[Ariketh]

This came up in one of my SR4 games. Originally, it was allowed due to the SR4 FAQ ruling that Improved Senses was identical to the Enhanced Sense critter power. And Enhanced Sense - Echolocation works identical to Ultrasound. For balance reasons, the table rule was that it was passive only. It could be heard and not generated, unless one had access to an ultrasound emitter of some sort. (Or bats were in the area, and so on.)

Later, Augmentation was added to the table's pool of resources, and that produced the following earware:

This modification allows the user to hear sounds outside the range of normal metahuman hearing. The user can hear both ultrasonic, high-frequency sounds (including ultrasound emitters) and infrasonic, low-frequency noises. If combined with a voice modulator (p.331, SR4) or vocal range enhancement bioware (p. 67), the user can clandestinely talk in a frequency too high or low for others to hear. The user can control what frequency ranges he listens to, turning them “on” and “off” at will.

Bold mine. It's still passive, to be sure. But it no longer relied on the FAQ, once the appropriate character was modified. However, the GM ruled that the "on/off" for the adept version is akin to trying to hear one voice in crowd. It could be done, but it took concentration and practice. (That is to say, penalties may still apply depending on situation.) Though really, the best part was that Improved Sensitivity provided more advantages than just ultrasound.

How this relates to SR5 is this: The SR5 equivalent to Augmentation hasn't happened yet and we don't know if this particular piece of earware will make the cut or if it will be broken up into multiple augmentations (high vs low). However, there is precedent for Improved Sense to include ultrasound.

At my table, it would probably be allowed, depending on the GM. (Obviously, it would still be a passive, and you'd need an external ultrasound emitter.)

Edited to Add:

Beaumis, the ultrasound sensor works by sending out ultrasound waves, taking the echoes of those waves, and using the software to create a three-dimensional image which it can then overlay on your AR. Metahumans are not equipped to create or hear ultrasonic waves without 'help'. And the software to create 3D images from echoes is certainly not something metahumans are capable of.

I think that's a bit unfair. Bats and their echolocation don't rely on software, so a similar magical sense shouldn't be limited either. I grant that being able to initiate the ultrasound is out reach, unless some other bio/cyber/magical/tech method is used.

Now, if you don't want to allow it because of balance reasons, I'm good with that. Your justification, not so much.

Edit #2: Were we at the same table, as a compromise, I'd be good with Improved Senses (Hearing) as the prereq for Improved Senses (passive Ultrasound). I would be against active ultrasound altogether, unless you had some sort of voice modulation (cyber/bio/magical/tech).

-Ariketh

[Namikaze]

I figure that Motion Sense already does what Ultrasound does, pretty much.  But if I allowed it in my games, and I probably wouldn't, it would be passive only.  Though...  now that I think about it, it would be interesting to allow passive ultrasound as an Improved Sense, and then use Voice Control to create the ultrasonic frequency.  Without giving it more thought, I'd still be leaning toward no.  Mostly because when in doubt, I say no.  There are always tons of unintended side effects and players will find ways to rake their GM over the coals if they get the chance.

[Beaumis]

Beaumis, the ultrasound sensor works by sending out ultrasound waves, taking the echoes of those waves, and using the software to create a three-dimensional image which it can then overlay on your AR. Metahumans are not equipped to create or hear ultrasonic waves without 'help'. And the software to create 3D images from echoes is certainly not something metahumans are capable of.

I certainly agree. Technological ultrasound works that way. Bats however don't. They work without software. We aren't talking about either though. We are talking about magic. That would be the 'help' you mentioned. In a world were dragons fly with wings that are neither strong enough nor have the wingspan to support their weight.

This topic is not about the technical workings of ultrasound and how it could or should work in shadowrun. It's about a fictional 'sense' (for want of a better term) and whether or not it is available to adepts via the improved sense power within the ruleset. I have analyzed that question above and drawn my conclusion, though my continuous reading of this topic keeps it in a state of re-evaluation. You were the one that introduced a dimension not covered in the rules, making assumptions based on your real world understanding of it. Ask yourself if you'd do the same if the sense were called "mapsense" or something else. It seems to me, you're falling victim to a cognitive bias. You read "ultrasound" and assume that your real world understanding of the term applies which is only partially true.

