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Commlinks and Personas

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Xenon

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« Reply #30 on: <05-26-22/0636:54> »
SIN and Ownership DO NOT seem to be linked
Agreed.
SINless people are legit matrix owners of their own items. There does not seem to be any requirement that you need to be a legit citizen (to have a SIN) in order for me to legally transfer matrix ownership of one of my devices to you.


To buy that commlink, and the matrix access, you need a SIN.
It does not seem as if SIN and Ownership is connected.


Property that you own is linked to said SIN.
This was perhaps the case specifically in SR4. This seem to have been changed for SR5.

I think here is the big disconnect.


Runners CAN leave Guns they purchased at crime scenes without fear of being caught.
With my reading you buy guns on the black market by trading services or goods or by paying with founds from untraceable certified credsticks. There is no need for having a SIN for that.

With your reading you always need to have a working SIN to own anything. That there will always be a data trail to the SIN you used when buying a gun. With your reading your players need to always be careful about leaving anything at all at a crime scene (even a piece of clothing. like a hat)



Runners CAN get a place to live
With my reading SINless people are not forced to street lifestyle. You can even have high lifestyle (if you accept to live in a less respected area where SIN verification units are not being utilized), but if they want to live in a respected area where they use SIN verification units to validate that they are legit citizens then they would need to first get themselves a fake SIN.

With your reading a SIN is always required for any lifestyle above Squatter. That each lifestyle is connected to a specific SIN. That if your SIN is burned then so is also your entire lifestyle connected to that SIN.


CAN get bank accounts
We both seem to agree that to open a legit bank account at a respected financial institution you typically need to have a SIN (fake or otherwise).
That a if a bank account is linked to a SIN and the SIN is burned then so is your bank account.


I steal some random assholes Commlink, fly to a different country, log into the matrix....
With my (SR5) reading you will not automatically become the legit matrix owner of my commlink just because you are in physical possession of it. According to the matrix it will still belong to me. As its owner I can still legally trace it. As long as it is connected to the matrix and I have means to interface with it remotely over the matrix I (or rather my matrix persona) will even still be connected to the matrix though it. Unless I transfer ownership to you or if you illegally convert ownership of it you probably can't use it to access the matrix. Once you are its legit matrix owner you can reboot both it and your current device and then access the access via the commlink that previously belonged to me. At this point you will get your own matrix persona, not its previous owner's. You will broadcast your own SIN, the commlink will display your contact list, it will use your commcode. Not its previous owner's. I can no longer trace it (unless I manage to place 2 marks on it). If I want to access the matrix I have to do so with another device (that I am the legit matrix owner of).

This might or might not have changed for SR6.


And IF there is NO way to fake, or spoof a Personna, Why are we bothering with SINs??? 
Persona is your online identity that is used to execute matrix actions and to check your email etc.
SIN is used to validate that you are a legit citizen. SIN verification units are placed in the lobby to verify that only legit citizens enters the lobby. To beat a SIN verification unit in order to pretend that you are a legit citizen you simply buy a fake SIN. Social skills and disguise etc is not part of the validation test.

Other security measures are being used to validate who you are or that you belong or that you actually work at the corp (fingerprint readers, facial recognition, corp badges with photo of the employee, close proximity RFID cards, key code combinations, voice recognition, breathe scanners, etc etc). There are pages with counter measures that shadowrunners use to bypass them or if they want to impersonate someone else. Social skills and disguise etc might very well be needed if you attempt to impersonate someone else while you socially infiltrate a corp. Whichever SIN you are broadcasting is not part of this process (if you house rule that it is then it would suddenly become impossible to impersonate someone else - in that case you would probably also need to house rule that identity theft is a thing and where you can -at least temporarily- copy, steal or borrow someone else's SIN.... but this was clearly not the intent of the author).


Clearly SINs are a security risk, while Personnas are "air-tight".
Personas ARE used. A legit user can remotely instruct his own car to open the door. Since he is the owner of the car he can also directly remote control the car himself, using his own skills and attributes.

But they are NOT "air-tight". A hacker that got a mark on a legit user can use that to remotely spoof a command to a car that the user owns, impersonated as the cars legit owner, instructing the car to open the door. Without the hacker having access on the car itself. A hacker that either trick or force the car to illegally accept three of his marks can also legally remote control the car himself, using his own skills and attributes


Why aren't runners getting nuked By G.O.D all the time?
It seem as whenever you bend the rules of matrix you cause ripples that GOD sense and start to back trace back to its original source. But it also seem as if every time the hacker reboot, GOD lose track of of the hacker (but also the hacker will no longer have keep any illegally gained MARKs and OS will be reset as well).


clearly G.O.D knows your Personna, why don't they just keep an eye open for your next log in and continue the attack?
The alternative to not start with a clean slate every time you access the matrix would be that the device you use get burned in some way (similar to back in 2022 when criminals used burner phones). But since cyberdecks are quite expansive it is probably a Good Thing that the authors decided that it should not work like this in Shadowrun ;-)


A perfectly viable strategy for Runners in 1-3e was social engineering your way into a situation that would allow you to ...
I would like to see some synergy between social engineering and hacking.
Perhaps we might get something in the SR6 matrix supplement (cross fingers).


Or you could steal someone's pass card
This is still a valid tactic. You can even use a key card copier to make a duplicate and then palm back the original before its owner notices (Sneakers all over). Proximity RFID cards is one of the many security device that are used to validate that you are you and that you belong.


In 4 to 6e (but I am just gonna talk about 4 and 5..) taking a commlink is a moot point, as it doesn't hold any passcodes or access codes...
Yes, better to just (SR5) remotely sneak your mark on the commlink (or rather the matrix persona that is originating from the commlink as its owner is using it to access the matrix). Once you have that you can impersonate the owners persona by spoofing commands to devices he is the legit matrix owner of. Disguising the instructions as if they came from their legit owner. Without spending action economy to place marks on the devices themselves.


Yes, you can still steal a pass card, and yes you still CAN NOT hack a SIN.
To beat a close proximity RFID scanner you can steal a legit pass card (or make a copy of it or hack it or ...)
To beat a SIN verification unit you buy a fake SIN (you don't steal or borrow someone else's real SIN).


If anything, PERSONNAs should be something that Deckers/Technomancers would want to crack and spoof as they are the "keys" to the matrix playground ...
But they ARE doing that! In order to spoof commands to devices that someone else is the owner of you need to (SR5) first hack the owner's matrix persona. Either by using brute force. Or by using hack on the fly.

The alternative to spoofing commands as if they came from the device's legit owner would be for the hacker to hack each individual device and then remote control it directly.
« Last Edit: <05-26-22/0815:26> by Xenon »

Xenon

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« Reply #31 on: <05-26-22/0714:21> »
There's still useful data to be read/stolen from a commlink.
Agreed.

But none of it require that you physically touch the commlink. As long as the commlink is turned on and connected to the matrix as a whole you typically just hack it (remotely).

