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Two Weapon Fighting in CRB-SE

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Typhus

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« on: <09-18-21/1410:38> »
I'm not certain I can fully grok the rules here.

What I'm wondering about is: Can I (for example) shoot two pistols at the same time at the same target?

The Multiple Attacks minor action specifies "two different targets", as does the Burst fire firing mode.  Its pretty clear that if I want to attack two different targets, I would split the dice pool and make 2 attacks.  That all makes sense.  It's less clear to me (unless I am missing a later rule) that it's allowable to do a double SA strike on the same target.

Maybe that's the correct read though?  It would make more sense to handle a double SA attack as a narrow burst mechanically anyway, since it also seems a like cheesing the rules to could get a higher baseline DV applied from two pistols than from a single 4 round burst, when you are really sending the same number of rounds at the target.  The "treat as narrow burst" ruling seems simpler. 

Edit: The combat section say this though:

"When making multiple attacks, divide your attacking dice pool by the number of attacks made as evenly as possible."  Does this mean one can use two guns as I'm asking about, or that the Multiple Attacks minor action rule text still applies?  (I would think it does, but I may be wrong)

« Last Edit: <09-18-21/1420:59> by Typhus »

Xenon

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« Reply #1 on: <09-18-21/1655:43> »
If you wield only one weapon then you can not make more than one attack against the same target in that action phase (but you can fire more than one bullet at the same target, just that it will be resolved as one single burst attack). In Semi Auto you also have the option to attack three different targets, in Burst fire you have the option to attack two different targets and in Full Auto you have the option to fire at anything that moves within a frontal cone AoE via suppressive fire.

If you wield one weapon in each hand then you can aim at two targets and pull each trigger at the same time and resolve each attack as an individual attack (by splitting your pool and taking multiple attacks. Not clear what will happen if you aim both weapons at the same target and then pull both triggers.

Since the attack is called Multiple Attacks (and not Multiple Targets) I would like to think that you resolve it as two different attacks against the same target (that this is one of the few advantages of dual wielding). This is also how we rule it.

They hint about this in the Throw Weapon section.

SR5 p. 166 Throw Weapon
Multiple readied throwing weapons can be thrown at a target within Short or Medium range by adding a Multiple Attacks Free Action

And Multiple Attacks on p. 110 only mention multiple attacks, not multiple targets.

But the rules are not very clear on this matter!

Typhus

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« Reply #2 on: <09-18-21/1810:53> »
Looks like there are rules to do it either way, just wondering if there's an intended version, or vagueness on purpose, or what. 

Since adding bullets scales differently, I feel like treating it as a burst for guns, but two separate rolls for multiple melee or thrown weapons makes enough sense to run with if there is an absence of a clear official rule.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <09-19-21/0008:56> »
There isn't an allowance for "dual wielding", per se.  At least not in the sense of spending 1 major action to attack with 2 different weapons.

If you are going all Wolverine with cyberspurs in each arm, the sad truth is there's technically no difference between spending 2 majors for right and left, and 2 majors to attack twice with right or left.  Well, not including the potential for off hand penalties anyway...

Now, 5e had its own semi-official, SRM campaign rule to cover dual wielding: if you use two identical weapons you gain +1 reach when attacking with either one.  So in the wolverine example, you're still only making 1 spur attack per attack but threatening with a pair is at least giving you something of a benefit.  Of course that can't be directly ported into 6e, but since reach and other factors are combined together into AR, I could see granting an AR bonus to one weapon's attack when dual wielding.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Typhus

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« Reply #4 on: <09-19-21/0213:15> »
I assume you mean "dual wielding" in sense that it's against a single target?

Assuming true, I guess that answers my question.  There is no rule, and further it's not intended to be allowed, despite how illogical that is.

Realistically, if i can look left, and go "pew pew" with one gun, and then look right and go "pew pew" with the the other, then I have the time to simply look straight ahead and go " pew pew + pew pew".  I think I've posted my own fix to that, at least with guns.  Treat as Narrow Burst.  Two BF attacks would be -6AR for a +3 to damage or something.

I get that you don't want to allow two separate baseline DV occurrences against the same target with the same action.  That math is lousy. 
However, per the thrown weapons rule, those weapons get to do exactly that. 

Boosting AR for dual wielding melee weapons seems reasonable, tho not very satisfying.  Also runs afoul of the off hand penalty.  If its a single roll, should it get Edge or not?  Etc, etc.  Melee definitely gets trickier.


Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: <09-19-21/0438:23> »
Shit. Just realized that we are talking about CRB Seattle Edition and not CRB 5th Edition (my answer above and quotes are for 5th edition)!



In 6th edition prior Seattle it was explicitly mentioned that multiple attacks could be used against multiple targets or twice against the same target. Reinforcing my reading of how it worked. This was also clarified in SRM for 6th edition.

SR6 p. 110 Off-Hand Attacks
If you’re attacking with two hands, the attack from your primary hand can still gain and spend Edge; for other rules, see Multiple Attacks below.

SR6 p. 111 Multiple Attacks
This can be against multiple targets, or you could attempt two attacks against the same target.

