NEWS

Improved Sense: Ultrasound

  • 48 Replies
  • 16686 Views

忍

  • *
  • Guest
« on: <11-10-14/0210:31> »
I understand that there has been debate as to whether or not one can take Improved Sense for ultrasound, however I want to bring the power's wording in question to attention.

"...Any sense enhancement provided by cyberware or bioware can be provided by this power..." 310 pg.

The ultrasound sound cyberware is included in headware and doesn't enhance any sense. Conversely low-light, sound filter, and such are enhancements to senses.

Thus I conclude one cannot take Improved Sense: Ultrasound. Thoughts?

Namikaze

  • *
  • Freelancer Ltd
  • Prime Runner
  • **
  • Posts: 4068
  • I'm a Ma'fan of Shadowrun!
« Reply #1 on: <11-10-14/0228:58> »
I agree.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

Quote from: Stephen Covey
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.

Lethal Joke

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 227
  • Hahahahahahaha
« Reply #2 on: <11-10-14/0240:40> »
I agree.
Yeah, pretty much this.

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6468
« Reply #3 on: <11-10-14/0845:17> »
If you want a new sense that does not enhance your vision or audio etc and still leet you "see" even while blindfolded then you might want to look at astral perception rather than ultrasound....

Lucean

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1159
« Reply #4 on: <11-10-14/0915:12> »
Although that has other drawbacks as costing 1 PP instead of 0.25 and in addition not allowing to use Perception by requiring using Assensing tests to get detailled information.

Namikaze

  • *
  • Freelancer Ltd
  • Prime Runner
  • **
  • Posts: 4068
  • I'm a Ma'fan of Shadowrun!
« Reply #5 on: <11-10-14/1004:30> »
Danger Sense is also useful for those times when you are blinded.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

Quote from: Stephen Covey
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.

MijRai

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1845
  • Kane's Understudy
« Reply #6 on: <11-10-14/1049:09> »
I would personally allow it, as really, ultrasound is an 'enhancement' to hearing, even if it's not under earware. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Beaumis

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 255
« Reply #7 on: <11-10-14/1943:51> »
Thus I conclude one cannot take Improved Sense: Ultrasound. Thoughts?
No offense, but your quote is incomplete and therefore misleading. Unintentionally I presume. The relevant passages should include:

Quote
This  power  gives  you  sensory  improvements  not normally  possessed  by  your  character’s  metatype. These  improvements  may  include  low-light  or  thermographic vision, high or low frequency hearing, and so  on.  Any  sense  enhancement  provided  by  cyberware  or  bioware  can  be  provided  by  this  power,  unless that enhancement either gives you bonus dice to Perception Tests or needs wireless to work (or both). In addition to the sensory enhancements listed for cyberware  and  bioware,  other  improvements  that  can be selected include:
P. 310 Core
The term improvement is really peripheral because everything provided by magic, bioware or cyberware that is "not normaly possessed by your character's metatype" is an improvement by definition.

 The actual problem here is the distinction between the terms "sensory" and "sense". In the gear section, sensor refers to a subsection of devices that includes ultrasound, while sense, in it's traditional dictionary definition, is limited to the five human senses: sight, hearing, taste, smell and tactile sense. How the power works depends on a simple question: Is the use of the term sensory an intentional statement to extend the scope of the traditional five senses?
 
 There are reasons for and against this:
 1. Pro: The word sense could be used just as elegantly and easily. Rewriting the paragraph with sense instead of sensory makes for well formed english.
 2. Pro: The power specifically mentions exceptions that are not present in bio and cyberware, making those seem all inclusive. (weak)
 3. Contra: The use of sensory is not consistent.
 4. Contra: Sensors in the equipment section is actually an umbrella term for devices that make use of "senses" (for want of a better term). This is a problematic point because this understanding of sensor defines ultrasound as a "sense".
 
 Long story short, the RAW is very ambiguous and I think neither case is particularly strong. RAI on the other Hand makes a case for ultrasound to be acceptable though, in the simple fact that adepts already have a major incentive to go for augmentations for senses because they are that much cheaper. Getting just the simple Thermo & Low Light package with magic costs you as much as fully tricked out cybereyes. (Essence wise) You do sacrifice a magic point but I think we can all agree that it is worth it for most adepts to do so in general. Placing gadgets like ultrasound behind a semantic barrier makes little sense to me when 'ware is already so attractive.
 
 Ultrasound gives away your position to every other ultrasound device in the area and is relatively easily interfered with because the "sound" bounces of everything, including normaly transparent surfaces. Despite what Splinter Cell (and other media) would have us believe, ultrasound does not allow you to see through walls. It's ability to detect invisibility can be gotten via astral perception, watchers and spirits and none of those can be replaced with it entirely, not to mention a simple Perception + Intuition [Mental] [Spellcasting - Force] test (Noticing Magic P. 280 Core). For the mundane, a handheld ultrasound sensor costs all of 100¥ and is available legally in every electronics store. It can be controlled wirelessly and connected to a comlink or trodes to be displayed via AR, so it doesn't even take a hand.
 