You basically only need to have physical possession of it if you plan to actually illegally transfer ownership of it.



SINless guy walks into a store, and hands the clerk $2500 in certified Cred. The Clerk hands SINless Guy a Commlink....

  How does the SINless guy take LEGAL possession of his property??
SR5 p. 237 Ownership
When a commlink is at the store or in a warehouse, the commlink’s owner is its manufacturer (although sometimes stores get ownership of their goods before the buyer does). When you buy that commlink, the store or manufacturer transfers ownership to you.


he has the plastic goodie in his dirty SINless hand... but he doesn't actually own it. (from a LEGAL stand point). YES he paid cash money from his own savings, the clerk acknowledged and affirmed the transaction by handing the SINless Guy the Commlink... But he doesn't LEGALLY own it. (Not in the world of Shadowrun!)
For the first 60 seconds perhaps. Correct.
But once the clerk legally transferred ownership to him he will be the commlink's legit matrix owner.


The reason that he doesn't own it is.... Because he doesn't have a SIN! Full Stop. Everything you own is Registered to a SIN... Remember?
In SR5 it doesn't seem as if your SIN is linked to items you own.
In SR5 it doesn't seem as if you need to have a SIN to buy stuff.

Perhaps you are still thinking of SR4?


I quoted it to you from 2 different sources (and while I don't have the 6e book, I doubt its changed).
You only quoted SR4.
There is nothing about property being linked to a SIN in SR5.


As I have been saying, all your property, be that physical, digital, intangible, is tied back to a SIN.
Again, SR4. This does not seem to be the case for SR5.


Heck, even the initials in your name, city of birth, date of Birth, GPA, credentials, schools attended are all Stored in your SIN, even your DNA... A SIN is the depository of your life.... The digital thumb print that you exist. 
Your SIN (the actual encoded number string) seem to include five pieces of information that can be decoded right out of the encoded number string if you have the correct software.

1. checksum
2. name
3. birth date
4. place of birth
5. and nation that issued the SIN.

The SIN is also linked (used as the primary key in various databases) to many financial activities, medical records, and travel activities etc but they are not actually stored inside (as in encoded into) the system identification number itself.


Without a SIN, there is very little a person can do in the SR universe that interacts with "normal" society...
Because in "normal" society you are required to be a legit citizen (broadcast a SIN). 

And because in "normal" society they use SIN verification units to validate that available online data linked to the SIN seem to be consistent with a legit SIN (that there are no apparent holes or gaps).


Now SINless Guy can get around some of this by using a Fake SIN... and have the ownership of the Commlink transferred from the store to the fake SIN
If this specific store have a policy that they don't serve SINless then SINless Guy can get around that by using a fake SIN.

But ownership of the commlink he buy will not be transferred to his SIN.

Think of having a SIN as more akin of having a green card.
Your green card is checked to make sure you are a legit citizen and not an illegal alien.
But your items are not connected to your green card.
Having a green card is not required to buy stuff with real cash from a vending machine.


Now he technically "owns" the commlink... for as long as that fake SIN stays active. (And once it's burned, then everything registered to it is also burned.. And he "owns" nothing, even though he is in "possession" of the commlink...)
Again SR4. This is not the case in SR5.

In SR5 fake licenses are connected to a specific fake SIN ("A fake license is connected to a fake SIN, and if one of them is exposed, the other becomes worthless", SR5 p. 419).

Also credit accounts are typically (but not always!) linked to a specific fake SIN ("Each account must be registered to a particular (usually fake) SIN, unless the account is handled by an anonymous underworld banking service (with its own risks and complications)", SR5 p. 442).

That's about it.


but yes, RAW that is what happens.
Please provide a citation from SR5 if you want to argue RAW.


How do you buy your GRID access? (they cost money remember? Except for the Public GRID... Eww! Loser). How do you buy your Music? Or your games? Or pay for your groceries? Or for that paywall to "Hot Troll chicks with Dwarf Girls on llamas"???? (Cause you GOT to see THAT! its a classic you know!)
You either pay for it via credit account (which is linked to a SIN, fake or otherwise) or, in the case of Shadowrunners and SINless, you pay for it via certified credstick (which belong to whoever is holding it, similar to cash or bitcoin back in 2022).


Bank accounts are stored in SINs
Certified credsticks are not.
« Last Edit: <05-26-22/0751:28> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #32 on: <05-26-22/0715:34> »
We are not at cross definations here... let me ask you this:

Yes, we absolutely are...

Quote
SINless guy walks into a store, and hands the clerk $2500 in certified Cred. The Clerk hands SINless Guy a Commlink....

  How does the SINless guy take LEGAL possession of his property??
Short answer is: "He can't".   YES he has the plastic goodie in his dirty SINless hand... but he doesn't actually own it. (from a LEGAL stand point). YES he paid cash money from his own savings, the clerk acknowledged and affirmed the transaction by handing the SINless Guy the Commlink... But he doesn't LEGALLY own it. (Not in the world of Shadowrun!)

The reason that he doesn't own it is.... Because he doesn't have a SIN! Full Stop. Everything you own is Registered to a SIN... Remember? I quoted it to you from 2 different sources (and while I don't have the 6e book, I doubt its changed).

As I have been saying, all your property, be that physical, digital, intangible, is tied back to a SIN. Heck, even the initials in your name, city of birth, date of Birth, GPA, credentials, schools attended are all Stored in your SIN, even your DNA... A SIN is the depository of your life.... The digital thumb print that you exist. 

Without a SIN, there is very little a person can do in the SR universe that interacts with "normal" society...


Now SINless Guy can get around some of this by using a Fake SIN... and have the ownership of the Commlink transferred from the store to the fake SIN, sure. Now he technically "owns" the commlink... for as long as that fake SIN stays active. (And once it's burned, then everything registered to it is also burned.. And he "owns" nothing, even though he is in "possession" of the commlink...)

AND YES, Anything that is registered to a fake SIN that gets burned gets legally frozen (And probably flagged as "stolen"). Be that apartments, guns, clothing, cars, GRID access, Commlinks, and any other property registered to it. So get out those "dice" and start transferring ownerships :P

<Not that many tables go THAT far into the whole system and issues with SINs, but yes, RAW that is what happens. Most tables just hand wave all this away when a SIN gets burned... or should I say IF a SIN gets burned... as this seems to happen very little in actual play.... >

Ok. I challenge you to walk up to some stranger, and unprompted, ask them "How many properties do you own?".  I can tell you before you do so that assuming English is their native tongue, they'll think you're asking how many parcels of real estate they own and will answer accordingly, rather than tallying how many physical and virtual possessions they have.

I agree with you that "property" can be a synonym for "possession", but I'm apparently a hard disagree with you in that it is not ALWAYS a synonym for "possession".  Just because you have to have a SIN to own "property" it does NOT mean by RAW, despite your claims to the contrary, that you have to have a SIN to own possessions.

Quote
And then there is the Matrix... which we have talked about and probably never going to see eye to eye on...

