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Codes of Honor and SRM.

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #45 on: <06-15-18/1907:28> »
On second hand knowledge I was informed during my Japanese studies in college that I would not be welcome in many establishments in japan because I had tattooing. This was due to many yakuza and gangs using tattooing to mark their members. so would this not carry over to meeting in certain locations. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe 2077 japan is more tolerant or maybe I was given incorrect info.

This is something I can speak a bit about with some authority having lived in Japan for 6 years.  How that applies to the Sixth world Japan, perhaps less so.

But as a baseline: while tattooes ARE considered a "get the hell out of here" mark in many establishments exactly for that stated reason (signifies gang affiliation) if you're a gaijin it's also pretty clear you're not a ganger.  Anecdotally: Both of my shoulders and biceps are tattooed and I was never turned away from an onsen or given trouble at a beach.  But then again I'm obviously a white guy and therefore not be a member of a local gang. 

Furthermore, the tattoo stigma is increasingly becoming old fashioned.  Among the youth in the big cities it's becoming more common, just as it is across the US.  Just less so/more slowly.  What all this means for SRM/Neo-Tokyo... probably will boil down to table variation.  Perhaps if you say your character is a gaijin and you're fine with suffering discrimination against foreigners, perhaps your GM will say noone cares about your stupid barbarian ways and your "gang-like" tattooes aren't going to more negatively influence the locals than your pale skin or round eyes already are.  Maybe another GM will say in her vision of Neo-Tokyo in 2079 the stigma against tattooes is totally archaic and no longer practiced by mainstream culture.  Anyway... I'll stop on this topic... I'm making it a total tangent.
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Marcus

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« Reply #46 on: <06-15-18/1909:17> »
It's make bunch of assumption, First just b/c gangs are rivals does not mean they constantly on kill on sight mode, next gangs are worried mostly about territorial grabs one ganger and some runner is not going to look like a territorial grab. Those two points aside there is a very good chance the gangers won't even notice the runner to begin with, Runner Gangers are presumably used to have to dealing with this, so a stealth check, an illusion spell, discreetly getting into car, any all of those could negate the issue form even arising. Failing that, then a social check should solve it, failing all of those, we might see a combat. Which is going to be a very one sided fight. I doubt it will take up enough time to need to eliminate a preplanned encounter, I've certainly had runs with off script fights before and still finished on time, particularly when those combats are one sided. In conclusion I think the disruption risk is minimal. But if it does come up then, happens for good in character reasons, and it means negative qualities have real consequences, which I think is something you wanted. If you really honest to goodness think that is gonna happen and it would be a serious issue at a table, I can move to tier 2 and Eliminate the risk totally.

I am a member of a rider association, motorcycle riders that do various charity works all over the united states. We wear a three piece back patch set in our colors. for those that do not know a three piece patch is typically associated as a 1% motorcycle style patch set, i.e. outlaw clubs. The number of times I have personally been pulled over by other members from various clubs is higher than you might think, and yes things do get violent on occasion. My club is not a violent group or an outlaw one in fact we have lawyers, cops, firefighters and others in our group. The only similarities we have to them is our three piece patch set and we ride motorcycles. Colors are very specific from group to group and are not something that is not recognized by other groups. Every club in our area knows who we are and what we are about because we had to have sit downs with them to get various levels of approval to be in their territories. As the president of my chapter I was the one who personally had to have these sit downs. The purpose of colors is to identify with the specific group. SSDR is very right in the amount of disruption that walking into different territories can cause and in those territories word travels faster than my motorcycle can cross it. One thing I do know for a fact, first hand, is if you don't pull over you can and sometimes will be shot. I am sure that this kind of game play is out of the scope of SRM.

On second hand knowledge I was informed during my Japanese studies in college that I would not be welcome in many establishments in japan because I had tattooing. This was due to many yakuza and gangs using tattooing to mark their members. so would this not carry over to meeting in certain locations. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe 2077 japan is more tolerant or maybe I was given incorrect info.

I think this code is realistically disruptive, but that being said. The Shadowrun world is not our world and maybe there it is not.

Who knew we had our own Go Ganger?
It's clear I'm out voted, I moved it into the disruptive section.
« Last Edit: <06-15-18/1910:55> by Marcus »
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Bamce

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« Reply #47 on: <06-16-18/0519:55> »
Ive played alot of shadowrun, specifically a lot of missions/living campaign style shadowrun over on the living community subreddits. I dont know of nearly as much murder hobing a your talking about.

You want a code of honor, roleplay your code of honor and leave it at that. You dont need the clearly troublesome issues that are continually brought up and open to gm interpretation to disrupt the game. 

