[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Yeah that's close to how I have it. I figure the UCAS (which I renamed the FSA for fun) is a centralized, top down almost fascist state disguised as a representative democracy.

Fascist, but toothless on domestic and economic affairs?

I don't know if the board has rules against bringing politics into the threads.. but assuming they do all I'll say further on it is this:

As a dystopian future, the 'Red' CAS is what the left fears would ever happen, and the 'Blue' UCAS is what would exist in the right's worst nightmare.

[ImaginalDisc]

Yeah that's close to how I have it. I figure the UCAS (which I renamed the FSA for fun) is a centralized, top down almost fascist state disguised as a representative democracy.

Fascist, but toothless on domestic and economic affairs?

I don't know if the board has rules against bringing politics into the threads.. but assuming they do all I'll say further on it is this:

As a dystopian future, the 'Red' CAS is what the left fears would ever happen, and the 'Blue' UCAS is what would exist in the right's worst nightmare.

That's fair, it's just that governments in Shadowrun are, canonically, far weaker. I'm pretty sure the big ten each have bigger budgets than the  UCAS.

[Michael Chandra]

By the way, UCAS and CAS have been getting closer apparently politically, according to mission 3 of Firing Line.

[Mirikon]

Not surprising, honestly. I'm certain there's plenty of people who realize that now, with the magical playing field leveled, if the CAS and UCAS joined forces, they could stand up to the NAN. There's always been certain influential people who wanted to rebuild the old USA.

[ImaginalDisc]

The makes me wonder what the UCAS and CAS would about Seattle and California if they united.

I think they'd absolutely leave Denver alone.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

That's fair, it's just that governments in Shadowrun are, canonically, far weaker. I'm pretty sure the big ten each have bigger budgets than the  UCAS.

True, but between populations of the Sixth world being much lower than real life, and getting to ignore the needs of the SINless as well, the governments of Shadowrun don't have as much overhead anymore, either.  They can cater to much more 'manageable' constituencies.

[grid_roamer]

That's fair, it's just that governments in Shadowrun are, canonically, far weaker. I'm pretty sure the big ten each have bigger budgets than the  UCAS.

True, but between populations of the Sixth world being much lower than real life, and getting to ignore the needs of the SINless as well, the governments of Shadowrun don't have as much overhead anymore, either.  They can cater to much more 'manageable' constituencies.

Populations are lowered true....
 But 80% of the world is now unhabitable giving rise to food shortages.
Yet there are still the super rich and the super poor, even fewer individuals dominating the economic circle.
The budget doesn't matter if your whole country is dying...

[Magnaric]

 But 80% of the world is now unhabitable giving rise to food shortages.
[/quote]

Uhm, am I missing something from 5th? Where are you getting that number from?

[DeathStrobe]

But 80% of the world is now unhabitable giving rise to food shortages.

Uhm, am I missing something from 5th? Where are you getting that number from?

It might not be an untrue guesstimation. There have been a LOT of ecological disasters like toxic spills and powerplanets going nuclear since the awakening. And on top of that nature has made one hell of a comeback with awaken critters and plants and wild spirits now roaming around the wilderness trying to keep "civilized" folks out of it.

[ImaginalDisc]

I think more data is needed.

http://www.learner.org/courses/envsci/unit/text.php?unit=7&secNum=2

[ChewyGranola]

Yeah that's close to how I have it. I figure the UCAS (which I renamed the FSA for fun) is a centralized, top down almost fascist state disguised as a representative democracy.

Fascist, but toothless on domestic and economic affairs?

No...I didnt mean to imply that if I did. From how I take canon, governments are far from powerless, but they have a lot more to deal with in terms of magic, megacorps, etc so they are meaner and more desperate.

So, yeah, I personally don't interpret the UCAS as toothless domestically or economically, and I would not run the FSA that way either. Just my $0.02.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

But 80% of the world is now unhabitable giving rise to food shortages.

Uhm, am I missing something from 5th? Where are you getting that number from?

It might not be an untrue guesstimation. There have been a LOT of ecological disasters like toxic spills and powerplanets going nuclear since the awakening. And on top of that nature has made one hell of a comeback with awaken critters and plants and wild spirits now roaming around the wilderness trying to keep "civilized" folks out of it.

Was thinking about this, and did a little research...

At current growth rates, population IRL will hit an estimated 9.2 billion by 2050; SR had a couple of pretty serious plagues, but generally it's accepted that 1988 Shadowrun had 5 billion inhabitants in 2050, and current SR has roughly 7 billion - in other words, SR's population sticks with current RL numbers for convenience's sake.

Earth's land surface is only about 29.2% of its surface area.  Of that area ...

Currently the total arable land is 13.31% of the land surface, with only 4.71% supporting permanent crops.  Close to 40% of the Earth's land surface is presently used for cropland and pasture, or an estimated 1.3×107 km² of cropland and 3.4×107 km² of pastureland.

Therefore, approximately 11.68% of the current world is being used for cropland and pasture, with, I would guess, maybe another couple percent that's city and the rest - so let's be generous and call it 14%.  That's already 85% of the world that's not lived on - and half of the land area (14.6% of the planet's total surface area) is either desert (14%), high mountains (27%), or other less suitable terrain.  (Third paragraph of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth#Human_geography.)  So really, we're already living on less than 20% of the earth's surface.  If you're talking 80% of the land surface, though, you're going from living/farming/growing on 14% to living/farming/growing on 5.8%.

