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"duration" of control thoughts

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war_m0nger

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« on: <07-31-15/1210:08> »
Guys - new here so I apologize if this has been brought up before.  There's some question in my group as to the duration of control thoughts.  I read it as the number of net hits on casting is the number of successes a victim needs to accumulate on subsequent resistance tests to end the spell.  The spell does not end unless the victim actually hits that number or the mage ends sustain on the spell.  Another member of the group (who knows the game a lot better than I do) reads that the number of net hits sets the duration in number of combat rounds (i.e. if the mage gets 4 net successes, the max duration of the spell is 4 rounds).  The confusion comes from page 292 - book says "Keep track of your net hits as they determine how long you can sustain the spell."

Again, apologies if this has been hashed out before.

Quatar

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« Reply #1 on: <07-31-15/1217:32> »
The way I read it, it's basically an extended test on the victims part, when he reaches the threshold set by the original roll, he's free. Well actually each hit reduces the original hits, but it comes to the same end. Hence why you need to keep track of the original roll, so you know when the victim overcomes it.

There's no mention of combat rounds at all. As long as the mage sustains the spell and the victim doesn't roll (or isn't allowed to roll because the Force is too high) he can sustain it indefinitely.

war_m0nger

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« Reply #2 on: <07-31-15/1235:46> »
That's exactly how I see it.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #3 on: <07-31-15/1246:19> »
Seems pretty clear to me.

1. Caster rolls the initial check; target(s) roll to resist.
2. Caster records net hits.
3. On each turn (which may be problematic in non-structured time), the target can attempt to resist, again, but now their dice pool suffers a penalty of [Spell Force]
4. Each hit reduces the net hits (recorded in step 2) by 1.
5. Repeat steps 3-4 until the victim reduces net hits to 0 and breaks free or the caster stops sustaining.

The penalty is a good reason to cast at high Force and not just set a Limit with reagents!

And I'm not sure but the target seems like it would need to notice the magic or question the thought in order to occur to try and break free. This might be too strong. But if the compulsion seems like your own thought, it doesn't appear that you'd try to resist it UNLESS you thought that was really out of character for you to think that, or you knew you were being mind-controlled.

Compelling a security guard with a notion of "go ahead and buzz these people through the locked door" is different from "turn around and shoot my partner in the face, then myself." Even if Influence might be a better way to handle the former, Control Thoughts is another option.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Xenon

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« Reply #4 on: <07-31-15/1343:59> »
Control Thoughts is a subtle (not obvious) mental manipulation spell.
The victim of the spell may take a test for Noticing Magic.

If you cast a low force spell the victim will have a hard time to notice that his thoughts were controlled. If you cast a high force spell the victim will probably notice that his thoughts were controlled but he can't do anything about it.


SR5 p. 292 Manipulation Spells
A victim of mental manipulation spell may roll to notice the magical effect according to the usual rules for Perceiving Magic (p. 280). Some of the less subtle mental spells (Control Actions) are pretty obvious, but more subtle spells (like Control Thoughts) can be pretty insidious.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #5 on: <07-31-15/1409:05> »
There's the trade off - cast at low Force and he's less likely to notice, but more likely to break free. At high Force, he's more likely to notice and less likely to break free.
Playability > verisimilitude.