SRM - When do I use Multiple Attack and when do I use Firing Modes? How do they interact?
The ONLY time you use Multiple Attacks with firearms is when you are simultaneously attacking with more than one gun.

We read this as if you are dual wielding you can take one attack action with each weapon as part of the same major attack action by also taking a multiple attacks minor action and splitting the pool. No matter if used to attack two different targets once each or if attacking the same target twice.



However, with the recent Seattle Update, this line of text in SR6 have been revoked. Which seem to indicate that this is no longer RAI...!

It still seem as if you have the option to attack different targets with different weapons (for example a pistol and a sword, two pistols or a sword and an axe) in the same major action by using the multiple attack minor action (it have now been clarified that multiple attacks minor action is not used with just one firearm). But it does no longer seem to be RAI that you attack the same target twice (which I think is sad, it used to be one of the few things promoting dual wielding pistols or axes or swords etc).

We will probably still rule it that way, but after the change of wording I think I will have a much harder time argue that this is actually also supported by the rules :-(
« Last Edit: <09-19-21/0502:04> by Xenon »

Xenon

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« Reply #6 on: <09-19-21/0453:26> »
For melee we rule that you can take the multiple attacks minor action to attack multiple targets with the same weapon (you don't have the same restriction here as with a single firearm that never uses the multiple attacks minor action).

And if you dual wield we (at least used to, and probably still will) rule that you also have the option to attack the same target once with each weapon (melee+melee, melee+range or range+range - same rule) by taken the multiple attack minor action and resolve it as two separate attacks. Off-hand penalties applying to the off-hand attack as normal.


And for throwing weapons we ruled the same here as well. That you can attack multiple targets, once with each readied throwing weapon. Or throwing multiple throwing weapons against the same target. In both cases by adding a multiple attacks minor action and splitting the pool. Treating each throwing weapon as its own attack.

This keeps it consistent (for us) no matter what type of weapon you are using.

One weapon? you can only attack the same target once. Two weapons at the same time? You can attack the same target twice by splitting the pool and adding a multiple attack minor action.



edit: It would be great to get some sort of clarification on how to officially resolve the situation where a player aim two single shot guns at the head of one single target and then pull both triggers at the same time.
« Last Edit: <09-19-21/0503:44> by Xenon »

MercilessMing

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« Reply #7 on: <09-19-21/1103:17> »
For melee we rule that you can take the multiple attacks minor action to attack multiple targets with the same weapon (you don't have the same restriction here as with a single firearm that never uses the multiple attacks minor action).

I'm retreading a bit of old ground, but I'd like to get some clarification on Firing Modes and Multiple Attacks now that we have new errata.  Just want to keep things clear.

Quote from: SR6 3rd Printing pg 109
Every ranged weapon can fire in Single Shot (SS) mode, even if that option is not explicitly listed. Many guns have additional modes available: Semi-Automatic (SA), Burst Fire (BF), and Fully Automatic (FA). These firing modes offer tactical options at the expense of overall accuracy. They do not require use of Multiple Attacks (p. 42).
"They do not require the use of Multiple Attacks (pg 42)".  That's not the same as: "They never use/they do not use/they cannot be used with  Multiple Attacks (pg 42)".  I'm not a fan of that wording.  I get that Burst Fire wide and Full Auto do not use Multiple Attacks minor when they attack multiple targets.  But if I have the question of whether I can use SS, SA, or BF (narrow) with the Multiple Attacks minor, I don't have a clear answer.  SS is mentioned separately from SA/BF/FA so I might glean that SS does require use of the Multiple Attacks minor when attacking multiple targets.  But where is a statement that SA and BF narrow can or cannot be combined with Multiple Attacks?  I believe the RAI is that you cannot make Multiple Attacks with SA and BF narrow - only SS and BF wide (I'm not counting FA because it doesn't follow the Multiple Attacks split mechanic).  But I have nothing to back that up.  To me, the plain reading of the rules is that Multiple Attacks allows you to make more than one attack action with the same Major, and Firing Modes are changes to your attack action.  Therefore one attack action could be a narrow burst and so could the second.  If the statement "They do not require use of Multiple Attacks (pg 42)" was supposed to clarify this point, I think it missed.  Going off RAW I would allow someone to make multiple attacks in SA and BF narrow mode and wouldn't require them to use the Multiple Attacks minor, because firing modes (aside from SS?) don't require use of Multiple Attacks minor.

So help me out, what is the RAI and what are the rules that support it?

Is it this little bit inside the description of Multiple Attacks Minor?
Quote from: SR6 3rd Printing pg 42
A character can attack more than one opponent, assuming ammunition, reach, and enemy placement allow it.
  Is "ammunition" supposed to refer to the number of bullets fired from my weapon during the attack, and that is the limit to how many attacks I can make with a Multiple Attacks minor?  If so, why does a special rule for wide burst even exist?  It should have been a more general rule for how to calculate damage based on how many bullets are in each burst during a Multiple Attack action.   And ammunition isn't a very good word because that it generally understood to be how much ammunition you have in reserve, not how much you're currently firing.




