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Running Silent

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RickDeckard

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« on: <07-30-21/0656:36> »
If you're a Street Sam and would like to not immediately get all your 'ware fried by a Spider, can you just set it to running silent the same way a Decker can run silent? Then at least they'd have to spot it before they can fry it. If yes, then I don't see any reason you wouldn't do that as standard since you're not messing around in the Matrix and thus doesn't suffer any penalties from running silent. Maybe silent running is actually standard setting for cyberware....

Alrician

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« Reply #1 on: <07-30-21/0707:13> »
Yes, you can. I even do it that way, or I have agreed with my players that they will always be considered silent until they determine something else.

RickDeckard

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« Reply #2 on: <07-30-21/0725:44> »
And of course still receive all wireless bonuses.

Sir Ludwig

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« Reply #3 on: <07-30-21/1459:46> »
RAW: p178 Running Silent....A user can run silent by simply switching modes on their commlink or deck.  Most ware isn't a commlink or deck....

So, I don't think you can directly run your ware silent.

I believe if you connect your ware/gear to your PAN, then you could. 

However, If you do run silent you can be spotted with an opposed Matrix Perception test.  If your not a Matrix type, someone that is (Spider, Hacker, whomever) will be able to see you fairly easy.  They will wonder why someone is running silent and probably start poking around.  That is why if your going to run wireless you should have your own Matrix type person protecting you and your gear behind their PAN.

I'm not the local Matrix subject expert, so if Banshee or SSDR post something different, I would listen to them.

Most of my players run with their gear off. 
Edit:  If being stealthy and somewhere they shouldn't be.  If walking around to get a burger and have proper (fake/real) paperwork.  Then they are broadcasting like everyone else. 

Regards,
SL
« Last Edit: <07-30-21/2326:48> by Sir Ludwig »
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <07-30-21/1739:30> »
From my perspective, I'd consider two potential rules hangups with running gear silent in 5e, as well as a potential in-universe factor that is equally applicible in 5e/6e.

1) Does the device need a Sleaze attribute to run silent?
2) Do you suffer the -2 dice for employing that device while it's running silent?

In the case of 1... the short answer I unavoidably come to is "No".  However much it might seem reasonable from a fluff/lore point of view, that's ALL there is to that argument. Against it lies a) the rules never say that restriction b) commlinks don't have any more Sleaze than cyberware, and commlinks explicitly can run silent and c) that's not the writer's intent anyway. 

In the case of 2... I feel the short answer is also "No", but it's slightly less clear cut. Per pg. 235 SR5 you suffer -2 dice for any "matrix actions" you perform with the device, but that in turn becomes a question of whether an action benefitting from a wireless bonus is also a matrix action.  That's a whole lot of rabbit hole to go down into, and to be honest you don't even need to wrangle that answer definitively because there's another reason why #2 should be "No" besides however that comes out: it's simply not very fun.  MAYBE there's a decently, non-hostile-to-the-player rationale in saying if you run your smartgun wireless on but running silent, you get +2 dice AND -2 dice, and it's still a net gain because of the other niche benefits a smartgun gets.  But apply that same logic to virtually any other device with a wireless bonus, especially cyberware, and you're basically punishing players for using their gear.  It's not fun.  That's a pretty strong point all on its own.

So, in summation: rules-wise, yes I feel you should both be able to run your gear and 'ware silent, and do so without incurring the -2 dice penalty.


However, I mentioned a third, in-universe downside.  I think that remains quite valid: you LOOK SUSPICIOUS when you run your drek silent or wireless-off.  It's the equivalent of running around in all-black tactical gear. I mean, sure it's advantageous... but when you're trying to blend in, running silent/off is doing the opposite. "Hey, look at the one loser here who doesn't have any AROs!  I bet that's because they can't even get their Persona into P2.0!"  Furthermore, having weapons running silent (or off) reasonably counts as attempting to conceal them.  Some places may very well allow open carry but not concealed.  Being caught attempting to conceal weapons in those place will of course have consequences.  Whether the concealment was physical or matrix in nature!


