[SDTroll]

The noise rules still confuse me some, I know surprise, surprise.

I understand the concept, the farther away you are the lower your numbers and too far away you can’t affect the system at all.  What happens if one person has a strong enough cyberdeck to penetrate the noise, but his target doesn’t? Say a hacker is across the city, his system lets him overcome the noise, so he decides to attack a commuter who has a crappy commlink and can’t overcome the noise to the hacker? Can the hacker hit the commuter with impunity? Assuming he doesn’t bring GOD down on himself. Can the commuter even see the hacker? Or does the noise prevent the hacker from being detected?

[Xenon]

What happens if one person has a strong enough cyberdeck to penetrate the noise, but his target doesn’t?

If the target does not have enough to beat situational noise (spam zone, static zone, jammer etc) then it will not be connected to the matrix. There is often no distance to talk about here (for the target) unless perhaps in the case where the target don't have a satellite link and the target is also (are at the same time) out in the wilderness far far away from other networks.

A target that suffer too much noise will not be connected to the matrix, will not benefit from wireless bonuses and can also not cannot be hacked (unless via direct connection).

Say a hacker is across the city, his system lets him overcome the noise, so he decides to attack a commuter who has a crappy commlink and can’t overcome the noise to the hacker?

The commuter don't need to overcome the distance between the himself and a potential hacker. The commuter only need enough to beat the local static or spam zone generated noise in order to be connected to the matrix.

Can the hacker hit the commuter with impunity? Assuming he doesn’t bring GOD down on himself.

Since the commuter don't have a cyberdeck he cannot engage the hacker in cybercombat, even if he had enough noise reduction to interact with the hacker.

Having said that, the commuter can still defend against data spike using the firewall of his crappy commlink, take the matrix full defense action to add firewall a second time and/or turn off his wireless enabled devices.

Can the commuter even see the hacker?

Yes.

Unless the hacker's network is currently trying to hide (running silent). In that case the commuter need to first spot the hacker's network (which might be tricky due to the extra noise modifier due to distance).

[SDTroll]

I’m really not trying to be dense, let me try a more specific example. Hacker Jack is sitting in his van 100 km from the run site. This gives him a 5 noise rating. Fortunately he has a rating 6 cyber jack and cyberdeck. He can just barely affect the target with a -5.  Due to that, or just bad luck he alerts the security spider. The company is on a budget, so the spider has a rating 4 deck and jack. The physical distance between them is still 100 km, so can the spider even affect Jack? Presumably he can defend against Jack’s attack, but the noise should prevent him from targeting Jack, right?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Xenon and I have a difference of opinion on Noise and Hosts.  You can read more about our different points of view here... I won't derail this thread by repeating them here.

But with regards to my POV, I'd give you my answer to your more specific example.

I’m really not trying to be dense, let me try a more specific example. Hacker Jack is sitting in his van 100 km from the run site. This gives him a 5 noise rating. Fortunately he has a rating 6 cyber jack and cyberdeck. He can just barely affect the target with a -5.  Due to that, or just bad luck he alerts the security spider. The company is on a budget, so the spider has a rating 4 deck and jack. The physical distance between them is still 100 km, so can the spider even affect Jack? Presumably he can defend against Jack’s attack, but the noise should prevent him from targeting Jack, right?

Ok, Hacker Jack is 100km away from the facility the run will infiltrate, resulting in 5 Noise, and no other local conditions inflict more Noise on him. So he's able to hack icons networked to the Host at -5 dice (or even a smaller penalty, if he's got Signal Scrubber or other Noise reduction tricks in play).  Now, Hosts have a lot of similarities to PANs but they're not the exact same thing as PANs.  For example, you "Enter" Hosts (see pg. 181) but when it comes to hacking PANs, you just achieve whatever level of access you desire and go from there.

Now, it doesn't SAY you ignore distance after executing the Enter Host action, but IMO that's a simple oversight and the intent is that you do cease to count distance based Noise after entering the Host.  But presuming you do ignore the distance based Noise- then the IC and Spiders have no Noise-based trouble taking actions against a Persona inside their own Host.

Of course if you DON'T presume you ignore distance when inside Hosts, then yes on top of the problem of "how does global commerce even work" you have the problem of potentially having Spiders and IC being unable to affect a hacker, which surely isn't the intent.

[Xenon]

Book doesn't really say.

In previous edition noise due to distance did only act as a negative dice pool modifier (think latency when playing online FPS games) and you were also considered Directly Connected (zero distance) to icons within the same host (no matter physical distance).

Not clear if this is still the intent or not.