If the Matrix and SINs are not attached: How do you buy your GRID access? (they cost money remember? Except for the Public GRID... Eww! Loser). How do you buy your Music? Or your games? Or pay for your groceries? Or for that paywall to "Hot Troll chicks with Dwarf Girls on llamas"???? (Cause you GOT to see THAT! its a classic you know!) So clearly, there is some  overlap and cross connectivity between the Matrix and SINs... there has to be, or the Matrix is not a financial tool. (Because Bank accounts are stored in SINs remember?). How do you take ownership of your digital property if SINs and the Matrix Don't interact? And since they have to interact with your personna (because you're ON the Matrix!) to conduct the transaction....

Without SINs (real or fake) and therefore without bank accounts, you use certified credit.  Dude, this lore goes back to 1e.

The only possible way this is problematic is if you dogmatically insist that the word "property" can only mean exactly the same thing as possession, hence my saying that semantic disagreement seems to be the basis of your hangup, if not the entire cause of it.

Quote
Quote
By the way, I don't know if you realize it or not but "magical matrix fairy dust" actually isn't actually that far off from being how it truly does work, in-universe.  The corps actually don't understand how the matrix works... completely.  More on that downpost...
***
Big Brother doesn't use "whatever technobabble the matrix uses with personas" in SIN verification tech because they don't understand how the Matrix works.

Wait... WHAT?!?!?!
    "They" (being the Corps) build digital worlds in it, use it for data storage and transmission, conduct phone calls, digital meetings, build programs to run in, modify, edit, deny access to, encrypt and change it, transfer trillions of credits through it, HOURLY. Use it to send thoughts, smells, images, sounds, and tactile impulses directly to and interacting directly WITH THEIR BRAINS (and yours too if you hot-sim VR). 

But "They" don't know haw it works. Entirely...

Wow.... you would think, what with everything they can do, and DO do,  they would know how it works...

I mean really  ::)


Now, I don't expect there to be a giant blurb in the rulebook that goes into great detail about the minute details of how it works.... but "They don't know how it works, entirely" ???

Yea... ok.
This just doesn't work for some of us.

To be fair, you're not the only one who doesn't like that aspect of the setting lore, but it is what it is.  The powers that be essentially "found" the matrix, realized they could use it after Crash 2.0, and simply built upon it.  6e didn't establish this, and the 6e FAQ that prompted this whole discussion is just complying with what has already come before.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Reaver

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« Reply #33 on: <05-26-22/0846:36> »
This is what SR 5 has to say on SINs (pages 366, 367)

Quote
Identification
Your average Joe Wageslave in the Sixth World doesn’t
give a second thought to their identity in the system.
They get up in the morning, go to work, buy the groceries,
pay the bills, and go to bed in their living space.
They don’t think about who knows who they are, how
much their employer controls them, who those bill payments
are going to, how their commlink knows what
groceries they need this week, and who knows where
they live. Yes, Joe Wageslave is pretty oblivious to the
system that surrounds everything they do. But anyone
who chooses to live off the grid (like shadowrunners)
are all too aware of how the system of identity works.

System Identification Number (SIN)
The foundation of an identity in the Sixth World is the
System Identification Number (SIN). If someone wanted
to divide the world into two groups of people, it could
be done by saying there are those who have a SIN and
those who don’t. That is, if you even consider the SINless
to be “people,” which some don’t. Modern society
in 2075 produces a staggering amount of information
every second of every day: where you are, what you
buy, and what you do. With the system producing all of
these pieces of information, there needs to be an easy
way to store, track, and correlate it. All of that information
needs to be associated with a person somehow.

That’s where the SIN comes in. A SIN is issued to a person
a birth, and stays with them (baring exceptional circumstances)
for the rest of their life. A SIN identifies a
person in the global information system and is attached
to every piece of information associated with them in
the Matrix
. No aspect of modern or legal life can function
without a SIN. Those who don’t have one can’t get a
job, can’t buy food, can’t even walk down the street. To
the system, these people don’t exist.

The first part in bold says (again) "Modern society in 2075 produces a staggering amount of information every second of every day: where you are, what you buy, and what you do. With the system producing all of these pieces of information, there needs to be an easy way to store, track, and correlate it. All of that information needs to be associated with a person somehow."

So lets break down this even more to the new bold sections up top:
WHERE YOU ARE
 So it seems that the SIN is tracking your movements, probably through the system of SIN checkers and MAD sensors and other devices as you go about your day.... And lets hope that's where it ends and its not as bad as say... China with fun stats like "1 security camera for every 2 people in the country".... But it probably is closer to 10 sensors for every person in the city in SR...
WHAT YOU BUY
So its tracking everything you buy... Is this just tracking money in and out of your account? Or is it also recording things like your house, your car, your commlink, and everything else you "own"?? Sounds like a little of both - if not a LOT of both.
AND WHAT YOU DO
Is that your job? Or you spanking it in the public john? OR BOTH??! (ug, scary thought!) Is it tracking you and making a log... "Xenon spent 15 minutes reading a pedantic post by Reaver, then spent 20 minutes responding to said Post on the Shadowrun Forums." Or is it just concerned with the "Big Stuff" like "Xenon went to College for 4 years to study 'Proper post response, Then went to work for 'Responses R Us for 6 years..."? I hope its the later... but you never know (again, look to China)

Now lets look at the last bold section from the book quote that reads " A SIN identifies a person in the global information system and is attached to every piece of information associated with them in
the Matrix
"

So its attached to the Matrix... it tells us so, and it tracks everything associated to the individual on the Matrix...

Now what does 5e have to say about Owners? Page 236

Quote
Owners
Every device, persona, host, and file has an owner. This is
a special relationship that offers special privileges. Each
Matrix object can only have one owner, but you can own
as many Matrix objects as you like. The owner of a device,
host, persona, or file can always spot it in the Matrix.

For all intents and purposes, owning an icon is the
same as having four marks on it.
Owning a device and being its owner aren’t necessarily
the same thing, although they usually go together.
Ownership, at least in the Matrix, is something that
is registered with both the device (or other icons) and
the grids, so it’s a bit more involved than just putting a
“Property of [blank]” sticker on it. When a commlink is
at the store or in a warehouse, the commlink’s owner is
its manufacturer (although sometimes stores get ownership
of their goods before the buyer does). When you
buy that commlink, the store or manufacturer transfers
ownership to you.

Corporations and governments use this registration
system to keep track of their equipment. A security
guard’s weapon might be in her holster, but its owner is
the corp that employs her. This makes it relatively simple
to track down thieves, deserters, and looters—at least,
the ones who can’t hack what they steal.
The owner of an icon can intentionally transfer ownership
to another persona
in a process that takes about
a minute. If you steal a smartgun without transferring
the ownership, the gun will still behave as though its
owner is the guy you stole it from (which can lead to
complications if the owner comes looking for it). That
means changing ownership is a high-priority action any
time you steal a wireless-enabled item. You can illegally
change a device’s owner with a Hardware toolkit and
an Extended Hardware + Logic [Mental] (24, 1 hour)
test. A glitch on that test results in the item sending a
report to the authorities.
Changing ownership of a file is somewhat easier.
Your best bet is to use Edit File to copy it (the copy’s
owner is you) and then delete the original, again with
the Edit File action.
Note that you can’t change the owner of a persona
or a host.
So sorry, chummer—you can’t steal an entire
Stuffer Shack with a quick hack.

