[OneofSorrow]

Didn't quiet know where to put this one, was debating the general form but I'm asking for GM assistance, at least for the GM who is running my game.  So there comes a time in a runners career when they have they just can't help attracting the attention of corporate big wigs or in the case of our group the UCAS IC(Intelligence Community).  For normal runners a contract with a corporate contract means that they have a safe port to call in the shadows at least with whatever company they decide they sign on with, although you are still deniable assets.  In our case with are being called Black Assets by the IC and will be having to play spy games and missions that represent the interest of the UCAS.  I'm getting alittle off topic.  My GM and I, seeing how we trade off running every now and then,are trying to come up with a sort of boot camp package seeing as the UCAS is going to ship off characters to some out of the way training facility to make sure that they get the most bang for their buck out of their assets, this is going to actually be some what RPed out because they'll be spending 6 month to a year training us.  We are trying to come up with a karma package to represent the UCAS training montage that we'll be going through to represent a year of basic training that one would subject the standard soldier too.  Was wondering if you folks might have any suggestions for that. 

[Namikaze]

Interesting idea and challenge.  I would suggest that you consider what the minimum skill qualifications are going to be for your team when they come out of boot camp.  Then takes the amount of karma that will be necessary for the weakest person to reach those minimums, and give that pool to the players with the understanding they have to at least meet the minimum qualifications before they can "graduate".

Because they're being trained constantly, it's hard to know what kind of karma to give out.  Most runners take a job every few weeks, or even months.  This gives them time to let the heat cool off, etc.  But in boot camp, you get the equivalent experience gain of a job constantly.  The instructors might have to work extra hard to get these guys in line, but they're willing to do what it takes because their superiors have said that this team needs to be ready by X day.

Therefore, I'd go off of cross-training times.  The hacker isn't just going to be a hacker when this is over with.  They're going to be a hacker who can shoot, run, climb, swim, survive in the wild (maybe), etc.

[OneofSorrow]

Therefore, I'd go off of cross-training times.  The hacker isn't just going to be a hacker when this is over with.  They're going to be a hacker who can shoot, run, climb, swim, survive in the wild (maybe), etc.

That is the idea.  Considering our group to consists of two deckers it is going to be interesting to see how they deal with boot camp training.  One of the things they do plan to grill us on is squad tactics as well, so that we act more like a cohesive unit.  Also we are wondering how much the runners would get paid monthly salary when they are not doing runs for 'supplemental income.'

[Namikaze]

Is the plan to give the runners their gear when it's all over with?  If so, then they get zilch.  Room, board, training, gear.

[OneofSorrow]

Well they get the gear that they had back at least.

[Furious Trope]

Well they get the gear that they had back at least.

<3

And they ought to be happy with that.

[RHat]

I'd suggest you determine pay to be in line with the karma package, myself, so as not to throw off advancement.

[Namikaze]

If they're only getting what they put into it, then they should get some pay commensurate with the time spent not doing runs.  If they're getting all new gear then that's a whole different story.

[Senko]

Seems to me there's three ways to do this.

First off the training package way. This method is aimed at producing soneone with a given skills package. That is you take a set number of abilities that they will have at the end and give it to them. For example athletics group 4, automatics, tracking, survival all at 4 (professional level) and say +1 to physical stats (sample suggestion only). That is they graduate boot camp with the necessary skills for a special forces soldier I.e. fit, able to live off the land and run through an obstacle course. If they didn't have them before they're pushed to new limits, if they did they laugh at. Actual training package obviously depends on how much of a power up you want to give them, could perhaps look at real world boot camps for training times and final skill set.

Second is the specialist way you give them a number of points/karma to buy up what they like e.g. a mage initiating

Third is the hybrid way in which you work out a basic training package of skills an experience soldier should have as per the first method but to keep things fair if someone already has something from that package e.g. a street Sam with automatics they get that amount of karma e.g. automatics 1 = 2 karma to spend on a gm approved option. For example if a street Sam had automatics 4 he might instead get demolitions 4 as the groups explosive expert while a rigger who had automatics might expand theur skillset to include pilot water craft for amphibious operations.

[markelphoenix]

Training and work level wise, would you say they'd be doing tasks and responsibilities commensurate with work that an enlisted soldier would do or an Officer? Based upon that, I would look at modern day US pay-scale for a soldier of comparative rank, try to convert as best as possible to Nuyen (if a candy bar costs x Dollars and y Nuyen, use that conversion basis for rough numbers). Then, take time in boot-camp and apply that salary.

[cantshutup]

[a little late to the party here, but bear with me, I'm new ]That's a very interesting idea! And amazing potential too, both for roleplaying and campaign opportunities.

Getting karma through training and getting karma through doing runs are very different things, so I would not worry much about giving out points proportional to time spent training. As for the skills themselves, I think the basic loadout would be [in SR4 terms] Athletics, Unarmed Combat, at least 1 more weapon skill for non-combat specialist, Pilot Groundcraft for everyone (so anyone can drive the car), Survival training with different specializations, possibly Infiltration, some Knowledge (Tactics).

