[jman5000]

hey all.

spent a bit more time the last couple of days really digging into the matrix rules (our first run in tomorrow).

would appreciate a bit of clarification.

Several matrix actions are defended by ASDF + mental attributes.  See. IC defenses or Matrix Perception ( vs. Willpower + sleaze) as examples
Rules state if a persona or host doesn't have a stat - treat it as a zero (see Persona's and attributes pg. 174 - but this *may* only apply to ASDF - its unclear)

So now, I'm hacking a level 4 host using probe (vs. Willpower + firewall OR Firewall x 2).  this makes sense.  my host is (for lack of a better Shadowrun word) "unaware" its being probed, so it's defending using its Firewall x 2.

i win, now I exploit the host using backdoor entry:  Backdoor entry defends using VS. willpower + firewall.  if the host is unaware, willpower will be 0 dice, so will only defend using Firewall.

Could be that this is an error, and like Probe, it should be willpower + firewall OR firewall x 2 - but I'm going to assume the RAW is correct.

Reading the Host hacking example on pg 178, there is a mention of a spider, and the 2 cases used, Jack hacks an unaware host,the host only uses Firewall stat (think there is an error in there, as above, should be Firewall x 2).  While Mungo who's hacking a host that is aware and a "security spider" is in use.  Mungo is now up against a host that has both ASDF and mental attributes - making his hack much tougher.

ok.  I've laid the groundwork.  question time.
1)  what is a spider?  searching the PDF, there is exactly 14 mentions of the word spider - none of which actually defines what it is.
2)  What are a spider's stats?  is it based on your host rating (1-12) as per the hosts section on pg 185?  eg.  much like adding host +0, +1, +2, +3 to ASDF, you would do the same for a Spider's Mental Attribute?
3)  Can you "fight" a spider, like a persona, once its been engaged in defending its host?  Can a spider be defeated, or you must defeat the host instead?
4)  Can you perceive a host being controlled via a spider using Matrix perception, or other actions?  is there any way to become aware that you are now facing much tougher opposition because you blundered, or the patrol IC alerted someone/something?
5)  can you do things like "trace Icon" on a spider to find the control room in the building you are entering so the street sam can put a bullet through the head of the person causing the Decker such problems?

Anyway.  thanks for any insight.

Cheers,

J.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

1) Spider is an archetype like "riggger" or "decker".  Unlike those archetypes, they're NPC-only.  They are, in effect, hackers (may be deckers or technomancers) who are defending hosts rather than hacking them.  Spiders are the SysAdmins, basically.

2) A Spider is an NPC.  As with any NPC, you just make them up. You could use the Decker or Technomancer pregens as stats to begin with for ease of play.  But take care that generally, NPCs should be having worse stats than the PCs.

3) There's no such thing as "defeating" a host.  You can, however, engage a Spider in cybercombat and dumpshock or even kill him.

4) A Spider, like any other Persona, can run silent.  If he chooses to do so, you have to spot him.  However, the information gained through Matrix Perception is up to GM fiat. So, if you like, you can decide that a Hacker can learn that the Host is being actively "fine tuned" by a Spider, even if that Spider is successfully hiding from hackers. The number of hits necessary for this insight would also be up to GM fiat.

5) Potentially.  However, remember that telecommuting is a thing and Noise doesn't exist inside Hosts.  The spider's probably more likely to be physically located in some corporate matrix security ops center in Neo-Tokyo or London than physically present inside the same building as your Shadowrun.  But, again this is GM fiat.  If you want it to be possible for the team's decker to give the sammie a shot at poisoning the spider with lead, then sure, he's physically onsite.

Rules state if a persona or host doesn't have a stat - treat it as a zero (see Persona's and attributes pg. 174 - but this *may* only apply to ASDF - its unclear)

Note that there is errata on this topic.  If the target is defended, the relevant stat may be substituted in by the defender.