« Last Edit: <07-30-21/1743:04> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: <07-31-21/0337:44> »
If you set your commlink, cyberdeck, rcc or living persona to running silent in 6th edition then it seem as if your entire PAN (including all it's networked and slaved devices) will run silent (an all or nothing thing).

And that (unlike previous edition) in this edition the decker is assumed to always run silent while hacking (it seem as if in this edition it is immediately obvious that a hacker is intruding, even if he or she happen to have admin access on the network he or she will never be considered a 'legit' user).

In 6th edition it seem as if networks are typically not running silent. Reason to run silent might be because your are sneaking into a facility (or a host). But if you are just walking around down town (or using open social infiltration) you would typically not run silent (as running silent -and not broadcasting your fake SIN- would probably attract more attention to you in many parts of the town)

And it also seem as when you take a matrix perception test in this edition you don't take one test per silent running device (as you might have done it in previous edition) instead it seem as if you will spot entire networks (including all its networked and slaved devices) all at once.

And it also seem as if you resolve matrix perception in this edition just a regular perception (that you take one test and then compare hits to see how much you will discover - you might for example spot zero, one or several ninjas hiding in the shadows with a single test - or in the case of matrix perception, zero, one or several silent running networks).
« Last Edit: <07-31-21/0346:45> by Xenon »

RickDeckard

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« Reply #6 on: <07-31-21/1401:01> »
From my perspective, I'd consider two potential rules hangups with running gear silent in 5e, as well as a potential in-universe factor that is equally applicible in 5e/6e.

1) Does the device need a Sleaze attribute to run silent?
2) Do you suffer the -2 dice for employing that device while it's running silent?

In the case of 1... the short answer I unavoidably come to is "No".  However much it might seem reasonable from a fluff/lore point of view, that's ALL there is to that argument. Against it lies a) the rules never say that restriction b) commlinks don't have any more Sleaze than cyberware, and commlinks explicitly can run silent and c) that's not the writer's intent anyway. 

In the case of 2... I feel the short answer is also "No", but it's slightly less clear cut. Per pg. 235 SR5 you suffer -2 dice for any "matrix actions" you perform with the device, but that in turn becomes a question of whether an action benefitting from a wireless bonus is also a matrix action.  That's a whole lot of rabbit hole to go down into, and to be honest you don't even need to wrangle that answer definitively because there's another reason why #2 should be "No" besides however that comes out: it's simply not very fun.  MAYBE there's a decently, non-hostile-to-the-player rationale in saying if you run your smartgun wireless on but running silent, you get +2 dice AND -2 dice, and it's still a net gain because of the other niche benefits a smartgun gets.  But apply that same logic to virtually any other device with a wireless bonus, especially cyberware, and you're basically punishing players for using their gear.  It's not fun.  That's a pretty strong point all on its own.

So, in summation: rules-wise, yes I feel you should both be able to run your gear and 'ware silent, and do so without incurring the -2 dice penalty.


However, I mentioned a third, in-universe downside.  I think that remains quite valid: you LOOK SUSPICIOUS when you run your drek silent or wireless-off.  It's the equivalent of running around in all-black tactical gear. I mean, sure it's advantageous... but when you're trying to blend in, running silent/off is doing the opposite. "Hey, look at the one loser here who doesn't have any AROs!  I bet that's because they can't even get their Persona into P2.0!"  Furthermore, having weapons running silent (or off) reasonably counts as attempting to conceal them.  Some places may very well allow open carry but not concealed.  Being caught attempting to conceal weapons in those place will of course have consequences.  Whether the concealment was physical or matrix in nature!

I should have clarified that I'm talking about a on-a-run situation. But let's look at both on-the-job and everyday life use cases.

On a run I would want to run all my cyberware and weapons, everything, silent so I don't automatically show up on the security spiders screen. As I understand the Matrix, you have to suspect that someone is running silent in order to look for them. I guess that makes a security spiders job rolling perception rolls all night long, but it's still better to make him do that than just walk in with AROs blazing, so to speak. Let him work for it, and maybe you can get to him before he sees you. Especially if you're slaved to the Decker's PAN, which makes it so much harder for the Spider to detect you. If a security Spider's AR overlay suddenly flashes with 4 ARES Alphas and some wired reflexes he'd hit the panic button before even investigating further.