« Last Edit: <09-19-21/1106:13> by MercilessMing »

Typhus

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« Reply #8 on: <09-19-21/1221:43> »
As I read it, a Major action is need to make an attack roll, regardless of firing mode.  You can *only* make more than one attack roll with a Major action by also using the minor action Multiple Attacks (in which case, you split the dice pool).  The firing mode rules are there to inform you this is an exception to the normal rule regarding attacking more than one target at a time (in those modes).

It still leaves out the two-guns-vs-one-target question since the text of the Multiple Attacks minor action couches it as "each target". 

Speculation from the sidelines, but the word "require" leads me there.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #9 on: <09-19-21/1227:32> »
I can shed light on the RAI, since it came from errata ;)

The new wording for multiple attacks is intended to only apply to "one weapon, multiple targets".

If you want to do "two weapons, one target" that for now* requires 2 major actions: one attack per weapon.

Double Clutch has a new action for vehicles/drones firing multiple weapons on the same target.  You could, if you wanted to, extend that to a metahuman holding a gun in each hand, but that's not what that rule was built to assume.

* I do expect either an official FAQ or a future rulebook to cover the option to use 2 weapons on one target, distinct from the Double Clutch option.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

MercilessMing

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« Reply #10 on: <09-19-21/1654:17> »
The new wording for multiple attacks is intended to only apply to "one weapon, multiple targets".
I assumed that.  Maybe I wasn't clear, I was asking what are the RAI for making multiple attacks with a firearm, and what are the rules that support this? 
Can I make multiple SS attacks against multiple opponents if I have enough ammo in my mag
Can I make multiple SA attacks given the same situation
Can I make multiple BF narrow attacks
Multiple BF wide attacks
Multiple FA attacks

And if "(These firing modes) do not require use of Multiple Attacks",  when is Multiple Attacks used with Firearms?

Xenon

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« Reply #11 on: <09-19-21/1656:56> »
But if I have the question of whether I can use SS, SA, or BF (narrow) with the Multiple Attacks minor
If you are just wielding one weapon, then no.



Is "ammunition" supposed to refer to the number of bullets fired from my weapon during the attack, and that is the limit to how many attacks I can make with a Multiple Attacks minor? 
Wait, what?

Single Shot = Tap trigger once. One target only. No Multiple Attack.

Semi Automatic = double tap. One target only. No Multiple Attack.
- You can't hit two different targets with this attack.

Burst Fire = tapping the trigger once and out flies 4 bullets. Either you hit one target (narrow burst) or you spray two targets that stand close enough to be hit by the burst (wide burst, but does not cost a multiple attacks minor action)
- You can't hit four different targets with this attack.

Xenon

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« Reply #12 on: <09-19-21/1705:15> »
Can I make multiple SS attacks against multiple opponents if I have enough ammo in my mag
No. With each Major action you only press the trigger once and you only fire one bullet. You can not hit multiple targets with one weapon in single shot mode.


Can I make multiple SA attacks given the same situation
No. With each Major action you "double tap" your weapon, both bullets will hit the same target. You can not hit multiple targets with one weapon in semi automatic mode.

Same reasoning with the others. With one major action you can fire a burst fire weapon just once. Either you focus the burst of 4 bullets against one single target (narrow burst) or you spray the burst of 4 bullets against max two enemies (that are 'positioned' well enough to be hit by this wide burst - book doesn't give specifics but perhaps they are within 1˝ meters of each other with no other targets between them, GM call here).


And if "(These firing modes) do not require use of Multiple Attacks",  when is Multiple Attacks used with Firearms?
When you wield 2 weapons.

MercilessMing

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« Reply #13 on: <09-19-21/1722:02> »
Can I make multiple SS attacks against multiple opponents if I have enough ammo in my mag
No. With each Major action you only press the trigger once and you only fire one bullet. You can not hit multiple targets with one weapon in single shot mode.
So, what is the rule that supports the idea that each major action is one trigger pull, instead of each attack being one trigger pull?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #14 on: <09-19-21/1737:40> »
The new wording for multiple attacks is intended to only apply to "one weapon, multiple targets".
I assumed that.  Maybe I wasn't clear, I was asking what are the RAI for making multiple attacks with a firearm, and what are the rules that support this? 
Can I make multiple SS attacks against multiple opponents if I have enough ammo in my mag
Can I make multiple SA attacks given the same situation
Can I make multiple BF narrow attacks
Multiple BF wide attacks
Multiple FA attacks

And if "(These firing modes) do not require use of Multiple Attacks",  when is Multiple Attacks used with Firearms?

The RAI on the errata is that you can combine the multiple attacks action with "non firing mode" attacks... which would also be another way of saying SS attacks.   Yes you are supposed to be able to spend a multiple attacks minor action to go BLAM BLAM at two different targets*, but if you do it's at the unmodified, base AR and DR (and of course with diminished dice pools, unless you anticipate).

*Edit: Maybe, and only ever with complete GM permission, you go BLAM and send one bullet through two targets where one is standing directly behind the other... if the GM lets you attempt this that should require the multiple attacks action.  In the immortal words of Deadpool when addressing more NPCs than he has bullets: "Some of you are going to have to share..."
« Last Edit: <09-19-21/1747:34> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.