Finally, do feel free to "take out the phonebook" if it makes you feel better. If you wish to convince me of your opinion, you'll have to do better than calling my interpretation BadWrongFun.

[ZeConster]

People have indeed asked this question before, and the first topic has a freelancer (which doesn't mean they're an official authority, but it does mean they're probably a rules expert) saying this:

Ultrasound would not be viable as it turns sound into a visual image. BUT ask your GM about echolocation as a sense.

So it seems 忍 has a point.

[Malevolence]

It sounds to me that we are talking about three integrated mechanisms that create Ultrasound as a usable sense. As a sensory mechanism, it seems that you need the ability to interpret sound waves as a visual medium. This doesn't require being able to transmit them, and this doesn't require ultrasonic frequencies per se. Just the ability to focus on a single frequency and use the delays and other acoustical clues to build a mental model of the physical environment you are in. This seems like it might require Select Sound Filter to pick out a given frequency, and then the actual Improved Sense: Echolocation Adept Power to make use of the filtered frequency band. Sound Filter is allowed as an adept Improved Sense, so we are good here. Since we have examples of people today that can use echolocation, it could even potentially be done without Select Sound Filter. That would have to be decided on a group by group basis.


If you want to be able to work with actual Ultrasound, then you need Audio Enhancement, which can't be used as an Improved Sense as it has a wireless bonus, and might even not expand the hearing range enough to include the Ultrasonic Frequencies used by Ultrasound sensors - it simply states that it allows hearing of sounds above and below normal metahuman hearing range. I don't see any reason not to allow it, but that would be a house rule.


And lastly, you need to be able to generate the sound waves you are using for echolocation. This can be as simple as clicking your tongue (as people today do) or using Ultrasound Transmitters (or some magical voice adept power that I don't think exists in 5e yet). If you opt to use sound waves in the normal human hearing range (if you just take echolocation by itself for .25 PP) then you can use see fine depending on background noise, but everyone else can hear whatever sound source you are using (so if you are using clicks, they can locate you as easily as they can localize any other sound they can hear). With select sound filter, you can reduce or eliminate penalties due to background noise. With Audio Enhancement you can echolocate with sounds that others won't hear, allowing more stealth options.


So, I don't see any real reason to allow echolocation as a .25 PP adept Improved Sense, but with just that you have to use metahuman detectable frequencies and use other means to generate the sounds that you use. You'd be effectively like the blind guys today that use echolocation, though perhaps with better fidelity. It remains a passive only sense just like the other possibilities, and you might even incur penalties due to the lower frequency sound waves not allowing finer details to be noticed, like textures - I'm not an audio expert, but it seems to me that the detectable size limit for audio perception would probably follow something along the lines of 1/2 the wavelength of the sound wave used (https://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/Ultrasonics/Physics/defectdetect.htm), and that doesn't account for scatter over distance, so progressively larger details would become undetectable the further the waves travelled from the generator to you, making the use of remote sound generators incur further penalties.


Exact rules to implement penalties for using lower frequencies and remote sound generators would be handy, but I suspect they could be fairly complex to construct considering the number of total possibilities for implementing echolocation. Bats use between 12khz up to 100khz and higher. Underwater echolocation tends toward the upper end of that spectrum. Human hearing is 20hz to 20khz, meaning that decent echolocation should be possible within the range of normal human hearing. But echolocation can be done using frequency modulation (using multiple frequencies) which provides more detail, but reduced range, or constant frequency, which has better range but poorer resolution and also appears to be good for determining the target's speed due to doppler-shift.