Marcus

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« Reply #48 on: <06-16-18/0539:50> »
Ive played alot of shadowrun, specifically a lot of missions/living campaign style shadowrun over on the living community subreddits. I dont know of nearly as much murder hobing a your talking about.

You want a code of honor, roleplay your code of honor and leave it at that. You dont need the clearly troublesome issues that are continually brought up and open to gm interpretation to disrupt the game.

Well I didn't see that coming, you can respond to a post. Third or fourth time is the Charm I guess lol.  I'm happy to hear where ever you're playing that Murder Hobos are not prevalent issue. Sadly they spring up with some regularity around where I play. I blame to much PFS.

As to the rest, in the FAQ  thread we discussed it and agreed make this thread and then I was asked to make my case. It's certainly likely that this thread like many times many before it will simply be just another forgotten thought experiment. I hope not, I pray the powers that be on the board do as they said and seriously consider making some changes to Codes.

If you have something you would like to add concern the ratings, I'm all ears, or if alternative idea how to structer something I would also love to hear anything you have add. But at this point I'm sorry to say I have no interest abandoning the topic simply because you happen to think we would all be better off only with only RPing Codes. To me Codes are classic components of SR, and as I said earlier I would like to see that become much more common in missions play.

Thanks for the reply lol.

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Streetsam_Crunch

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« Reply #49 on: <06-16-18/0631:25> »
Having seen both types of playstyles I get where each of your viewpoints is coming from.

Ideally, people build toward the "character", but there are also those who build strictly for 'points' and min-max it out for nothing but "power". The best systems balance this out, and to be fair Shadowrun has tipped in both directions depending on edition (and even specific mechanics) in the quest for balance. Shadowrun has had a harder go at it than some systems because it's more ambitious, covering both tech and magic, fantasy and science fiction at the same time. While it's a great excuse for the next edition (as times and tech and magic change) it tends to also create some pretty strong balance arguments.

While I've encountered the trope of "murder hobos" (in fact, my Chicago Missions character, Hodge, was kind of build around that trope in a genuine sort of way) I've also had the pleasure of running a game of earnest players who were more interested in story than mechanics. This is something that doesn't always fit into "Missions" perimeters that a GM who will see someone for one or two sessions before they take that same character to a completely different GM at any given game.

Again, we have to keep in mind, anything that is likely "Missions" legal needs to fit into a single 4-hour game that most GM's would accept from a GM they don't know 2 months before at another con or event. That's what they're shooting for here... I think.

If it is a negative, the GM has to come up with a possible run-in (or in my original suggestion each 'legal' one may have a point written in to a run) that they have to arbitrate. This is undesirable because folks with that flaw will be unwelcome, and GM's who enforce it may receive complaints for it.

If it's a positive, it then becomes in the player's best interest to play it, or they lose the quality (and points spent) in whatever advantage they have from it. This is the same for the "Reputation" qualities.

Making it a positive quality they can lose encourages both good roleplay, and a more fair environment. Rather than punish a group for a quality, it encourages the player to act it out, or possibly lose that part of their reputation.

This is something I think would be far more easier to track in a SRM GM's checklist... which is again, probably the point they're negating them to begin with. Those negative qualities may be fine on a regular GM's campaign, but keeping them sorted among many GM's in many different runs... they either have to be built into the runs specifically, or lack the value that a regular GM is assumed would create environments that would encourage the negative qualities as they stand.

Anything else just makes them a pain to other players that will likely get the GM reported for messing up the game at the group's expense.

Crunch~
« Last Edit: <06-16-18/0633:28> by Streetsam_Crunch »

Bamce

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« Reply #50 on: <06-16-18/0943:19> »
Not all concepts are fit for all games. Many of these codes and other banned qualities are to ensure a standard of expectations for gms and players when they setup a game.

There are a handful of reddit communities based around playing missions style shadowrun, each with different levels of house rules. There is also the shadowcasters that have moved into the online missions format.

Marcus

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« Reply #51 on: <06-16-18/1321:13> »
Not all concepts are fit for all games. Many of these codes and other banned qualities are to ensure a standard of expectations for gms and players when they setup a game.

There are a handful of reddit communities based around playing missions style shadowrun, each with different levels of house rules. There is also the shadowcasters that have moved into the online missions format.

Yeah thus the too disruptive category.

As to the second that's great and i'm happy the community does what the community does, and hopefully if these are adopted then maybe they will find them useful. If not no problem one way or the other.

 
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #52 on: <06-16-18/1518:48> »
I enjoy our arguments too, Marcus.  And when I say argument I mean discussions of different points of view.. it's never been personal and I'm glad to hear you see it the same way.  I too place value on hearing someone challenge my opinion.

