Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: The Crippled Decker on <02-11-19/1806:02>
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One of my players, a Rigger, was looking through the Rigger 5.0 book and was confused at some of the modifications. He tried asking me and when I was looking though I was just as confused.
He was wondering what the difference between, the Universal Mirror Material and the Faraday Cage was. Since they both do the same thing on different scales, he was wondering what one should he do to protect the car and his stuff.
He also questioned about fule upgrades like Multifuel Engine, Suncell, and Gridlink Overdrive did. I know that it saves fuel, but is something like that GM dependent? Because if it is, I'll tell him it doesn't matter since I handwave stuff like fule away
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Not my normal style, but I'll give it a shot.
Gridink Override allows your vehicle to use energy from the Gridlink system, without the dangers of someone in Gridlink controlling your vehicle.
Suncell and Multifuel Engine are for those cases where Gridlink is not available.
Suncell absorbs sunlight to charge an auxiliary battery.
Multifuel Engine can take almost any raw material and convert it into energy.
No clue about Faraday Cage or Universal Mirror Material.
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The first thing that's important to realize is there's two separate modification systems presented in R5.0.
The Drone modding rules on pgs 122-128 are technically optional. You can ignore them entirely and just use the vehicle modding rules on pgs 151-171. I'd caution doing so however. Despite being optional, the game presumes you're using the optional Drone modding rules. If you don't use them, drone balance goes out the window.
Universal Mirror Material vs Faraday Cage: They both protect the vehicle, but they protect it against different things. UMM is a Special Armor Modification (R5 pg 159) and as such it adds its rating to the armor value vs one single damage type. (I can't find what UMM gives additional soak dice for, but I'd have to assume laser weapons). OTOH, Electromagnetic Shielding (aka Faraday Cage) is another type of modification entirely- it gives no additional soak dice vs damage. What it does is defined on pg 231 of SR5: It flat out stops Matrix Actions. While that's handy in protecting yourself against hostile hackers, it also sucks because NOONE can perform matrix actions inside or upon your vehicle. (remember, jumping in or remote controlling the vehicle are both matrix actions and therefore you can't do it) It's got niche applicability, but if being hack-proof is that important to you, that's what you can get. Honestly, if you're afraid of hackers you should just Run Silent or in extreme cases turn wireless off completely (again, you can't use matrix actions on the vehicle while wireless is off completely but at least you can turn wireless back on after the hacker's been dealt with).
Fuel: It is important as the plot says it is. In SR5 everything is presumed to be fully electric (or at least hybrid electric) unless specified otherwise. Vehicles routinely draw power from Gridlink as they travel (basically like trolley cars). So unless the mission takes you into the wilds or barrens, fuel is freely and constantly available. The GM decides how long/far a vehicle or drone can go without being powered by GridLink.
Gridlink override: Gridlink is awesome. Unlimited power, constant traffic updates, hell your car will even drive itself with virtually perfect safety. However, the cops can track and even shut your car down thru Gridlink. You probably don't like that. So with a Gridlink override you don't have to decide whether or not to disable your vehicle's Gridlink! Draw all the free power and data updates, and enjoy none of the tracking or shutting down of your vehicle!
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Universal Mirror Material is a fabric and as such it is an upgrade to worn armor. You can't install it on a vehicle. It provides a Noise penalty to anything concealed inside the worn armor. That means any Matrix actions targeting those items are a bit more difficult, but not impossible, and this Noise can be overcome with the right equipment. A Faraday cage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage), on the other hand, blocks electromagnetic signals entirely; there is no hacking something inside a Faraday cage when you're on the outside. No ifs. No ands. No buts. When installed in a vehicle, a wire can be run through the cage so that some features or systems can penetrate the cage, effectively allowing it to be selective. It is an excellent option for the properly paranoid.
Now as for fuel and whatnot.....in day to day life, Gridlink is enough to never have to worry about fuel. On runs, 99% of the time Gridlink and Gridlink Override is enough to never have to worry about fuel. You'll have unlimited mileage in the city, and your tank is large enough to handle runs out in the barrens. However, if you don't prepare for it, that 1% can bend you over, pull your pants down and you get the idea. So while Improved Economy, Multifuel Engine and Suncell are not necessary modifications, I would strongly recommend having at least one of them, Suncell in particular since it doesn't take up Power Train slots.