I have put some parts in Bold for us to look at....

Every device, persona, host, and file has an owner.
Ok, not to hard here. Everything is owned by someone. But what is tracking that ownership? Is it the Persona, which in itself it being owned? Or could this be tracked by the SIN? As per the
 " A SIN identifies a person in the global information system and is attached to every piece of information associated with them in the Matrix" line from under SINs? True, it doesn't come right out and say "this is tracked by your SIN", but it seems to go around in a circle here... Your Persona, which is owned by you and tracks its ownership by... your Persona!

So lets try substituting Persona with Car...  Your Car, which is owned by you and tracks its ownership by your car.  Does that make sense? Your Gun, which is owned by you, and tracks its ownership by your Gun!  Yea... There is a disconnect for me here... Is it the wording? What are they trying to tell us here about ownership...

The owner of a device, host, persona, or file can always spot it in the Matrix
Again, is this sloppy wording? Why is Persona used here? If I own the persona (and I become the persona from a device at log in. how can I see my persona when it "taken", especially since you can't seem to "steal" a Persona. Cover this more down below when I get to Personas). Every else here makes sense, but the throw in of Persona makes it wonky reading for what everyone is trying to say what a Persona can do...

 When you buy that commlink, the store or manufacturer transfers ownership to you.
Ok, but what are they transferring ownership TO??? Where is my ownership being stored? Is this just being attached to my Persona as is conjectured (and the GRIDs/Device), is this being attached to my SIN? (Again just from a single line in the SIN write up)... Its not clear...What is legally receiving that ownership and shows that I have responsibility for said item?

The owner of an icon can intentionally transfer ownership to another persona
Icon is being used here because every physical object that is on the matrix has a Icon, I get that, no issues there. And this statement seems to imply that the ownership is changed to the another persona, but what is tracking that? Is it just the persona? Or is it the persona, tied back to the SIN, and its the SIN that is tracking it? (more on this later down)

Note that you can’t change the owner of a persona or a host.
So Persona, can't have a change of ownership. Is this how people are trying to link a Persona to tracking ownership?

Persona as said by 5e page 235

Quote
Persona
Personas are the “people” of the Matrix. Some personas
are actually people, users and hackers who are connected
to and using the Matrix. When a person uses a device
to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed
by the persona’s icon
, so it’s basically gone from the
Matrix until the persona jacks out. You can only run one
persona at a time; switching requires you to reboot both
the device you’re currently on and the device to which
you want to shift your persona.
Some personas are agents, performing tasks on behalf
of their owners. Agents running alone on a device
replace the device icon the same way a living user does.
If you’re running an agent along with your persona, it
appears with its own separate persona, even though
you’re using the same device.
Each IC program has its own persona. IC programs
are not connected to devices because they’re only
found in hosts (thankfully).
Technomancers have a living persona not attached
to any device. A technomancer’s persona exists in the
Matrix as long as they’re awake, unless they deliberately
jack out. When a technomancer compiles a sprite, the
sprite has its own persona, too.

A couple of bold sections to look at here.

Personas are the “people” of the Matrix.
Right, in a nutshell every single Persona you see is a person/agent/IC working away. nothing big or unexpected here....

When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon
Right, so we know that everything in the physical word is an Icon in the matrix, and what this is telling us is that when you log onto a device, its Icon gets removed and replaced by your persona...

But nowhere in here does it say that a Persona tracks anything, or stores anything. All its saying is that YOU become the device and YOU are your Persona. Be that a commlink, a cyberdeck, a dataterm, once you log in, the Icon for the Commlink/cyberdeck/dataterm is gone, replaced by your Persona...


****

Like I have been saying, There is a disconnect here. Personas don't seem to really track anything, and are just "You" on the matrix. Anything that seems to have to do with ownership is still tied back to the SIN, but is being passed THOUGH the persona (YOU on the matrix)... And THIS Makes sense to me, Because the Persona isn't anything more then "YOU logged in on a device".

Now, lets move forward into the SR universe and look at some things...

Many items in Shadowrun are Restricted, (That "R' in the availability code) to LEGALLY get these items, one needs to get a License for the item. Your License isn't tracked by your Persona, its tracked by your SIN. If your SIN and the Matrix are not connected, how would an online vendor know I can LEGALLY buy their goods?

And before anyone barks:

Quote
Licenses
A basic SIN allows a person to function within the most
basic parameters of the law. If a person wants to operate
outside these very confining strictures, they need special
permission in the form of a license. What actions or
items require a license vary widely with the laws of the
country, but there are some common similarities shown
in the Common Licenses Table below. Acquiring a license
(legally) is, again, dependent on the laws of the
country. For the most part, acquiring a license involves
making an application, paying some sort of fee, a SIN
check, and possibly passing one or more certification,
testing, or training programs. The exact details of acquiring
a license are left up to the gamemaster, but government
bureaucracies are notoriously slow and frustrating


No mention of a Persona, but SIN gets brought up twice.... and I will remind you that LEGALLY speaking, many hacking tools/programs require a License to own.... (own...Own... Ownership....).

Now some are going to say "Well you just "show" your license. Sure, I get that... but again, its stored on your SIN...  So the Matrix and SINs must be connected, somehow (besides them saying so in the SIN section).

Quote
Quote from: Reaver on Today at 03:29:57

    SINless guy walks into a store, and hands the clerk $2500 in certified Cred. The Clerk hands SINless Guy a Commlink....

      How does the SINless guy take LEGAL possession of his property??

SR5 p. 237 Ownership
When a commlink is at the store or in a warehouse, the commlink’s owner is its manufacturer (although sometimes stores get ownership of their goods before the buyer does). When you buy that commlink, the store or manufacturer transfers ownership to you.

Quote from: Reaver on Today at 03:29:57

    he has the plastic goodie in his dirty SINless hand... but he doesn't actually own it. (from a LEGAL stand point). YES he paid cash money from his own savings, the clerk acknowledged and affirmed the transaction by handing the SINless Guy the Commlink... But he doesn't LEGALLY own it. (Not in the world of Shadowrun!)

For the first 60 seconds perhaps. Correct.
But once the clerk legally transferred ownership to him he will be the commlink's legit matrix owner.

Again, What is the clerk transferring ownership TO??? Is it a Persona- which from the above doesn't seem like it. OR, is it to a SIN (and LEGALLY Speaking, everyone should have)? And since our Guy is SINless.. technically Ownership can't be completed...
IF it IS to the Persona, HOW? The Persona doesn't seem to store anything from what was told to us, but seems to be a pass through/access point to the SIN of the individual.