[jman5000]

ok.  cool.  thanks for the explanations.

so, chalk up "spider" to edition blindness.  I had no idea this is/was a persona, and is an archetype.

so if I'm understanding things correctly.
a host shows up as an icon.
IC, defending a host, also show up as an icon.

the decker, if observant and perceptive, can spot the patrol IC, other "attack" IC, and can determine (assume the spider is NOT running silent or Action hide) if a "spider" has been activated.

so, when an "undefended" host is attacked (say brute force), the spider becomes aware, and the spiders persona/icon can enter the scene.  the Decker can then "see" this persona just like IC or others.  and as a persona, can be "attacked" (tarpit or dataspike) in matrix combat.  Assuming a "win", the spider's device is bricked, the spider is ejected from the host, and the host is left undefended and the mental stats become zero (eg. Willpower).

until yesterday, i had assumed that only ASDF stats could be reassigned.  I wasn't aware that mental stat's could also be reassigned, and mixed with the ASDF physical ones (if I'm reading the answer correctly).

Cheers,

J.

[skalchemist]

so, chalk up "spider" to edition blindness.  I had no idea this is/was a persona, and is an archetype.

Up until this moment, I had assumed that "spiders" were AIs of some sort, but according to Devil Rat they are actual human beings.  "Spider" = "Hacker Defending a Host", seemingly?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

ok.  cool.  thanks for the explanations.

so, chalk up "spider" to edition blindness.  I had no idea this is/was a persona, and is an archetype.

Yes, "Spider" is just slang for "Security Decker" or "System Admin" or such.  Now, to inject some murkiness into what's hopefully clear now (hehe) "Spider" used to mean something else in older editions.  In older editions (IIRC SR2-3) "Spider" meant a specialized security Rigger who was jumped into a rigged building.  But, again, since SR4 Spider has just meant the NPC who's defending hosts.

so if I'm understanding things correctly.
a host shows up as an icon.
IC, defending a host, also show up as an icon.

Yes.  But to be pedantic and clear, a Host is one kind of icon, and IC have another type of icon called Persona. TYPES of icons are immediately clear from one another.  You cannot possibly confuse a Host's icon for IC, nor can you possibly confuse IC icon for something like a security camera's icon. (Devices have device icons).  Now otoh since Spiders and IC both have Persona icons, you need to succeed on a matrix perception test to tell if this particular persona is IC, a Spider, or just a regular employee using the host.  of course, the personas may use sculpting that makes their role obvious, but then again maybe a smart corp will make their IC and spiders look just like regular employee icons.  "Neo, Anyone you meet in the host could be IC...."

the decker, if observant and perceptive, can spot the patrol IC, other "attack" IC, and can determine (assume the spider is NOT running silent or Action hide) if a "spider" has been activated.

If a persona is not running silent, anyone in the host can automatically see it. But as stated above, just because you're seen it doesn't mean potentially hostile actors don't have to do matrix perception on the icon to learn details other than "its icon type is Persona".  The only way to tell what specific kind of IC a persona is, even if it's fairly obvious by sculpting, is to succeed on a matrix perception test.

so, when an "undefended" host is attacked (say brute force), the spider becomes aware, and the spiders persona/icon can enter the scene.  the Decker can then "see" this persona just like IC or others.  and as a persona, can be "attacked" (tarpit or dataspike) in matrix combat.  Assuming a "win", the spider's device is bricked, the spider is ejected from the host, and the host is left undefended and the mental stats become zero (eg. Willpower).

Assuming there's not a spider on duty 24/7. No one person can stay on-duty indefinately, but there's no reason a corp couldn't hire enough spiders to keep one on duty at all times.  Speaking of, there's no reason there couldn't be a BUNCH of spiders on duty, if you wanted a particularly robustly defended host...

And yes, if there is no spider on duty (due to scheduling, or the hacker being victorious in cybercombat) then there's no "defender" per se.

until yesterday, i had assumed that only ASDF stats could be reassigned.  I wasn't aware that mental stat's could also be reassigned, and mixed with the ASDF physical ones (if I'm reading the answer correctly).

Tricky topic, as potential errata is still pending.  But I do want to clarify that you can't just swap mental stats around.  quoting the published errata:
"Where two different dice pools are listed, such
as “Intuition + Firewall or Sleaze + Firewall,” per-
sonas with Mental attributes use the pool with
those attributes. Drones use their Pilot Rating in
place of the Mental Attribute. A persona actively
defending for a device or host can use the other
pool with the device or host attributes."

the bolded part is what I was referring to.  Want to be clear that you can't swap mental attributes like ASDF.

so, chalk up "spider" to edition blindness.  I had no idea this is/was a persona, and is an archetype.

Up until this moment, I had assumed that "spiders" were AIs of some sort, but according to Devil Rat they are actual human beings.  "Spider" = "Hacker Defending a Host", seemingly?