With a strict reading of RAW you are no longer considered directly connected even if you are in the same host which mean the physical distance will count as a negative dice pool modifier.

A strict reading of RAW also says that if the [total] noise rating (situational noise due to for example static zones, spam zones, hammers + inhabiting noise due to for example wireless negating paint or wallpaper or the jam signal matrix action + noise due to distance - noise reduction) exceed device rating then you cannot connect and no action is possible.

Having said that, there is also an edge action that let you take a matrix action even in extreme noise situations.


Slipped by Stainless Steel Devil Rat (but we basically say the same thing).

[SDTroll]

So it sounds like my confusion about noise is fairly universal.

Just as an interesting question, what do people think security spiders use to get online? Cyberdeck are illegal, so they shouldn’t be able to use those, although extra territoriality might change that for the really big corps. Maybe an idea for a corporate service. A Corp with extraterritoriality hires out spiders to help smaller corps defend their nodes

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well, what's illegal for the general public isn't always illegal for legit users.  Army soldiers can use tanks, even though there's no such thing as a license for one.

Same thing with spiders. They're NPCs. It's legal for them to have cyberdecks.  They don't have to follow the rules.  Suck it, shadowrunner.

[Banshee]

Hey gang just my 2 cents worth of opinion... but yes I would agree that noise due to distance inside a host should not be an issue, at least for legit users.

What I mean by that is Hacker Jack whibis trying to gain access from 100km will be paying the price for being so far away but Spider Joe has a legitimate secure connection to the host since he belongs there according to the host and owner and therefore has no distance penalty for being connected. Also since Hacker Jack came to him he does not have distance penalty to effect Hacker Jacka persona there too. It's the price you pay for being an illegal user.

As for devices,  as others said... yes those corporate spiders have cyberdecks of their own. Cyberdecks are only illegal for the general public because the corps don't want them on the streets.

[SDTroll]

Hey gang just my 2 cents worth of opinion... but yes I would agree that noise due to distance inside a host should not be an issue, at least for legit users.

What I mean by that is Hacker Jack whibis trying to gain access from 100km will be paying the price for being so far away but Spider Joe has a legitimate secure connection to the host since he belongs there according to the host and owner and therefore has no distance penalty for being connected. Also since Hacker Jack came to him he does not have distance penalty to effect Hacker Jacka persona there too. It's the price you pay for being an illegal user

Except the noise chart specifically says physical distance to target. Hacker Jack hasn’t changed his physical distance by going to the host in the matrix, so why wouldn’t noise apply? He is still 100km away. No question the spider would have no noise from distance when interacting with things physically present at the host, automatic guns, door locks, last ditch nuclear deterrent in the basement, but Hacker Jack isn’t physically present.

[Michael Chandra]

Because Hosts are global. You either have a Host that's only locally accessible, or you have a Host that's simply there. You don't remote hack into a Host located in Seattle, you hack into a Host. That's what sets apart a Host from a PAN.

[SDTroll]

Because Hosts are global. You either have a Host that's only locally accessible, or you have a Host that's simply there. You don't remote hack into a Host located in Seattle, you hack into a Host. That's what sets apart a Host from a PAN.

So, why does a hacker face distance noise? If the host is everywhere it should be just as easy to access it from the Arctic Circle or downtown Seattle

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Because Hosts are global. You either have a Host that's only locally accessible, or you have a Host that's simply there. You don't remote hack into a Host located in Seattle, you hack into a Host. That's what sets apart a Host from a PAN.

So, why does a hacker face distance noise? If the host is everywhere it should be just as easy to access it from the Arctic Circle or downtown Seattle

Even if you presume Hosts don't have a physical location, it doesn't mean that everything is immune to distance noise.  If you want to tap Mr. Johnson's commlink and listen to his commcalls, his physical location is still completely relevant.

[SDTroll]

Because Hosts are global. You either have a Host that's only locally accessible, or you have a Host that's simply there. You don't remote hack into a Host located in Seattle, you hack into a Host. That's what sets apart a Host from a PAN.

So, why does a hacker face distance noise? If the host is everywhere it should be just as easy to access it from the Arctic Circle or downtown Seattle

Even if you presume Hosts don't have a physical location, it doesn't mean that everything is immune to distance noise.  If you want to tap Mr. Johnson's commlink and listen to his commcalls, his physical location is still completely relevant.

Then noise would only matter when dealing with PANs and can be ignored with hosts?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

As discussed there are potentially different interpretations. But yes, it's my view that distance Noise applies to PANs and un-networked devices, and not to Hosts.

[SDTroll]

So back to hack the world from your living room, other than PAN