Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Devil on <09-11-10/1211:18>
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What happens if the authorities MAD scan you and find out you have illegal implants like Aluminum Bone Lacing. Do you serve time, pay a fee? Do they remove it, do you get to keep it? Do they just kill you?
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Bone Lacing is F (I don't understand why, though), so probably, yes, they would remove it and yes, you would very likely go to jail - even carrying a Restricted (R) gun without permit can end you in jail, so there is probably no question about F-Items.
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If you can get your hands on the old SR2 sourcebook "Sprawl Sites", there's a chapter called "Sprawl Law" with a table on fines and punishment. Bone Lacing for example would be classified as Class B Cyberware, possession of which is punished with a 20000 Nuyen fine (and probably removal of said cyberware).
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Unfortunatly, such lists tend to change with the author :-) Muscle Enhancements are also Typ B there, but only "R" in 4rd Edition. Personally, I would prefer "R" for Bone-Lacing, too, I don't see why it should be such a big deal.
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If I have illegal Cyberware how do I protect myself from scans?
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Get a hacker to spoof the machine. ;)
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Get a hacker that inserts licences for the 'ware into your SIN. Either that or get said hacker to hack the scanner, no other way I could think of.
And regarding the list, it doesn't take R and F into account, it just cathegorizes weapons, 'ware and crimes and tells you fines and punishments for possession, use, etc. I guess when it comes to that list, R and F only tell you if its even possible to get a licence for the stuff.
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i agree that bone lacing should be legalized (read restricted). bone density augmentation is restricted and does the same thing, but even for bioware its rediculously expensive. as far as illegal implants there are some devices in arsenal which confuse mad scanners but either than that the best bet is a good hacker or the old fashioned dont get caught with it.
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I'll check out my options in Arsenal. Thanks everyone.
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If you're running around with bone lacing, you should be so terrifying that a cop wouldn't dream of hassling you without backup from a SWAT-type cyber-hunter squad. He might hit an alarm and run for his life, but he wouldn't try to arrest you, as that should be suicide.
One thing which I've allowed in my games to make Forbidden cyberware less of a form of character death, is I've allowed for disguise checks to be made to obfuscate their function. For instance, you have the Aluminum for the bone lacing painted with runic symbols using wifi-inhibiting paint before it is installed. Now the scanner doesn't know what to make of its readings. The guard alerted by the confused scanner makes an inquiry, and you Con your way past with an "I'm from the Containment zone. My bones are inlaid with silver to fight bug possession." or whatever lie. There's limits to this of course, but it's better than making a character worthless because he wanted a little metal in him.
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If you're running around with bone lacing, you should be so terrifying that a cop wouldn't dream of hassling you without backup from a SWAT-type cyber-hunter squad. He might hit an alarm and run for his life, but he wouldn't try to arrest you, as that should be suicide.
We are talking here about a piece of cyberware that is a) not visible without a scanner or something like that and b) not even remotely as dangerous as, for example, a gun. Ok, the cop will perhaps need one shot more to kill you, perhaps, and IF he let's you get into reach, your punches are pretty damaging - but a steel rod and a kevler west will do the same. Somehow I think you overestimate the effect of bonelacing a little bit.
One thing which I've allowed in my games to make Forbidden cyberware less of a form of character death, is I've allowed for disguise checks to be made to obfuscate their function. For instance, you have the Aluminum for the bone lacing painted with runic symbols using wifi-inhibiting paint before it is installed. Now the scanner doesn't know what to make of its readings. The guard alerted by the confused scanner makes an inquiry, and you Con your way past with an "I'm from the Containment zone. My bones are inlaid with silver to fight bug possession." or whatever lie. There's limits to this of course, but it's better than making a character worthless because he wanted a little metal in him.
Honestly, I would simply rule Bone Lacing being "R", as, for example, a smartlink is much more dangerous and much more active than bone lacing (which is, mainly, a kind of armor you wear inside your body). But if you have, for example, a grenade launcher installed in your cyberarm, well, then you should think about ways to prevent getting scanned by cops or something like that.
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Get a licence for your ware on your fake SIN - think to give a good reason, a medical or a professionnal reason works well -, it's clearly the best, but there's too some electronic devices in the runner's companion (p.33) which can allow you to fool a MAD, though they ain't perfect.
Physical illusion spell may help, assuming you've got the advanced masking metamagic and there's no astral ward.