Yep.  Although once 6we has rules for AIs, there's no reason a Spider couldn't be an AI...

[jman5000]

OK.  I think I got it now

- a spider is a stated out NPC and its attributes are NOT linked to a host rating like a hosts ASDF stats are.  you build a spider like any other NPC.
- a spider is its own persona and has its own icon.  if not hiding, it can be instantly seen as it comes on scene, but unless the decker performs a matrix perception on this icon, the decker cannot instantly tell this is a spider (or for that matter, an icon being IC).
- once a spider is "engaged" defending a host (assuming a host is not 24x7 covered by a team of spiders), the decker could feel a perceptible increase in host defenses - but the decker does not know which persona / icon is adding to the defense of the host.
- the ASDF stats of of host can be swapped among themselves.  the mental stats of a spider are fixed.


2 last questions (I think )
- once a spider is defending a host.  say the host is rated at level 4, and the spider is "tougher" stat-wise (the cyberjack and deck have a better ASDF rating).  can the host use the spiders mental AND ASDF stats - or is ASDF always of the host?
- a host can deploy a number of IC = to its rating level.  if a spider comes online, can the spider deploy IC, and assuming the Jack/deck is rated higher, can the spider deploy more IC when defending a host?

Cheers.

J.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

OK.  I think I got it now

glad to be of help.  There is indeed a learning curve, and it's so much steeper if you haven't already played before....

- a spider is a stated out NPC and its attributes are NOT linked to a host rating like a hosts ASDF stats are.  you build a spider like any other NPC.

yep.

- a spider is its own persona and has its own icon.  if not hiding, it can be instantly seen as it comes on scene, but unless the decker performs a matrix perception on this icon, the decker cannot instantly tell this is a spider (or for that matter, an icon being IC).

Yes, but again in many cases a Spider shouldn't be having to come onto the scene.  As of this edition, hosts can't roll Host Rating in place of missing mental attributes and so because of this it should be general practice that any host that's not supposed to be an easy hack should have at least one Spider on duty 24/7.

- once a spider is "engaged" defending a host (assuming a host is not 24x7 covered by a team of spiders), the decker could feel a perceptible increase in host defenses - but the decker does not know which persona / icon is adding to the defense of the host.

This is a little hand-waivey.  But in purely mechanical terms, if the spider isn't running silent when arriving, then yes the hacker knows a new persona just appeared.  Is it an employee who coincidentally is logging at this moment? is it IC that just got launched? is it a responding spider? Contextual clues may exist, but the only way to know for sure is to matrix perception that new persona icon.    And if the spider was running silent, then the hacker has no notice whatsoever.  However, the hacker could always do a matrix perception on the host, and something you can ask is "are there silent running icons present?" if there weren't any before, and there are now, then that's useful info.  As an aside, Patrol IC and/or Spiders can matrix perception their own host and ask the same question, and the hacker gets no defense against this.  THis info doesn't SPOT a silent running persona, but knowing one is present is still potentially very useful.

- the ASDF stats of of host can be swapped among themselves.  the mental stats of a spider are fixed.

eeeeeeeehhhhh.  I'd play it that Hosts can't swap ASDF stats.  It's unclear as to whether they can or not, at least within the timeframe of a hack.

2 last questions (I think )
- once a spider is defending a host.  say the host is rated at level 4, and the spider is "tougher" stat-wise (the cyberjack and deck have a better ASDF rating).  can the host use the spiders mental AND ASDF stats - or is ASDF always of the host?

The errata is saying you can always use the better of the two.  Note that unless the spider has super duper gear, or the Host is pitiful, the Host should have better ASDF stats. But since you use the better of the two, a slick host isn't handicapped by having a spider with a crappy commlink, for example.

- a host can deploy a number of IC = to its rating level.  if a spider comes online, can the spider deploy IC, and assuming the Jack/deck is rated higher, can the spider deploy more IC when defending a host?

It's a function of the Host, not the Spider, to launch IC.  There's no way around launching 1 IC per round.  (of course, this could potentially change in future splatbooks)

[Michael Chandra]

Spider definition:

They use personnel,
known as security spiders, to protect their
Matrix investments.

[jman5000]

yeah, I read that, but it provides 0 context on how to use spiders in game.  that single sentence in the book is the only reference on what a spider is, buried in the Matrix access and PAN's section (not even in the persona's section ) with no guidance on how to build one.