Overall, a rigger needs to pick their modifications carefully, thinking about what's going to be useful in pretty much every run, what's going to be useful in less common cases, and what is going to save your ass when shit hits the fan. I could give examples, but it would be pretty much just me listing the modifications on my Ares Roadmaster and explaining why I got them.
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Ah yes Universal Mirror Material is defined in RG pg 84.
Still, R5.0 allows it (without defining it) per pg 159.
Personally, I'd just rely on the rules for turning Wireless Off (pg. 421, SR5) if you need protection from being hacked. It's free, and you can just as easily un-do it to restore your full capabilities with the vehicle when the hazard's passed.
As a GM, I'd rule that leaving wireless off on a vehicle or drone is a traffic safety hazard on par with driving at night without your headlights on. Sure if you have thermographic you might not need your headlights... but the Po Po are STILL gonna pull you over eventually for being a menace to everyone else on the road. Same thing if your car isn't communicating with the Matrix... so going "hackerproof" should be something you only do temporarily.
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Is driving with Wireless off really that dangerous?
I mean, we have cars testing self driving today around town & I pass them all the time.
If your manually driving your manually driving, and they still have to have distance/visions sensors to tell them that its not clear to change lanes right?
Its not like grid link does EVERYTHING for them right?
Again, I'm assuming Gridlink is a bonus/addition to the pilot skill/system of the car which can still drive itself if it had too.
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It's not that it's dangerous to you... as I said if you have great thermographic vision you don't need headlights at all. But if you don't turn your headlights on at night, despite you being fine you're not visible to other drivers.
"Everything" is supposed to be wireless in 2080. If you're not on the matrix your car isn't broadcasting its location, speed, etc to Gridlink. Gridlink thinks the space you're in is vacant, and directs cars around you accordingly... If you make your 2000kgs of plastic and metal invisible to passive sensors, yeah that's gonna get your ass pulled over...
Sure, the cars around you might have active sensors that detect you at the stop light and stop the car before gridlink drives them right into you. But removing that layer of safety is absolutely something that'd be illegal in any 'civilized' municpality (i.e. anywhere with working Gridlink...)
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Personally, I'd just rely on the rules for turning Wireless Off (pg. 421, SR5) if you need protection from being hacked. It's free, and you can just as easily un-do it to restore your full capabilities with the vehicle when the hazard's passed.
You're not thinking about this thoroughly enough. Turning off wireless means diddly-squat when you have a MacGuffin constantly broadcasting a signal, a wageslave with an implanted commlink, a CEO with a commlink up their nose (thanks, Kill Code), a G-man with an implanted cyberdeck, an unfriendly technomancer, tracking tags, a teammate prone to forgetting to go wireless when he needs to, etc. A Faraday cage grants absolute control over the signals coming in and out of a vehicle, allowing you to slowly extend your middle finger to circumstances and variables that might otherwise ruin your day.
As a GM, I'd rule that leaving wireless off on a vehicle or drone is a traffic safety hazard on par with driving at night without your headlights on. Sure if you have thermographic you might not need your headlights... but the Po Po are STILL gonna pull you over eventually for being a menace to everyone else on the road. Same thing if your car isn't communicating with the Matrix... so going "hackerproof" should be something you only do temporarily.
It's not that it's dangerous to you... as I said if you have great thermographic vision you don't need headlights at all. But if you don't turn your headlights on at night, despite you being fine you're not visible to other drivers.
"Everything" is supposed to be wireless in 2080. If you're not on the matrix your car isn't broadcasting its location, speed, etc to Gridlink. Gridlink thinks the space you're in is vacant, and directs cars around you accordingly... If you make your 2000kgs of plastic and metal invisible to passive sensors, yeah that's gonna get your ass pulled over...
Sure, the cars around you might have active sensors that detect you at the stop light and stop the car before gridlink drives them right into you. But removing that layer of safety is absolutely something that'd be illegal in any 'civilized' municpality (i.e. anywhere with working Gridlink...)
I disagree. If Gridlink had no ability to detect things that weren't wireless, then it would have no way of dealing with people or animals that wander onto the street, vehicle wreckage too damaged to broadcast a signal, throwback vehicles and any large inanimate object that happens to fall onto the road. Furthermore, if driving a vehicle with the wireless off was illegal, then throwback vehicles would be double illegal, yet we see nothing to suggest that this is the case.
