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[SR5] Data Trails?

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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #255 on: <06-04-15/1135:00> »
Pollution
I believe firebug is referencing the fact that a technomancer cannot perform the actions the Cat's Paw and Tantrum programs allow (or indeed any program) without Submerging and taking the Resonance Program echo for each individual karma.

To illustrate; a decker picks up Cat's Paw and Tantrum in order to be able to use these new features. the deckers technomancer friend has to submerge (spending 10+(grade*3) karma each time) and pick the Resonance Program echo for each of those, at minimum costing the technomancer 13+16=29 karma for something the decker pays 500¥.

I believe the second point references the Smoke-and-Mirrors program, which lets a decker increase his decks Sleaze attribute by a value between 1 and 5, at the cost of also increasing noise for "any test performed with the deck" by the same value. If all you're doing is running silently and/or trying to avoid detection after a successful Hide action +5 Sleaze is worth it's weight in gold, especially for only 250¥.

Firebug
Apologies if I made any incorrect presumptions; feel free to correct me if I did.

Triskavanski

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« Reply #256 on: <06-04-15/1624:17> »
Yeah, deckers are highly flexible on the net, technos less so. Even if the program echo was changed to work a but better than that for the techno
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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jack0byte

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« Reply #257 on: <06-04-15/2107:31> »
Aye, its understandable a lot of people are annoyed at the whole skin link thing. Mostly because its so big a thing to form the direct connection, and you know there will be an augment for it too.

I agree that whole Mathmatical thing should have been something else.. Unless you know, there was some technomancer stuff to work with it. Like a technomancer fighting style that uses mathmatics. But I have to ask.. Why in the world does not a single Echo expand with submersion grade? Why is it so often nothing more than a small stat increase?


Also, I want to note that I believe you can put an agent on a commlink now. Could be useful.

Understand that i cannot go back and rewrite the core mechanics of TMs. What they are is what we have to work with. I didn't write the complex forms or echoes in Data Trails so i'm in the same boat as you.

Skinlink was an echo in 4E and it's an echo in 5E. It's done and i can't go back and change it, so asking for it over and over again will not make that happen.

MMRI will obviously need to be fixed because it's a reprint. I don't know if the writer just didn't know that was already an echo or if something got jacked in editing. I'll ask him about that and Mathemagics (because i have no idea what it's supposed to be for either).

As far as echoes not being tied to Submergence grade, i don't know why that has been the case so far, but i have several planned that will be tied to submergence grade.

I am considering something similar to sidebar in Unwired that contained the "alternate" technomancer rule. That gets secondary priority though. I am looking to address the Fading issue and bring back/update some of the more interesting echoes from 4E.

Streams and Paragons are also top of the list priority. It ain't right that every character has to be a techno-adept.

Hi sorry for the late reply please don't take this a criticism and feel free to tell me if this wouldn't work but in the techno book would it be possible  for there to be a Quality to receive one of a set list of echos (Skinlink  MMRI any thing else that wouldn't brake the game) the only way I can think of that would get round the problem with out having to change whats already been written


firebug

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« Reply #258 on: <06-05-15/1109:19> »
Herr Brackhaus and Top Dog, you guys nailed what I meant, yeah.  I look forward to seeing one of my players start the game with a deck with 14 Sleaze, along with a LOG of at least 8, and be unable to be found by anyone.

I realized of the threads about TMs and Data Trails, this would fit in best here.  It's rundown of a large number of the cyberprograms and how I feel about them in relation to the decker/technomancer dichotomy.