 

 The rest, I covered above.



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« Reply #34 on: <05-26-22/0925:05> »
We are not at cross definations here... let me ask you this:

Yes, we absolutely are...

Quote
SINless guy walks into a store, and hands the clerk $2500 in certified Cred. The Clerk hands SINless Guy a Commlink....

  How does the SINless guy take LEGAL possession of his property??
Short answer is: "He can't".   YES he has the plastic goodie in his dirty SINless hand... but he doesn't actually own it. (from a LEGAL stand point). YES he paid cash money from his own savings, the clerk acknowledged and affirmed the transaction by handing the SINless Guy the Commlink... But he doesn't LEGALLY own it. (Not in the world of Shadowrun!)

The reason that he doesn't own it is.... Because he doesn't have a SIN! Full Stop. Everything you own is Registered to a SIN... Remember? I quoted it to you from 2 different sources (and while I don't have the 6e book, I doubt its changed).

As I have been saying, all your property, be that physical, digital, intangible, is tied back to a SIN. Heck, even the initials in your name, city of birth, date of Birth, GPA, credentials, schools attended are all Stored in your SIN, even your DNA... A SIN is the depository of your life.... The digital thumb print that you exist. 

Without a SIN, there is very little a person can do in the SR universe that interacts with "normal" society...


Now SINless Guy can get around some of this by using a Fake SIN... and have the ownership of the Commlink transferred from the store to the fake SIN, sure. Now he technically "owns" the commlink... for as long as that fake SIN stays active. (And once it's burned, then everything registered to it is also burned.. And he "owns" nothing, even though he is in "possession" of the commlink...)

AND YES, Anything that is registered to a fake SIN that gets burned gets legally frozen (And probably flagged as "stolen"). Be that apartments, guns, clothing, cars, GRID access, Commlinks, and any other property registered to it. So get out those "dice" and start transferring ownerships :P

<Not that many tables go THAT far into the whole system and issues with SINs, but yes, RAW that is what happens. Most tables just hand wave all this away when a SIN gets burned... or should I say IF a SIN gets burned... as this seems to happen very little in actual play.... >

Ok. I challenge you to walk up to some stranger, and unprompted, ask them "How many properties do you own?".  I can tell you before you do so that assuming English is their native tongue, they'll think you're asking how many parcels of real estate they own and will answer accordingly, rather than tallying how many physical and virtual possessions they have.

I agree with you that "property" can be a synonym for "possession", but I'm apparently a hard disagree with you in that it is not ALWAYS a synonym for "possession".  Just because you have to have a SIN to own "property" it does NOT mean by RAW, despite your claims to the contrary, that you have to have a SIN to own possessions.

Quote
And then there is the Matrix... which we have talked about and probably never going to see eye to eye on...

If the Matrix and SINs are not attached: How do you buy your GRID access? (they cost money remember? Except for the Public GRID... Eww! Loser). How do you buy your Music? Or your games? Or pay for your groceries? Or for that paywall to "Hot Troll chicks with Dwarf Girls on llamas"???? (Cause you GOT to see THAT! its a classic you know!) So clearly, there is some  overlap and cross connectivity between the Matrix and SINs... there has to be, or the Matrix is not a financial tool. (Because Bank accounts are stored in SINs remember?). How do you take ownership of your digital property if SINs and the Matrix Don't interact? And since they have to interact with your personna (because you're ON the Matrix!) to conduct the transaction....

Without SINs (real or fake) and therefore without bank accounts, you use certified credit.  Dude, this lore goes back to 1e.

The only possible way this is problematic is if you dogmatically insist that the word "property" can only mean exactly the same thing as possession, hence my saying that semantic disagreement seems to be the basis of your hangup, if not the entire cause of it.

Quote
Quote
By the way, I don't know if you realize it or not but "magical matrix fairy dust" actually isn't actually that far off from being how it truly does work, in-universe.  The corps actually don't understand how the matrix works... completely.  More on that downpost...
***
Big Brother doesn't use "whatever technobabble the matrix uses with personas" in SIN verification tech because they don't understand how the Matrix works.

Wait... WHAT?!?!?!
    "They" (being the Corps) build digital worlds in it, use it for data storage and transmission, conduct phone calls, digital meetings, build programs to run in, modify, edit, deny access to, encrypt and change it, transfer trillions of credits through it, HOURLY. Use it to send thoughts, smells, images, sounds, and tactile impulses directly to and interacting directly WITH THEIR BRAINS (and yours too if you hot-sim VR). 

But "They" don't know haw it works. Entirely...

Wow.... you would think, what with everything they can do, and DO do,  they would know how it works...

I mean really  ::)


Now, I don't expect there to be a giant blurb in the rulebook that goes into great detail about the minute details of how it works.... but "They don't know how it works, entirely" ???

Yea... ok.
This just doesn't work for some of us.

To be fair, you're not the only one who doesn't like that aspect of the setting lore, but it is what it is.  The powers that be essentially "found" the matrix, realized they could use it after Crash 2.0, and simply built upon it.  6e didn't establish this, and the 6e FAQ that prompted this whole discussion is just complying with what has already come before.



Definition of Property

Code: [Select]
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/property 
Quote
property noun
prop·​er·​ty | \ ˈprä-pər-tē
\
plural properties
Definition of property

1a : a quality or trait belonging and especially peculiar to an individual or thing
b : an effect that an object has on another object or on the senses
c : virtue sense 2
d : an attribute common to all members of a class
2a : something owned or possessed specifically : a piece of real estate
b : the exclusive right to possess, enjoy, and dispose of a thing : ownership
c : something to which a person or business has a legal title
d : one (such as a performer) who is under contract and whose work is especially valuable
e : a book or script purchased for publication or production
3 : an article or object used in a play or motion picture except painted scenery and costumes


definition of Possession
Code: [Select]
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/possession   
Quote
possession noun
pos·​ses·​sion | \ pə-ˈze-shən
also -ˈse- \
Definition of possession

1a : the act of having or taking into control
b : control or occupancy of property without regard to ownership
c : ownership
d : control of the ball or puck also : an instance of having such control (as in football) scored on their first two possessions
2 : something owned, occupied, or controlled : property
3a : domination by something (such as an evil spirit, a passion, or an idea)
b : a psychological state in which an individual's normal personality is replaced by another
c : self-possession


um...

Possession means control.... Can sometimes mean ownership.. and Sometimes not.  ("I have a license for the possession of Firearms")
Hence "Charged with POSSESSION of STOLEN PROPERTY"

You don't own it, but you are in control of it, Hence "Possession"

Property means ownership. Yes most commonly for land.... But any object (and sadly people) can be the Property of another. (Again. Ownership)
"That truck is my PROPERTY", "That song you are listening to is my PROPERTY" (says the Musician)


SO AGAIN:

The SINless Guy, has the Commlink in his possession. (He has control of it), But he doesn't LEGALLY own the commlink because he can't register its purchase, (with I am ASSUMING) a SIN.
The only thing that seems to track ownership. (as Personas don't seem to, at least I can't find mention of them anywhere)




Quote
Without SINs (real or fake) and therefore without bank accounts, you use certified credit.  Dude, this lore goes back to 1e.

