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6E - The Priority Table: Open discussion

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MercilessMing

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« Reply #45 on: <05-05-21/1450:40> »
Quote from: Xenon
From a karma cost point of view feel 5 Karma x new rating (same as Attributes) is actually spot on.

I couldn't disagree more.  Almost everything about advancement in SR6 is far from spot on, and you know it.  First, Attr being more valuable than skill should be obvious at face value to any experienced player, so skills and attr should not be the same cost to raise.  Second, that cost is SO HIGH compared to recommended karma rewards that high skill/attr advancement may as well not exist.  For the karma it costs to raise a single skill from 6 to 12, a mage could learn the entire Combat, Detection, Health, and Illusion spell catalogs in the CRB (actually I'm surprised how many spells there are in the CRB, I initially imagined you could learn every single spell). 
I'm not saying raising a skill should be as cheap as learning a spell, but the delta cost between raising your high rank abilities/attributes and the low hanging advancement fruit (spells, specializations, etc) is so great that high level advancement is not a practical growth path. 
But you know this.  We all know this, it's a constant pain in SR.

Xenon

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« Reply #46 on: <05-05-21/1601:25> »
Attr being more valuable than skill should be obvious at face value to any experienced player
Attributes are more valuable during chargen, yes, which mean attribute priority typically get more priority love during chargen.
Which is also why I suggested that you should get more skill points (delta) per priority rank compared to attributes.

Post chargen, skills typically get a lot of karma love actually. Often more so than attributes... ;-)


At...a mage could learn the entire Combat, Detection, Health, and Illusion spell catalogs in the CRB (actually I'm surprised how many spells there are in the CRB, I initially imagined you could learn every single spell). 
I am not disagreeing that spells are too cheap compared to both attributes and skills (from a karma point of view).
But perhaps the issue here is that spells are too cheap rather than skills being too expensive...


high level advancement is not a practical growth path. 
Perhaps the intent of the prio table is to let you exit chargen as an experienced (and often highly specialized) criminal.
And perhaps the main intent of post chargen karma is to let you expand sideways. To open up more options.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #47 on: <05-05-21/1618:44> »
For the karma it costs to raise a single skill from 6 to 12, a mage could learn the entire Combat, Detection, Health, and Illusion spell catalogs in the CRB (actually I'm surprised how many spells there are in the CRB, I initially imagined you could learn every single spell). 
Skill cap is 9. The only reason the Skill Level table goes up to 12 in value, is because of Specializations/Expertise. From 6+ to 9++ is 125 karma, not as high as 285. In fact, going from 0 to 9++ is 235 karma.
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Tecumseh

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« Reply #48 on: <05-05-21/1706:21> »
Attribute
E = 12
D = 14 (increase of 2)
C = 17 (increase of 3)
B = 20 (increase of 3)
A = 24 (increase of 4)

Skill
E = 12
D = 14 (increase of 2)
C = 18 (increase of 4)
B = 24 (increase of 6)
A = 32 (increase of 8)

I like both of Xenon's tables and would use either. I'd probably vote for the second one (above) because I prefer uneven scaling between priority steps.

Post-chargen is more complicated. Others have alluded to it but I'll say it outright: the bigger issue is with what Magic characters can use karma for vs. what Mundane characters can do.

This problem isn't unique to SR6 and has been around for a while. But what a mundane can do with 5 karma or 11 karma is laughable compared to a magician can accomplish with a new spell or an adept getting a new power point.

It's a deeper dig to fix, but the entire karma economy needs to be revamped, from the top (karma awards) down to the bottom (karma costs). It needs a holistic approach and until then any debate about karma costs between skills and attributes is just going to be a piecemeal solution.

If we're going to have scaled costs for improvements, then we need to get out of the precedent of karma awards being in the low single digits. Larger awards provide more opportunity for granularity in costs. Sticker shock that a spell costs 25 karma? Well maybe not if the average karma award is 40. And now maybe you can scale other costs to a point where a magician might be tempted to advance a skill or an attribute every once in a while instead of just pouring everything into initiations and spells.