On an average rainy day in downtown Seattle I would almost be inclined to think that if not law, then it's common courtesy to slave all your devices to your comm so that only your PAN shows up on people's AR overlay. Otherwise it would be crazy spam if you can see Suzy Doe's 32 device AROs. If everything is slaved to your PAN, then switching to silent running is the flick of a button. I don't see that as suspicious, some people may prefer to turn off their comm every now and then. And some people may want to run their organ or limb replacements silent because they're subconscious about revealing that kind of stuff on the first date. Some zones do require you to broadcast your SIN, though, but not all (at least in my SR world).

So if a device doesn't require A and S ratings to run silent, then any manufacturer would make them able to do so.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #7 on: <07-31-21/1518:18> »
Yeah just to reiterate lest there be any confusion, I agree that you should be able to run devices silent in 5e (in 6e, it's moot.. your whole PAN is silent or not, all at the same time)

When it comes to social situations- yes I agree that at least 9 times out of 10 it won't matter if you run silent.  The notable exception is your security interactions.  The bouncer at the front door of the nightclub, the guard at gate of a walled community, the enforcers patting you down before letting you talk to the boss... presumably they're at least using AR mode and if they don't see the kinds of AROs they'd expect to see, that absense is inherently suspicious.  Of course in 5e's level of granularity it's a bit easier to deal with than in 6e: in 5e you just leave all your innocuous stuff like your socks, your pants, your shoes, etc NOT running silent and don't give them an obvious matrix void when they look at you.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #8 on: <07-31-21/1745:18> »
RickDeckard,
Are you talking about SR5 or SR6?


On a run I would want to run all my cyberware and weapons, everything, silent so I don't automatically show up on the ...
On a run you would run everything in silent mode.
Or, if you are really paranoid, run everything wireless disabled.


you have to suspect that someone is running silent in order to look for them.
In SR5, silent running icons are not really invisible.
If you set your filters to only silent running icons in your vicinity then they will appear as obvious as a neon sign or a running crowd for regular perception. It only take one hit on an unopposed matrix perception test to get 'aware' of all of them at once (but then you have to actually 'spot' it before you get to interact with the icon, and since you in this specific scenario does not know what you are looking for - other than random silent running icons in your vicinity - you also have to spot them, one by one... at random).


I guess that makes a security spiders job rolling perception rolls all night long ...
Both Security Riggers and Security Deckers are typically found inside a host. Not out on the grid. In SR5 they are typically also not physically at the site. They can be anywhere in the world (work from anywhere). As long as they are inside the host they will be considered directly connected to the host itself and all devices that are slaved to the host. No matter physical distance.

When they take a matrix perception test it is to find enemy hackers that invaded their host. They can't really take a matrix perception test to notice shadowrunners that are infiltrating the physical site. Unless they exit the host. And are actually physically at the site. Physically close to the infiltrators.

Also.... While it is illegal for hackers to place their mark on the host, just having a mark on the host or entering the host is not. In many cases hackers in this edition are not running silent (up until the point where they are about to use an attack action - as that would be immediately obvious and if not running silent would mean they would be automatically spotted).




...to slave all your devices to your comm so that only your PAN shows up on people's AR overlay.
It is the observers that typically group icons that a person carry on their body into a single PAN icon. But observers can also choose to spot every single music album icon you have on your icon (unless they are protected) if they wish. Its up to the observer to filter or not filter, not the target....



some people may prefer to turn off their comm every now and then.
While people turned off their smart phones now and then back in 2021 it is doubtful that people choose to not be connected to the matrix. The *vast* majority (even SINLess) will be connected to the matrix at all times.

Except, perhaps, if they are on a black op.


And some people may want to run their organ or limb replacements silent because they're subconscious about revealing that kind of stuff on the first date.
Your augmentations are connected to you via your nervous system (not to be confused with DNI). In SR5 you would typically run all your augmentations wireless off. Unless they have a wireless bonus you needed (and you don't have an internal router).