The only possible way this is problematic is if you dogmatically insist that the word "property" can only mean exactly the same thing as possession, hence my saying that semantic disagreement seems to be the basis of your hangup, if not the entire cause of it.

Sure, Hence why SINless Guy paid in certified Cred. I'm not arguing that. And Even back in 3e SINs still tracked all these little details, but the wireless matrix has compounded this AND The data that is collected and harvested.  AND, like I said above, Property and Possession can/are two different things from a matter of perspective.

WHERE EXACTLY IS THIS BEING RECORDED?!?!?!? Please quote me the EXACT page, paragraph and context that says "Personas track ownership" Because I can't.

look, All this shit TODAY gets recorded, just not in a handy dandy spot like a SIN. Want to Drive (legally) you have to license, which recorded with the DMV, and can be checked by the cops at anytime.
You CAR is REGISTERED to you and tracked by your insurance company, which can again be checked by a cop any time they choose.
In many Countries you are require to REGISTER your firearms with the government, so the cops can pull you over 13 times in a week to "just check" (Not that I am bitter or anything)
If you buy a house, even if you pay CASH, you still have to register the land and buildings (trying to avoid the word "Property" for you :P ) which can be checked by anyone with a simple Land titles search.

BUT, instead of being in 30 different departments and branches spread across all levels of Government, a SIN puts it all in one handy, dandy place. Now granted, I can't quote you an exact page number and a direct quote for SINs either, I posted everything I can find in the main books (not checked the companion books) on SINs and how they work...

And yes, I have had to backtrack on info (even going back to 2e!) for some of this... But I have posted everything I have for 5e and the lore for SINs....


The Wireless Matrix, and Personas we just have much less to work with, and nothing that spells out that Personas have taken over for SIN in the "cataloging of life" department...
Heck we don't really have evidence of Personas storing ANYTHING....





AND NOTE: I am NOT talking about Runners (they have their own tricks), just average citizens...



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Xenon

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« Reply #35 on: <05-26-22/1045:45> »
So its tracking everything you buy
In 2022 people typically paid for stuff using their VISA card. Which behind the scenes was somehow connected to their social security number (or equivalent). In the background this is creating an electronic data trail.

Some people opt to pay for stuff using real cash. This behavior typically leave a much smaller digital footprint.

In SR people would normally buy their stuff in legit stores that uses SIN verification units to validate that all customers are legit citizens and normal people typically also use their bank account that is connected to their legit SIN. In the background this is creating an electronic data trail much like when people paid with their VISA back in 2022.

SINless people typically buy their stuffs at stores that doesn't run SIN verification units and they typically pay with certified credsticks (or trade goods, favors or services). This behavior leave a much smaller digital footprint.


This is not the same thing as all items you buy are linked to your SIN. That if you leave your hat at a crime scene it can be linked back to you and the SIN you used when you bought the specific hat. That if your SIN is burned you are no longer considered to be the legit owner of your hat (insert any other possession instead of hat).


A SIN identifies a person in the global information system and is attached to every piece of information associated with them in
the Matrix
I read this as SIN is the primary key that keep the information together in all them databases. In 2022 this was typically a social security number or personal number or persona number of sorts (I guess this depend a bit on which country you live in).


what is tracking that ownership?
According to the FAQ: Actual ownership of a device is a registration maintained in multiple and redundant databases across the Matrix, much like SIN registries. It is no simple feat to illegally transfer ownership without the true owner’s consent.


Why is Persona used here?
Because agents have personas of their own. Sprites as well.


what are they transferring ownership TO
To YOU.

Which in the context of matrix ownership mean your matrix identity that is representing YOU within the matrix. Your Matrix Persona.

SR5 p. 238 Ownership
The owner of an icon can intentionally transfer ownership to another persona


Where is my ownership being stored?
"in multiple and redundant databases across the Matrix"


is this being attached to my SIN?
No, ownership (in 5th edition) does not seem to be linked to your SIN (fake or otherwise).


Icon is being used here because every physical object that is on the matrix has a Icon, I get that
Also every virtual object (typically represented by File Icons) that is on the matrix also has an Icon, not just physical devices (represented by Device Icons).


Right, in a nutshell every single Persona you see is a person/agent/IC working away. nothing big or unexpected here
Agreed.

It also seem as if it is Personas (and not Devices) that execute Matrix Actions.


But nowhere in here does it say that a Persona tracks anything, or stores anything. All its saying is that YOU become the device and YOU are your Persona
Agreed.


Anything that seems to have to do with ownership is still tied back to the SIN
No, ownership is linked to YOU.

Whenever you are accessing the matrix it seem as if YOU are represented by your Matrix Persona. I like to think that the legit matrix owner of your devices are your Matrix Persona. And that is why a hacker that have a Mark on your Matrix Persona can Spoof a Command to any devices you are the legit matrix owner of, impersonating an instruction as if it came from its legit owner.

YOU are also the legit matrix owner of a device no matter which SIN you are currently broadcasting. And no matter if you are not broadcasting a SIN at all. Or if you are SINless.

I do not agree that ownership is tied back to the SIN (perhaps it was in SR4, but this is no longer the case in SR5).


the Persona isn't anything more then "YOU logged in on a device".
YOU are represented by your Matrix Persona as long as you are accessing the matrix. We agree here.

But since YOU are considered to be the legit matrix owner of your devices (not your SIN) then it seems (at least to my reading) that as long as YOU are accessing the matrix then, by extension, your Matrix Persona (the virtual matrix representation of YOU) is to be considered the legit matrix owner of your devices (or rather your virtual device icons).


Your License isn't tracked by your Persona, its tracked by your SIN
Agreed.


If your SIN and the Matrix are not connected, how would an online vendor know I can LEGALLY buy their goods?
Most shadowrunners probably buy their guns on the black market, even if they happen to have a fake SIN with a fake license to possess firearms. Fake license to possess firearms is probably more relevant when you get pulled over by Lone Star.

Whenever you are accessing the matrix you are (or technically your Matrix Persona is) typically broadcasting the SIN (including it's licenses that are connected to it) that belong to YOU.

If you are in possession of a firearm as a SINless (or if you are broadcasting another fake SIN, a fake SIN that does not have a fake license to possess firearms connected to it) when Lone Star find a firearm on your body then you will be considered breaking the law ("possession of firearm without proper license").


So the Matrix and SINs must be connected, somehow
Sure. I mean, you (or technically your matrix persona) broadcast your SIN over the Matrix. Whenever you buy things via a credit account that is connected to your SIN you leave a data trail within the matrix. Your SIN is being logged whenever a SIN verification unit is trying to validate if you are a legit citizen or not.