Perhaps not, but it's nice to imagine.

MercilessMing

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« Reply #49 on: <05-05-21/1751:13> »
Quote from: Xenon
Perhaps the intent of the prio table is to let you exit chargen as an experienced (and often highly specialized) criminal.
And perhaps the main intent of post chargen karma is to let you expand sideways. To open up more options

It's a game about specialists.  Branching out is definitely one path, and the cost structure encourages it - but that should be an RP choice. 

Quote from: Michael Chandra
Skill cap is 9. The only reason the Skill Level table goes up to 12 in value, is because of Specializations/Expertise. From 6+ to 9++ is 125 karma, not as high as 285. In fact, going from 0 to 9++ is 235 karma
Noted thanks. So lets take the cost from 6 to 9, 120 karma.  What could you buy with 120 karma other than 3 points in a single skill?

24 spells (The entire Manipulation catalog in the CRB)
6 skills from 0 to level 2 with specializations
4 skills to level 3
2 skills to level 4
1 skill to level 6 plus 2 specializations and an expertise (ironically, the same # of dice as a level 9 skill, though obvs you would purchase spec + exp first)
Every single non-awakened/resonance skill at lvl 1 with a specialization
Raise AGI from 1 to 6 and get firearms from 0 to 2 with specialization, going from 1 die in shooting pistols to 10 (and +5 dice in all agility related tasks)
40 Knowledge skills
13 Languages at Expert level
15 Force 4 Qi foci bonded
6 levels of Initiation plus MAG 6->7
And just for fun, $240,000 with Working For the Man

The cost scaling is just too high, the opportunity cost on other things, too great.  Realistically, in terms of post-gen karma, everything after skill level 5 is a pretty low return on karma.  5 is when you can get expertise and a second specialization.  There are no brass rings to reach for after that, it's just a big hill of karma for a few extra dice.

« Last Edit: <05-05-21/1937:22> by MercilessMing »

Finstersang

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« Reply #50 on: <05-05-21/1920:21> »
Quote from: Xenon
Perhaps the intent of the prio table is to let you exit chargen as an experienced (and often highly specialized) criminal.
And perhaps the main intent of post chargen karma is to let you expand sideways. To open up more options

It's a game about specialists.  Branching out is definitely one path, and the cost structure encourages it - but that should be an RP choice. 

First: Bold assumption that thereīs any form of concise "intent" at work here  ::)

Second: To put MMīs statement more precisely, the cost structure of character advancement encourages branching out. The cost structure of character building is pretty much neutral if you donīt keep further advancements (and the free 50 Karma during chargen) in mind. But if you do, the overal structure heavily encoruages you to go as narrow as possible during chargen and later branch out into side skills.

And as much as we try to justify that by repeating to ourselfes that "SR is a game about specialization": This creates problems. Players are more likely to start out with highly specialized characters that lack options outside their main skills, and when the time comes to spend karma, speccing into side skills doesnīt really feel like actual growth. Instead of slowly becoming an ace decker or gunslinger, you already start out as one and later just add some frills and ruffles. Yes, you could save up the Karma to raise your optimized main skill from 6 to 7 or higher, but it takes ages to get the karma needed for that one additional die, especially since you now have to raise what had been a whole skill group in 5th Edition (not to mention the bad joke that is 6th Edition training intervalls  :P).

Itīs a clash between a linear costed chargen system and a progressively costed advancement system. IMO, one of these needs to go, if only for the sake of our holy simplification. Iīm not even dedicated which, itīs the interaction that causes these problems.
« Last Edit: <05-05-21/1922:08> by Finstersang »

Wakshaani

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« Reply #51 on: <05-05-21/2104:28> »
Itīs a clash between a linear costed chargen system and a progressively costed advancement system. IMO, one of these needs to go, if only for the sake of our holy simplification. Iīm not even dedicated which, itīs the interaction that causes these problems.