Some more thoughts on other Codes you'd like to discuss for SRM evaluation:

Tier 1 (15 PTS, RAW wording, Applicable, Enforceable, Non-disruptive)


Assassin’s Creed: A character never kills anyone
that they are not paid to kill. Being precise as an
assassin, not leaving collateral damage, and be-
ing invisible are important hallmarks of those
who believe in the Assassin’s Creed.

This one already is legal per the FAQ, so it needn't be evaluated by us but can serve as a baseline of what a SRM CoH should look like:  It imposes a real restriction on the player but better still it doesn't impact the other players at all, nor does it require the GM to handle your character in any special way.

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THE PATH OF THE SAMURAI
Restriction: May not kill anyone from surprise or via
treachery. May not break his word once given.

Comparing it to the Assassin's Code: I think it meets at least two of the same ticks: doesn't negatively impact the other players nor the GM.  The first tick though, where it has to impart some sort of a restriction on your character isn't quite met.  If it were may not attack from surprise or from treachery, perhaps.  But beating someone within a millimeter of their life but stopping shy of outright killing them in an ambush situation?  Seems against the spirit of what the Code is trying to convey.  Honestly, all you have to do to get free karma out of this CoH is just slap a clip full of Stick-N-Shock rounds into your gun before the bushwacking begins.  If you play it by the spirit of how one understands the "Code of the Samurai" as opposed to just the RAW of the quality... well you get into table variation on what exactly IS the Code of the Samurai.  But more than that, I think many GMs would interpret the Code as being incompatible with willfully looking the other way while your team acts in dishonorable ways.. it wouldn't necessarily be enough that YOUR character acts honorably.  Whereas in comparison the Assassin's code has no reasonable assumption that the Assassin wouldn't associate with sloppy killers.

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THE PALADIN’S CODE (A.K.A. ELVEN CHIVALRY)
Restriction: Cannot break one’s word. Cannot harm the
innocent. Must not allow art or beauty to come to harm.

As opposed to the Samurai Code, this one uses "harm" as its delineator rather than "kill".  Makes it much more apt to satisfy tick #1 (it must give a meaningful impact to the character who has the code)  "Must not allow art or beauty to come to harm" is potentially a problem for tick #2, however (shouldn't impact the other characters at the table).  However, I don't think this potential snag is a deal breaker as it doesn't really seem, given my (admittedly limited) exposure to SRM material really ever insists on measuring mission success/failure on sheer mayhem/destruction.  The only real threat to the other players if your character were to have this particular code, in my view, is that you're going to be strongly against any plan that involves senseless destruction of art (or perhaps natural beauty).  For tick #3 (negatively impacting the GM) it's really on the GM to rule what counts as "art or beauty" for the purposes of the code circumstance by circumstance.  The GM decides for him or herself how much of a problem the Code is going to be.  Is that stained glass window the party wants to smash for ingress/egress going to penalize the Paladin if he allows it to happen?  Is killing that amazing looking person considered harming "beauty"?  Is allowing the merc to blow up that sleek sports car currently chasing the team a code violation?  On one hand it's good for the GM because he's only stuck with as much trouble handling as he wants.  On the other it's bad for table consistency.

All in all though, the question of whether or not to destroy "art or beauty" doesn't really come up much in practice, so while this code isn't quite up to the treble standard set by the Assassin's Code, it's close enough imo that maybe it's fine for SRM.

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THE SOLDIER’S CODE
Restriction: Must obey orders from superiors. Must not
loot the dead or allow them to be looted. Must not lie to
superiors. Must maintain honorable conduct and obey
the rules of war. May never torture or harm prisoners.

This is five rules.  Presumably, equally important.  So I'll treat them all as one for the purposes of the triple standard set by the Assassin's Code.  Does it give a reasonable restriction to the character?  Only rules 4 and 5.  1 thru 3 may as well not be there, as almost all the time the players are all doing those things anyway.    Does it negatively impact the other players who's characters don't have this code?  Potentially 4, but moreso 5 (no torturing/harming prisoners).  The Soldier being against some blowtorches and wrenches being used in an "interrogation" is a plausible threat to party dynamics.  Arguably however, the Soldier can simply excuse himself from some hard interrogation and permit the party to play hardball with some captured mooks without his direct involvement.  Does it negatively impact the GM:  No.

However, it does look to run afoul of table variation.  What exactly are the "rules of war" that you have to follow?  I've sat through more than 20 years of annual training on the Laws of Warfare, but many other GMs haven't.  The sorts of things you're required to do to avoid being an unlawful combatant are exactly the sorts of things Shadowrunners do as a matter of course (concealing your identity being foremost among them) And more to the point, who's the authority on what the Rules of Warfare even are in the Sixth world anyway?  IIRC there's not a 5th edition sourcebook that even addresses the military/merc trade. 