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you cant even get liscenses for "F" Items
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Might be a little difficult do explain why a bodyguard (if you even went the way of trying to logically explain why you have the stuff) needs an HMG with APDS and matching 'ware for use of it, though. And that IS gonna happen, personel checking you will get suspicious if something about you and the SIN doesnt make sense.
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On the other hand, I don't really understand why the same bodyguard shouldn't have bone lacing.
Who can use bone lacing if bodyguards can not ?
This "F" rating seems a bit strange some times.
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Military and police types are likely the ones licensed to use them. It's kinda that old saw, if you walk down the street in a bullet-proof vest in real life, the cops are going to assume you are there to cause trouble. In this case, having bones that will shatter a normal person's skull indicates that you not only expect trouble, you expect to be a part of it.
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Umm... Guys? The most "obvious" reason for bone lacing?
"I'm a retired combat biker/urban brawler/football player and I didn't like to get my bones broken."
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A good reason among over, yes, as the medical reason "my bones are too weak", but whatever the reason you give is, it's still "F" rated.
I understand a "F" rate for a HMG, since it's not somethin you're supposed to carry out of some specific areas, but cyberware isn't somethin you can leave in cloakroom once your job is done.
Licences may be harder to forge for F rated gear, but it shouldn't be impossible.
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RAW is, that licenses can only be obtained for restricted items or activities. It especially states, that F items may never be carried, etc. by a private person, meaning that you would have some special cover story (which probably will be checked more thoroughly). Just waving a licence will not be enough, as there simply is no license for carrying an F-rated gear.
Example: No matter what you do, a private person will never be allowed to carry a loaded rocket launcher around. You can't simply wave a license around. You will have to convince the person checking that you are, at the moment, part of a military or corporate high threat response team or something like that. And this won't be easy when standing alone in downtown :-)
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Yeah, well, you're right, but then I don't understand why bone lacing has the same rating than a rocket launcher.
As said before, you can be allowed to shoot with a rocket launcher, maybe you're a soldier, maybe you just do test for military research, or somethin like that, you can leave your rocket launcher at work and you've got no reason carrying it in downtown. But you can't leave cyberware at work. Then can't soldiers go downtown ?
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Another medical reason for bone lacing Osteogenesis Imperfecta (Brittle Bones disease) (http://orthopedics.about.com/cs/pediatricsurgery/a/oi.htm).
I agree, it still would require a license, but if you have this built into your fake SIN, then they might not look as hard at the license.
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As I said, I simpy agree with anotherJack: I cannot see why Bone Lacing should be F :-) Trying to maneuver around the problem by claiming that such a cyberware is the apropriate treatment for an illness isn't the best way to deal with it, imho.
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As I said, I simpy agree with anotherJack: I cannot see why Bone Lacing should be F :-) Trying to maneuver around the problem by claiming that such a cyberware is the apropriate treatment for an illness isn't the best way to deal with it, imho.
Agreed. Seems like a mistake to me, too.
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Since bone lacing isn't easily visible on easy way around it is don't put yourself into a position to be MAD scanned. Does the MAD come back with he has cyberware or does it tell the user of it he has this exact implant.
If it only says bone lacing for example get a license for the R plastic lacing and play it off as that
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MAD doesn't scan for cyberware, we're talking about cyberware-scanners here. Reach the threshold and it tells you, that there's something on the bones. Get more hits than the threshold and it will tell you, what is probably on the bones.
And as Plastic is also F, your idea doesn't work (with RAW), sorry.
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I'd really like to see how a cyberware scanner is able to not only pick up, but identify a bunch of PLASTIC crafted to the skeletal structure ;D
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Hm, Shadowrun was never realistic, but I can imagine that scanning the density (and other factors) of the human body and comparing it to how it SHOULD be is the way to go for it.
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just solve it by going the the Runners Companion, flip to page 35 and use the items there. Just keep a Single use MAD jammer with you for the occasional cop stop and if you have to go thru a standing scanner use the anti MAD nanites.
(Not that it will do any good. IMO if they have standing MADs they will have cyber scanners and Radar scanners) ((OTOH regualer jammers will get you past those..... So yeah, I guess yer good.))
Or if you have cyber limbs use the MDS subdermal sheath.
MADs really arent that bad, they just detect metal, not what kind or what it is. Also remember Alpha, Beta and Delta up the threshold for scanners to. And that's ALL scanners not just MADs.
Massive Cyber junkie here. I've gone thru all this MANY many times.