  • Baby Monitor:  This is how it should be.  This is a program that has a specific, useful utility function.  What is good is that you can check your OS without it, but it's easier and better to have the program.  It doesn't unlock a function for you, it improves upon it.  This is what all the cyberprograms should be like.
  • Biofeedback:  And here we have, already, exactly how they should not be.  Biofeedback is a basic part of the matrix!  It's in every edition, and it's why the matrix is supposed to be so damn dangerous.  This program is a direct feature (being able to do real damage) that should be a basic part of matrix-going, but TM oddly cannot do on their own.  Why isn't there a Complex Form that does biofeedback?  I mean really guys.  Maybe Resonance Spike wouldn't be such shit if it at least was physically painful.
  • Blackout:  Same as above.
  • Fork: Jesus christ is this powerful.  This is one of the only ones worth actually taking Resonance Program for.  Should this be something all TMs can just do?  Hell no!  But I mention this as an example of another problem I have with cyberprograms--  Wildly varying power levels.  I have never seen a decker not use this multiple times in every run.
  • Lockdown:  Being link-locked is another basic matrix function, I feel.  This is clearly a utility program--  It's not something a TM should have to pay a submersion for.  Especially when, if they have their heart set on Resonance Program, Fork and Signal Scrubber are available.  But if you waited until you had those...  Would this be worth 19 Karma?  No!  It's not even worth 13.
  • Sneak:  Doing it right again.  This is a good program that doesn't add a new function, but instead offers a potent defense against something most people try to avoid entirely.  Another one I could see Resonance Program maybe getting...  But that's grasping for straws.  I'd like to see an Echo that, along with something else, included the inability to be pin-pointed in meatspace as easily.  It fits the nature of TMs.
  • Wrapper:  Another new function.  Arguably this can be done with that...  Weird "resonance illusion" Complex Form, but that CF is so vaguely worded that it's impossible to say what it's meant to accomplish.  You could argue that this isn't really a new function, and just alters "Change Icon" an amount, but that's not really the case.  Change Icon is almost entirely flavor--  I can make my Persona an angry moose but that doesn't mean people would think it's a moose's icon.  Wrapper allows you to actually make the matrix read the icon as a different kind of device.
  • Cat's Paw:  New functions!  I have never had a player who didn't ask if they could do this somehow.  It's also a basic thing.  I don't understand why a special program is the only way to upload a bunch of spam and AR graphics as an attack.  I might houserule this to be something that can just always be done instead of a normal Data Spike.  I mean, Crash Program is its own action instead of Data Spike, and you can Spoof Command or Control Device something to do literally anything it's capable of...  If you can Spoof Command glasses to say, tint everything green, or turn someone's Commlink language to Swahili, then Cat's Paw shouldn't be a specific cyberprogram.
  • Evaluate:  You mean this isn't just an ap you can download?  Why?  Why is this minor thing a cyberdeck only function?  Why can't I just have something like the "Gizoogle Black" app on my commlink that will do the same thing?  This is something technically illegal, sure, but...
  • Fly on a Wall:  Taking a break to say I think this one is great.  It is a great way for hackers to still be capable of long-term spying without it being exactly the same as the way TMs can.
  • Hitchiker: You actually have to get this as a TM if you want to do a Deep Run as the team's matrix specialist.  This annoys me.  It really annoys me.  Wanna experience the new full-party Matrix runs!  Deckers, only less money than you spend on energy drinks a month.  Technomancers, better get ready to meditate and reach a new level of enlightenment!
  • Tantrum:  Like Cat's Paw, it's not something that should need its own program to do.  It's just being tricky with hacking.
« Last Edit: <06-05-15/1146:33> by firebug »
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ShadowMaster

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« Reply #259 on: <06-05-15/1809:27> »
Programs should have been left as part of threading instead they removed threading of programs and make them only accessible through submersion.
I miss having Smartlink as a TM.

firebug

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« Reply #260 on: <06-06-15/1447:39> »
Sleepwalker kind of bothers me.  The Echo, where it lets you take Perception-Based Free Actions.  It's...  An incredibly minor ability, and I would have preferred it be Simple Actions so you can at least make Observe in Detail actions to find out what the hell something is.  As is, while it can do something like "you hear someone and feel your body move", you can accomplish this with, say...  A camera and/or a motion detector on your person.  This is once again so not worth a Submersion.  What the shit guys...!

I was hoping it'd be like the one echo from 4e.  What was it?  "Multiprocessor"?  Where you can make a single Matrix-based Observe in Detail type action once a turn?  Something like that.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Darzil

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« Reply #261 on: <06-07-15/0846:35> »
  • Fork: Jesus christ is this powerful.  This is one of the only ones worth actually taking Resonance Program for.  Should this be something all TMs can just do?  Hell no!  But I mention this as an example of another problem I have with cyberprograms--  Wildly varying power levels.  I have never seen a decker not use this multiple times in every run.
I haven't used it at all, but only because it just seemed so broken and I didn't feel like taking the piss. I'd be ok with it if you split the dice pool like multiple combat attacks, though.

Triskavanski

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« Reply #262 on: <06-08-15/0139:20> »
Aye, its understandable a lot of people are annoyed at the whole skin link thing. Mostly because its so big a thing to form the direct connection, and you know there will be an augment for it too.

I agree that whole Mathmatical thing should have been something else.. Unless you know, there was some technomancer stuff to work with it. Like a technomancer fighting style that uses mathmatics. But I have to ask.. Why in the world does not a single Echo expand with submersion grade? Why is it so often nothing more than a small stat increase?


Also, I want to note that I believe you can put an agent on a commlink now. Could be useful.

Understand that i cannot go back and rewrite the core mechanics of TMs. What they are is what we have to work with. I didn't write the complex forms or echoes in Data Trails so i'm in the same boat as you.

Skinlink was an echo in 4E and it's an echo in 5E. It's done and i can't go back and change it, so asking for it over and over again will not make that happen.