While I'd say the Soldier's Code meets the standard set by the Assassin's Code.. the large potential for table variation on interpreting how the soldier must behave to satisfy tenet #4 makes it iffy for SRM.

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Warrior’s Code:  character will not kill an unarmed person, take lethal action
against an opponent who is unaware or unprepared
for an attack (i.e., a guard who doesn’t
know the runner is there), or knowingly take an
action that could kill someone who is defenseless
(i.e., from a stray bullet or allow someone to
be killed from a sniper shot). The character loses
1 Karma per unarmed or defenseless person that
they kill or allow to be killed through their actions.

Warrior's Code occupies a special place for SRM consideration, as it's called out as the counter example that's explicitly banned to Assassin's Code that's explicitly permitted.  As for why, I'm not sure.  I would imagine that it has the very real threat of being the cause of party arguments that boil over into player arguments.  The Warrior will be penalized for permitting the rest of the party to violate the terms of his Code, so it's pretty well a hard fail on standard #2.  It puts the table in a position of the Warrior quitting the mission, or everyone else playing by his Code.

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Like a Boss (This is Already Legal so I'm gonna leave it alone.)

Tier 2 ( 5 PTS, RAW wording 2 of 3 Applicable, Enforceable, Non-disruptive)

OMERTA, THE CODE OF SILENCE
Restriction: Cannot kill police officers. Cannot oppose
a superior in the family. Must not give information to
legal authorities.
(This goes into 2 b/c Cannot Oppose a Superior in the families, isn't likely Applicable)

I think this fails standard #1 (must impart a meaningful restriction on the character).  Smart runners aren't killing cops anyway.  Can't oppose a superior you don't have (may not have Made Man in Neo-Tokyo).  Runners aren't ratting each other out in SRM anyway.  Arguably they're not even allowed to as it'd be indirect/passive aggressive PvP.

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THE CODE OF WUXIA
Restriction: May not harm the innocent. May never
accept bribes or misuse authority. May not serve the
corrupt.
(The first one works, the 2nd mostly work but also a little bit don't I'm splitting the difference and putting it in 2, may need end up in 3.)

Whereas some Codes surely work in a Home game but maybe not in a SRM context.. I'm honestly having trouble seeing how this even works in a home game.  Maybe as an NPC code for non-shadowrunners?  Never serving a Mr Johnson or Tanaka-san means you don't go on Shadowruns.

Quote
HARMONY WITH NATURE, THE SHAMAN’S CODE
Restriction: May only Bind spirits after agreeing to a
fair exchange of services (see below) Must always treat
spirits with respect. Must honor deals made with spirits.
(The first one is missions disruptive but i think the other two hold.)

Sounds like a nightmare on standard #3 (not putting a burden on the GM)

Quote
Tier 3 ( 3 PTS, RAW wording, rarely applicable or rarely enforceable, but still non-disruptive )

WHITE HATS, THE CODE OF THE HACKER
Restriction: Cannot destroy/erase information. May
edit if, and only if, a copy is kept safe and easy to return.
(This is tough it's a good code, just rarely happens)

I dunno, seems kind of disruptive/violation of Assassin's Code standard #2.  I say this because if you're a hacker with this code, you're either betraying the code or betraying your team (or if hired to eliminate evidence, betray your employer).  "Yeah, you're edited out of the camera feeds."  *mm but of course I have the original, unedited feeds stored here in this folder that's easy for the security team to restore once they find it....*

This is absolutely the kind of Code that might fly in a home game where everyone knows you have the code and are ok with your shenanigans... that's not a standard that can work in organized play though.

Quote
THE AKICHITA CODE
Restriction: Never show fear. Challenge your strength
against worthy foes. Do not allow yourself or your
loved ones to fall into decadence or slothful behavior.
Never harm the weak or innocent.
(Love this code to much stuff not really define to make into the other two.)

Well on one hand I don't know how thematically appropriate/common it'll be for a Neo-Tokyo campaign, but but on the other there's no rule saying you can't play an Amerind in Japan plus the North American/Chicago Campaign is still legal for play, so this code is still worth discussing.  Seems like a breeze to satisfy thresholds 2 and 3.  It's just a question of whether it's adequately restricting the character for any karma it gives, which in my opinion it does.  Honestly I'd have to say since Assassin's Code is legal I don't see any good reason this shouldn't be.

Quote
BUSHIDO 2.0
Restriction: Must always follow the commands of
one’s superiors, no matter the personal cost.
(Too little information. Probably it should be removed totally but I'd really like to have Bushido 2.0 in for NT.)