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What's really fun is when you have obvious cyber and you use jammers to hide the non-obvious stuff. Nothing like walking through a scanner with chrome cyberarms and the scanner tells the operator that it's a normal person. ;D
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Yeah, the cops will surely have a great laugh.
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What happens if the authorities MAD scan you and find out you have illegal implants like Aluminum Bone Lacing. Do you serve time, pay a fee? Do they remove it, do you get to keep it? Do they just kill you?
Yes, any or all of those.
What works for your story and characters? Can they bribe the authorities? Can they spoof the scanner? Can they Intimidate the guard? Do they fight their way out? Do they go meekly to jail and make a new character?
I had one PC with the bone lacing go through a check point and simply stare at the guard using the MAD scanner and make his intimidate roll.
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When the guy with the scanner gets that alarmed look on his face, it's not the end of the world.
It's time for Negotiations! ;D
Some choose the bribery or fast talking versions. Others will opt for more aggressive methods.
-karma
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If you're running around with bone lacing, you should be so terrifying that a cop wouldn't dream of hassling you without backup from a SWAT-type cyber-hunter squad. He might hit an alarm and run for his life, but he wouldn't try to arrest you, as that should be suicide.
We are talking here about a piece of cyberware that is a) not visible without a scanner or something like that and b) not even remotely as dangerous as, for example, a gun. Ok, the cop will perhaps need one shot more to kill you, perhaps, and IF he let's you get into reach, your punches are pretty damaging - but a steel rod and a kevler west will do the same. Somehow I think you overestimate the effect of bonelacing a little bit.
I wasn't really referring to the appearance or function of bone lacing and how scary that is.
It was more of a comment on the psychology of a person who wakes up and decides that it's a good idea to undergo massive full body surgery in order to have his bones fused with titanium.
You know, from a character perspective.
It's a messed up thing that takes a messed up guy to pursue.
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Ummm how about a license that proves I was used as a test subject for a "New" density process... And Muscle Aug & Toner process? What? I was a lab animal in my previous life?
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I ended up going with Plastic Bone Lacing. While still illegal, it is not quite so bad. Additionally, I think it will be harder to detect. Especially since it is Alphaware.
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Both plastic and ceramic bone lacing is harder to detect than the metal lacings. That doesn't mean a good x-ray scan won't pick it up, just that it needs to be a nicer one.
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Yeah but a beat cop won't have an X-ray.
X-rays and radar and Good cyberscanners are all reserved for Fixed/imbeded locations. those things are big and need power and a good matrix connection. When you need to go past these then worry about it, but as for the beat cop stoping you. Just take regular precations and it'll be fine.
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The Radar Cyberware implant from Augmentation functions as a millimeter wave (cyberware) scanner.
You can fit two of them in a cyberhand. They run off your bioelectric field.
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Yes, they are quite small. But, again, the scanner needs to be pretty good to pick up the plastic or ceramic lacings. Especially the plastic, as polymers can be made to mimic living tissues quite easily. The portable ones may not have the horsepower to do it, but the fixed ones definately would.
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Its not just bone lacing we're talking about, that was an example. Tailored pheramones would have the same probs. As for your medical reasons; bone density augmentation is a far more likely treatment for brittle bone,as a thats legalish and b the medical corp which caried out the treatment can get more money out of you.
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Yes, they are quite small. But, again, the scanner needs to be pretty good to pick up the plastic or ceramic lacings. Especially the plastic, as polymers can be made to mimic living tissues quite easily. The portable ones may not have the horsepower to do it, but the fixed ones definately would.
Talking sensibly, definitely. The rules aren't sensible, though.
RAW lists cyberware by grade for identification purposes, regardless of composition.
And your MAD proof-ceramic gun only takes one hit on a cyberware scanner to find.
It's dumb.
Which is why house rules become necessary to keep forbidden ware in the game.
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Yeah. One scan and I'll need a new character or a new soul, depending on who (if anyone) bails me out! ::)
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Security chief interrogating recently captured Street Samurai: "So, you like cyberware do you? My superiors have an offer for you..."
Deliciously evil grin follows.
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Security chief interrogating recently captured Street Samurai: "So, you like cyberware do you? My superiors have an offer for you..."
Deliciously evil grin follows.
yeah... something like that. it'll take weeks to get the heeby jeebys off!