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Turning off wireless means diddly-squat when you have a MacGuffin constantly broadcasting a signal...
True. I wasn't saying EM Shielding was a waste of money; it absolutely has its uses above and beyond simply turning your car's wireless off.
I was saying that if your concern is making your car hackerproof*, then turning your car's wireless off is the option that's free, costs no mod points, and is easily reversible.
*yeah yeah Data Taps are a thing. But if someone has access opportunity to plant a Data Tap, EM shielding probably won't protect either.
If Gridlink had no ability to detect things that weren't wireless, then it would have no way of dealing with people or animals that wander onto the street, vehicle wreckage too damaged to broadcast a signal, throwback vehicles and any large inanimate object that happens to fall onto the road.
I think we're talking about two different things. I wasn't saying that if you turn your wireless off you'd BE hit by cars that can't see you. I was saying doing so would be violating modern traffic laws.
They're absolutely related but not at all the same thing. Even if your car had a malfunction and it was cut off from the Matrix, presumably everything else moving on the road should be able to adapt. "Should be able" is the operative phrase. Taking away a redundant layer of traffic safety shouldn't result in a crash, but it will do so when (for whatever reason) the remaining redundant layers are also absent. If the car coming up on the intersection has faulty sensors and you're off grid, it's both your faults when you get wiped out in a T-Bone collision.
Think about why Cops pull people over for having broken brake lights. Other drivers should be paying attention and not need to be alerted that you're braking, right? They should be maintaining a safe following distance and be able to visually tell you're slowing down in time to safely avoid hitting you. But despite that, you bet your ass you'll be pulled over eventually for having broken lights anyway.
Furthermore, if driving a vehicle with the wireless off was illegal, then throwback vehicles would be double illegal, yet we see nothing to suggest that this is the case.
I get what you're saying, but it's a questionable argument. Guns can be legally owned as well, but yet it's still illegal to shoot people with them. The way I see it, you can own a 20th century car with no Wireless, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's "street legal" in 2080.
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I vaguely remember that GridGuide not knowing you are there and routing traffic through your space was mentiones on a book.
Or am I wrong?
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True. I wasn't saying EM Shielding was a waste of money; it absolutely has its uses above and beyond simply turning your car's wireless off.
I was saying that if your concern is making your car hackerproof*, then turning your car's wireless off is the option that's free, costs no mod points, and is easily reversible.
*yeah yeah Data Taps are a thing. But if someone has access opportunity to plant a Data Tap, EM shielding probably won't protect either.[Quote/]
What about making everything inside the car hackerproof?
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It's a free action to go fully wireless off. You can do it with your car, and your team can do it with their everything.
But sure, maybe you are transporting an extractee or a macguffin and you have no signal scanners or hackers, and you're worried your cargo could be broadcasting a tracking signal. At times like that an EM shielded space is very valuable indeed.
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Turning off wireless means diddly-squat when you have a MacGuffin constantly broadcasting a signal...
True. I wasn't saying EM Shielding was a waste of money; it absolutely has its uses above and beyond simply turning your car's wireless off.
I was saying that if your concern is making your car hackerproof*, then turning your car's wireless off is the option that's free, costs no mod points, and is easily reversible.
Not that you have many reasons to let your car run wireless. When you're operating it from the inside, the only reason to have your wireless on is to use your Gridlink, and once you have the override installed I should think that your vehicle and your Gridlink are separate Matrix objects, even if they don't appear that way.
*yeah yeah Data Taps are a thing. But if someone has access opportunity to plant a Data Tap, EM shielding probably won't protect either.
It would, actually. A Faraday cage is a grounding system, so unless they connect to a wire that you've run through the cage, not even a Data Tap would work.
I think we're talking about two different things. I wasn't saying that if you turn your wireless off you'd BE hit by cars that can't see you. I was saying doing so would be violating modern traffic laws.
They're absolutely related but not at all the same thing. Even if your car had a malfunction and it was cut off from the Matrix, presumably everything else moving on the road should be able to adapt. "Should be able" is the operative phrase. Taking away a redundant layer of traffic safety shouldn't result in a crash, but it will do so when (for whatever reason) the remaining redundant layers are also absent. If the car coming up on the intersection has faulty sensors and you're off grid, it's both your faults when you get wiped out in a T-Bone collision.
