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Using Edge Clarification needed

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Archivist

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« on: <11-13-10/1528:53> »
SR4a page Spending Edge, 3rd bullet point:
"You may reroll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit"

Part 1:
My interpretation is that this means you must have zero hits on a test.  You may spend Edge and reroll them.

Some others are taking this to mean you can have some hits and then use edge to reroll the misses.  For example, rolled 10 dice and got 3 hits.  Spend Edge to re-roll the 7 dice that missed.  To me this would negate the whole point of the second bullet point for how to use Edge after a test has already been rolled.

Thank you

AJBuwalda

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« Reply #1 on: <11-13-10/1655:13> »
You may reroll the misses, simple as that. How would this negate bullet point two?
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Walks Through Walls

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« Reply #2 on: <11-13-10/1706:52> »
Archivist the others are right. You get to reroll any dice that didn't achieve a hit. You can have hit with all but one die and reroll it if you are so inclined.
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Chaemera

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« Reply #3 on: <11-13-10/1708:52> »
This calls for. . . . Grammar!

I'm not picking on you, but that's what it boils down to, "how is the sentence structured?".

"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."

Do dice score hits, or do tests score hits?

Well, the great book says:

Quote from:  SR4A, pg. 62, Target Number and Hits
Unlike other games, when you roll the dice in Shadowrun, you do not add them together. Instead, you compare each individual to the standard target number of 5. This target number never changes. Each die that is equal to or greater than 5 is considered a hit. In other words, any die that rolls a 5 or 6 is a hit. The more dice that score hits, the better the result. Players should count the number of hits they score on each test and tell the gamemaster.

So the dice score hits. Regardless of the number of hits on the test, you spend edge and re-roll those dice that did not score a hit to get more hits on the test.
Consider the following examples:

Sammie the Samurai rolls a DP of 10 dice, scoring 2 hits, and rolling 6 ones.

Sammie could do any of the following to improve her luck:
* Spend edge to roll her Edge Dice (let's say it's 3), with the rule of 6 for those dice. This gives her an average of slightly more than 1 extra hit. And she still glitches.
* Spend edge to negate the glitch.
* Spend edge to re-roll all 8 dice that missed, with an average of over 2 hits AND negating the glitch unless she manages to roll 5+ ones again.

Here, it looks like you're right, that first option looks pretty weak.

So what about the following:

Sammie the Samurai rolls DP 6, threshold 4, gets 3 hits, no glitch. She only needs 1 more hit to succeed at the test, so which is better now?
* Spend edge to roll Edge Dice (3 again), with the rule of 6 for those dice.
* Spend edge to re-roll the 3 dice that missed, no rule of six.

If anything, the re-roll dice that didn't hit option really messes with the "negate a glitch or critical glitch" effect.

For those wanting to look at the book, all uses of edge presented came from the section Spending Edge, Page 74, SR4A.
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Critias

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« Reply #4 on: <11-13-10/1721:29> »
You are, as others have said, mistaken.  It is admittedly a pretty awkward sentence, as written, however.  The rule is that you may reroll any dice that weren't hits.  Bullet Point 3 is best to think of as a "woah crap" moment, when you've got a real expert at whatever it is he's trying to do, but probability just lets you down.  BP3 is for the Slick Elven Gunslinger who rolls 20+ dice to shoot the bad guy, and manages to get not a single 5 or 6 on the whole lot of them. 

To me this would negate the whole point of the second bullet point for how to use Edge after a test has already been rolled.
On the surface, you are correct.  Both of them let you use Edge after a test, and at a glance that means they might be kind of similar.  If you look a little deeper, though, they're actually quite different.

Bullet Point 2 (or BP2 from here on out, the "roll extra dice equal to your full Edge, add hits, and get rule of 6 on those Edge dice") is for guys with a good Edge score in comparison to their actual die pool.  Guys that might not be terrific at a job, but do have a pretty good Edge, will benefit here.  BP2 isn't terribly similar to BP3, discussed above, despite the fact both of them get declared after a roll.  It's best looked at as an alternative to BP1.

BP1 is for Edge guys, again, who have a low-to-middling pool, but lots of Edge to make that not matter.  BP1 lets you add your whole Edge attribute to a test, and gives you the Rule of 6 on every single die.

BP2 is a safety net for Edge monkeys, particularly Edge monkeys who should've known better and spend the Edge before the roll.  BP3 is a safety net for everyone else, who just got a crappy roll.

Archivist

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« Reply #5 on: <11-13-10/1724:23> »
Thanks for the quick replies!  Yes, I was reading that statement to mean that there were no hits scored for the test.  Thanks for the clarification about dice and hits.  Exactly what I needed.

Critias

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« Reply #6 on: <11-13-10/1852:28> »
It's something that's come up before.  It really is a pretty strangely formatted sentence, even if officially correct.  I imagine experts in Constitutional Law wouldn't have any problem interpreting it, since they're used to stuff written a little "sideways" like that, but for everyone else, it's a question that pops up every once in a while.   ;D

Chaemera

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« Reply #7 on: <11-13-10/1855:55> »
I have to interpret NAVSEA 08K GFE (Government Furnished Equipment) Technical Manuals everyday in order to write procedures for the construction of the systems the GFE is used in. Sadly, the sentences we see in SR4A & the Constitution are pretty simple in comparison.
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AJBuwalda

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« Reply #8 on: <11-13-10/2002:25> »
I have to interpret NAVSEA 08K GFE (Government Furnished Equipment) Technical Manuals everyday in order to write procedures for the construction of the systems the GFE is used in. Sadly, the sentences we see in SR4A & the Constitution are pretty simple in comparison.
I envy you not, my friend ;D
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Chaemera

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« Reply #9 on: <11-13-10/2014:16> »
Yeah. . . manuals written by committee. . . a committee made up of non-engineers, non-technicians, non-navy bureaucrats. . . It ain't fun.

Wait, where was this thread going again. . . /derail.
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