I can't agree with this more. Aligning the systems is a big step to overcoming the problem.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #52 on: <05-06-21/0400:04> »
The problem is: I love Priority because it comes with way less choice paralysis than Karmagen. So unifying it could be incredibly frustrating. Maybe a partial point-system, like D&D uses for its attribute-point systems, could be a nice intermediary move. (E.g. ranks 1 and 2 and spec cost 1 point, ranks 3 and 4 2 points, rank 5 and 6 3 points, rank 7 and 8 4 points, rank 9 and 10 5 points.)
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Xenon

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« Reply #53 on: <05-06-21/0848:13> »
I agree.

If we are to make changes here I think it should to use a point system (similar to what we have today during chargen) but make it progressive instead of linear (similar to how post chargen is today) but perhaps step-wise and not so punishing as it is today.

For example:

Metatype
  • During chargen, different metatype priority ranks give you different amount of ear-marked metatype points
  • Metatype points are used for buying Edge (cost as other attributes) and Qualities (humans get a few bonus points since they have higher max edge and because they don't get free racial qualities)
  • Customization karma can be used at a 1:1 ratio

Attributes.
  • During chargen, different attribute priority ranks give you different amount of ear-marked attribute points
  • Attribute points are used for buying Physical and Mental Attributes.
  • First rank is free and cost 0 points (all attributes start out at 1).
  • Rank 2 and rank 3 cost 1 point each.
  • Rank 4 and above cost 2 points each.
  • Metatype maximum rank is special and cost 3 points
  • Customization karma (and later post chargen karma) can be used at a 1:1 ratio

Skills.
  • During chargen, different skill priority ranks give you different amount of ear-marked skill points
  • Skill points are used for buying skills.
  • Rank 1, 2 and 3 cost 1 point each
  • Rank 4 and above cost 2 points each.
  • Rank 9 (post chargen only) is special and cost 3 points.
  • Specialization is special and cost 1 point.
  • Customization karma (and later post chargen karma) can be used at a 1:1 ratio

Magic/Resonance
  • During chargen, different Magic/Resonance priority ranks give you different amount of ear-marked magic/resonance points
  • Magic points are used for buying magic attribute (cost as other attributes), spells, rituals, preparations (2 points each), and for mystics also power points (3 points each) as well as Awakened Qualities (Sorcerer, Conjurer, Enchanter, Adept, Mystic, Magician) and spare points can also be used at a 1:1 ratio as skill points for Astral, Conjuring, Enchanting and Sorcery skills
  • Resonance points are used for buying resonance attribute (cost as other attributes) and to buy complex forms (2 points each) as well as Emerged Qualities (Technomancer, Sourcerer, Cyberadept, Machinist, Technoshaman) and spare points can also be used at a 1:1 ratio as skill points for Cracking, Electronics, Engineering and Tasking skills
  • Maximum Magic/Resonance rank (before initiation/submerge/augmentations this is 6) is special and cost 3 points
  • Customization karma (and later post chargen karma) can be used at a 1:1 ratio

Resources
  • During chargen, different resource priority ranks give you different amount resources (as today)
  • Customization karma can be used at a 1:5000 muyen ratio

Customization karma reduced to 10 points.
« Last Edit: <05-06-21/0851:52> by Xenon »

Hobbes

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« Reply #54 on: <05-06-21/1010:58> »
That is broadly how I'd like to see the Priority table as well.  Basically a hybrid Priority / Build Point set up.  Higher Priority gets you more Build Points for that Priority with Metatype and Magic Priority having a bunch of sub-options for each Meta or Awakened.

I'd like it to not use Karma at all, just arbitrary "Build Points", or "Attribute Build Points" and "Quality Build Points" if one Priority needs to be more granular than another.  Also gives flexibility in costing things differently from how they're advanced in play.  No need to double the karma cost of Qualities for example. 