I dunno about this. Seems it needs attention more from the errata team than the SRM team.  As is however,  I'd support keeping it banned just on account of being so poorly defined.  Besides, what little is there is begging for a threshold 2 failure. 
Everyone but the Bushido Code PC: "Ok, yeah screw this we're backing off and trying a new approach."
Bushido Code PC: "We were ordered to do this, and I'm doing it with or without you!  BANZAAAAIIIII!!"
One PC to another" Can I have his stuff after he's dead?"

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THE CODE OF THE WHITE HAT
Restriction: Must not take advantage of law-abiding
Matrix users. May not use lethal code against fellow
deckers
(I really want to put this in category 2, but it's just rarely applicable one.)

Whereas this satisfies tenets 2 and 3, I'm not sure it meets #1.  Whereas perhaps being legal for SRM but at a lower karma return could be possible, that seems to be just as much overhead required as rewriting it would have.  I'm not convinced creating tiers of Codes at different karma values is the best approach, but this certainly could be a code that could support the idea.

Quote
THE HERMETIC CODE
Restriction: Never destroy information, especially
magical knowledge. Always speak the truth and denounce
falsehood. Capture rare things intact rather
than destroy the unknown.

Always speaking the truth and denouncing falsehoods sounds like a nightmare companion for the Face to have along.  Almost entertainingly so, if it didn't have pretty severe implications outside negotiations with Mr Johnson/Tanaka-san.
Covert Ops character: "Hi Mr Security Guard, as you can see from our totally not faked passes, we're the deliverymen with a totally not suspicious package for the good folks up on the thirteenth floor!"
Hermetic: "*cough* Actually, Mr Security guard....."

If the Hermetic is bound to denounce falsehoods, he's pretty much an un-viable teammate for a Shadowrun.  Maybe better as a code for NPCs.

Quote
To disruptive
 THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH
Restriction: Must provide medical aid if able. Must not
use lethal medicine. Must keep a patient’s confidence.

(Tragically this is probably to table disruptive, in the sense that medical aid to the enemy is almost certainly gonna draw wraith. As much as I personally like the code, I'm not ready or willing to drop it in 3.)

Actually, I don't see this as being particularly disruptive.  Providing medical aid doesn't have to mean "healing all damage".  Slapping a trauma patch on each of the security guards or thriller killers the gunbois and razorgrrls put into physical overflow isn't going to ruin the party dynamics.  IMO being required to expend finite/nuyen tracked medical supplies on behalf of any violently defeated NPCs makes for satisfying the first check.  The only teammates that should be put out by the party medic taking a combat round or three after the fight to stabilize the enemy are the frothing at the mouth killdozer types (which SRM already frowns upon by banning those relevant qualities) and certainly no trouble is incurred on the GM so check #3 passes.  All in all, I'd say since Assassin Code is legal, I don't see any reason why Hippcratic can't be.
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Marcus

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« Reply #53 on: <06-16-18/2244:03> »
This will be lot of material to cover, but lets begin where we agree, and work our way from there.

Tier 1
Assassin's Creed (Already Legal) serves a fine bases for discussion, I'm good with all that.

Path of Samurai- In general I agree with what you said, and I'm very firm believe in Stick-N-Shock, bushwhacking or otherwise.
I do think the "May not kill" is tricky, and I agree it lead to table variation, but I think it holds up. For me it's an intent question, you didn't set out to kill, which isn't to say i would hit the penalty if they did kill the target by accident cause I sure as heck would.
So are you good Path of Samurai? Do you wanna knock it down a tier?

Paladin's Code- Again I agree there is room for confusion on beauty, but I don't think its so extreme that should disallow it. Common sense should server as a reasonable guide. I feel particularly strongly about this one being legal, just b/c compared to say Like a Boss, this is reasonably common sense, and I think will be fun to have in play.

The Soldier's Code, I don't feel strongly about this, I agree there's lots of definitional issues. I love the 4th ed military/Merc book, and I do think most folks could manage this sensibly. But if you think it's to close to the line, would you recommend tier 2 tier 3 or just dropping it?


Warrior Code, for me, I read it more from a strict judgement of their actions, I don't see it as they need to project their morality upon the group. So I don't see an inherent conflict between the two. But I follow your argument and I certainly under where you're coming from with that. I think have opposite codes at a table is good. I like that sort of interpersonal challenge adds a nice element to the run, sort of like the kill contest between Gimly and Legolas. But I agree you can't put a character in a position where he would be force to violate his code to complete the mission. 

So that brings us to tier 2.
Code of Silence The standard runner won't do this anyway isn't that i'm gonna get to hung up on. A code of Honor restriction still holds even when you were gonna follow it anyways. Runner don't kill the innocent as general rule, but I'm still happy to have it in a code. The superior things is why I dropped it to tier 2. As I agree it won't ever come up. Stone walling cops I think can come up, and further I think applicable and enforcable. Mostly b/c I think we will see a lot of the NT policy. (I'm doing my best not call them the tank police.)