Cheers,

J.

[Xenon]

Backdoor entry defends using VS. willpower + firewall.  if the host is unaware, willpower will be 0 dice, so will only defend using Firewall.

If the host is 'attended' or 'monitored' (which is different from 'unaware') by a security decker spider (or anyone else currently monitoring the host) then the host will defend with the willpower of the spider plus its own firewall. If it is not attended by a security decker spider then it will defend with its only firewall as a dice pool of its own. There are even an explicit Host Hack example on SR6 p. 178

1)  what is a spider?

SR5 p. 216 Matrix Jargon, Cont - Spider
A security hacker/rigger employed by a corporation or law-enforcement agency to protect a physical space or a host from hackers.

SR6 p. 173 Matrix access and PANs
They use personnel, known as security spiders, to protect their Matrix investments.

2)  What are a spider's stats? 

A Spider's willpower is whatever you set it to.
5 is a good number.

You have a professional rating 3 (minuteman security) sample rigger on SR6 p. 206 (willpower 4)
You have a professional rating 6 (doc wagon engineer) sample techno on SR6 p. 208 (willpower 5)
You have a professional rating 8 (spec ops level) sample decker on SR6 p. 209 (willpower 5)

3)  Can you "fight" a spider, like a persona, once its been engaged in defending its host?  Can a spider be defeated, or you must defeat the host instead?

Yes. It is a real person with a matrix persona.

You don't have to defeat the host before engaging with the spider.
You don't have to defeat the spider before engaging with the host.

The host will defend using its own IC no matter if there is a spider in the host or not.

4)  Can you perceive a host being controlled via a spider using Matrix perception, or other actions?  is there any way to become aware that you are now facing much tougher opposition because you blundered, or the patrol IC alerted someone/something?

From outside the host? No, not really.

5)  can you do things like "trace Icon" on a spider to find the control room in the building you are entering so the street sam can put a bullet through the head of the person causing the Decker such problems?

Yes, but you first need Admin access on the network that the spider currently belong to (which would normally be the same as the host).

Spider being part of the Host network would typically defend against your trace icon attempt using his or her own Willpower plus the Sleaze rating of the Host network.



Stainless Steel Devil Rat answered most of your questions, but I got a few nitpicks where I don't fully agree with his answers (because some things seem to have changed from previous edition and this edition):

4) A Spider, like any other Persona, can run silent. 

Note that in this edition it seem as if either the entire network is running silent or it isn't (unlike previous edition where individual icons could run silent). Also, once you gain user or admin access to the network you automatically spot all icons within the network. It is impossible to even use the illegal hide action if the observer is already inside your network (and in this edition you cannot 'attack' and 'kill' the access level of the hacker as you could with the Erase Mark action in previous edition).

A spider will most likely be part of the host network.

and Noise doesn't exist inside Hosts

You are thinking about previous edition (where hosts where normally everywhere and being inside a host indeed gave you a direct connection to anything connected to the host which in turn let you ignore noise modifiers). In previous edition it was highly likely that the spider was not physically close to the host.

In this edition being connected to a host does no longer give you a direct connection. It also no longer let you ignore noise.

If you had 4 points of noise to reach the host you will still suffer for 4 points of noise while inside the host. In case the host is linked to a physical location (which is a thing in this edition) it would be highly likely that the spider is also physically close to the same physical location.

Yes.  But to be pedantic and clear, a Host is one kind of icon, and IC have another type of icon called Persona.

To be pedantic and clear, in previous edition Host was one Icon and access (marks as they were called) was on a per Icon basis.
In this edition, however, 'Hosts' are made up by a shitload of different icons...

SR7 p. 173 Icons
Icons are a very broad category of Matrix objects. People have icons, called personas. Devices have icons. Hosts have a ton of icons, from the places they sculpt to the individual items that fill those backdrops. The software that you use has icons, and the security protocols chasing after you have icons, too.

...but it doesn't really matter and you don't really need to keep track on different icon types anymore since access is now instead tied to the whole 'network' rather than individual icons. Doesn't really matter if you have access on a device connected to a host or if you have access to a host. It is the same 'network'. If you already have access to the 'network' then you already have access to everything connected to the 'network'.

Speaking of, there's no reason there couldn't be a BUNCH of spiders on duty, if you wanted a particularly robustly defended host...