But this is not the same thing as matrix ownership of a device is being connected by a specific SIN. Matrix ownership of a device is connected to YOU. Since YOU are considered the legit matrix owner of your car YOU can remote control it (without hacking it). If you choose to broadcast another of your fake SINs YOU will still be considered its legal matrix owner and YOU can still remote control it. The only requirement here is that YOU are accessing to the matrix (using your Matrix Persona).

Matrix ownership of devices you own are all related to your Matrix Persona (the matrix representation of YOU).

It is not related to if you have a SIN or not or if you are currently broadcasting a fake SIN or which fake SIN you are currently broadcasting or if you bought the item with a credit account or via a credstick or if it was given to you as a gift.
« Last Edit: <05-26-22/1125:59> by Xenon »

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« Reply #36 on: <05-26-22/1057:58> »
Property
Property and SIN are not related in SR5+
Perhaps it was at some point, but it is not anymore.

Please quote me the EXACT page, paragraph and context that says "Personas track ownership" Because I can't.
SR5 p. 238 Ownership
The owner of an icon can intentionally transfer ownership to another persona

FastJack

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« Reply #37 on: <05-26-22/1103:40> »
Just caught this bit while looking up Certified Credsticks:

Quote from: Sixth World, Core Rulebook, p. 272
A credit account is a Matrix bank account accessible via your commlink as long as you are on a grid. Transactions require passcode or biometric verification to be authorized, hence the reason for a biometric reader on your commlink. The digital transactions from these accounts leave a trail that, while it can be hidden or concealed, is entirely too traceable for serious criminal activities. Each account must be registered to a particular (usually fake) SIN, unless the account is handled by an anonymous underworld banking service (with its own risks and complications). The cost of banking services is included in your lifestyle costs if you’ve got a Low Lifestyle or better—otherwise you’ll need to keep all your money on credsticks. If a fake SIN attached to an account is burned, the money is lost.

From that, it says to me that if you're purchasing anything and NOT using a certified credstick, the commlink attached to your account has to have biometric reader so it can identify you and allow access to your account. I'd GM that to mean that, to access your persona is akin to accessing your SIN/Accounts, and it identifies you with a bio-reader. If you don't use a bio-reader to identify yourself, it's a generic persona/icon that has all the limited abilities and access of a public PC in the library.

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« Reply #38 on: <05-26-22/1110:35> »
Oh, and:

Quote from: Sixth World, Core Rulebook, p. 269
Biometric reader
This handheld device can be used for fingerprints, retina scans, voice patterns, and tongue prints. You can use it to lock your electronics so only you (or one of your body parts) can unlock it.

If it ain't locked by the bio-meter, whoever uses the commlink will appear to be the owner of the commlink..

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #39 on: <05-26-22/1121:05> »
Reaver, I do trust that you're not being deliberately obstinate, and am continuing to engage you out of that belief.  If you're trolling me, congrats.

On "property": there's "real property", "private property", "personal property", "government property", "intellectual property" and many more kinds of properties.  You're fixating on "property" never meaning anything other than "personal property". 

You know.  I know. Even Xenon is telling you that SINs are simply not tied to ownership in Shadowrun.  It's impossible to explain to you WHY this is not a conundrum when you refuse to accept that there's any difference between, for example, real property and personal property.  And for that reason, that's the end of my attempts to do so.

Let me try to TL;DR the entire picture for someone stumbling across the thread at this point, without having read everything up to here:

The venn diagram of SINs, Personas, and Matrix Ownership are three circles that don't overlap each other. 

matrix ownership doesn't look at SINs or the persona. SINless, matrix luddites can own gear.
---matrix ownership can be transferred voluntarily, or hacked.
personas are not tied to SINs.
---personas can never be traded, willingly or otherwise
SINs are not tied to personas, and are irrelevant when it comes to matrix ownership.
---SINs can be "hacked", of sorts, but only by NPCs and it takes years to do so.

The reason these three "identities" can have different rules is because they're three distinct concepts.  You're not struggling with why auras aren't incorporated into SINs, are you? Or why you can't fool a bonded focus into thinking you're the one who bonded with it?  A persona is actually very close to being your "aura", just for the matrix instead of astral space.
« Last Edit: <05-26-22/1131:16> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

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« Reply #40 on: <05-26-22/1128:15> »
Just caught this bit while looking up Certified Credsticks:

Quote from: Sixth World, Core Rulebook, p. 272
A credit account is a Matrix bank account accessible via your commlink as long as you are on a grid. Transactions require passcode or biometric verification to be authorized, hence the reason for a biometric reader on your commlink. The digital transactions from these accounts leave a trail that, while it can be hidden or concealed, is entirely too traceable for serious criminal activities. Each account must be registered to a particular (usually fake) SIN, unless the account is handled by an anonymous underworld banking service (with its own risks and complications). The cost of banking services is included in your lifestyle costs if you’ve got a Low Lifestyle or better—otherwise you’ll need to keep all your money on credsticks. If a fake SIN attached to an account is burned, the money is lost.

From that, it says to me that if you're purchasing anything and NOT using a certified credstick, the commlink attached to your account has to have biometric reader so it can identify you and allow access to your account. I'd GM that to mean that, to access your persona is akin to accessing your SIN/Accounts, and it identifies you with a bio-reader. If you don't use a bio-reader to identify yourself, it's a generic persona/icon that has all the limited abilities and access of a public PC in the library.

That's more of a feature of the SIN verification mechanics, rather than being indicative of SINs and personas having any link.

Also note that fake SINs don't use YOUR biometrics, so using a fake SIN with a credit account is still problematic... hence the essentially ubiquitous use of certified credit for people like shadowrunners.

Quote from: Fake SINs, SR5, pg. 364
Biometric data associated with
a high-Rating SIN will be from a real person with the
same sex and nationality as the purchaser with (if the
extra fee is paid) matching organic samples available
(blood, skin cells, hair—just don’t ask where they came
from).

RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #41 on: <05-26-22/1144:11> »
matrix luddites can own gear.
That is an interesting question actually :)

Can you really be considered a matrix owner of a wireless enabled device  if you have zero matrix presence. If you never access the matrix and you don't have a matrix persona then to whom should the previous matrix owner legally transfer the matrix ownership to...?

If you are not on the matrix at all then you also can't execute matrix actions (they only seem to exists within the matrix). You don't have any MARKs. You can't seem to remote control devices over the matrix.

Of course you can still be in possession of things (physically), but... yeah.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #42 on: <05-26-22/1209:22> »
matrix luddites can own gear.
That is an interesting question actually :)

Can you really be considered a matrix owner of a wireless enabled device  if you have zero matrix presence. If you never access the matrix and you don't have a matrix persona then to whom should the previous matrix owner legally transfer the matrix ownership to...?

If you are not on the matrix at all then you also can't execute matrix actions (they only seem to exists within the matrix). You don't have any MARKs. You can't seem to remote control devices over the matrix.