Some zones do require you to broadcast your SIN, though, but not all (at least in my SR world).
Right.... so in most places most people would be connected to the matrix (have a commlink that is not wireless disabled) and unless they are trying to hide or infiltrate they would also not run their commlink in silent mode (you are not broadcasting your SIN if you are in silent mode). But in SR5 they might still run several devices in silent mode (even while not on a job).

RickDeckard

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« Reply #9 on: <07-31-21/1754:15> »
RickDeckard,
Are you talking about SR5 or SR6?

...to slave all your devices to your comm so that only your PAN shows up on people's AR overlay.
It is the observers that typically group icons that a person carry on their body into a single PAN icon. But observers can also choose to spot every single music album icon you have on your icon (unless they are protected) if they wish. Its up to the observer to filter or not filter, not the target....

5e. Don't care about 6.

Curious where you got that last piece from? RAW and my own interpretations state that you can manage your PAN however you want. If you want to look at what's behind someones's PAN you gotta do some hacking.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #10 on: <07-31-21/2021:18> »
The example on pg. 224 of SR5 talks about a hacker going through a waitresses' music files on her commlink, which was possible because she didn't bother to protect them.  I suspect Xenon's example was too similar to not be an oblique reference to this example.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

RickDeckard

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« Reply #11 on: <08-01-21/0252:20> »
The example on pg. 224 of SR5 talks about a hacker going through a waitresses' music files on her commlink, which was possible because she didn't bother to protect them.  I suspect Xenon's example was too similar to not be an oblique reference to this example.

I was thinking of that example too, but in that case I take the waitress' carelessness to mean she hasn't slaved it all to he comm and protected it sufficiently. Also, he's a hacker, and later in the example he states that GOD is alread watching and he wasted precious time going through that album, indicating that he has already done something illegal. So he hacked into her comm to get to that music, it's not just out there for everyone to see. So I'll maintain that you only see people's comm if they slaved everything to it, and it's the user's choice what they broadcast as AROs.

Xenon

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« Reply #12 on: <08-01-21/1654:20> »
The BK example is actually riddled with mistakes so it is not a very good example to use to be honest, but it works for the question you have in this topic. Ill go through it step by step.


If you want to look at what's behind someones's PAN you gotta do some hacking.
Unlike other editions, devices in 5th edition are accessed directly. There is no Router or Server or Master Device you have to first hack in order to then hack devices that are part of a PAN. They all show up as icons of their own. And you spot them individually. And you hack them individually. Being part of a PAN or not change nothing (except that it might get to defend with a higher firewall rating).

Any filtering is done on the observer side. You (or rather your commlink) filter stuff for you all the time. If you choose to not filter anything (you can choose that if you like) then you would be blinded by all data streams. You would see nothing.

SR5 p. 218 The Population of the Matrix
Every icon in the Matrix is one of six things: a persona, a device, a PAN, a file, a host, or a mark. Occasionally, you might also see a datastream, a transfer of data that looks like a thin beam of flickering, multi-colored light. Datastreams are normally filtered out of your Matrix view because if they weren’t, they’d be the only thing you would see. If you want, you can dial back on the filtering, but the streams pass by so quickly that you can’t tell where they’re coming from or going to without snooping on whatever is sending or receiving them, and that would be illegal (and we’d never do anything illegal in the Matrix, right?).


This is mentioned in several places in the book. Here is another example:

SR5 p. 217 Virtual Visions
The first piece of assistance comes from your commlink, which automatically filters out the least interesting icons. Do you want to know the virtual location of every music player in the world? Right, neither do I. So the Matrix will usually show you an icon for an individual’s personal area network (PAN), not every device in that network (although it makes exceptions for interesting or dangerous devices in that network, such as a gun). Additionally, the farther away devices are from you in the real world, the dimmer their icons are in the Matrix; this is partly because your commlink figures the farther ones aren’t as interesting to you, but mostly because the connection is a bit slower due to the distance.  Matrix gear renders the far-off devices and personas as dim, muted, or flickering icons. Also cutting down on the visual noise is the fact that some icons are deliberately hidden from view, such as locks and other security devices, baby monitors, maintenance monitors, and of course people who prefer not to be seen.


The example you are talking to is also mentioning that it is the observer that filter out what icons he want to see. Not the target PAN.