I spend way too much time on Wikipedia. Point being, I couldn't make any rules that might even remotely model real world scenarios, so mostly I'd just apply say a -2 penalty to perception when not using ultrasound for echolocation and another -2 when using a remote audio source, in addition to any environmental mods due to background noise the GM deems appropriate. This means that just taking Improved Sense: Ultrasound (and possibly Audio Enhancement) gives you the ability to hear ultrasound but not echolocate. Improved Sense: echolocation gives you the ability to use sound to echolocate, but not to hear nor produce ultrasound (thus at a net -4 penalty to perception tests). Spending .5 PP for both gets you passive Ultrasound echolocation that would suffer a -2 penalty due to the remote sound generators - though if you carried the generator on your person it could count as local, but you then broadcast your position to other Ultrasound detectors. And so on. I'd also halve the range for not using Ultrasound.


Sorry for the wordiness.

[Xenon]

from a GM point of view I think there is a slight difference between
- having a passive ability to sense ultra high (or low) frequencies (which are two very valid improved senses for 0.25 power points each)

and

- having a passive ability to sense ultra high (or low) frequencies
- the ability to actively emit ultra high (or low) frequencies (that will reflect against and be absorbed by the surroundings)
- have the ability to interpret the ultra high (or low) frequency "echo" to map out the world around you. in real time.

....maybe if the second "power package" would cost 0.75 power points...?


Then again, ultrasound also shut down your eyes while you use it.... so maybe it isn't that bad after all


lol.. Warning - while you were typing 6 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
typed this earlier in the evening. forgot to press post until now.

[Beaumis]

....maybe if the second "power package" would cost 0.75 power points...?

I would immediately agree if the three things you mentioned did something on their own. But they don't. They only work in conjunction with each other.

This is exactly what I meant with my statement that the rules are clearly defined in what ultrasound does and people are overstating the term. The ultrasound sensor (the technological one) does not include high frequency hearing capabilities as a freebie. The sensor is able to pick up high frequencies but the player cannot access or use that information. Its a data stream that the software immediately transforms into the map. Just because there is information does not mean you can interpret that information.

[Xenon]

W00t?
Why would your ultrasound sensor not let you passively "sense" when other sources actively emit ultra high frequencies?

Why would your ultrasound sensor not let you actively emit ultra high frequencies?

 

[Csjarrat]

personally dont see a problem with this.
I've got a friend who works with blind kids in eduction. as part of their life skills and mobility training she teaches them how to echolocate with audible clicks. It's obviously nowhere near the range and skill that bats and dolphins use but its good enough to allow them to move around without banging into too much stuff.
"Magic" would make this more than appropriate for an adept.

[Malevolence]

They only work in conjunction with each other.

But they do, as I demonstrated before.
1. The ability to hear ultrasound allows you to locate ultrasound transmitters and even take advantage of ultrasound communication. Sure, the benefit is minor, which is why the Audio Enhancement audio enhancement wouldn't necessarily be overpowered if it allowed the ability to perceive ultrasound, but it still has uses. If your GM agrees, many items/phenomena could generate sound in the ultrasonic spectrum, providing a bonus to all audio perception tests where these things are involved.
2. The ability to create ultrasound allows discreet communication. Again, there are many ways to do this, so it is underwhelming, but it does still have a function solo. It could, at the GMs discretion, be allowed to cause interference with ultrasonic sensors. And, if you buy into the advertising, scare away (or otherwise negatively impact) mosquitoes and other insects - including insect spirits.
3. Echolocation does not rely on the use of ultrasound. It is less discreet and more prone to interference without ultrasound, but still usable.


Lastly, as has been mentioned, Ultrasound provides more in game benefit than most of the other available vision options and so costing it out higher is a valid alternative to excluding it, which I believe is a better option than including it at the same cost as other senses.


In short, Ultrasound is a range of audio frequencies. The ability to hear them confers the ability to echolocate using them no more than the ability to hear sounds in the normal metahuman audio range. Echolocation is the sense you are looking for, and it does not require ultrasound to function. If you insist on including it as an Improves Sense where you can somehow only perceive ultrasound visually (and thus gain no other benefit from hearing ultrasound), then at the very least make it passive only.

[Beaumis]

W00t?

I could have made that clearer I suppose. In your previous post you named three abilities, suggesting that each might be worth 0.25 PP.