MMRI will obviously need to be fixed because it's a reprint. I don't know if the writer just didn't know that was already an echo or if something got jacked in editing. I'll ask him about that and Mathemagics (because i have no idea what it's supposed to be for either).

As far as echoes not being tied to Submergence grade, i don't know why that has been the case so far, but i have several planned that will be tied to submergence grade.

I am considering something similar to sidebar in Unwired that contained the "alternate" technomancer rule. That gets secondary priority though. I am looking to address the Fading issue and bring back/update some of the more interesting echoes from 4E.

Streams and Paragons are also top of the list priority. It ain't right that every character has to be a techno-adept.

Oh of course. Its never really just a call for you to go and fix all our woes, but rather whoever would be actually the one who would be involved in actually changing and erratting stuff.

Which makes me think, possibly a reason why Errata  seems to be so slow for the somethings. Could it be because of some sort of legal mumbo jumbo stuff that is really out of both the freelancers and catalysts control but is stuck somewhere in the Organization of governmental bureaucracy organization of red tape? I've heard some horror stories before about companies being forced by some governmental groups to sue the fans in order to keep a hold of their licenses because the fan was making stuff for the game for free, and the government figured if you're letting this one person do it, everyone should have your thing now.



I'm still in the boat that Mathemagics could be great if it had things to go with it, that allowed a Technomancer to kill people with their brain. I know Encryption and Decryption are somethings that were in 4th as some sort of program thingies now. But looking at it from a non-4e mechanics view.. Mathematics is pretty big in creating ciphers. Alan Turning for example broke the enigma with his extensive knowledge of math. So cause I wasn't looking at it through the definition of encryption/decryption as being 4e related actions, I saw it more as being something tied a little more to Analytical mind.

Which reminded me of two things. Gun Kata and A scene in firefly where River Song mumbles out some mathematical equations to taking out her foes. This leads to me thinking of somehow getting a new defense quality, like acrobatic defender, but for something Mathematical. Or other ways of using a fighting style based around calculating numbers.

I dunno though, I can't really get too far in it myself.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Miri

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« Reply #263 on: <06-08-15/0444:28> »
Which reminded me of two things. Gun Kata and A scene in firefly where River Song mumbles out some mathematical equations to taking out her foes. This leads to me thinking of somehow getting a new defense quality, like acrobatic defender, but for something Mathematical. Or other ways of using a fighting style based around calculating numbers.

I dunno though, I can't really get too far in it myself.

Uhh.. thats River Tam.. River Song is from Dr Who.  ;D

Triskavanski

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« Reply #264 on: <06-08-15/1226:01> »
Well uh... somethin somthing clever and witty about rivers.

I got nothin
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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ScytheKnight

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« Reply #265 on: <06-09-15/0041:29> »
Sorry, gaffs like that tend to wash away witty responses.
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Bull

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« Reply #266 on: <06-10-15/0117:44> »
Wait, since when is riggers being able to hack a massive change? They did so just fine in 4th Edition, and as mentioned by others,

SR4 was the exception, not teh rule.  Every other edition, they couldn't.

And, you guys keep pointing out that the the Street Sam and Mage can ghetto-hack with a commlink and...  Sleazing and hacking extension.  A widget.  A gizmo.  A doodad.  I will refer to it as anything BUT a fraggin' Dongle.  So if you want your rigger to do the same, get yourself a commlink too.  Not like they're all that expensive.

But for the record "Acts as a..." and "Is a..." are separate things.

JackVII

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« Reply #267 on: <06-10-15/0923:53> »
And, you guys keep pointing out that the the Street Sam and Mage can ghetto-hack with a commlink and...  Sleazing and hacking extension.  A widget.  A gizmo.  A doodad.  I will refer to it as anything BUT a fraggin' Dongle.  So if you want your rigger to do the same, get yourself a commlink too.  Not like they're all that expensive.

But for the record "Acts as a..." and "Is a..." are separate things.
I've pretty much moved past the dongle thing. High rating dongles are expensive. You can replicate the feat easily enough with a reasonably high end RCC, an add Matrix Attribute mod, an Increase Matrix Attribute mod, and the Smoke and Mirrors program. Since you're probably already investing in the RCC in the first place, the cost to do it is significantly lower than a dongle.

Yay, hacking riggers again! Just have to put some points in the hacking skill.
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #268 on: <06-10-15/1052:50> »
Nice going, JackVII. That takes care of the problem with dongles if you have to play by RAW.

ShadowMaster

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« Reply #269 on: <06-10-15/1503:08> »
A sidebar with an optional rule for Resonance [Program] would be nice.
Two suggestions that come to mind are,
Each time you take it you open up a program slot to put any program.
or take it once and you have a number of program slots equal to your submersion grade.
I'm using the later as a house rule.