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Matrix - Spiders - and mental attributes

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Banshee

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« Reply #15 on: <12-15-19/2150:34> »
But at the same time you were not understanding the "in universe " reasoning so I thought I would share the mechanics reason for it.

So let me try this again ...

Ultimately noise due to distance just needs to take into account the distance between the hacker/user and the access point of the network they are attempting to use.

For legal corporate users and joe public (or shadow runner even) who is attempting to make a phone call or other mundane matrix action that is utilizing a public local host (and yes this includes international phone calls) have an effective distance of zero as long ad your in a modern developed area that has matrix support.
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SDTroll

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« Reply #16 on: <12-15-19/2236:23> »
But at the same time you were not understanding the "in universe " reasoning so I thought I would share the mechanics reason for it.

So let me try this again ...

Ultimately noise due to distance just needs to take into account the distance between the hacker/user and the access point of the network they are attempting to use.

For legal corporate users and joe public (or shadow runner even) who is attempting to make a phone call or other mundane matrix action that is utilizing a public local host (and yes this includes international phone calls) have an effective distance of zero as long ad your in a modern developed area that has matrix support.

I am really sorry, maybe I should just drop this but my friends asked me to run 6th Ed and I’m trying to get things straight. It sounds like you mean people can use a public access host as an access point, then interact with other hosts anywhere in the world without worrying about noise. Why can’t a hacker use the same public host? If a hacker can backdoor into Mitsuhama’s secure server and convince them they are a legitimate user, why can’t they do the same on a public access host?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #17 on: <12-15-19/2255:50> »
I'll go ahead and predict Banshee's answer:

Because if you're not hacking, you're not hacking.  There's those neat no-noise avenues available for legitimate use, yes.  But trying to do matrix crimes without getting caught means NOT using the  public avenues.  Yes, you're hacking them.  OS score and Noise and the matrix actions as described for hacking activities represent "going around" those public, legitimate means.

Do you want to do something purely legal, like make a commcall? great. don't have to worry about whether the recipient is a few meters, a few kilometers, or a few continents away.  Want to hack unauthorized access and trace the location? Ok, NOW distance matters.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

SDTroll

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« Reply #18 on: <12-16-19/0542:03> »
I'll go ahead and predict Banshee's answer:

Because if you're not hacking, you're not hacking.  There's those neat no-noise avenues available for legitimate use, yes.  But trying to do matrix crimes without getting caught means NOT using the  public avenues.  Yes, you're hacking them.  OS score and Noise and the matrix actions as described for hacking activities represent "going around" those public, legitimate means.

Do you want to do something purely legal, like make a commcall? great. don't have to worry about whether the recipient is a few meters, a few kilometers, or a few continents away.  Want to hack unauthorized access and trace the location? Ok, NOW distance matters.

That makes some sense, at least. Maybe I can sell it by saying a longer distance gives GOD more ability to detect your signal or something. I still don’t understand why spiders can ignore noise when performing illegal actions, but hopefully that won’t come up. We shall see tonight.

Banshee

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« Reply #19 on: <12-16-19/0655:20> »
SSDR has it 99.9% right.

It is somewhat about using public avenues but also that a secure host such as that corporate security hist you want to get into that had all the cool treats that you need to get to as a runner is also hidden behind a choke point of limited access control so it is not just matter of hopping onto the ol' interweb and inputting a web address to hop over there. You need to route through alternate routes and/or be within range of their wireless signal to even get to it effectively.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #20 on: <12-16-19/0656:48> »
So, who installed relays all the way across the ocean every km?
Technically, nobody did because the Sea Dragon would destroy that stuff.

I imagine an illegal signal is using all kinds of extra bandwidth to get its tricks across, compared to a legal action that's running through all the legal transfer stuff. In the end, however, all of it is pseudo-technobabble which we should figure out a decent Primer for, I guess.

The Matrix is Magic, though. Don't worry about having to justify exactly how it works.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

SDTroll

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« Reply #21 on: <12-16-19/0913:43> »
So, who installed relays all the way across the ocean every km?

I imagine an illegal signal is using all kinds of extra bandwidth to get its tricks across, compared to a legal action that's running through all the legal transfer stuff. In the end, however, all of it is pseudo-technobabble which we should figure out a decent Primer for, I guess.

The Matrix is Magic, though. Don't worry about having to justify exactly how it works.

Maybe it is the way we have always played Shadowrun, but the path to success for runners in my games tend to surround understanding the universe and using it to their advantage. On paper the corps have all the advantages, but those advantages make sense, even with magic.  This is the equivalent, for me, of saying all Corp mages take half drain, just because they work for a Corp. if I did that to my players they would immediately start doing legwork to figure out how it was done and see if they could somehow copy it. Now maybe they couldn’t, but they would want to know why. An explanation that says that security spiders have a high powered connection to the matrix because they use a dedicated Corp terminal rather than a cyberdeck and jack or in addition to a deck and jack would make sense. Of course, my players would immediately start scheming how to get access to it, but it would give them a reason. Saying the Matrix is magic and thus just screws them doesn’t. It will just frustrate them.