1. "having a passive ability to sense ultra high (or low) frequencies"
2. "the ability to actively emit ultra high (or low) frequencies (that will reflect against and be absorbed by the surroundings)"
3. "have the ability to interpret the ultra high (or low) frequency "echo" to map out the world around you. in real time."

The first is a requirement to gather data. The second is a way to create data and the third is a means to interpret data. If you have the first but not the second and third, you'd simply get mountains of data at random that you cannot interpret. If you only have the second you can create data but you have no means to receive it nor interpret it. The third would allow you to interpret data but you cannot receive it because you lack the ability to access the frequency the data is transmitted on.

Only if you have at least the first and third, the ability to gather and interpret data you have a working ability, though an entirely passive one. Only with all three is your ability mechanically equal to the sensor described in the core rules.

@Malevolence: In the real world you would be right but we are talking about an abstract ruleset. In this ruleset, the ability to "hear" high and low frequency sounds is called "Audio Enhancement". In Shadowrun Ultrasound does not grant the ability to hear anything, but instead does the following: "Visibility shifts one row up, ignore Light conditions (within 50 meters)" (P. 175) In short, Ultrasound may work via audible high frequencies but its effect, in game terms, is not an increase in the audible spectrum but the ability to ignore vision impairments within a certain range.

The question at hand is whether an adept could obtain the ability to use the mechanical effect of: "Visibility shifts one row up, ignore Light conditions (within 50 meters)" via magic at the cost of 0.25PP. That could work via high frequency hearing just like ultrasound in the real world or in some other way. How it works doesn't really matter, what matters is whether an adept with the above ability unbalances the game.

In short: Would an adept with real world ultrasound, with all its implications be unbalanced at 0.25PP? Hell yes. But would an adept with the clearly defined and comparably limited in-game version of ultrasound be unbalanced at the cost of 0.25PP? I don't think so.

I'd like to point out that the cyberware Ultrasound sensor has a capacity cost of [2] which is equal to Low Light, Thermographic and Vision Magnification.

[Malevolence]

In short: Would an adept with real world ultrasound, with all its implications be unbalanced at 0.25PP? Hell yes. But would an adept with the clearly defined and comparably limited in-game version of ultrasound be unbalanced at the cost of 0.25PP? I don't think so.

I'd like to point out that the cyberware Ultrasound sensor has a capacity cost of [2] which is equal to Low Light, Thermographic and Vision Magnification.

Based on in-game effects, yes, it would be unbalanced as "Visibility shifts one row up, ignore Light conditions" is the equivalent of Thermo + Low-light - Thermo shifts visibility one row up and makes Total darkness into Dim light, then low-light makes Dim light into Full light. Yes, it has a 50m range, but that is a limiting factor in a minority of cases.


Secondly, the cyberware Ultrasound sensor capacity is not cybereye or cyberear capacity. It is cyberlimb capacity, so the two capacity costs are not equal. Looking at Essence and Nuyen cost, as that is the only direct comparison you can make, the Ultrasound is .25 essence, compared to .1 for Thermo, .1 for Vision Mag, and .1 for low-light. You can obtain Both Thermo and Lowlight for less than the essence cost of Ultrasound (and to better effect due to no 50m range restriction). But from the cost point of view, Ultrasound is 2.5x the essence cost of a usual sense, making the 3x PP cost suggested a bargain considering the additional benefits it provides over the cyberware option. Looking at Nuyen cost, we see that Ultrasound for some reason has a rating and is Y12k per rating (up to 6), compared to Low-light and Thermo that are a straight Y1500 each. So Ultrasound is 8x the cost of the other senses, and that is just rating 1. As it is treated as a sensor, the rating is used as a limit on the perception tests, which if you are simply using it to see targets in poor lighting/visibility conditions (where it effectively eliminates the need for a perception test) that may not be a serious limitation, so we can effectively ignore ratings above 1 for our discussion here.


So, yeah, the same .25 PP cost for Ultrasound as Thermo or Low-light would be unbalanced.