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Bone lacing cannot be picked up on MAD scanners. Plastic is obvious but Aluminium is not a ferrous metal like steel or iron, i don't think Titanium is either. A cyber scanner will pick it up though. Check page 262 in the core rulebook. Just back to shadowrun after a long time out but info for stuff seems to be spread all over the place! A metal needs to be ferrous to create a magnetic field, hope this helps. (Of course your GM may just put cyber scanners everywhere instead of MAD's)
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Dude?
MAD= Magnetic Anomaly Detection . . Why would plastic(non ferrous, even non METALLIC) be detected by that? Why woult PLASTIC be obvious of all things?
EVERYTHING METAL has an impact on Magnetic Fields, be they ferrous metals or not, i think . .
And Aluminium/Titanium are Metals. Even without being ferrous metals, they still have more impact on the magnetic field than Plastic and Kevlar . .
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Dude?
MAD= Magnetic Anomaly Detection . . Why would plastic(non ferrous, even non METALLIC) be detected by that? Why woult PLASTIC be obvious of all things?
EVERYTHING METAL has an impact on Magnetic Fields, be they ferrous metals or not, i think . .
And Aluminium/Titanium are Metals. Even without being ferrous metals, they still have more impact on the magnetic field than Plastic and Kevlar . .
exactly.. an X-Ray would be soooooo old-fashioned and crude in the 2070 era.. think about the CURRENT "magnetic field detectors" like MRI's and CAT scanners. They can detect the difference in density that can indicate a lesion deep inside the human body. I'm pretty sure that they'd be able to detect plastic, titanium, etc. They're looking for specific densities that indicate certain materials.
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On the plastic, i said that "bonelacing cannot be detected by MAD. plastic is obvious...." i meant that it is obvious that plastic cannot be detected. On the Aluminium yep my bad, it can be but is hundreds of thousands of times less sensitive than ferrous metals. Shadowrun being the future the MAD's are up to the task. Thanks for putting me straight.
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It was more of a comment on the psychology of a person who wakes up and decides that it's a good idea to undergo massive full body surgery in order to have his bones fused with titanium.
You know, from a character perspective.
It's a messed up thing that takes a messed up guy to pursue.
And old women with osteoporosis.
There's some real oddities with what's legal and not in SR. I wish I could say it's a commentary by the authors on the absurdity of what's legal and illegal in modern life. But with the possible exception of deepweed, I think a dartboard was involved instead.
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A moving magnet will create eddy currents in pretty much any metal that should be able to be detected pretty easily.
Won't detect plastics, sure, but aluminum, copper, etc no problem.
-k
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It was more of a comment on the psychology of a person who wakes up and decides that it's a good idea to undergo massive full body surgery in order to have his bones fused with titanium.
You know, from a character perspective.
It's a messed up thing that takes a messed up guy to pursue.
And old women with osteoporosis.
There's some real oddities with what's legal and not in SR. I wish I could say it's a commentary by the authors on the absurdity of what's legal and illegal in modern life. But with the possible exception of deepweed, I think a dartboard was involved instead.
Which, when you consider RL laws...
Case in point, my FLGS/Army Surplus Store also has a license to store weapons-grade nuclear material. They got it as it's the same permit required to import Airsoft.
No, I'm not joking.
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And you people still wonder why people point and laugh at Canada? O.o
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Dude?
MAD= Magnetic Anomaly Detection . . Why would plastic(non ferrous, even non METALLIC) be detected by that? Why woult PLASTIC be obvious of all things?
EVERYTHING METAL has an impact on Magnetic Fields, be they ferrous metals or not, i think . .
And Aluminium/Titanium are Metals. Even without being ferrous metals, they still have more impact on the magnetic field than Plastic and Kevlar . .
Okay, I'm a Licensed Security Officer and Crowd Controller and I've used hand-held MAD wands in my day-to-day work. And Stahlseele isn't far off. I've picked up the tiny amount of aluminium in a condom wrapper. I've picked up a single, half-millimeter of steel in a persons stitches (3 stitches). I've picked up the staples in someone's stomach, the 5 cent piece someone swallowed on a dare. Now, the guy standing next to me has used the same thing on the same people and gotten nothing, because he didn't use it properly. (Hint: I use the wand to also pat you down. I didn't lay hands on your junk, but I still know how much you're packing.)