Then added to that are specialist packages: Demolitions, Gunnery, Heavy Weapons, Pilot Watercraft and Pilot Aircraft. At least one of the people on the team has to have one of these skills. Probably throw in Diving there too, and maybe even Parachuting, depending on the plans UCAS has for them. For combat specialists there is more weapons training, obviously, hackers can pick up specializations for skills and program better programs, mages... actually I'm not sure what mages can do, they'll probaby have enough trouble keeping up as it is

Figure out the karma cost of the basic loadout, then figure out the karma cost for specialist loadouts. Give out the karma to people doing the training to raise their skills to the needed levels. Everything left over is theirs to deal with how they see fit. So if your rigger already has Demolitions 2 and your Demolitions training package includes Demolitions 4, then the rigger buys the skill up to 4 and blows the rest on Blades (Peeling Potatoes) 2.

Also, depending on how detailed you want the roleplaying to be, you can have training exercises and give out additional karma to people who do exceptionally well on those.

As for money, I would give them room and board and the basic allowance, and at the end of the training let them have access to a limited selection of military-grade gear. It wouldn't be top-of-the-line or even in great repair, and probably have some other restrictions on it, but toys are cool. Everyone loves toys.

Also, may I suggest finishing off the training by having them participate in a big wargame? You're no doubt already planning that, but.

[cantrip]

These are some really good ideas for karma packages. I personally like the skill/skill groups/attrib points option as opposed to karma, but all ends up being the same in the end.

I had a thought when reading through and just thought I'd toss it out. The UCAS can already take John/Jane Doe and turn them into a soldier; I'm guessing the reason your runners caught the UCAS interest is because they excel in specific areas.

So, maybe instead of the general package boot camp - it could be specialty training. The Samurai learns advanced martial arts, tactics and leadership. Your Face jumps into the espionage arena learning from an Ex-Exec the UCAS pulled out of Horizons. Your Mage/Shaman is introduced to the greater mysteries (if they haven't initiated) as well as working with a team of researches on the cutting edge of spellcasting, conterspelling etc. Your Rigger works on perfecting and picking up further piloting skills - maybe gets introduced to TacNet and some cutting edge drones. Decker hones his skills against the best systems the UCAS has to offer - without the risk of braindeath! (though some deckers feel that's what helps them keep their edge). If you have a technomancer - they can probably teach the UCAS something as well as submerging and possibly working with a UCAS friendly AI.

I'm not suggesting you change your idea about the base karma packages - I think picking up some base skills would be good for rounding out characters, but most runners excel because they are specialists. Maybe a blending of the two?

[OneofSorrow]

I can't take credit for this one myself as a friend and me take turns GMing, I just help with idea and such.  What had happened is the UCAS according to story canon is united finally under the intelligence community in 2073 something that had started in 63 and took this long for all the organizations to communicate.  Now they are playing catch up to keep up with all the Megacorps and Nations that aren't so divided and to so this they are hiring shadowrun teams.  The word hire should be in MASSIVE quotation marks.  I'm not going to go into details but after we had completed a run that took seven actually full day game sessions of us gathering intelligence and bumbling around we managed to complete the mission.  It was tough the geist of the story was the shidem were using alchemical soft drink when combined with certain soy products and novacoke would open a person up for possession and kill the body, they had infiltrated certain governmental and high level positions even having possessed a guy who was running for senator against good old Brackhaven.  So when it comes time to collection our 300,000 nuyen payment, that is for each of us BTW, we have to go into a governmental building, disarm, take our commlinks and sit down and talk with the Johnson.  She sat down paid us and at that time we noticed that the guards at the door and around key places had doubled and that is when we were hired on a more permanent bases as they had presented us with our ENTIRE criminal career in 8 neat little files. 

The boot camp was decided as such, we looked at certain training for federal agents, namely the field operatives and such and picked certain abilities, certain optional abilities, that we could get trained in, there being decker, samurai, rigger, mage, and adept packages as well.  The skills were -GIVEN- to them but no skill could go over 3, this was for basic training in athletics group, firearms group, and survival group because it reflected us running, shooting and being dropped in the wilderness to survive for months on end.  Optional packages were given a specific amount of karma and they could pick skills within that training while the mandatory mage, rigger, and adept courses.  Then we all had to take classes, yes we went to school during boot and had to learn UCAS procedure and policy as well as run laps and do push ups.  Now I must stop and say that if we already have the skill at 3 or higher we just didn't get it, we were exempt from those studies and put into other classes or drilled harder in other departments.  We actually devoted half a session to boot camp and also if we failed boot camp it was go directly to jail too.  But once we were done the GM rewarded us with the skills, +1 to body, strength and intuition to reflect, mental and physical training and 2 extra edge for the amount of luck we had to use to survive the shidem invasion.  The session also totaled out to 27 karma of optional and extra objectives and challenge difficulty as we had to deal with vampires, a toxic shaman who was mixing the soda and the food, capturing a master shedim and all of us surviving.  Plus the UCAS urges us to continue running it is just that we have to report our missions and runs to them now and when they call we have to come.  They don't pay us, they just give us hazard pay along with our regular yearly pay rate of 50,000 plus a extra 2000 for every language you have at rating 4 or above to reflect a language intensive program that is done with agents today.  Most of the team is trying to teach each other languages cause they want higher pay checks.  

[cantrip]

Wow! I'm a long time player (well except for my sabbatical - kids will do that to you!) turning GM over the past few months. Your giving me some goals to strive for. 

You guys put a lot of thought into your campaign and character growth - which is very cool! Now if I didn't have a day job....

I look forward to hearing how this all goes - I especially like the fact the the UCAS has "hired" you, but is holding your criminal records over you. That's so big brother....and corp... and dragon....ah heck, that's just the way it is with runners! LOL