[8-bit]

Under the Improved Reflexes power, it says that it does not stack with any other boosts (magical or technological) to Initiative. I'm assuming that means stuff like Synaptic Boosters? I want to know if Suprathyroid Gland counts, since it does increase your Reaction, which increases initiative. So, there are 3 situations I can think of that would apply here.

1) They stack, no problems.
2) They don't stack, and I have to pick one or the other.
3) They don't stack, but I still get the other bonuses from Suprathyroid Gland except for Reaction

Anyone know how this works?

[Namikaze]

Great question!

Any improvements to Reaction do thus increase Initiative, but the bonus from a Suprathyroid Gland does not directly affect Initiative Dice, like Wired Reflexes or Synaptic Boosters.  Thus, I would argue that the bonus is stacking so long as it doesn't give more than +4 bonus.  The only circumstance in which someone can break that +4 bonus is with drugs.

[ZeConster]

It's a matter of some debate: on one extreme you even have people who say that Adrenaline Rush, since it impacts the broader 'concept' of Initiative, doesn't stack with anything.

[Xenon]

Afb do can't check wording on gland,  but if it is compatible with magic increase to reaction then they both stack for the purpose of calculating your pilot dice pool or your defense dice pool.

You can have both but only count either the adept power or glands when it comes to initiative since the adept power is not compatible with glands when it comes to initiative.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I usually treat this as a two-part problem, using the wired reflexes / reaction enhancers guideline.

Wired reflexes are a two-part system: the Reaction boost, and the Reflex (initiative) boost.  Reaction enhancers increase only Reaction.  They don't stack with reaction enhancers, except for when you have both of them on wireless mode; choose one or the other.  However, when the person who has both isn't running them both on wireless, he can choose which one applies to each increase; he could have, for example, the reaction enhancers applying to Reaction, and the wired reflexes applying to Initiative.

In my mind, the same goes with any other multiple-enhancement system; the FAQ supports this interpretation.  If you have multiple boosts to X, you have to pick which boost applies from time to time.  Since the suprathyroid gland supplies only a +1 Reaction, and Improved Reflexes supplies its level, at any level besides 1 it makes more sense to apply the adept power.

Overall, however, it's stated that things don't stack - but remember also that reaction is now seperate from initiative.

[Xenon]

Book is pretty clear that you can still activate two augmentations that are incompatible, but if they are incompatible you have to choose which augmentation bonus you use and when.

According to the book; Initiative is made up by three parts. Initiative Attribute, Initiative Dice and Initiative Score.

The adept power is not incompatible with enhancements to Initiative Dice,  but to Initiative (which by definition include Attribute, Dice and Score). This mean it is incompatible with augmentations that increase Initiative Attribute (such as Glands) for the purpose of calculating Initiative. But it is compatible with augmentations to reaction (such as Glands) for the purpose of calculating your pilot dice pool.

[adzling]

uh the Suprathyroid enhances your REACTION attribute NOT your INITIATIVE directly.

This means it WILL stack with any enhancement that only affects your INITIATIVE.

It will ALSO stack with any REACTION enhancement up to the augmented maximum unless the other one says specifically it won't.

Improved Reflexes clearly states it won't work, so your SOL.

BTW there ain't such thing as a wireless Suprathyroid gland....at least not yet there ain't...

[ZeConster]

Book is pretty clear that you can still activate two augmentations that are incompatible, but if they are incompatible you have to choose which augmentation bonus you use and when.

According to the book; Initiative is made up by three parts. Initiative Attribute, Initiative Dice and Initiative Score.

The adept power is not incompatible with enhancements to Initiative Dice,  but to Initiative (which by definition include Attribute, Dice and Score). This mean it is incompatible with augmentations that increase Initiative Attribute (such as Glands) for the purpose of calculating Initiative. But it is compatible with augmentations to reaction (such as Glands) for the purpose of calculating your pilot dice pool.

And this would be the "one extreme" I spoke about.

[Xenon]

Not sure most people would find it extreme that you can't improve your initiative with both improved reflexes and adrenaline rush at the same time

[ZeConster]

Not sure most people would find it extreme that you can't improve your initiative with both improved reflexes and adrenaline rush at the same time

I call "in this sentence, when they say "Reaction", they mean the Reaction Attribute, but when in the very next sentence, they say "Initiative", they mean the broader concept, not the Attribute" pretty extreme.

[Xenon]

Are you seriously suggesting that improved reflexes, that give up to 3 extra initiative dice, is compatible with further magical or technological increases to initiative dice?

Interesting...

I don't share that interpretation (the book define initiative as attribute, score and dice - not just attribute), but still interesting




SR5 p. 159 Initiative
Initiative determines the order in which characters act, as well as how often they act during a single Combat Turn. Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice.

Improved Reflexes + Initiative above and you get:
...the increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice.

[ZeConster]

I am not going through this farce of an argument again, where you pretend the existence of a broader concept named "Initiative" somehow means every single time "Initiative" is mentioned in the book it refers to the concept, not the Attribute, and act like the burden of proof lies with me, then when I do go through the almost 500 uses of the word "Initiative" in the book, completely disregard my conclusions.

[Xenon]

Fair enough.

But just to be clear (i will not push it further beyond this post and a simple "Yes" or "No" is enough);
...by your reading, do you consider that:
"Improved Reflexes can be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative Dice"

[ZeConster]

Only if that something doesn't also increase Reaction, Intuition, or the Initiative Attribute directly.

[Xenon]

Been reading through the book again, using your point of view (that when they type Initiative they specifically mean Initiative Attribute) and I can now see how it can be read that way (doesn't mean I agree with this interpretation, just that I now have an understanding that the book might or might not be ambiguous).

All technological and magical increases to Initiative Dice also seem to increase Initiative Attribute (either direct or indirect) so they would still be incompatible with your reading. None of them are specifically incompatible with increases to Initiative Score. The only game mechanic difference it seem to have is that Adrenaline Boost (that increase Initiative Score,  and not Initiative [Attribute]) would now be compatible with pretty much everything that is incompatible with Initiative [Attribute] (but then again Initiative Score is derived from both Initiative Dice and Attribute....)

In the case of OP it would have no impact at all (unless I misunderstood you). Improved Reflexes would still be compatible with Glands for the purpose of calculating the pilot skill dice pool and it would still be incompatible with Glands for the purpose of calculating the Initiative [Attribute].