Wuxia- A Johnson or Tanaka-san isn't an inherently corrupt figure. The Wuxia conflict isn't with private business or breaking the law. All the real Wuxia were all by definition outlaws, their conflict centers  about corruption within the bureaucracy of the Emperor's government which victimizes the people, and yes of course we talk two fundamental different emperors. But there there isn't any actually reason, if we wanna paint with big strokes. So long as the Wuxia is serving the will of heaven, and son the heaven, the emperor then fundamentally their isn't any conflict with this. I put it in tier 2 b/c accepting bribery and abuse of Authority is meaningless in 99% of runs.
 
Harmony with Nature
The first isn't possible in missions no question, but treating spirits with respect is applicable, enforceable and non-disruptive.
As is must honor deal, it does put some work on the GM but it only observational work. Did the player treat spirit with respect yes/no?
Did player honor deal with spirit? Yes/No? I think it's doable in tier 2 with the first one negated.

Tier 3
Code of the white hat
Two points in it's tier 3 so you can ignore requirement 2 totally, and secondly it doesn't actually say you have to give it back, just that you have to have the option to do so. Those are not the same things by a long shot.  Regardless 2nd requirement is negated anyways so I think it's reasonable in 3, but for exactly your concern i moved this too three.


THE AKICHITA CODE
I really like but there definitions that caused me to place it in tier 3. I think it's workable in general but family isn't well defined, does it mean your runner team? Decadence who's sense? Native American cultures were as varied in opinion about some concepts as modern Amercan cultures are. Are drugs Decadent? Are they tools for expanding your mind? Are some allowed and others not? Challenge your strength agianst worth foes? So are you allowed to sneak past a fight? How does one know if a foe is worthy?
I put it in 3 for those reasons. Do you think it should go else where?
 
Disallowed

Hippocratic- I'm concerned about post fight healing of the bad guys, what happens when X and Y bad guys are in overflow boxes and are going to die if the character doesn't sit then for 2 mins heal them? If it's going to put you into police response time?  If your shooters fail to kill your wetwork target are you obligated to walk over and slap patch'em? I took this off the list b/c I thought the potential for table disrption was too high. You think think this should go else where? Which Tier?

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« Reply #54 on: <06-17-18/0203:07> »
One thing we're not in full agreement on is the entire basis of tiering Codes.  I'm seeing them in a binary way.  They're either appropriate for SRM or not appropriate SRM.  And for the codes not appropriate, it doesn't matter what their karma cost should be.

So going back over my view, I see I added a 4th criterion for SRM appropriateness partway through.  In my eyes, a Code has to meet a four-fold check to be appropriate for SRM:
1) Does it impart a meaningful negative on the character
2) Does it do 1) without negatively impacting the other characters
3) Does it do 1) and 2) without negatively impacting the GM
4) Does it do 1) 2) and 3) while avoiding likely table variation (enforcement) issues?

SRM makes Assassin's Creed legal, and that's the baseline we're agreeing to work from.  It meets all 4 checks.

In my view the only other codes that meet all 4 checks are:
Paldin's Code (soft on #4, but not unplayably so)
Akichita Code
Hippocratic Code (I double checked this edition's incarnation of Trauma patches.  Yep, if you use them wireless on, they auto-stabilize with no check needed.  If the team pressures the Combat Medic into not having the couple of minutes to first aid the dying opposition, he can just take a few seconds to slap patch them.  500=Y= per opponent put into overflow is literally the backstop of a price for having this code :) )

So I'm not seeing as large an influx of codes that I agree are SRM appropriate.  More thoughts on the other codes as to why I don't think they're SRM appropriate even if their karma return were lessened:

Samurai: It's too easy to abuse the letter of the rule for it to satisfy the first check.  Since you can do anything shy of killing a target, it's not much of a restriction.  Especially the way damage and armor interact (heavily armored targets are about impossible to accidentally kill anyway; they'll go down from a full stun monitor LONG before their lives are threatened, even w/o using nonlethal ammo) For me to support this code in SRM, it'd have to be rewritten as opposed to re-valued.

Soldier's Code:  I'm iffy on this.  It only snags on the 4th check, and that could be straightened out with a point of clarification in the FAQ regarding the Code of Honor writeup that's already discussing Assassin/Warrior.  With some guidance from the SRM team about what "complying with the laws of war" means in a practical sense for shadowrunners, this could work in SRM without errata to rewrite it.