Of course you can still be in possession of things (physically), but... yeah.

They won't gain any matrix functionality, such as wireless bonuses or inclusion in a PAN, if they are luddites who never even use AR... but they're still the matrix owners of the device.  Someone can't snatch their gear and just add it to their own PAN while the luddite "owns" it, even if they're not "using" it, matrix-wise.

Edit: Actually... the question of whether a PAN can exist w/o a Persona is a good one.  I'm not confident the answer is as clear cut as I initially made it sound there.
« Last Edit: <05-26-22/1309:58> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

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« Reply #43 on: <05-26-22/1253:13> »
Reaver, I do trust that you're not being deliberately obstinate, and am continuing to engage you out of that belief.  If you're trolling me, congrats.

On "property": there's "real property", "private property", "personal property", "government property", "intellectual property" and many more kinds of properties.  You're fixating on "property" never meaning anything other than "personal property". 


Dude, Stop. JUST STOP. LISTEN TO YOURSELF!

Real, private, personal, governmental... yadda yadda... at the CORE of all those things is OWNERSHIP! Not direct physical control (that would be "possession"). OWNERSHIP! Anything BEFORE the word "property" Is just a descriptor. It DOES NOT change the meaning of the word PROPERTY.

AGAIN: the defination of PROPERTY was posted for you above!
(I'll post it again)

Quote
property noun
prop·​er·​ty | \ ˈprä-pər-tē
\
plural properties
Definition of property

1a : a quality or trait belonging and especially peculiar to an individual or thing
b : an effect that an object has on another object or on the senses
c : virtue sense 2
d : an attribute common to all members of a class
2a : something owned or possessed specifically : a piece of real estate
b : the exclusive right to possess, enjoy, and dispose of a thing : ownership
c : something to which a person or business has a legal title
d : one (such as a performer) who is under contract and whose work is especially valuable
e : a book or script purchased for publication or production
3 : an article or object used in a play or motion picture except painted scenery and costumes

I have no idea what you mean by "real Property" Useless you mean a physical object, like a rock, or a shovel.. In which case, YES, you can have OWNERSHIP over those items. In fact, you can have OWNERSHIP of those items, and not have them in your Possession. (as Possession is a state of Control and to a lesser extent, ownership).

Private Property is a term that is used to denote SINGULAR OWNERSHIP of an person, place, or thing. Most often applied to (but NOT ALWAYS) to land, or buildings.

Personal Property is again a term that is used to denote SINGULAR OWNERSHIP of a person, place or thing. Most often applied to objects. AKA your car is your PERSONAL PROPERTY.

Governmental Property is AGAIN, a term that is used, this time to denote OWNERSHIP BY THE GOVERNMENT, of a person place or thing. Usually applied to infrastructure, land, or intellectual

I could go on... BUT, I think you are getting the point.... PROPERTY denotes OWNERSHIP.

THIS IS NOT, NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN THE POINT. DROP IT.


What IS the point, is how that OWNERSHIP is tracked. And it MUST be tracked! And it MUST be verifiable. If it is not, then the entire digtal world of the matrix breaks apart in a right old fashion, right quick.
The majority of people in SR do their shopping online. (you can see that in just about every write up about the matrix, or buying stuff.) Heck, even today, online shopping is outpacing store shopping.

BUT, from what you are saying, this is impossible! As there is no "Tracking" in the matrix... No logging... nothing to follow, nothing to confirm, nothing to verify back to.

So HOW are people buying shit if you can't link back to a Bank account (SIN related Remember?), or getting it delivered to them? (where they live), How does The Company KNOW that Mr. DOE got that brand new Assault Rifle, that he is allowed to own it, and that it didn't go to MR. Poe???

How does one do simple everyday things like Pay their electricity Bill? Or buy car insurance for their car, or pay their mortgage or their rent???!??!?!
ALL this shit HAS TO BE TRACKED!!!!!

And if its NOT tracked, how do they PROVE they paid that mortgage? Or that insurance bill? Or purchased that food??


But you're saying "nope! All good!"




You know.  I know. Even Xenon is telling you that SINs are simply not tied to ownership in Shadowrun.  It's impossible to explain to you WHY this is not a conundrum when you refuse to accept that there's any difference between, for example, real property and personal property.  And for that reason, that's the end of my attempts to do so.

SOMETHING has to be, and you are saying that its Personas. OK FINE.

How does the cop that pulls you over for Speeding in downtown core, verify:
1: that you are allowed to drive?
2: that you actually own (OWNERSHIP!!!! in this case, personal Property!) the car?
3: that you car (if you own it) is insured?

Your Answer seems to be "You can't"... OR "My Persona"...

If its "You can't", can NOT see the problem????
SERIOUSLY?!?!! You are going to sit there, and say "nope, no problem here!" Come on Man! This is the Future! A Dystopian Future! The Cops, and Government, and ESPECIALLY the Corps are not going to sit back and say "Well, I guess we just won't track who owns what, or who paid for it, or is going to pay for it. Nope, don't need that hassle at all!" We track all this shit now! And much more besides.

If its "My Persona" Isn't that a Circular logic loop? To check to see if you own something, I am going to ask YOUR Persona, and then rely on YOUR Persona for verification.
"Please Verify that YOU did not steal this car"
 "....I didn't steal this car"
"OK! Good enough for me!"

Come on man! This is about tracking things! Proving that you actually HAVE stuff! That you have a RIGHT to a place, thing, object, or item!

It HAS to be tracked, AND Verified somehow! If not, the whole world falls apart real fast....



Now I get the Meta for why its set up the way it is.. But again, JUST DO NOT WORK from a functioning society viewpoint. No one would use the Matrix for financial reason if NOTHING is tracked, backtracked, verified and certified.

Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #44 on: <05-26-22/1302:19> »
Quote

You know.  I know. Even Xenon is telling you that SINs are simply not tied to ownership in Shadowrun.  It's impossible to explain to you WHY this is not a conundrum when you refuse to accept that there's any difference between, for example, real property and personal property.  And for that reason, that's the end of my attempts to do so.

SOMETHING has to be, and you are saying that its Personas. OK FINE.

No.  That's NOT what I'm saying.

SINs are not tied to the matrix recognizing ownership of a device.

Personas are not tied to the matrix recognizing ownership of a device.

Matrix ownership is its own distinct concept independent of SINs and Personas.

Quote
How does the cop that pulls you over for Speeding in downtown core, verify:
1: that you are allowed to drive?

They submit your driver's license thru the SIN verification system (same thing checks licenses)

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2: that you actually own (OWNERSHIP!!!! in this case, personal Property!) the car?

They submit your driver's license thru the SIN verification system (same thing checks licenses)
Quote
3: that you car (if you own it) is insured?

Actually insurance is not a thing, strictly speaking, as a rules mechanic.  But if it were it'd be some combination of lifestyle to cover the cost, and having a convincing license as a means by which to verify your insurance is current.
« Last Edit: <05-26-22/1306:25> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.