Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Artillarist on <07-08-14/2212:08>
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So my basic question is what metamagics are "mystic adepts" NOT allowed to have.
In the Street Grimoire's "magicians way" section I came across the following:
Unlike their physical counterparts, mystic adepts following
this Way have access to all non-adept metamagic
abilities for which they meet the prerequisites.
I have seen nowhere where it is written that there are metamagics a mystic adept CAN'T take. In the SR5 source book it has a whole sidebar apologizing for only 4 of them being of any use to the adept and promising more in future books. I assumed even without the "magicians way" if I learned say shielding through initiation (a basic metamagic from the sourcebook) if there were other metamagics out there that had Shielding as a pre-req I could get it. Is there something in the books I'm missing that states Mystic adepts can only ever take base level metamagics? Are things like the "high arts" in the street grimoire not available to mystic adepts and only aspected magicians". If someone has a grasp on this topic would appreciate the help.
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It's a bit weird: the rules speak about how you must have "initiated into this school of magic" to unlock a magic art's rituals, enhancements, enchantments and metamagics, but unlike with adepts, who need to have the corresponding Way's Positive Quality in order to unlock enhancements and metamagics,
there don't seem to be any crunch rules on how to do that.
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Physical Adepts who have chosen not to follow a way, are limited to the Undecided Way of Metamagics and Rituals. (SG p156)
Mystical Adepts have the option to choose to initiate into any of the Arts like other magicians.
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They don't, though, or at least they don't now.
I did the same double take. There was absolutely nothing in the main rulebook to make you think mystic adepts couldn't normally take masking, etc.
But here it is, the 20 pt quality (after paying for power points! So it's really going to be 40 pts post char-gen) yelling MAs they better take it or no masking, etc.
Very backward way to insert a rule.
Not that any MAs going to take anything but more power points, though.
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They don't, though, or at least they don't now.
Did you even read Giabralter's post? He explains is pretty simply. If you're an Undecided Way physical adept, you are limited to the physical adept metamagics listed (which are the same as in the core book, plus two new ones). If you're a mystic adept, you can take any of the metamagics that a full mage can take, plus those of the Undecided Way physical adept.
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How about we stop starting every comment with idea that I don't know how to read, OK? We'll get along better.
SG, pg 178
Unlike their physical counterparts, mystic adepts following this Way have access to all non-adept metamagic abilities for which they meet the prerequisites.
That seems to be saying anyone following a different way, which would include Undecided, can't use non-adept metamagics, meaning things like Shielding, Quickening, etc. (Masking was actually a bad example, since Adepts can take Masking) So as an MA, you have to take Magician's way or you can't take most of the normal metamagics full magicians can.
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I had to re-read this several times and the fluff section.
It's the physical counterparts that follow this Way that do not have access to the non-adept metamagic abilities. Meaning that an Adept cannot become a mystic adept simply by choosing the Way of the Magician.
A Physical Adept can still follow the Way of the Magician and have access to the enhancements and metamagics provided by the Way.
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How about we stop starting every comment with idea that I don't know how to read, OK? We'll get along better.
First, I don't think either of us is interested in getting along better. Second, if you'd read Giabralter's explanation, it would have made sense to you. Third, you should probably apologize to Giabralter, as he's one of the people you said should "be ashamed" of the Street Grimoire.
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It's the physical counterparts that follow this Way that do not have access to the non-adept metamagic abilities. Meaning that an Adept cannot become a mystic adept simply by choosing the Way of the Magician.
A Physical Adept can still follow the Way of the Magician and have access to the enhancements and metamagics provided by the Way.
To be fair though, there are no metamagics that can't be taken by adepts. At least I didn't find any with a prerequisite "(Magician only)", but there are several "(Adept only)" metamagics.
So this statement in the quality is useless and unnecessarily confusing.
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How about we stop starting every comment with idea that I don't know how to read, OK? We'll get along better.
First, I don't think either of us is interested in getting along better. Second, if you'd read Giabralter's explanation, it would have made sense to you. Third, you should probably apologize to Giabralter, as he's one of the people you said should "be ashamed" of the Street Grimoire.
Look dude, I'm just not responding to you anymore on this stuff. All you do is lie about what I said, and then proceed to argue with the things I didn't say. It started out unnecessarily adversarial, now it's just getting weird. Like ex-gf stalker weird.
I had to re-read this several times and the fluff section.
It's the physical counterparts that follow this Way that do not have access to the non-adept metamagic abilities. Meaning that an Adept cannot become a mystic adept simply by choosing the Way of the Magician.
A Physical Adept can still follow the Way of the Magician and have access to the enhancements and metamagics provided by the Way.
That may be what is intended, but I don't think that's what it says. Not that it's a very clear sentence, in any case. As Lucean pointed out, why would you need to say that a regular Adept can't take the other metamagics? I think the main book actually prohibits Adepts from taking anything but for a few specific metamagics (to be expanded in SG), but they don't fit the prereqs anyway (mostly, knowing sorcery).
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I think the main book actually prohibits Adepts from taking anything but for a few specific metamagics
Some metamagics are for adepts only, and some are pretty useless to adepts.
Not exactly ...
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[...]why would you need to say that a regular Adept can't take the other metamagics?
Because sometimes repetition and explication are good principles of rules organization?