Think about why Cops pull people over for having broken brake lights. Other drivers should be paying attention and not need to be alerted that you're braking, right? They should be maintaining a safe following distance and be able to visually tell you're slowing down in time to safely avoid hitting you. But despite that, you bet your ass you'll be pulled over eventually for having broken lights anyway.
Nonsense. With the plethora of obstacles out there with no Matrix presence, Gridguide must depend on sensors just as much as, if not far more so than, matrix devices talking to each other. Otherwise it would make vehicles crash into fallen trees lying on the road, to say nothing of pedestrian collisions. Besides, look at modern anti-collision systems and try to tell me with a straight face that the corps wouldn't have developed something just as good if not better 60 years down the line. If anything, having faulty sensors would be equivalent to having broken brake lights, not going wireless.
I get what you're saying, but it's a questionable argument. Guns can be legally owned as well, but yet it's still illegal to shoot people with them. The way I see it, you can own a 20th century car with no Wireless, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's "street legal" in 2080.
And yet, there is nothing in the setting details to suggest this.
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Ghost Rigger, we're arguing whether five plus one is six or half a dozen. It's kind of pointless. My final thoughts on the topics we've been discussing:
If you want a vehicle to be remotely hackproof: turning wireless off works. As does installing the EM shielding modification. There are pros and cons for either.
Wireless off: it's free, is quickly reversible, isn't subject to losing hacking protection if a door opens or if a window is shot out.
EM Shielding: stops potential tracking signals originating from inside the vehicle, not AS easy to Data Tap (requires power tools to drill a hole thru the body or undercarriage, more time/access, etc)
It's a matter of my personal opinion that the costs involved in EM shielding render it unnecessary given a free option already exists for the same hacking protection. EM shielding is only worth its cost for the purpose holding outgoing signals from going out, as far as I'm concerned. If you don't agree, we don't agree. Opinions tend to vary, and apparently ours do on this topic.
The consequences of being "dark" on gridguide: There are no rules for it because it's inherently locale-dependent. Even in the same sprawl, the consequences for not being visible on GridGuide vary from Seattle's Downtown core and Redmond Barrens. As far as I'm concerned, it's as inconceivable that it'd be permissible to drive on public, gridlink-equipped roadways without an active gridlink as it would be to drive at night with your headlights off. For all the same reasons. That cars "should" be able to avoid non-gridlink equipped hazards doesn't excuse a vehicle from the obligation to be on gridlink. Except of course in places where it'd make sense that the law/cops don't care (rural areas, obviously places that don't have active Gridguide, etc)
Look at the example on pg 260 where the shadowrunner flips a Yooie on the 502. The Shadowrunner told gridguide she wanted to make a U-turn, and gridguide moved traffic out of her way to accomodate her desire. That only works when the other cars on the 502 are on autopilot working with gridguide, but it's the sort of every-day occurance that sheds light on how out of the ordinary it'd be for your vehicle to NOT be on gridguide. If it proves nothing else, this example shows that cutting your car off from the Matrix should be resulting in tougher thresholds for vehicle tests since you can't ask Gridguide to get people the frag out of your way. But ultimately, it's all GM dependent.
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The consequences of being "dark" on gridguide: There are no rules for it because it's inherently locale-dependent. Even in the same sprawl, the consequences for not being visible on GridGuide vary from Seattle's Downtown core and Redmond Barrens. As far as I'm concerned, it's as inconceivable that it'd be permissible to drive on public, gridlink-equipped roadways without an active gridlink as it would be to drive at night with your headlights off. For all the same reasons. That cars "should" be able to avoid non-gridlink equipped hazards doesn't excuse a vehicle from the obligation to be on gridlink. Except of course in places where it'd make sense that the law/cops don't care (rural areas, obviously places that don't have active Gridguide, etc)
It's funny how you keep talking about this like the police are A) capable of seeing whether or not your vehicle is on Gridguide and B) constantly looking for vehicles that aren't on Gridguide. In any event, you're severely underestimating how important sensors are. If a tree falls on the road, or a kid runs in front of your car, the matrix isn't going to tell you to stop, your sensors are. If there is, for some reason, any discrepancy between where the car in front of you is and where it's telling the matrix it is, your sensors will correct it before it becomes a deadly mistake. If a corp or the government decides that a certain vehicle of theirs needs to operate off the grid, you need your sensors to realize it's there. If we assume that the engineers behind Gridguide have any brains at all, then the matrix is used only to direct traffic and enforce speed limits. It is not used to prevent vehicles from crashing into things; there are just too many ways for that to go wrong. Sensors are not a matter of "should", they are enough to avoid any hazard. If your sensors aren't good enough for that, then you're driving blind and deaf.