(but only the mental attribute of one of them will count as the defender of the host)

And yes, if there is no spider on duty (due to scheduling, or the hacker being victorious in cybercombat) then there's no "defender" per se.

Against for example the Backdoor Entry action the host will defend itself with its own firewall acting as a dice pool of its own and when using for example Data Spike on the Host's Patrol IC it will defend with the data processing + firewall rating of the host even if there is no spider monitoring the host....

There's no way around launching 1 IC per round.

(I know you mean that the host cannot launch IC quicker if a spider is present, but for completion sake and for other readers I just want to mention that the Suppression Complex Form may be used to delay IC from being launched once per round).

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Xenon, I think our minor disagreements boil down to stuff left unsaid (possibly due to having to be left out due to word count, or possibly due to no longer being true).

For Hosts, while they do work like PANs, I'm not prepared to agree that they ARE exactly PANs and treated exactly the same way.  So while it may be true an entire PAN is running silent or not, I don't think it necessarily follows that everything connected to a Host must all be running silent or not.

And yes, technically you're right that the CRB doesn't say you ignore Noise when Hosts are involved, you get into some craziness when you try to calculate distance-based Noise for a Host with no physical location.  And another problem is lore based, but only becomes a problem if you don't presume Hosts ignore Noise: How do Hosts conduct any business with customers?  Even if you assume there are no Hosts without physical locations, if you're trying to sell your space kazoos online the only people who can even reach your Host are the people who live very close to wherever your Host's physical location is.  If you say Noise isn't ignored when Hosts are involved, then global e-commerce suddenly stops being possible.  Which can't be the case.

[SDTroll]

Xenon, I think our minor disagreements boil down to stuff left unsaid (possibly due to having to be left out due to word count, or possibly due to no longer being true).

For Hosts, while they do work like PANs, I'm not prepared to agree that they ARE exactly PANs and treated exactly the same way.  So while it may be true an entire PAN is running silent or not, I don't think it necessarily follows that everything connected to a Host must all be running silent or not.

And yes, technically you're right that the CRB doesn't say you ignore Noise when Hosts are involved, you get into some craziness when you try to calculate distance-based Noise for a Host with no physical location.  And another problem is lore based, but only becomes a problem if you don't presume Hosts ignore Noise: How do Hosts conduct any business with customers?  Even if you assume there are no Hosts without physical locations, if you're trying to sell your space kazoos online the only people who can even reach your Host are the people who live very close to wherever your Host's physical location is.  If you say Noise isn't ignored when Hosts are involved, then global e-commerce suddenly stops being possible.  Which can't be the case.

Even if you ignore noise inside hosts, the customer still has to be able to reach the host to get in, right? So global commerce would be almost impossible any way, unless companies have little host outlets every km or less so people can reach them.  It’s even stranger to consider a Corporation trying to make an international conference call.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well personally, *I'd* presume that hosts simply don't have physical locations.  That makes even reaching a host in the first place distance-irrelevant.  But YMMV.

[Banshee]

From my perspective I think many people are just overthinking noise. It only exist as a limiting factor for hackers to prevent the hack the world from the safety of your couch. With that being said yes Hosts have physical locations as far as I'm concerned (always in my personal SR universe) because they are just super networks afterall and that craziness of being built on the souls of technomancers or whatever they want to call it doesn't make a lick of sense to me. It also means that should be the appropriate relays or access points throughout the network that allows normal everyday commerce and use for the global market and it's just those poor illegal hackers that get screwed over by noise because they are trying to work outside the box of what is normal activity.

Just a quick sidebar to the conversation.. unwanted to ditch noise altogether but was overruled and as I said it exist only to limit hackers.

[SDTroll]

So, who installed relays all the way across the ocean every km?

On a more serious note, most people I’ve played with in the past don’t appreciate a rule that is just designed to restrict the players without some explanation that makes at least a little sense. The idea that distance makes it harder to interact in the matrix makes sense. The idea that it only affects illegal hackers less so, especially when the whole point of the illegal activity is to appear legitimate.  Joe Smith can pick up his rating 1 commlink and call Japan to buy a kimono, but Hacker Jack can’t even connect with his rating 6 deck and jack. Unless he’s making a legitimate call, in which case the noise vanished, until he tries to probe the host, when he is immediately dumped due to noise