 At the end of the day, Ultrasound is a very nice sense, but it's basically a combined low-light + thermographic vision with a range limit of 50 meters. Depending on your game, this may be a severe limitation or not. In mine it is a major one. Personally I think it's worth the 0,25PP but nowhere near overpowered. I'm currently playing a mystic adept that has the sense and so far it has only been used to negate flashpacks. While it's great for distances and "mapping" it's really bad at making minute distinctions between say, a statue and a person. Frankly, as long as it's played the way it's written and not the splinter cell "look through walls" way, it is useful but not more.
« Last Edit: <11-11-14/0453:00> by Beaumis »

adzling

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #8 on: <11-11-14/0026:43> »
motion sense adept powa ftw.
0.5 pp

k_night

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 135
« Reply #9 on: <11-11-14/0520:35> »
motion sense only has a range of (magic) meters  :-\
that's a litle too weak for my taste  :P

Beaumis

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 255
« Reply #10 on: <11-11-14/0615:52> »
True, but as it is currently written, Motion Sense actually does allow you to "see through walls". It's also omnidirectional, which makes it pretty awesome in close quarters.

Still inferior to the detect life spell though.

Jack_Spade

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6516
« Reply #11 on: <11-11-14/0742:27> »
Ultrasound gives away your position to every other ultrasound device in the area and is relatively easily interfered with because the "sound" bounces of everything, including normaly transparent surfaces. Despite what Splinter Cell (and other media) would have us believe, ultrasound does not allow you to see through walls. It's ability to detect invisibility can be gotten via astral perception, watchers and spirits and none of those can be replaced with it entirely, not to mention a simple Perception + Intuition [Mental] [Spellcasting - Force] test (Noticing Magic P. 280 Core). For the mundane, a handheld ultrasound sensor costs all of 100¥ and is available legally in every electronics store. It can be controlled wirelessly and connected to a comlink or trodes to be displayed via AR, so it doesn't even take a hand.

Sensor RFID chips are really useful in that regard if you need a source for ultrasound without giving your own position away.
At our table this was also the solution to the Adept question: They get the Ultrasound sense but no emitter, so they either carry sensor chips or do what everyone else does: Get a Securetech PPP Vitals Kit with a Ultrasound sensor and let their crotch show them the way...
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #12 on: <11-11-14/1041:57> »
Honestly, I wouldn't allow it. Not as one power, at any rate. All the other improved senses are one process. Low-light vision improves sight in those conditions, for instance. You'd need two processes to shift from normal metahuman senses to ultrasound. The first is shifting hearing into high frequency ranges where ultrasound lives. Expanded hearing range is fine as a power. This actually has benefits beyond ultrasound, such as cluing you in when someone's using a dog whistle to summon the hellhounds. The second is the capacity for echolocation, which is what Ultrasound is once you move past anything else. Humans are able to do a rudimentary version of this, under normal circumstances when they have adapted to loss of vision, but it takes a good deal of training, and certainly doesn't give them enough to use in combat. So a power to advance this into an innate ability, to use sound to 'map' an area, would be fine. That's basically Daredevil territory, and he's certainly an adept.

That's two powers for passive ultrasound, which would only work if someone else is using active ultrasound, so you'd be blind most of the time. Active ultrasound would require you a third process, increasing your vocal range so that you can give off ultrasound frequencies. This would also allow you to be a human dog whistle, or to converse with others who can hear ultrasound outside the range of normal conversation (making it extremely hard to eavesdrop on you).

Allowing Ultrasound as a single .25 PP power gives a much higher boost than anything else covered by Improved Sense, and WAY too much utility. We're in phonebook territory here. Don't go trying to break the game.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters

Beaumis

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 255
« Reply #13 on: <11-11-14/1254:06> »
There is no suggestion anywhere in the rules that ultrasound does anything for your hearing. The core book defines ultrasound mechanically as "Visibility shifts one row up, ignore Light conditions (within 50 meters)" (P. 175 Core) and in flavor as: " Ultrasound is perfect to “see” textures, calculate distances between objects, and pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked eye ... " (P. 446 Core)

Ultrasound works in the high frequency spectrum in the real world, but that does not mean that an adept with ultrasound gains enhanced hearing as well and you're the first to suggest so.

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #14 on: <11-11-14/1445:27> »
Beaumis, the ultrasound sensor works by sending out ultrasound waves, taking the echoes of those waves, and using the software to create a three-dimensional image which it can then overlay on your AR. Metahumans are not equipped to create or hear ultrasonic waves without 'help'. And the software to create 3D images from echoes is certainly not something metahumans are capable of.

And please, don't make me get the phonebook out. That was the most rules-lawyery post I've seen in a while, indefensibly so. You're trying to get one of the most powerful abilities available for peanuts, and it is, frankly, the smelliest kind of cheese. Even Packers fans haven't seen that much cheese before.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters