Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Aria on <11-26-18/0957:12>
-
So the rules bit talk about it being both obvious and having a WiFi bonus? An admittedly quick check suggests that there isn’t much that has both?? Even obvious limbs don’t have a WiFi bonus??
So what can it be applied to?
Thanks
-
It’s either. The standard cyberware need to hold either feature to qualify for Grey rating. Limbs are in
-
It’s either. The standard cyberware need to hold either feature to qualify for Grey rating. Limbs are in
That certainly makes more sense.
Are people already putting together a errata documemt for this? Currently it specifically says obvious and wireless.
I would have interpreted it as any obvious cyberlimb which can take modifications that are wireless. But obvious or wireless certainly makes it more simple.
-
What's the phrasing like? All obvious and wireless cyberware qualifies as grey, or Grey cyberware is cyberware that's obvious and has a wireless bonus?
-
Quote p. 158:
*GreyWare always counts as obvious cyberware when applicable and never provides wireless bonuses. If a piece of cyberware cannot be obvious and has no wireless component, it cannot be taken as GreyWare. Further, in addition to Magic lost due to decreased Essence, Awakened characters lose an additional point of Magic, as well as a one-point reduction in their maximum Magic, per item of GreyWare installed.
In my non-native opinion that means a piece of cyberware must qualify with either feature.
-
Pixie just beat me to the quote -- and I fully agree with his interpretation.
I suppose what can be obvious is up for discussion with your GM a bit. I'm thinking:
- obvious limbs: are obvious, no problem.
- wired reflexes: not obvious, but have a wireless component, so is OK.
- muscle replacement: no wireless ... but could be obvious, in that bad superhero art sort of way or weirdly popping out muscles where people don't normally show anything? But I'd call that 'discuss with your GM' territory.
- bone lining: can't be obvious, no wireless, not eligible.
- cybereyes, cyberears: can be made obvious. Discuss with your GM on how obvious is obvious (your eyes have a 'Grey Brothers' mark around the iris? Or your eyes are bulging out lenses fitting over the eye socket?)
etc.
-
Quote p. 158:
*GreyWare always counts as obvious cyberware when applicable and never provides wireless bonuses. If a piece of cyberware cannot be obvious and has no wireless component, it cannot be taken as GreyWare. Further, in addition to Magic lost due to decreased Essence, Awakened characters lose an additional point of Magic, as well as a one-point reduction in their maximum Magic, per item of GreyWare installed.
In my non-native opinion that means a piece of cyberware must qualify with either feature.
When I think about it you are correct.
But for clarity that should probably be reworded into "Only cyberware that can be made obvious, provides a wireless bonus or both can be taken as GreyWare."
-
I figured that Greyware is supposed to be some kind of retro-cyberpunk ware, like the the Cybereyes from Batou (Ghost in Shell). I quite like the idea to give the PCs the option to forgo conceilability for a different benefit, although I don´t understand why they had to drag wireless functionality into this and tie all of it to a specific manufacturer. The fluff section in Body Shop already mentioned a new trend of "Exoware" that goes pretty much into the same direction.
At my tables, I already introduced (overly) obvious Cyberware as an alternative drawback for used ware, instead of the higher essence costs or glitchy functions. Makes sense: If you are augmented with some brand of vintage Wired Reflexes that have some chrome and wires sticking out of your back and neck, the materials and the augmentation process itself may be more invasive than newer models, but this is offset by the fact that the system is not fully embedded in your body. Fluff-wise, greyware is not used ware, but the same logic might apply here.
-
It simply to limit the type of ware that can be grey. It’s not a big deal.
-
Sorry guys, but which book is grey-cyberware in?
Am I a book behind lol?
-
Sorry guys, but which book is grey-cyberware in?
Am I a book behind lol?
Sounds like you are.
Better than Bad came out last week. It's got some real game changers beyond greyware grade cyberware... there's a toxin that turns mages into mundane for a few hours, and a hacker quality that every hacker ever played will be buying. At least until such time they realize that for 2 points it's a "you're doing it wrong if you don't buy it" quality and errata the karma cost...
-
Thanks DR
Made my day
-
The german version reads as follows (I´ll give my best to re-translate it):
"If an implant can´t be obvious and offers and doesn´t offer a WiFi-bonus, it can´t be chosen as Greyware."
There´s two parts that might be prone to conflicting interpretations here:
- "If an implant can´t be obvious...": Depending on the phrasing in the original text (which I don´t know), this may lead to the assumption that the implant has to be an obvious one in the first place. Consequently, Wireless Reflexes wouldn´t qualify. However, WR may not be obvious by default, but they can be re-imagined in a more crude, obvious facion, with cables and chrome sticking out of your spine. Same for other stuff that´s usually hidden, like Cybersenses or even Weapons. I think that Greyware is mostly a means to reward you for showing your chrome (besides being able to seduce Augmentation fetishists ;D)
- The "and": This is more difficult. I´d like to read it as a boolean "and": Only if both statements are true, the ware can´t be taken as greyware. But I may be mistaken here. Assuming I´m right on both parts: What kind of ware neither grants a wireless bonus nor can be constructed in a way that´s somewhat obvious? The only thing that comes to mind is stuff like Bone Lacing.
-
Author here. Greyware is dope. It needed limits. It can't be wireless. It must be obvious. There are some lore reasons which may not be ovbious yet. Still, as intended, if you CAN take it as obvious, AND do so, then that qualifies it for Greyware. However, unless there is also a wireless bonus to the ware, it cannot be taken as greyware.
MUST have the normal ability to be taken wireless. MUST be obvious whether the normal ware is obvious or not.
If the ware CANNOT be obvious, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CANNOT be wireless, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CAN be wireless AND CAN be obvious, it CAN be greyware.
-
Opti: that may be what you intended, but what was actually printed was:
"If a piece of cyberware cannot be obvious and has no wireless component, it cannot be taken as GreyWare." Which by standard rules of english grammar (and formal logic, for that matter) pretty clearly means that if it can be obvious OR it normally has a wireless component, it can be greyware. (notA AND notB = notC implies that C=A OR B).
Sounds like something for the errata team (and the Missions team), because most people won't be looking in this thread, they'll just be reading the book.
Another good clarification would be whether wireless functionality means specifically get a note of a wireless on bonus, or if it is literally any wireless functionality. For example, I don't think cyber-eyes get a wireless bonus, but image link may normally operate through wireless connections. So do eyes qualify, if made obvious?
I'd love to see some suggestions from people on what 'ware could be made to work with this. Depending ont he question above maybe eyes or ears. Limbs, muscle replacement, dermal plating and bone-lacing are all clearly out. Anyone have ideas on how wired reflexes could be made obvious?
-
Yeah, I can see where people might be confused, so that why i offered my perspective. But I am also very aware that authorial intent does not equal RAW, so I'll let the errata team do its thing.
-
Beta I agree with you on the analysis of the printed text. Boolean logic tells us that you need to satisfy either but not both to be Greyware.
But this is as clear-cut a case of RAW vs RAI as can possibly be found: We literally have the author directly telling us what the author's intent was. There's no ambiguity over the RAI. That should reasonably suffice until such time formal errata is deemed necessary.
-
Re. Obvious Wired Reflexes: like this (https://goo.gl/images/jYXTss), probably.
(Bonus: mirror cybereyes are also obvious).
-
Re. Obvious Wired Reflexes: like this (https://goo.gl/images/jYXTss), probably.
(Bonus: mirror cybereyes are also obvious).
I always thought that was obvious Muscle Replacement ... but I suppose you could have visible cords bulging out of the skin, running down your neck and back and along your limbs, perhaps?
-
I guess the meta-nature of the criterion of "obvious" is also debatable, pending Opti clarifying RAI on that as well :D
Is "obvious" a descriptive term potentially applied to a wide variety of cyberware such as wired reflexes and muscle replacement which could or could not, depending on the artistic imagining of the player, be obvious to onlookers?
Or is "obvious" a crunch term that applies only to cyberware that is explicitly available as an "obvious" implant. Basically cyberlimbs, and, I think that's about it? (I don't think Cybereyes are differentiated between obvious and synthetic...)
I'd imagine regardless of the RAI, the application would in effect have to be the former. I'm pretty sure only cyberlimbs have an "obvious" mechanic, and I don't think they have wireless bonuses, which would mean if the latter interpretation is used then nothing qualifies for greyware.
-
SSDR, I think -- because of that exact reasoning -- that we have to assume that 'obvious' is descriptive, not mechanical. But then the question becomes 'how obvious'? Does it have to be obvious when you are wearing an armor jacket, for example?
Both eyes and ears can be obvious -- that samurai's eyes could be that mirror shade dome, for example (I'm pretty sure the proto-samurai in the Neuromancer (and the prequel short story) had sunglass-like eye implants, as an example). Whether they qualify as having wireless functionality I'm trying to get clarified.
Taking a quick skim through other options didn't make a lot of strong candidates jump out at me, which is why I'm curious about what others can come up with.
-
A "wireless component" isn't exactly the same thing as a "wireless bonus". What has a wireless component despite having no wireless bonus can get into interpretation and opinion. Take the Ocular Drone for example... surely it has a wireless component in giving it remote controls and taking in video feeds from it, yet there's no stated wireless bonus. But does an olfactory booster have a wireless component? I'd argue yes, but it's certainly not explicit.
Here's a list I put together of SR5 core cyberware that has in my view should be universally agreeable as having a wireless function (if not a wireless bonus). I'm leaving out the "obvious" criterion... in my view if it's descriptive that means it potentially applies to anything. Yes, even Bone Lacing. (and becomes a matter of the Disguise skill, if the presence of "obvious" cyberware needs to be hidden)
Control Rig (would only work via direct connection to vehicle/RCC as Greyware, since no wireless...)
Cyberlimbs (arguably.. them having a wireless component may not have wide consensus)
Datajack (largely pointless however without wireless.. why wouldn't you just buy trodes instead for a DNI)
Fingertip Compartment/Smuggling Compartment (although the usefulness of an "obvious" hidden compartment seems dubious)
(Image/Sound/Taste/Touch/etc) Link
Internal Air Tank
Ocular Drone (without wireless, I suppose you'd either have to have it literally dragging a wire or being restricted to Pilot control and can't share recorded video until uploading directly into a commlink or such...)
Reaction Enhancers
Skilljack
Skillwires
Smartlink
Tooth Compartment
Wired Reflexes
*Edit: And add Bone Lacing to the list. The rules for wireless functionality (pg 421, SR5) use Bone Lacing as an explicit example of having a wireless function.
If we take the RAW and say you need to be either obvious or have a wireless component, then in my view literally everything is eligible by virtue of everything being potentially obvious. So by my reading it's in effect everything that has a wireless component is eligible, but must be descriptively obvious and lack that wireless function as greyware.
-
I’m pretty sure that in the quoted text above the wireless component refers to wireless bonus as it is even mentioned in the previous line these bonuses are mentioned.
If that’s not the case then any cyberware can become greyware as everything in SR5 has a wireless component, even bone lacing
-
Honest to god guys why is this still under discussion? The Author told us what was intended, he wrote a tautology.
Select piece of cyberware check it verses the tautology. It's binary. It will be grey eligible or it won't.
Making this a formal logic isn't necessary.
-
Honest to god guys why is this still under discussion? The Author told us what was intended, he wrote a tautology.
Select piece of cyberware check it verses the tautology. It's binary. It will be grey eligible or it won't.
Making this a formal logic isn't necessary.
Ok, so to reiterate the author's intent:
Author here. Greyware is dope. It needed limits. It can't be wireless. It must be obvious. There are some lore reasons which may not be ovbious yet. Still, as intended, if you CAN take it as obvious, AND do so, then that qualifies it for Greyware. However, unless there is also a wireless bonus to the ware, it cannot be taken as greyware.
MUST have the normal ability to be taken wireless. MUST be obvious whether the normal ware is obvious or not.
If the ware CANNOT be obvious, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CANNOT be wireless, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CAN be wireless AND CAN be obvious, it CAN be greyware.
Given that:
what 'ware can be "obvious"? I'll wager you and I are going to disagree, because from a descriptive sense I'd say any cyberware can be described as having an obvious appearance.
what 'ware can be "wireless"? Sure, the intent is that "wireless component" means that there's an explicit wireless bonus listed.
So if the first criterion (it's "obvious") means basically every piece of cybertech ever, it's just coming down to everything with a wireless bonus is eligible for greware, natch?
-
Author here. Greyware is dope. It needed limits. It can't be wireless. It must be obvious. There are some lore reasons which may not be ovbious yet. Still, as intended, if you CAN take it as obvious, AND do so, then that qualifies it for Greyware. However, unless there is also a wireless bonus to the ware, it cannot be taken as greyware.
MUST have the normal ability to be taken wireless. MUST be obvious whether the normal ware is obvious or not.
If the ware CANNOT be obvious, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CANNOT be wireless, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CAN be wireless AND CAN be obvious, it CAN be greyware.
Am I parsing that right, that you need a wireless bonus on the ware that you can lose and it has to be ware that has external components that can be displayed?
I'm hard pressed to come up with gear in the core book that will fullfill those requirements
Datajack and Skilljack as well as Fingertip Compartment are the only cybernetic augments that are externally visible and who have a wireless bonus. Technically a smuggling compartment would qualify as well but then, what's the point.
Cyberlimbs don't have a wireless bonus at all, so they are right out just like cyber eyes and ears
-
Author here. Greyware is dope. It needed limits. It can't be wireless. It must be obvious. There are some lore reasons which may not be ovbious yet. Still, as intended, if you CAN take it as obvious, AND do so, then that qualifies it for Greyware. However, unless there is also a wireless bonus to the ware, it cannot be taken as greyware.
MUST have the normal ability to be taken wireless. MUST be obvious whether the normal ware is obvious or not.
If the ware CANNOT be obvious, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CANNOT be wireless, it cannot be greyware.
If the ware CAN be wireless AND CAN be obvious, it CAN be greyware.
I think Jack hit everything in the CRB that qualifies. Honest question, what Cyberware did you envision as Greyware? That may be more useful than stating what isn't intended to be Greyware. At least let the Errata team know which bits were intended to be Greyware.
Also, probably worth mentioning if it's not an explicitly an option at chargen it's really going to be a rare thing. It's rare to see significant changes in Cyberware in a character during play.
-
Well in the course of the thread I have to admit that it's a lot more fuzzy than I first imagined.
The issues:
RAI is that only cyberware with a wireless bonus qualify. The RAW got published as "anything with a wireless component" which in turn means "basically every piece of cyberware qualifies for the first criterion" because everything in the sixth world has a wireless function... even your underwear has a wireless function.
The meaning of the term "obvious" for the other criterion. As discussed upthread, it simply has to be a descriptive term. Which in turn means in effect anything can be implanted in such a way you can tell it's there.. even if it doesn't break the skin. And there's another dimension to "obvious"... it doesn't necessarily mean you have to physically SEE it for it to be obvious. Wired Reflexes, for example, are "obvious" even if they don't put physical chrome up and down your neck and spine because your behavior with them switched on is easy to discern from someone who doesn't have Wired Reflexes.
-
I like a good rules argument as much as the next guy, you have gotten so nit picky, you guys apparently can't see the forest for the trees. It's clearly true you can lead the horse to the water but you can't make'em drink. It matters not at all whether we agree on what is or what is not obvious. The GM at the table can read the rule and make their determination. As the game has always been intended.
In general for me it will simply be Bioware can't be Grey.
Honestly I don't understand how you guy are reaching your conclusions. Cybereyes are clearly obvious and wireless, otherwise you wouldn't have a smartlink bonus. But you do you and if you can't handle Greyware, it's ok the armor add on is very clear.
-
Honestly I don't understand how you guy are reaching your conclusions. Cybereyes are clearly obvious and wireless, otherwise you wouldn't have a smartlink bonus. But you do you and if you can't handle Greyware, it's ok the armor add on is very clear.
The problem is "obvious" is an opinion based word*. And two different people may not agree on what is obvious.
For me the issue with the rules is the best way to read it, it basically means every cyberware qualifies... which clearly flies in the face of the RAI.
Personally, I'm fine with that. I'm down with all cyberware being eligible for greyware grade, but when grayware it must both be obvious to an observer (even if it could normally/usually be subtle) and it must lose all wireless functions/bonuses. But that's my interpretation, and others may not like it or even agree it's fair or even sound. Hence the thread...
*Edit: of course "obvious" could also be a crunch word, meaning cyberware that explicitly comes as "obvious". So, just cyberlimbs and only cyberlimbs... but I think everyone agrees that can't be the correct interpretation.
-
It's ok for it just to be an opinion SSDR. It's ok that we won't all agree. Ever game will always be a little different. It's one the fundamental realities with RPGs from the very beginning of D&D. Your game's Seattle will never be the same as my games Seattle, and I'm sure both of ours will be different from's Hobb's Seattle. I'm sure when i read ever piece of ware's description i'll probably find a couple that I will be naa that won't work for grey. If or when that happens I'll say so, and say why I ruled that way, and if it's an issue we can discuss it.
-
Greyware might not make it into Missions because of the “obvious” part. There would need to be a massive list as to what can be considered “obvious” because otherwise it’ll be GM fiat.
As it stands (or at least my understanding is) only cyberware qualify no matter what. Also the implant need to either be obvious (if this is to be taken literal then only cyberlimbs qualify here) with a Visual component or have a wireless bonus which is stripped no matter what.
As for the visual component what that could be is something that cannot be hidden but up to GM/player I guess. The rundown I saw earlier could cover some, but no matter what I would not allow surgeon scars to be that component. Cords running under skin, sure, chrome plates which aren’t covered by skin etc.
With the exception of NPCs these implants will never make it into Mirror Shade games, while Pink Mohawk players rejoice.
Greyware sounds like a 30 year retrofashion backblast which is kind of awesome imho.
-
I don't think anyone is gonna cry if grey ware doesn't make it to missions. Or even if is only applicable to very short list of items. Limbs, eyes, and ears. But I do agree it is a Retro-fashion backblast and I am all for it.
-
@Marcus
The point is that the author just clarified that only ware with a "wireless bonus" and not just wireless functionality qualifies. The three (four) pieces I listed are the only ones in core that fullfill those criteria.
And it doesn't help to say, that you could implant gear with wireless capabilities, because those implants are independent pieces of cyberware and most of them aren't obvious i.e. break the skin.
In this case RAW is a lot more permissive than RAI.
-
@Marcus
The point is that the author just clarified that only ware with a "wireless bonus" and not just wireless functionality qualifies. The three (four) pieces I listed are the only ones in core that fullfill those criteria.
And it doesn't help to say, that you could implant gear with wireless capabilities, because those implants are independent pieces of cyberware and most of them aren't obvious i.e. break the skin.
In this case RAW is a lot more permissive than RAI.
That's a perfectly fair point Jack. I don't have any issue with it. I agree there's lots of possible interpretations of "obvious" arguing about them isn't going take us anywhere useful. We have a tautology present by the author if the issue comes up at a table i'm running, I will compare the piece of ware to that and make my choice. I think every GM should do the same. For missions ether let Opti give us the exact list he had in mind, make up a list the Dev are comfortable with, or just bane it. With the armor add on, I don't think this hugely critical.
-
Going away from the exact wording for a bit, imo the intention is pretty clear.
To make a cyberware grey you need to have a disadvantage because of it. Either because the cyberware is not hidden anymore or because you lose a wireless bonus. If both does not apply then it can't be grey because there is no free lunch...
-
That's kinda the jist I see working as a limitation envisioned by the RAI but made different in practice by the RAW:
Greyware can be any cyberware (not what was RAI) but any cyberware that IS greyware must be both obvious and lack all wireless functionality (my interpretation of the RAW)
-
Quote p. 158:
*GreyWare always counts as obvious cyberware when applicable and never provides wireless bonuses. If a piece of cyberware cannot be obvious and has no wireless component, it cannot be taken as GreyWare. Further, in addition to Magic lost due to decreased Essence, Awakened characters lose an additional point of Magic, as well as a one-point reduction in their maximum Magic, per item of GreyWare installed.