Considering the disasters, plagues, etc. - yeah, from 14% to 5.8% is within (the top end of) the realm of possibility.  Considering how aquaculture and high-yield protein 'crops' (mycoprotein, soy, etc.) is so important in the SR world, and even middle-class people eat it with moderate regularity ... y'know, going from 50% to 20% of the land mass lived on isn't too far-fetched.

[ImaginalDisc]

But 80% of the world is now unhabitable giving rise to food shortages.

Uhm, am I missing something from 5th? Where are you getting that number from?

It might not be an untrue guesstimation. There have been a LOT of ecological disasters like toxic spills and powerplanets going nuclear since the awakening. And on top of that nature has made one hell of a comeback with awaken critters and plants and wild spirits now roaming around the wilderness trying to keep "civilized" folks out of it.

Was thinking about this, and did a little research...

At current growth rates, population IRL will hit an estimated 9.2 billion by 2050; SR had a couple of pretty serious plagues, but generally it's accepted that 1988 Shadowrun had 5 billion inhabitants in 2050, and current SR has roughly 7 billion - in other words, SR's population sticks with current RL numbers for convenience's sake.

Earth's land surface is only about 29.2% of its surface area.  Of that area ...

Currently the total arable land is 13.31% of the land surface, with only 4.71% supporting permanent crops.  Close to 40% of the Earth's land surface is presently used for cropland and pasture, or an estimated 1.3×107 km² of cropland and 3.4×107 km² of pastureland.

Therefore, approximately 11.68% of the current world is being used for cropland and pasture, with, I would guess, maybe another couple percent that's city and the rest - so let's be generous and call it 14%.  That's already 85% of the world that's not lived on - and half of the land area (14.6% of the planet's total surface area) is either desert (14%), high mountains (27%), or other less suitable terrain.  (Third paragraph of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth#Human_geography.)  So really, we're already living on less than 20% of the earth's surface.  If you're talking 80% of the land surface, though, you're going from living/farming/growing on 14% to living/farming/growing on 5.8%.

Considering the disasters, plagues, etc. - yeah, from 14% to 5.8% is within (the top end of) the realm of possibility.  Considering how aquaculture and high-yield protein 'crops' (mycoprotein, soy, etc.) is so important in the SR world, and even middle-class people eat it with moderate regularity ... y'know, going from 50% to 20% of the land mass lived on isn't too far-fetched.

Thematically, one of Gibson's quotes always sits in my mind when examining Shadowrun, "The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed." Unless canon clearly states otherwise I assume the is just as much X to go around as there is today, but there's far more inequality and disparity. I imagine the very wealthy live lives of security and luxury that would be the envy of today's billionaires. The middle class of Shadowrun live better than today's middle class , but there are fewer of them and they have less privacy. Everyone below that line is hosed.

Sure there may be less arable, uncontaminated land for agriculture, but agriscience marches on. Today's crop yields were unimaginable in 1913. Before the Green Revolution people were seriously proposing a Malthusian population collapse due to widespread famine. Fritz Haaber and Norman Borlaug alone have saved BILLIONS of lives through artificial fertilizer and plant breeding/genetics. I'm pretty sure the agriculture of 2075 is leaps and bounds ahead of today's farming.

I'm also sure that while we can project scientific and technological progress on an exponential curve into Shadowrun, we should also project cynicism, apathy, oppression, and greed into the future. There *would* be enough to go around if everyone held hands and sang Kumbaya, but that ain't going to happen.

Corporations and governments use the perception of scarcity as a means of control. Just as the governments of 1984 used the perception of perpetual war for the same purpose. The big players in Shadowrun make us little people beg for scraps by convincing us that the poor chumps beside us are out competitors and are the reason there isn't enough to go around.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Thematically, one of Gibson's quotes always sits in my mind when examining Shadowrun, "The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed." Unless canon clearly states otherwise I assume the is just as much X to go around as there is today, but there's far more inequality and disparity. I imagine the very wealthy live lives of security and luxury that would be the envy of today's billionaires. The middle class of Shadowrun live better than today's middle class , but there are fewer of them and they have less privacy. Everyone below that line is hosed.

Sure there may be less arable, uncontaminated land for agriculture, but agriscience marches on. Today's crop yields were unimaginable in 1913. Before the Green Revolution people were seriously proposing a Malthusian population collapse due to widespread famine. Fritz Haaber and Norman Borlaug alone have saved BILLIONS of lives through artificial fertilizer and plant breeding/genetics. I'm pretty sure the agriculture of 2075 is leaps and bounds ahead of today's farming.

I'm also sure that while we can project scientific and technological progress on an exponential curve into Shadowrun, we should also project cynicism, apathy, oppression, and greed into the future. There *would* be enough to go around if everyone held hands and sang Kumbaya, but that ain't going to happen.

We do know that in the Shadowrun world agricultural output doesn't continue to improve.  It takes a huge step backwards, actually.  Most of the world no longer gets to eat 'real' food... the sort we find in grocery stores today is only available to the privileged and wealthy.  Most of metahumanity subsists on algae, krill, soy, and chemical additives.

[ImaginalDisc]

We do know that in the Shadowrun world agricultural output doesn't continue to improve.  It takes a huge step backwards, actually.  Most of the world no longer gets to eat 'real' food... the sort we find in grocery stores today is only available to the privileged and wealthy.  Most of metahumanity subsists on algae, krill, soy, and chemical additives.

I don't know. What you say is true, in that most people eat heavily processed cheap food products, but I suspect that the net productivity of agriculture is higher. The wealthy live much better than we do now, but the regular people fend for scraps. All it takes to create what you describe is decreased equity, not decreased productivity.

Of course, during the French Revolution the rioting peasants assumed all the rich people were hoarding food, so everything old is new again.