[Beaumis]

I hadn't considered the monetary cost or the difference in capacity. Good point.
In my experience (and games), 50 meters is a pretty hefty limitation, but I realize that a lot of games focus more on building combat were ranges beyond 20m are very rare. In such an environment, the limitation would be less to non-existent of course.

I'm going to have to think on this a little. Thank you.

[Mirikon]

Or, you know, you could skip the whole problem altogether by just getting an ultrasound sensor. Remember, having more senses in your body may make you able to react to more situations, but it also provides Murphy more ways to screw with you. One of the reasons I prefer to use tech instead of magic for hearing outside the audible range on my characters is because you can turn it off if, say, someone decides to jam ultrasound by blasting high frequency waves through the entire building. It is also why I always grab some contacts and throw Flare Compensation on them, because bright lights in the face are bad when you're trying to shoot someone before they can shoot you. And tech keeps working even if I step into someplace with a high Background Count, while magic may fail.

Remember, if everything you have is based on one power source (ware, magic, matrix, gear, etc.), then that leaves gaping holes in your defenses when something comes along that counters that source. Your best bet is to always spread things out, so that if, say, you are in a place with background counts and lose your thermographic vision because of your magic going down, you can still see with the ultrasound sensor or the flashlight attached to your gun. Putting everything in one basket is like making a D&D character that puts everything into boosting their Will Save cringing whenever they have to make a Fort Save, and having to pray for a 20.

[Xenon]

If you have the first but not the second and third, you'd simply get mountains of data at random that you cannot interpret.

If you have the first then you have "high frequency hearing" which, according to the book, is a perfectly viable option for the improved sense power.

SR5 p. 310 Improved Sense
These improvements may include low-light or thermographic vision, high or low frequency hearing, and so on...

If you only have the second you can create data but you have no means to receive it nor interpret it.

If you have the second then you have "high frequency emitting" (which for example let you on-way-communicate with observers that have "high frequency hearing").

The third would allow you to interpret data but you cannot receive it because you lack the ability to access the frequency the data is transmitted on.

Agreed.

In Shadowrun Ultrasound does not grant the ability to hear anything, but instead does the following: "Visibility shifts one row up, ignore Light conditions (within 50 meters)" (P. 175) In short, Ultrasound may work via audible high frequencies but its effect, in game terms, is not an increase in the audible spectrum but the ability to ignore vision impairments within a certain range.

Two of the effects are that visibility shifts one row up and that you ignore Light conditions (within 50 meters). Another effect is that you get the ability to receive ultrasonic sound - which, for example, let you see other active ultra sound sources (such as motion sensors! or someone else using an ultrasound sensor in active mode... and bats). A fourth effect is that you can emit ultrasonic pulses - which, for example, let you create basic communication with someone that can receive ultrasonic sound. A fifth effect is that you can map out the surroundings and see subjects that are under the effect of invisibility etc...

SR5 p. 365 Motion Sensors
Intruders may detect the ultrasonic field by using an ultrasound sensor set to passive mode within 5 meters...

SR5 p. 446 Ultrasound
The ultrasound accessory consists of an emitter that sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses and a receiver that picks up the echoes of these pulses to create a topographic ultrasound map. Ultrasound is perfect to “see” textures, calculate distances between objects, and pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked eye (like people cloaked by an Invisibility spell), it can’t handle colors or brightness. It also can’t penetrate materials like glass that would be transparent to optical sensors. You can set it to a passive mode, where it doesn’t emit ultrasonic pulses but still picks up ultrasound from outside sources, such as motion sensors or someone else’s ultrasound sensors on active mode (or bats).

SR5 p. 452 Ultrasound Sensor
This cyberware is exactly like the ultrasound sensor. When active, it replaces your normal vision. It can be switched between active sonar, passive sonar, and off with a Free Action.

I'd like to point out that the cyberware Ultrasound sensor has a capacity cost of [2] which is equal to Low Light, Thermographic and Vision Magnification.

I like to point out that cyberware ultrasound sensor have a capacity cost of [2] for cyberlimbs.
Low Light, Thermographic and Vision Magnification have a capacity cost of [2] for cyber eyes
They don't use the same scale.