and there would be legal restrictions on just what terms the two systems could/can/will use for what could be the very same thing. (ain't Law great? :P) (for example, HMHVV may be a Topps only term, thus forcing ED to use something else... like "Vamp's Disease") 

And, as I said before, I don't know much from the ED side of things, let alone what is canon, or what is considered "shared property" between the two (if any).
Title: Re: HMHVV question
Post by: DeathStrobe on <03-24-19/0259:19>
There are no infected in Earthdawn.

Also, the writer that specializes in the infected is Patrick Goodman.

My personal fan theory is that HMHVV is an attempt to protect against the Horrors gone horribly wrong. But there is literally no evidence of this because, like I said, there are no infected in Earthdawn. Earthdawn also takes place post the Scourge as magic is waning. However, we only see a very small part of the world in Earthdawn. So who knows what's going on in the other parts of Earth, which is where infected might have come from.
Title: Re: HMHVV question
Post by: Reaver on <03-24-19/0316:10>
How could I forget Mr. Goodman...

Title: Re: HMHVV question
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-24-19/1240:03>
Hoping Mr Goodman will chime in . . .
Hint, hint . . .
Title: Re: HMHVV question
Post by: Tethra on <09-18-19/1957:58>
There were ghouls in Earthdawn. Their description said they were tainted by horrors.

Dark Terrors mentions "LILITU", but itīs "RISTUL".

Aetherology mentions the "Daemon-Sultan", but itīs "RISTUL".
Title: Re: HMHVV question
Post by: CanRay on <09-20-19/2228:35>
OK, so, no Patrick Goodman, but Kevin Czarnecki spoke up about this, which might or might not have been modified by me.  Or not.  It's me after all, who knows?   ;D  And, imagine, I have yet to write as Slamm-0! or Kane somehow, go figure!

"So, I'll answer as I see it come. 🙂

Critias is elves. CrimsonDude is corps. I was Red but that seems to be gone (Now it's AVampireCalledRed if it ever actually works, and Infected are mine. 🙂 )

HMHVV's history reaches back to at the least the 4th World. It's definitely not modern engineered, as it has been mentioned since Earthdawn, though never fully explored there. And it's appeared in the 5th world, sporadically. It HAS been tweaked by corps and the Ordo Maximus, among other groups, but none have managed to fully explore it's potential. There was the Terminus Experiment, which was successful, but all research was destroyed, as well as the one workable subject. Yakashima did manage to make an HMHVV-derived genetic "sleeves" to make geneware possible after nanites were no longer viable.

It cannot exist outside a biological form, if you mean can it be in a robot or nanite or something. It needs a soul to bond to. There are theories by deVries that the infected soul can be separated from the infected body, possibly to help with a treatment, but that's unproven (I like the idea, just haven't had a reason to explore it as of yet).

I try to keep its origin mysterious, but it's not impossible that it's engineered. Maybe it was a Horror. Maybe it was made to contain a Horror. Maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with Horrors whatsoever because I like messing with people. 😉 I will say, the few people who COULD have known are very, very long gone, and what few creatures might be able to piece together that puzzle never actually put in the effort, nor have any real desire to.

HMHVV didn't have ONE patient zero, it had a BUNCH. Some vampires and other infected maintained their nature through the 5th World. But for most, the virus was, effectively, sleeping in their systems until the manasphere could awaken it. There wouldn't be any sleepers anymore, given current events, but once upon a time, it might have been rabies, porphyria, who knows? But they popped up all over the world, not just in one spot.  (Ray:  HIV and AIDS are other possibilities.).

Patrick Goodman was/is my mentor before he left Catalyst. Now Infected are my speciality.

ED DID mention vampires exactly once.

Patrick asked I take this. He says he's crazy out of the loop. 😉

Man did I put a LOT into Dark Terrors. In addition to the whole Asamando chapter, I supervised the artifacts and scraps chapter where LILITU happens. It's setting up something bigger coming over the horizon. 🙂"

So, there you go.  Freelancers talking.  Woo.

All I know is that my crew of RPGers and Playtesters had a choice between Ghoul Cab and Dragon Taxi, and went with Ghoul Cab.  Easier to dispose of bodies and pay cab fare that way.
Title: Re: HMHVV question
Post by: AVampireCalledRed on <09-20-19/2304:43>
HAH! Now it works!

Can confirm CanRay's words. :)