Wuxia: Ok, maybe the odd Mr. Johnson/Tanaka-san is an honorable lawbreaker.  I'm sure some are.  They're the exceptions.  Unless you're doing the equivalent of a "Working for the People" SRM mission, odds are you're helping someone corrupt do something nasty to someone else.  Let's be crazy and say a whopping 50% of Johnsons out there are straight enough to not violate your Wuxia code to work for them.  That still means that character can't go on the other 50% of missions.  It's just not tenable for SRM to presume you always get to be Robin Hood.

Code of Silence:  You can't play a member of a syndicate/family/gumi/ring/tong/etc in Neo-Tokyo.  If you have a Made Man in Chicago, ok that's one thing.  But it's got zero appropriateness for Neo-Tokyo.  You just can't play a character to which the code might apply.  However in an exclusively Chicago campaign setting with a character that also has the Made Man quality:  I'm still having trouble seeing it satisfy check #1.  Shadowrunners shouldn't be getting bonus karma to be forced to do stuff they're already doing anyway.  Beyond that, there's the potential for serious trouble on #2 if the SRM mission at hand involves the PC's syndicate as adversaries.  AND even if 1 and 2 weren't an issue, there's problems on point #3.  The PC must obey the syndicate's bosses.  Well, the GM runs them.  Either the GM doesn't have them give the PC orders for him to be required to follow, or he is put in the position of having to invent what orders the bosses have for the PC with regards to the mission.  Which will in turn in all probability cause new problems on point #2.  I'm really thinking this code is a hard No Go for SRM, even for a character that legally has Made Man.

Harmony With Nature: If the current topic about importing Spirit Index (or creating a SRM equivalent) over in the combined FAQ discussion thread produces changes to SRM.. maybe.  Without a SRM-approved way to track how a mage handles his spirits however, I can't see this code working.  Hard fail on #3 AND #4.

Code of the White Hat: I think it's got check #4 problems. Namely, what counts as making the original unedited data "safe and easy to return".  And the other players whos characters are appearing on those unedited camera feeds are really gonna care how that answer plays out.  Not a hard fail on #2, but it's a minefield.  Requires very careful treading.

« Last Edit: <06-17-18/0213:47> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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Marcus

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« Reply #55 on: <06-17-18/0345:41> »
I believe the binary method is too limiting. Using that we will only ever gonna add a handful more codes back in. Even if we went with all the ones we could agree on, i doubt we'd get more then 5. My purposed tiered method allowing for the reducing of the quality value for reducing the effects of  some constraints will let us get many more in, simply by writing off those code requirements that fail whatever criterion we agree on. 5 and 3 can still be meaningful flaws and meaningful codes to help structure characters.

Yes there will still be codes that we can't put in, and that's fine. I doubt we both will ever fully agree on everything particularly exact definitions of the criteria and to me that's working as it should. The list should be a compromise of what we both agree is applicable, playable, enforceable and non-disruptive.  But if we can go from 3 legal codes 10+ legal codes we will have made meaningful progress even if a good number of those come in at lower level.

To be clear i'm not hard set on 5 or 3, i put it forward b/c too me it was easy point value, but I'm perfectly willing to move on the number of tiers and values of those tiers, and of course the effect being in those tiers have. 

I'm willing to give on the Hippocratic oath and try it out a full value.

Akichita still has to many questions unanswered, but I'd be willing to consider tiered version.

On the Samurai Code it looks like we are stuck for right now. I don't have an issue with it. So will have to come back to this one.

On the Solider's code i'm open to discussion of a more explicit definition of Law war, so if you have suggestions I'm fine with looking at that.

Like I said Wuxia doesn't overly care if your doing illegal things for criminals. So long as the Johnson aren't corrupt government bureaucrats, working for them should be acceptable, yes there could be exception, but most corp Johnsons aren't going to super corrupt monsters, they are going to be professional corporate Johnsons, which should not trigger corrupt. Yes there could a few other exceptions mission that lead to government corruption would twig the code, as well anything that works against the Neo-Imperial Restoration and yes there isn't any way around that. But we have no idea where NT missions will fall on that issue. I'm HOPING the runners will be in support of the Neo-Imperial Restoration, so long as that is the case Wuxia should work fine. But any run that was counter would be game breaker for such a character. But  I don't see them going the other ways, as doing so would mostly likely result in the runner getting kicked out of NT. Most runs aren't going to be political, so I doubt it will be large scale problem. If one the regular johnson is a some super corrupt well known Yakaza oubun i could see it not working, But very much doubt that will be the case.

I don't feel overly strongly on Code of Silence but I don't see why an ex-mobster can't be played in the NT setting, the argument that you can't play character that it would applicable doesn't gel with me.  So it looks like we will have to re-explore that and see if those points can be addressed.