SR5 p. 224 Example
He’s in AR mode, with device icons superimposed on his vision. Right now he’s filtered out most of the icons...




I was thinking of that example too, but in that case I take the waitress' carelessness to mean she hasn't slaved it all to he comm and protected it sufficiently
Files cannot be slaved to your commlink (only devices can be slaves).

SR5 p. 235 PANs and WANs
Only devices can be slaves, masters, or part of a PAN.



it's not just out there for everyone to see.
Actually, files that are not protected can be read, viewed and listen to (this does not require a mark).

If a waitress have music albums that are not protected then anyone can listen to them.

SR5 p. 222 Life With a Commlink
Most of what you keep on your commlink are files, this includes music, your SIN (fake or otherwise), licenses (also fake or otherwise), maps, email messages, your contact book, AROs, and so on. These files are visible to people who can see your commlink in the Matrix, so most people keep all of their files in a protected folder.

The example you are talking about also mentioned this:

SR5 p. 224 Example
but since the waitress hasn’t protected her commlink’s privacy, he’s flipping through her music collection in a little virtual window that is linked by a pointer to a pouch at her hip.


But even if the file is not protected you still need to place your mark if you wish to change, copy or delete a file icon.

SR5 p. 239 Edit File
Marks Required: 1
Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file.



And there are only three different ways you can get your mark on an icon. The owner invite you to legally place your mark on his or her icon. You illegally force the icon to accept your mark (brute force) or you illegally trick the icon to accept your mark (hack on the fly).

SR5 p. 236 Recognition Keys
There are three ways to get a mark on an icon. The first is the legitimate way: the icon invites you to add a mark....The other two ways are by hacking, both Matrix actions: Brute Force (the loud way) or Hack on the Fly (the sneaky way).


This is also supported by the example (where he first listen to the albums he like - since the file is not protected he does not have to take the illegal crack file action and can simply listen to the albums before deciding on what to copy, then use the illegal hack on the fly to gain the access level he need to actually copy the album)

SR5 p. 224 Example
Seeing an album he likes (and having little respect for the law), he sleazes a mark...


While Edit File to copy the album is a legal action, Hack on the Fly to place the mark needed is not... this it is causing ripples in the matrix that GOD is reacting to... within an hour or so GOD will converge on BK unless he reboot his deck.

The example talk about this as well:

SR5 p. 224 Example
The mark flashes a little as it helps him copy the music file from her commlink. He knows this bit of mischief could be discovered by the Grid Overwatch Division, but he doesn’t care. He’s already enjoying the first cut of the album.
« Last Edit: <08-01-21/1711:00> by Xenon »

Xenon

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« Reply #13 on: <08-01-21/1715:17> »
Any filtering is done on the observer side. You (or rather your commlink) filter stuff for you all the time. If you choose to not filter anything (you can choose that if you like) then you would be blinded by all data streams. You would see nothing.
This is also the reason why getting aware (determine that they are present) of silent running icons in the vicinity is not very hard at all.

SR5 p. 235 Matrix Perception
Lucky for you, the Matrix is very helpful in finding things for you.

If you set your filters to only show you silent running icons in the vicinity then you only need one single net hit to get aware of all of them at once.

SR5 p. 235 Running Silent
asking if there are icons running silent in the vicinity (either in the same host or within 100 meters) can be a piece of information you learn with a hit.

To spot a specific icon that you are already aware of is also resolved with Matrix Perception.
If the icon is running silent then the test is opposed.
If not and within 100 meters, spotting is automatic.

SR5 p. 241 Matrix Perception
If you’re trying to spot an icon that is farther than 100 meters away, this is a Simple Test...If you’re looking for an icon that is running silent (after you’ve determined that it’s present), the test becomes an Opposed Test, with the target defending with Logic + Sleaze.[/quote]
« Last Edit: <08-01-21/1738:38> by Xenon »

RickDeckard

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« Reply #14 on: <08-02-21/0227:25> »
Thanks Xenon, this all makes sense now and I stand corrected. I hadn't put all those notes together to a coherent picture, so thanks for that.

Also clarifies how to handle silent running for me and my crew, so another kudos for that =)