Tecumseh

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« Reply #55 on: <05-07-21/0052:27> »
I can't agree with this more. Aligning the systems is a big step to overcoming the problem.

In the past - I think in the early days of SR5 - the devs talked a lot about the desire to align the systems, with karmagen as the ideal, but also the challenge of getting new players into the system and not scaring them off with a mathematically intense chargen system.

I like chargen as much as the next person, but it practically requires a tool to help you construct a character, whether it's Chummer or Hero Lab or a spreadsheet. That can be a significant barrier to entry to more casual players. I've helped dozens if not hundreds of players through the priority system and that was complicated enough. Karmagen would have been much more challenging.

As such, I think this thread is on the right track. If one of the systems has to go then it's probably the strictly scaled advancement costs.

Typhus

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« Reply #56 on: <05-07-21/1029:44> »
I feel like the route that Cyberpunk Red went is pretty healthy.  It means having more than one option in the chargen section though.

Option 1: Total Beginners
Something simple like a pre-built package or a customizable version of the traditional archetype.  Make a few choices within a very constrained list of options and you are done.  You'll be successful, but with room to grow into better gear and specializations.  For those who have played D&D5E, think of how they assign gear to new characters.  You get a few choices, but the menu is short.

Option 2: More Freedom
Probably like a set of pre-built priority choices.  Pick one, and spend the resources accordingly.  Gear and skill packages available as recommendations/quick picks.

Option 3: Full Customization
Point Buy/Karma Gen.  I'm also in favor of the scaling build point costs where higher ranks take more BP to buy.  I think skills should cost less than attributes to advance.  While 1:1 is easiest to grasp for new players, I don't think it's too big an ask of new players to work out the math.

Wakshaani

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« Reply #57 on: <05-07-21/1226:07> »
My personal choice is a two-stage version.

Version A would be Priority build, included in the core book, to help new players along and make sure characters lined up properly.

Version B would be full-blown Karma build, in the "Runner's Companion" book, to allow players more freedom once they knew what was going on.

And absolutely you'd want to tie the two with the same costs, even if they were hidden, to avoid minmax opportunities. (IE, taking attributes in chargen at 5 and 6 and others at 1, because build points are more efficient than karma... that'd have to go.)


Hobbes

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« Reply #58 on: <05-07-21/1302:05> »
My personal choice is a two-stage version.

Version A would be Priority build, included in the core book, to help new players along and make sure characters lined up properly.

Version B would be full-blown Karma build, in the "Runner's Companion" book, to allow players more freedom once they knew what was going on.

And absolutely you'd want to tie the two with the same costs, even if they were hidden, to avoid minmax opportunities. (IE, taking attributes in chargen at 5 and 6 and others at 1, because build points are more efficient than karma... that'd have to go.)

Min/Max opportunities are good.  There are lots of players who enjoy that aspect of the game as much as playing the game.  Bad is when RP choices cause significant mechanical penalties or when one particular set of mechanical choices is overwhelmingly better than all the other choices.

The distance between "Best" and "Next 2 or 3 Bests" shouldn't be noticeable in a play session.  And "I want to play a smart Street Samurai with a splash of technical skills" shouldn't result in a significant compromise of combat ability.  Whole lot of that is subjective though. 

Odsh

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« Reply #59 on: <05-10-21/1602:59> »
If I had to balance out the priority table, I would try out different combinations and for each one calculate the equivalent cost for creating the the same character with karma. Then adjust the amount of resources provided by priority level so that the karma cost remains more or less constant across all combinations.

This will never be perfect since karma costs are increasing with ratings, whereas with the priority system, everything is linear. This is especially true for some builds like troll bow specialists. But then again, if it were up to me, I would also change the karma cost for attributes by subtracting the racial modifier before applying the multiplier. Otherwise, who in his right mind would spend 50 karma for that last point to reach 10 Strength?