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Adept spell and foci/fetishes

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #15 on: <05-24-20/1412:32> »
Interpreted what? That foci are reduced in force/turned off by background counts? Or that  violence and death can cause them?

Heck, Background Counts are the one thing that gives you a downside for not playing a mundane.  I should hope every GM employs them.

And as for 6th ed... no we don't have rules for them yet.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #16 on: <05-24-20/1427:43> »
Quote from: p32 Street Grimoire
Pre-existing active foci, sustained spells, quickened/anchored
spells and rituals are reduced by the background count. If they are
reduced to 0 or less, spells fizzle, wards and rituals collapse, foci
deactivate. A foci cannot activate while under the influence of the
background count.
So an active Focus is reduced in Force and may deactivate if overwhelmed, while an inactive Focus cannot be activated. As for Qi Foci, p319 SR5: "The Force of the focus must be four times the Power Point cost of the power it holds," so afaik most GMs go with that if the Force is reduced, so is the Power it holds.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #17 on: <05-24-20/1500:57> »
Interpreted what? That foci are reduced in force/turned off by background counts? Or that  violence and death can cause them?

Heck, Background Counts are the one thing that gives you a downside for not playing a mundane.  I should hope every GM employs them.

And as for 6th ed... no we don't have rules for them yet.

sorry, I was referring to a GM having you get a instant background count from killing someone. I don't think I have ever played in a game where a GM pulled that. Background counts are a train wreck of bad rules trying to fix mages being overpowered instead of dealing with the root causes. They could have been a interesting hook for stories instead they are just a cudgel.

Lormyr

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« Reply #18 on: <05-24-20/1749:06> »
sorry, I was referring to a GM having you get a instant background count from killing someone. I don't think I have ever played in a game where a GM pulled that. Background counts are a train wreck of bad rules trying to fix mages being overpowered instead of dealing with the root causes. They could have been a interesting hook for stories instead they are just a cudgel.

That is basically my issue with it as well. In scenario one, we could just have a balanced rule set. In scenario two, we basically let a person take clearly overpowered options, but balance it with occasional die pool penalties ranging from slight inconvenience to totally crippled or total removal of the option, with a frequency of "at whim".

Is there anyone who genuinely prefers scenario two?
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #19 on: <05-24-20/1926:36> »
sorry, I was referring to a GM having you get a instant background count from killing someone. I don't think I have ever played in a game where a GM pulled that. Background counts are a train wreck of bad rules trying to fix mages being overpowered instead of dealing with the root causes. They could have been a interesting hook for stories instead they are just a cudgel.

That is basically my issue with it as well. In scenario one, we could just have a balanced rule set. In scenario two, we basically let a person take clearly overpowered options, but balance it with occasional die pool penalties ranging from slight inconvenience to totally crippled or total removal of the option, with a frequency of "at whim".

Is there anyone who genuinely prefers scenario two?

Well, the devil's in the details.  Scenario two is indeed preferable as the less-bad option if the "fix" for Scenario one is no fix at all.  Or makes the situation worse.  And a topic like "how do you fix MagicRun" goes back to the beginning.  If it WAS an easy fix, wouldn't it have been fixed by now?
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

adzling

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« Reply #20 on: <05-25-20/0440:05> »
There is a relatively easy fix to magic run, sadly the devs have never explored it or implemented it and instead have amplified it.

Lormyr

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« Reply #21 on: <05-25-20/0545:55> »
Well, the devil's in the details.  Scenario two is indeed preferable as the less-bad option if the "fix" for Scenario one is no fix at all.  Or makes the situation worse.  And a topic like "how do you fix MagicRun" goes back to the beginning.  If it WAS an easy fix, wouldn't it have been fixed by now?

Sure, but the baffling part is why haven't they just balanced it? I think it easy an easy fix for any optimizer. Hell I could legitimately balance it appropriately, right now in 10 mins, with a single post. Speaking for SR5 on the core system from the CRB:

Magic Attribute
- Maximum rating at character creation is 4.
- Initiation increases the cap as normal, to an absolute maximum of 12.
- Maximum Initiation Grade is 8.

Resisting Magic
- Every full point of essence lost to ware adds one additional die to spell resistance pools. Does not stack with the magic resistance quality or the racial spell resistance of gnomes, fomorians, ect.

Mystic Adepts
- Must choose one of spellcasting, summoning, or enchanting, like an aspected mage. They may not use the other two skill groups or options.

Spells
- The maximum number of spells a spellcaster may know equals their magic attribute x2.
- Cost 10 karma each, rather than 5.

Spirits
- Do not gain hardened armor, instead gaining armor = to force.
- Completely remove aid sorcery, spell sustaining, and spell binding from bound spirit options.
- Cannot be oversummoned without metamagic.
- Spirits higher than Force 8 always get to simply choose to heed a summoner's call or ignore it, no rolls required.
- You can never have more than one spirit actively participating in combat. You can have more than one spirit engaged in non-combat tasks, however.

Metamagic
- New metamagic: each time it is taken summoner can summon spirits with a force one higher than their magic attribute. If you are already able to summon a spirit of Force 8, each instance of this metamagic instead allows you can add one additional power to said spirits.
- Quickening: the maximum number of spells that can be quickened on a single creature or object is equal to the highest magic attribute of any awakened characters who have quickened a spell on said creature or object.

Reagents
- Can only be used to ignore the force/maximum hits limit of spells that effect the caster his/herself, rather than ignore the limit on any spell.

Foci
- Have a maximum rating of 4.
- Only rating 1 and 2 foci can be crafted. Rating 3 and 4 are reserved for artifacts and/or other objects of historical importance.
- Cost quadruple the karma and nuyen listed.
- Ki foci totally reworked: 1 PP worth of powers per rating, costs equal to power foci.

That was easy, and it will work. Some people just might not like the specific changes, but that will always be the case.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

adzling

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« Reply #22 on: <05-25-20/0649:58> »
that covers 90% of it, nicely done Lormyr.

imho with that you don't even need to make every mage aspected.

just shows how inane magicrun is.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #23 on: <05-25-20/1021:33> »
...

That was easy, and it will work. Some people just might not like the specific changes, but that will always be the case.

Well, the second sentence is the rub, isn't it.  There are people who won't agree that the first sentence is true.

For what it's worth, I'd say you hit on some of the same problems I'd address as well if I were made King of Shadowrun for a Day.  But you didn't address others that I think are more important than some of the other things you did focus on. 

Let's start a new thread for this topic to further discuss ideas about balancing MagicRun rather than continuing to hijack this one :)
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.