Look at the example on pg 260 where the shadowrunner flips a Yooie on the 502.
You mean the tow truck driver who probably has "Gridguide, tell people to get out of my way" privileges that other people don't?
Yeah, yeah, wageslaves and the other normies use Gridlink. In fact, it's so ubiquitous that no one will even think to check you for it. Bit of a pointless argument, since any smart runner is going to have an override and keep their gridlink on except for when they want to avoid detection anyways.
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It's funny how you keep talking about this like the police are A) capable of seeing whether or not your vehicle is on Gridguide and B) constantly looking for vehicles that aren't on Gridguide.
It's not a matter of being on the lookout. It's noticing that the vehicle there can physically be seen, yet it has no corresponding icon in AR. Remember, normal people are in AR every waking second. Traffic cops are absolutely included. So a car with no matrix presence is almost as obvious as a car running without lights on in the dark. If a cop DOES see the car, he immediately knows something is very wrong with how it's operating (assuming, of course, that driving on gridlink is locally mandated).
If the team mage casts Improved Invisibility on your car, yet you remain on Gridguide, are you being a menace to traffic? Hells to the frag yes you are. Being physically invisible but visible on the Matrix is just the inverse of being physically visible but invisible on the Matrix.
In any event, you're severely underestimating how important sensors are.
No, I'm disagreeing that they're relevant to what I'm saying about being cut off from the Matrix is being a menace to traffic that's relying on Gridguide. Lemme try one more time:
Yes, I agree that sensors should pick up the jaywalker or the box that fell out of the back of the truck. That's not the point. The point is sensors, like head/brake lights, are SUPPOSED to be in working order but aren't always. Yes, the car that hit you because it couldn't see you and couldn't passively detect you because you're not on GridLink will also be ticketed for having faulty sensors. But even then, the collision wouldn't have happened if you just were on Gridguide/the Matrix. THAT's why in-universe laws will often/usually/sometimes mandate Gridguide use.
What's more: having working sensors still won't always prevent a collision with a vehicle that's refusing to use Gridguide.
Consider the example I cited. A driver tells gridguide "I'm gonna flip a Yooie here." Gridguide moves the nearby cars just enough to accommodate that maneuver without a collision. Oops, except it doesn't warn you or coordinate with you, since you're not on Gridguide. A car suddenly pulls right in front of you without warning. Crunch. Riggers might get away with dodging that collision, sure. But then again maybe not. And it's quite easy to imagine Gridlink forcing an offline driver into a crash test that mathematically can't be succeeded upon without a rigger's advantages.
It doesn't have to be someone making a sudden U turn in front of you. You could just simply be coming up on a 4 way intersection. Stopsigns and red lights are a thing of the past in many intersections simply because Gridguide exists. The cars detect each other's approach on the intersection despite buildings blocking LOS/preventing sensor acquisition, and Gridguide tweaks their speeds to time their passage through the intersection, allowing both to breeze thru without having dramatically change speed or stop. But if you're going thru and gridguide can't account for you, you can just appear in front of a car with perfectly good sensors and it still doesn't have time to not T-Bone you.
And of course, again, sensors can be faulty. If sensors alone could be relied upon to prevent collisions, then safe driving practices would also be enough to prevent collisions and noone would ever be pulled over for broken brake lights.
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After reading the entry in Rigger 5 I was wondering you whether you could select just to install the mod in the truck or baggage box as long as you keep it cut off from the drivers compartment.
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After reading the entry in Rigger 5 I was wondering you whether you could select just to install the mod in the truck or baggage box as long as you keep it cut off from the drivers compartment.
Probably a best of both worlds scenario.