The point is, in the hands of a trained operator, the stuff two-bit operations that I've worked with can pick up ANYTHING with even the SMALLEST AMOUNT of METAL. Ferrous, non-ferrous. I don't care. Metals, even those that aren't attracted to magnetic fields, still distort them. Now, a MAD system won't pick up plastic. But it might pick up the ceramic or kevlar. "Uh, whu?" I hear some of you say? Yeah, I know, here's where you need to understand these materials. Kevlar... well, there's Kevlartm and there's Kevlar. Original Kevlar, the trademark, no. But almost nobody uses that any more. But modern "kevlar" is made of stuff like Gortex, or Spectra-weave. It also often includes metallic threads, which an MAD can pick up. Ceramics are both worse, but better, because it can depend on the aggregate within the clay. If it's an oxide, or composite, then it might contain alumina, at which point it would depend on the density of the ceramic in question, but for the most part, you're not likely to get a reading. It's not that the field isn't getting distorted, but it probably won't be enough metal to distort the field enough to be noticed.
But then we get to how a Cyberware scanner works (supposedly). It's just an MAD scanner with a sophisticated expert system monitoring the distortions, coupled with a camera, a millimetric radar and an imaging processor. Now to really blow your minds. You know how there's calcium in your bones? Calcium is a metal. The Cyberware scanner knows how much distortion to expect, not only on the MAD, but on the radar, and when it detects the anomalous distortion, it checks it against it's database in a manner similar to object recognition software. Which also goes to explain why higher grades of cyberware is the primary determiner of how difficult something is to detect. It doesn't matter how big the object is, what matters is how close to how you're "supposed" to look it is, and that's a function of grade. And even plastic will alter the density readings from the radar.
EDIT: Oh, two other things I've picked up with my wand. I've picked up the titanium pin in a guys shoulder, but that's not hard. PURE titanium is brittle as hell, but titanium ALLOYS, that's the strong stuff. The second thing was a bottle of Jack Daniels tucked into the armpit of a guy's jacket. He'd removed the metal cap and sealant ring, replacing it with a cork. Not only did I hear and feel the clink of my wand against the glass, but the MAD went off. Why? Because of the TINY amount of metal in the label's PAINT.
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Titanium shows up on scans. I have a "cyborg" friend (He got hit by a speeding dump truck with a full load of sand in Texas) and he has to have a half-dozen papers and writs of mother-may-I and such just to enter the USA, as he sets off every security system even if bare ass naked.
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Titanium shows up on scans. I have a "cyborg" friend (He got hit by a speeding dump truck with a full load of sand in Texas) and he has to have a half-dozen papers and writs of mother-may-I and such just to enter the USA, as he sets off every security system even if bare ass naked.
Really? I've got a full titanium rod inserted into my right femur (nasty car accident, shatter the femur in two places, had to regrow 'around' the rod). I've yet to set anything off, even the new full-body x-ray scans.
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Weird. Maybe they turn up the sensitivity due to his Canadian Passport?
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Nah its probably because its encased in bone. Its harder to detect something within something. That would be like determining that there is a copper rod inside the titanium rod. A scanner wouldn't be able to tell you that, but you would be able to find that out with a bit of deep imaging. And those stand up scanners are a joke, they don't see anything beyond the skin, and they see more things that AREN'T there than that ARE there. OMG ITS A BOMB on wait its a fat guy with armpit sweat...
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Yeah, flying in the USA: "Do I want to be molested, or microwaved?"
I think I'll take the train or a bus, thank you.
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Before 9/11, I flew a lot for roll-outs and such for my job. I also used to where this "chain" around my wrist that took me about 20 minutes to put on/take off. The one time I forgot to take it off before going to the airport, I was heading to the regular scanner and told the sec guy my problem. He told me to hold my wrist against my chest and wrap my other hand around the wrist. The scanner never went off.
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Yeah the walk through scanners at airports are a joke...
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And we don't even have illegal implants yet!
I really worry about people who have life-giving "cybernetics" today, like my Father who has a Defribulator installed in him. "Simple" microwave ovens used to cause things like that to die. What do the untested scanners do, especially if your job requires you to go through them constantly?
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Before 9/11, I flew a lot for roll-outs and such for my job. I also used to where this "chain" around my wrist that took me about 20 minutes to put on/take off. The one time I forgot to take it off before going to the airport, I was heading to the regular scanner and told the sec guy my problem. He told me to hold my wrist against my chest and wrap my other hand around the wrist. The scanner never went off.
Scan gates are a joke, which is why we stuck with the wands. Even the cheap crap we were using was far better, provided you used it correctly.
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one of my workers husbands is basically cybernetic. he has 6 inches of titanium mesh spine, a metal shin, and a battery powered heart regulator. he would be alot of fun at airports.