Banshee

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« Reply #22 on: <12-16-19/0942:46> »
So, who installed relays all the way across the ocean every km?

I imagine an illegal signal is using all kinds of extra bandwidth to get its tricks across, compared to a legal action that's running through all the legal transfer stuff. In the end, however, all of it is pseudo-technobabble which we should figure out a decent Primer for, I guess.

The Matrix is Magic, though. Don't worry about having to justify exactly how it works.

Maybe it is the way we have always played Shadowrun, but the path to success for runners in my games tend to surround understanding the universe and using it to their advantage. On paper the corps have all the advantages, but those advantages make sense, even with magic.  This is the equivalent, for me, of saying all Corp mages take half drain, just because they work for a Corp. if I did that to my players they would immediately start doing legwork to figure out how it was done and see if they could somehow copy it. Now maybe they couldn’t, but they would want to know why. An explanation that says that security spiders have a high powered connection to the matrix because they use a dedicated Corp terminal rather than a cyberdeck and jack or in addition to a deck and jack would make sense. Of course, my players would immediately start scheming how to get access to it, but it would give them a reason. Saying the Matrix is magic and thus just screws them doesn’t. It will just frustrate them.

But it's not "matrix is magic" at all, I personally hate that saying. Does it work as a direct extrapolation of real world networking no ..  but it's not that different either with a slight stretch of the imagination.

Ok, one more time in a different way to try and explain it to you again .....

The corporate spiders have a superior connection access point because they are legit users that the corporation has approved and provided (an access point inside the host). Hackers have to work harder and find different ways in that are not nearly as efficient to get to the same point that the spiders start at.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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SDTroll

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« Reply #23 on: <12-16-19/0956:44> »
Now that makes more sense to me. The basic explanation that spiders have better hardware and access to better systems makes sense over previous explanations which seemed to say that spiders are close to the hacker when the hacker is far away. Plus it gives my players a theory that they can try to get access to the equipment. Now spiders have an advantage, but it makes sense and the players can theoretically get it as well, however unlike that may be.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #24 on: <12-16-19/1040:50> »
At risk of putting words in Banshee's mouth... I'd theorize that such an access point he's describing is more of a system than merely some hardware.  Gaining access to that hardware isn't also putting a hacker on a whitelist of SINs authorized to use that hardware, nor is it necessarily true that the hardware even *works* when stolen and employed outside a registered control room, and etc.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

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« Reply #25 on: <12-16-19/1054:29> »
At risk of putting words in Banshee's mouth... I'd theorize that such an access point he's describing is more of a system than merely some hardware.  Gaining access to that hardware isn't also putting a hacker on a whitelist of SINs authorized to use that hardware, nor is it necessarily true that the hardware even *works* when stolen and employed outside a registered control room, and etc.

Yeah, there would be a lot of dominoes that would have to fall in place ... it's a combination of hardware, credentials, security protocols, and location.

Not something that players should ever be able to attain under normal circumstances but hey it's your campaign... GM's can "Do what we want!"
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #26 on: <12-16-19/1101:41> »
...  Gaining access to that hardware isn't also putting a hacker on a whitelist of SINs authorized to use that hardware...

I realized a quirk in the Spider/Hacker distinction that's new to 6we:

Spiders, by virtue of what they do and needing to be registered with GOD so that when THEY do illegal actions they don't generate Overwatch Score, surely are SINners.

Having a SIN does come with some matrix baggage! (See pg. 78)
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

SDTroll

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« Reply #27 on: <12-16-19/1137:30> »
At risk of putting words in Banshee's mouth... I'd theorize that such an access point he's describing is more of a system than merely some hardware.  Gaining access to that hardware isn't also putting a hacker on a whitelist of SINs authorized to use that hardware, nor is it necessarily true that the hardware even *works* when stolen and employed outside a registered control room, and etc.

Yeah, there would be a lot of dominoes that would have to fall in place ... it's a combination of hardware, credentials, security protocols, and location.

Not something that players should ever be able to attain under normal circumstances but hey it's your campaign... GM's can "Do what we want!"

Absolutely, I can’t imagine it happening, outside of getting a spider working for the team somehow, but it is theoretically possible, not just a magic hand wave that the hacker is mysteriously closer to the spider than he really is. I can work with that. My players couldn’t access the blood magic ritual that amped the power of Aztechs mages either, but they could learn about it and understand why it would work

Spinoza

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« Reply #28 on: <12-17-19/1453:16> »
At risk of putting words in Banshee's mouth... I'd theorize that such an access point he's describing is more of a system than merely some hardware.  Gaining access to that hardware isn't also putting a hacker on a whitelist of SINs authorized to use that hardware, nor is it necessarily true that the hardware even *works* when stolen and employed outside a registered control room, and etc.

Yeah, there would be a lot of dominoes that would have to fall in place ... it's a combination of hardware, credentials, security protocols, and location.

Not something that players should ever be able to attain under normal circumstances but hey it's your campaign... GM's can "Do what we want!"