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[...]why would you need to say that a regular Adept can't take the other metamagics?
Because sometimes repetition and explication are good principles of rules organization?
Let's not speak of good rules organization and the Street Grimoire.
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I had to re-read this several times and the fluff section.
It's the physical counterparts that follow this Way that do not have access to the non-adept metamagic abilities. Meaning that an Adept cannot become a mystic adept simply by choosing the Way of the Magician.
A Physical Adept can still follow the Way of the Magician and have access to the enhancements and metamagics provided by the Way.
So here's the thing: there's a contradiction on page 139. The regular text says this:
When a magician first initiates into the art, he learns one available ritual, enchantment, or metamagic for free, barring any prerequisites. A magician can learn additional advanced rituals and enchantments within that category by spending the same amount of time and Karma that would be required to initiate to his or her current initiate grade (p. 325, SR5). For each new metamagical technique, however, the magician will need to initiate to the next grade to gain that new metamagic.
However, the sidebar says this:
RITUALS
(...) They cost the same amount of Karma and time to learn as other rituals (5 Karma, see p. 299, SR5); no additional initiation grade is needed.
ENCHANTING
(...) They cost the normal amount of Karma and time to learn (5 Karma, see p. 299, SR5).
So just to double-check, let me see if I get this correctly:
- Magicians and mystic adepts can initiate into a school of magic, allowing them to obtain its special rituals, metamagics, and enchantments
- Assumption: initiating into a school requires you to dedicate an Initiation to it (since the regular text learning extra rituals and enchantments requires paying Karma dependant on your current initiate grade).
- Assumption: For most schools, this basically means you pick a specific metamagic from that school (the one that's listed as a prerequisite) as your metamagic for that Initiation
- Uncertainty: Geomancy, Necromancy, Divination and Invocation don't have any metamagics, instead listing a ritual you get first - does this replace the metamagic you normally get when you Initiate, as all metamagics belong to schools now, and Invocation spefically mentions the familiar ordeal, which is part of Initiating? Or can you dedicate an Initiation to one of these schools and another school at the same time? Or do the sidebar rules apply, meaning you don't actually spend an Initiation to join these schools, instead spending 5 Karma to learn the required first ritual (with the Invocation exception explained away by "if you have a familiar, that puts you in the advanced class, so you need to learn Ally Conjuration to qualify instead of Summon Great Form Spirit")?
- Assumption: the Advanced Alchemy, Advanced Ritual Spellcasting, and Advanced Spellcasting can be initiated into by picking either of their two metamagics, as no "first" is mentioned.
- Physical adepts and mystic adepts can choose a Way by paying Karma for the corresponding Positive Quality. This unlocks that Way's Enhancements (either 2 Karma or 10+3x[current grade] Karma) and Metamagics (can be picked at Initiation).
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Look dude, I'm just not responding to you anymore on this stuff. All you do is lie about what I said, and then proceed to argue with the things I didn't say. It started out unnecessarily adversarial, now it's just getting weird. Like ex-gf stalker weird.
This is the third time you've stated you aren't going to respond to me anymore. I am thinking you don't know how to use the ignore function. First, hover over the "Profile" button at the top of the screen and select "Forum Profile". Then hover over "Modify Profile", and hover over "Buddies/Ignore List". Finally, select "Edit Ignore List..."
To the point though, as weird as this feels to you, I've respected your request for no more PMs. Unlike what you did to certain forum members. I suppose now you know what it felt like for that member to be annoyed by you. Anyway, now you know how to ignore me. Enjoy. :P
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Regular text is missing the correction done for the sidebars. The sidebars are correct. No additional initiation grade is needed
Rituals
They cost the same amount of Karma and time to learn as other rituals (5 Karma, see p. 299, SR5).
Enchanting
They cost the normal amount of Karma and time to learn (5 Karma, see p. 299, SR5)
Enhancement
The cost in Karma and time is the same as learning a new skill (2 Karma, 1 day).
Magicians and Mystic Adepts initiate into an Art. Consider an Art as a wrapper around what was just described as a metamagic in the core book.
I'll just edit your list:
- Magicians and mystic adepts can initiate into a school of magic, allowing them to obtain its special rituals, metamagics, and enchantments
- Initiating into a school requires you to dedicate an Initiation to it (since the regular text learning extra rituals and enchantments requires paying Karma dependent on your current initiate grade).
- For most schools, this basically means you pick a specific metamagic from that school (the one that's listed as a prerequisite) as your metamagic for that Initiation. Characters can further initiate to gain additional metamagics within that school if they have picked up the prerequisite metamagic.
- Arts such as Geomancy, Necromancy, Divination and Invocation don't have any metamagics (Yet), instead the initiate can choose from any of the rituals/enchantments listed instead. Additional rituals/enchantments are purchased at the normal purchasing cost
- Arts such as Advanced Alchemy, Advanced Ritual Spellcasting, and Advanced Spellcasting list several metamagics with no prerequisite requirements. This means that when they first initiate they can choose either metamagics..
- Physical adepts and mystic adepts can choose a Way by paying Karma for the corresponding Positive Quality. This allows them to initiate in that Way to gain metamagics within that way. This also unlocks that Way's Enhancements (2 Karma).
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Due to personal insults being thrown back and forth, this thread has been locked. Warnings and bannings to come.