I can imagine installing EM shielding on something like a U-Haul trailer. Surely there's lots of "dumb" trailers being used on the roads of 2080 with no matrix presence other than some RFID trackers and license plate AROs. The towing vehicle could easily account for the trailer with Gridguide.
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No, I'm disagreeing that they're relevant to what I'm saying about being cut off from the Matrix is being a menace to traffic that's relying on Gridguide.
And you're wrong about how Gridguide works. It is not the case that cars on Gridguide don't crash into each other because they can see each other on the matrix, and after a little digging I can actually prove this. Skyguide is described thus:
By linking with SkyGuide, a drone can use the network’s own guidance systems to get where it needs to be. The downside is that the system takes priority over the owner’s commands, allowing the drone to be controlled by the Guide, or Riggers employed by SkyGuide, against the owner’s wishes. The upside is that SkyGuide provides both a Navigation (6) autosoft and a Maneuver (6) autosoft to any drone while it’s logged in to the network.
With that description, we can think of the Skyguide host as an RCC with control over every drone linked to it. Does an RCC allow all the drones and vehicles it controls to see each other over the Matrix? No. That's not what an RCC does. What an RCC does is take data from and give instructions to the drones and vehicles it controls; they don't crash into each other or any known obstacles because that would be impossible to do while following their given instructions. If one of the drones or vehicles controlled by an RCC encounters a sudden, unforeseen obstacle and needs to avoid it, that's a Pilot+Maneuvering check. The RCC will then be informed of the obstacle and it might give out new instructions to compensate for it, but for that first encounter with the obstacle it's entirely on the sensors and pilot of that individual drone or vehicle to avoid a crash.
Can we also think of the Gridguide host (and long as we're discussing the matter, the Harborguide host) as an RCC? Common sense says yes, but just to be sure I read the original description of Gridguide given in Rigger 3. Everything checks out: the Gridguide of the 2060s takes data in and puts instructions out, self-driving autonavs follow those instructions and collisions are averted by a vehicle's sensors and autonav. It's not a perfect match, but it's definitely a system that would evolve into something you could think of as an RCC. What all this means is that Gridguide would be aware of any vehicles on the road that it doesn't control and could compensate for them. An off-grid vehicle would only be dangerous if driven incompetently and/or recklessly, so your notion that being cut off from the matrix makes you a menace to Gridguide traffic is affirming the consequent. All X may be Y, but not all Y are X.
The point is sensors, like head/brake lights, are SUPPOSED to be in working order but aren't always.
Your argument is invalid because you're comparing an output device to an input device. Sensors aren't your brake lights in this analogy, they're your eyes and ears. As I said before, if your sensors are faulty then you are driving blind and deaf.
Consider the example I cited. A driver tells gridguide "I'm gonna flip a Yooie here." Gridguide moves the nearby cars just enough to accommodate that maneuver without a collision. Oops, except it doesn't warn you or coordinate with you, since you're not on Gridguide.
As I have already explained, Gridguide would still know that you are there and be able to compensate for your presence. In this scenario, the maneuver would be delayed until you were out of the way.
Stopsigns and red lights are a thing of the past in many intersections simply because Gridguide exists.
Citation needed. You still need those for pedestrians, and there are some legitimate reasons to drive off-grid.
And of course, again, sensors can be faulty. If sensors alone could be relied upon to prevent collisions, then safe driving practices would also be enough to prevent collisions and noone would ever be pulled over for broken brake lights.
This is your argument: "Yes officer, I am completely blind and deaf, but the crash wasn't entirely my fault!"
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Let's take how Gridguide does or doesn't work to another thread.
Can we agree that for the purposes of THIS thread: turning wireless off and installing EM shielding are both options, with different pros/cons, to protect a car from being remotely hacked?
It seems like that's something you should be able to agree with me on.
Let's take arguing about the implications of one specific downside elsewhere.
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Let's take how Gridguide does or doesn't work to another thread.
I don't think there's anything left to discuss, but I'll start something in the gear section.
Let's take arguing about one specific downside of not being able to easily put yourself BACK on the Matrix elsewhere.
Actually, you can still put yourself back on the matrix with a Faraday cage installed. The EM Shielding upgrade specifically states that a wire can be run through the cage during installation to allow certain systems or features to run wirelessly.