As an IT professional, I look at it like this. I have all of the sys admin accounts with all of the privileges. I can go into any of my company's servers on our network/s (our "host") and shut things down, change things, whatever. Basically, I'm the spider for my company. I can do all this with ease and can safely ignore all of the banner messages that pop up when I connect to a system that state something to the effect of "This is a private network, unless you are authorized to be on this network any activity performed is a federal crime, blah blah..." I also have special accounts and programs that allow me to access all of this remotely, so I don't even have to be physically located at my office to do my job.

Now if someone wanted to hack my company's systems, they won't have such an easy time accessing them. They can try getting in through our website from anywhere in the world, but most companies put their public facing web sites in what's called a demilitarized zone (DMZ), which is a segregated part of the network on the external side of the firewall. In game, this would be like walking into the "lobby" of the host as a user and buying things. However, to do any useful hacking you'll need to get past the DMZ and through the firewall. This would be kind of like getting admin access. The "noise" level here would represent, to me, the difficulty of getting past a firewall from a remote location without proper authorization, plus any extra baggage you may be employing to cover your tracks. This type of intrusion would likely give you direct access to a data center's core networking equipment. It would be like trying to drop in from the ceiling on wires to avoid the laser "trip wires" to steal the thing.

Now if you were to physically drive to our facility and try to hack directly into our wifi network, you'd likely have a much easier time because once you've broken that network key, you're in. Although in reality, those networks are often segregated themselves into different VLANs (which I would represent as different "rooms" in the host) from the really important stuff... but eh, still easier than hacking through a firewall from a DMZ.

All of that to say, even with today's technology (and my company is at least a decade behind the curve), I have all of the tools I need to perform my job remotely with zero "noise" as long as I'm on a decent internet connection. A SR security spider would have all of this and more, whereas a decker may have the tools, but their routes of ingress largely won't change in 60 years. I have ways of explaining this with my limited knowledge of SR5 and SR6, but that would be for another post.


SDTroll

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« Reply #29 on: <12-17-19/1538:42> »
At risk of putting words in Banshee's mouth... I'd theorize that such an access point he's describing is more of a system than merely some hardware.  Gaining access to that hardware isn't also putting a hacker on a whitelist of SINs authorized to use that hardware, nor is it necessarily true that the hardware even *works* when stolen and employed outside a registered control room, and etc.

Yeah, there would be a lot of dominoes that would have to fall in place ... it's a combination of hardware, credentials, security protocols, and location.

Not something that players should ever be able to attain under normal circumstances but hey it's your campaign... GM's can "Do what we want!"

As an IT professional, I look at it like this. I have all of the sys admin accounts with all of the privileges. I can go into any of my company's servers on our network/s (our "host") and shut things down, change things, whatever. Basically, I'm the spider for my company. I can do all this with ease and can safely ignore all of the banner messages that pop up when I connect to a system that state something to the effect of "This is a private network, unless you are authorized to be on this network any activity performed is a federal crime, blah blah..." I also have special accounts and programs that allow me to access all of this remotely, so I don't even have to be physically located at my office to do my job.

Now if someone wanted to hack my company's systems, they won't have such an easy time accessing them. They can try getting in through our website from anywhere in the world, but most companies put their public facing web sites in what's called a demilitarized zone (DMZ), which is a segregated part of the network on the external side of the firewall. In game, this would be like walking into the "lobby" of the host as a user and buying things. However, to do any useful hacking you'll need to get past the DMZ and through the firewall. This would be kind of like getting admin access. The "noise" level here would represent, to me, the difficulty of getting past a firewall from a remote location without proper authorization, plus any extra baggage you may be employing to cover your tracks. This type of intrusion would likely give you direct access to a data center's core networking equipment. It would be like trying to drop in from the ceiling on wires to avoid the laser "trip wires" to steal the thing.

Now if you were to physically drive to our facility and try to hack directly into our wifi network, you'd likely have a much easier time because once you've broken that network key, you're in. Although in reality, those networks are often segregated themselves into different VLANs (which I would represent as different "rooms" in the host) from the really important stuff... but eh, still easier than hacking through a firewall from a DMZ.

All of that to say, even with today's technology (and my company is at least a decade behind the curve), I have all of the tools I need to perform my job remotely with zero "noise" as long as I'm on a decent internet connection. A SR security spider would have all of this and more, whereas a decker may have the tools, but their routes of ingress largely won't change in 60 years. I have ways of explaining this with my limited knowledge of SR5 and SR6, but that would be for another post.

That all makes sense to me, but most of what you are describing is you interacting with the host, not the intruder. In SR terms you are calling up IC and taking active defense actions to increase your system’s firewall. The original question was, if the intruder was far enough away to degrade their signal due to distance, would it also be more difficult for you to directly attack their computer, say by downloading a virus onto their computer. Please note, I’m fine with the answer I got, once it was pounded into my thick head. It didn’t come up in the game last night and we won’t be playing 6th ed any more, so it isn’t a big deal, now I’m just asking for clarity