I don't have an issue with spirit index thing, the exposure to BGC raising Index is very potentially a killer problem for index though. Spirit index needs to be in to prevent players from massively abusing the spirit rules, it should not be a means to screw mages over b/c they happened hang out near some place medium background count. So Table Harmony until we get clarification on what happens with spirit index.

White hat has some issues but I think it should be doable, I would suggest just putting it in a lower tier and clarifying away the problems on number two, to make explicit the PC never has to "return" the data.

So from my point of view what it seems like we agree on is as follows:
Tier 1- In for Full points- RAW
Assassin's Creed
Paladin's Code
Warrior Code
Hippocratic Oath
Like a Boss

Under discussion-
Way of the Samurai
Akichita
Soldier Code
Wuxia
Code of Silence
Harmony with Nature
White Hat
Bushido 2.0

Banned-
Thug Life
Code of the Good Cop
Hermetic code

What are your thoughts?
« Last Edit: <06-17-18/0432:05> by Marcus »
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« Reply #56 on: <06-20-18/2033:48> »
I'm pretty much fully in agreement with Bamce here. 

Basically, what's being said is "I want a bunch of points to play my character a certain way."  Ultimately, that's what its coming down to.  You want guidelines for how you're going to RP a character and have them behave, and you want to be rewarded for it with some extra points for Chargen.

If a specific Code of Honor is so crucial to your character, just roleplay it.  You don't need points for it.

And frankly, quit badgering Jayde to change things.  Missions will occasionally make minor tweaks to smooth over rough patches for Organized Play, but at the end of the day Missions is supposed to be run as close to By The Book as possible.  Missions exists solely to support the game line (and help sell product), not to create become a seperate game with a ton of house rules.

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« Reply #57 on: <06-20-18/2113:04> »
And frankly, quit badgering Jayde to change things.  Missions will occasionally make minor tweaks to smooth over rough patches for Organized Play, but at the end of the day Missions is supposed to be run as close to By The Book as possible.  Missions exists solely to support the game line (and help sell product), not to create become a seperate game with a ton of house rules.

WTF Bull?
I asked a question, he asked make me to make my case, I have been doing just that. This constitutes Badgering? I'm frankly at a loss. If you guys don't want to deal with this now, then deal with in the book drops. But if that's how you want it, then I'm just done.


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« Reply #58 on: <06-20-18/2121:28> »
And frankly, quit badgering Jayde to change things.  Missions will occasionally make minor tweaks to smooth over rough patches for Organized Play, but at the end of the day Missions is supposed to be run as close to By The Book as possible.  Missions exists solely to support the game line (and help sell product), not to create become a seperate game with a ton of house rules.

WTF Bull?
I asked a question, he asked make me to make my case, I have been doing just that. This constitutes Badgering? I'm frankly at a loss. If you guys don't want to deal with this now, then deal with in the book drops. But if that's how you want it, then I'm just done.




It was more of a general comment than anything specific to you, Marcus.  Sorry if it came off that way.  I've just seen a lot of that with Neo Tokyo, with a whole pile of comments and questions here and elsewhere that are basically "Can we change a bunch of SR5 rules because of reasons?"

Do keep in mind as well, I don't actually have anything to do with Missions anymore beyond knowing some history and being friends with a lot of these guys, and I've mostly stepped back from doing any SR work officially at CGL at all due to real life and health issues.  So I'm not speaking with any authority here.  Just trying to offer up suggestions to keep people from overcomplicating things.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #59 on: <06-20-18/2129:13> »
And frankly, quit badgering Jayde to change things.  Missions will occasionally make minor tweaks to smooth over rough patches for Organized Play, but at the end of the day Missions is supposed to be run as close to By The Book as possible.  Missions exists solely to support the game line (and help sell product), not to create become a seperate game with a ton of house rules.

WTF Bull?
I asked a question, he asked make me to make my case, I have been doing just that. This constitutes Badgering? I'm frankly at a loss. If you guys don't want to deal with this now, then deal with in the book drops. But if that's how you want it, then I'm just done.




It was more of a general comment than anything specific to you, Marcus.  Sorry if it came off that way.  I've just seen a lot of that with Neo Tokyo, with a whole pile of comments and questions here and elsewhere that are basically "Can we change a bunch of SR5 rules because of reasons?"

Do keep in mind as well, I don't actually have anything to do with Missions anymore beyond knowing some history and being friends with a lot of these guys, and I've mostly stepped back from doing any SR work officially at CGL at all due to real life and health issues.  So I'm not speaking with any authority here.  Just trying to offer up suggestions to keep people from overcomplicating things.

Speaking as one that's been asking (and been extremely appreciative of) Jayde...

not so much "can we change some SR5 rules" as "can we CLARIFY some SR5 rules..."  As they say no good deed goes unpunished, and he's been more helpful in a few weeks than the errata team has in 5 years :(
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.