Assuming this quote is correct (I don't have the book), it is pretty clearly laid out that there exists some cyberware that cannot be Grey Cyberware. Based on the sentence I underlined it definitely applies to cyber that is neither obvious nor wireless. If it is neither, it definitely isn't grey. The debate is whether that is a boolean "and" or not.
IF (NOT Obvious AND NOT Wireless) THEN NOT Grey
To me, it reads as: the cyberware must either have a wireless component or be obvious in order to qualify for Grey. The author chiming in that it must be both was surprising to me, because as has already been pointed out, that potentially means that very little cyber would actually qualify (assuming by wireless component we mean has a wireless bonus).
-
"Obvious" is has a serious problem if meant to be a criterion for what qualifies for greyware (as opposed to what all greyware must be, as I prefer to read it.)
List a piece of cyberware that you say cannot be obvious, and I'll respond with a description of a NPC where that cyberware is obvious.
Bone lacing? You can see a hexogonal pattern of metal fused to his skull just beneath the skin of his forehead.
Wireless reflexes? You can see shiny chrome jutting up along her spine from the collar of her jacket right up into the base of her skull.
Internal Air tank? You see a suspicious bulge under his shirt right where a pistol might be concealed, but seeing your attention he sighs and lifts his shirt, displaying a steampunk style arrangement of tubes going between into his ribcage and a retro-stylish dial indicating some kind of gas supply..
etc. Any cyberware is potentially obvious if you just describe it as such.
-
The only category of cyberware where obvious is a official keyword I could find is cyberlimbs.
So if you accept that limitation greyware can only be used for obvious cyberlimbs or 'ware with a wireless bonus (which gets removed).
-
The only category of cyberware where obvious is a official keyword I could find is cyberlimbs.
So if you accept that limitation greyware can only be used for obvious cyberlimbs or 'ware with a wireless bonus (which gets removed).
And, if you interpret the RAW as both conditions having to apply, you can`t even take it for them, since Cyberlimbs don`t have a wireless bonus per default ::)
If (what I previously assumed) the point of greyware was to encourage players to take obvious "retro-style" Cyberware instead of non-obvious (internal or covert) Chrome, restricting it to cyber that is obvious per se totally defeats the purpose. In fact, it would have made more sense restrict it to cyber that is usually not obvious, like Wireless Reflexes or Cybereyes. The fluff in Chrome Flesh mentioned a new augmentation trend of "Exoware" that goes in the same direction. I actually liked this idea so much that I already made some houserules to reward overly-obvious Chrome, so maybe I am a bit biased in my initial interpretation of the greyware crunch.
However, if it is - by the fabled will of the original writer - really supposed to be RAI that Greyware can only be chosen for obvious Cyberware, then this means that greyware is not really rewarding players for making their chrome obvious, but for losing wireless bonuses. Which would be less of a cool idea IMO, but hell, why not? Maybe the "Exoware" trend is further elaborated on in a second augmentation supplement instead? ???
And then there is the question on how to interpret the AND/OR relation between both conditions and the fact that Greyware is, in fact, more expensive than Alphaware and not cheaper as advertised in the fluff. Which might be explained by assuming that the original writer - missed the fact that Alphaware in SR5 has a cost modifier of 1,2 and not 2,0 like in SR4.
Let`s face it: Greyware is yet another typical SR5 crunchbomb where the general idea may (or may not) have been really good, but the RAW fails to reflect it. This is what should be done now, instead of pointlessly arguing around in the forum or dashing of ill-considered clarification attempts that further drives the whole thing in the ground:
- Determine what the actual "point" of greyware is supposed to be.
- Determine the Interpretation of the RAW fits that vision in the best possible way. F.i., if greyware is mainly supposed to reward making cyberware obvious, restricting it to cyber that already is obvious is - obviously - not the right way to go. There is no shame in backpedaling here ;)
- Pass it on to errata.
To take the edge off: I`d love to more of these "excentric" cyberware grades in the future! What about ware that, instead of not offering wireless bonuses, treats every bonus as a wireless bonus (and offers none when jammed)? Or plagiarized ware, which is cheaper, but always illegal because it breaks copyright law? Or rules for renting/leasing ware that getś tracked by the original owner and taken away if you fail to pay up (Repo Men, anyone? ;D)...