[imperialus]

So I haven't had a huge amount of time to skim the book so far but figured I'd get a discussion on it started...

What are your impressions so far?

I've read the first bit of the Bigota chapter, going to withhold judgment until I've read the whole thing but so far it hasn't really 'grabbed' me...  Not sure if I'd have too much use for it.

The gear chapter on the other hand I'm liking a lot...  Yes there is power creep, comlinks and programs can now go up to rating 10 but the availability and cost scales put them right around the cost of a descent piece of deltaware, which I'm cool with...  PC's aren't just going to pick up a rating 8 comlink from their friendly local fixer.

Battle Rifles fill a niche that I think has been missing in every iteration of Shadowrun prior to this.  A high powered rifle capable of SA and BF is a great option for a lot of character concepts.  I managed to jury rig one together out using the Cannon Companion rules and modding the hell out of a sporting rifle but it still didn't feel quite right.

Not only that but the power creep is focused almost entirely on the mundane.  It gives some good options for high karma mundanes and helps them keep pace with the nastiness than 3rd or 4th grade initiates can dish out in a campaign with a higher power level...  I'm not sure what I think of "Soft Weave armour" yet...  Seems to negate a lot of the disadvantages that low body characters have.  There's a few other individual pieces of gear that I'm a little leery of but they tend to be pretty situational.

[Wolfboy]

I havent been able to look at War yet, (i buy physical copies first) but it sounds like a mission set that i would love to run "Tank Girl" through, oh crap that reminds me, i havent introduced her to yall yet, damn i need to get writing again.

that said i always liked the idea of runnng black ops in the middle of a combat zone, very Mogadishu or Bosnia.

[imperialus]

Lots of room for that sort of stuff on all the different sides of the conflict.  Aztech and Amazonia are just the big ones.  The more I read into the fluff parts of the chapter the more I'm liking it.  Lots of really cool details on the ways that the face of warfare has changed by 2070.  Just as an example the Azzie vanguard was in a large part made up of blood spirits and their 'first strike' was on the magical front too and served to slow the growth of the rain forest and somehow get rid of a lot of the nature spirits that Amazonia was relying on to bolster the front lines.  Really neat to see how the conflict played out.

Yes there's typo's and editing errors but all things considered I think that Catalyst seems to be doing a fairly good job picking itself up after the past few months unpleasantness.  It's certainly a step up from some of the problems in the 6th World Almanac.  It's no Ghost Cartels or Corporate Enclaves but it's a pretty well put together book.

[Mäx]

I'm not sure what I think of "Soft Weave armour" yet...  Seems to negate a lot of the disadvantages that low body characters have.

Not really, as those characters are very unlikely to have more then 1 or 2 strength.
Except maybe for a Charisma 10 pornomancer with Mind over Machine power for charisma, allowing her to substitute charisma for strength.

[Aaron]

I'm not sure what I think of "Soft Weave armour" yet...  Seems to negate a lot of the disadvantages that low body characters have.

Not really, as those characters are very unlikely to have more then 1 or 2 strength.
Except maybe for a Charisma 10 pornomancer with Mind over Machine power for charisma, allowing her to substitute charisma for strength.

Actually, I don't think that will help when it comes to wearing armor. It looks like Mind Over Matter only allows you to substitute for tests, not for derived stats.

[Zen Shooter]

I like the concept of this book very much. A major regional shootout is a very innovative campaign concept for Shadowrun, never done before. The writing and editing, though, are often sloppy. But I'm glad to see the game recovering from the late unpleasantness.

The Ares HVBR confuses me. The advantage of the HVAR from ARS is that it fires smaller rounds faster. The HVBR from W! fires larger rounds, but only in burst-fire or semiauto. So how is it a high velocity anything?

[Caine Hazen]

Battle rifles are shite (to put it lightly); thy souldn't have made the cut at all.  The concept was approached wrong and the inelegant soution provided (they originally could go FA) just doesn't work.  I can say they'll not make any appearences at my table (mostly cause my players willuse customization rules to make them FA ayway).

But I'll save more of my SRun gun rants for other times...

[Stormdrake]

Read it yesterday and it has some interesting stuff.  As one who enjoyed the high power games that were 2nd and 3rd edition I am glad to see an option for such games in 4th. 

[FastJack]

When I read the battle rifles, I keep picturing Mass Effect assault rifles...

[Bull]

The core idea behind Battle Rifles isn't bad.  The problem is, honestly, SR4, and the way that Shadowrun has always categorized guns (and the fact that guns have no caliber outside of generic weapon class bullet size).  But the real problem was how "tight" the damage ranges are for SR4.  They don't give you a lot of wiggle room between gun classes.

And at the end of the day, the real problem is that Battle Rifles just replaced Machine Guns.  They're cheaper and easier to get, and do as much damage as a HMG.  In playtesting, they were mostly BF/FA guns (and were even cheaper than they are now), so thankfully a whole bunch of us sending in playtest notes going "Hey, these are frraggin' broken!" helped a little.  But still, as Caine points out, it won't take much to modify them to use belt feeds and to fire FA anyway.  So they end up being a cheaper and better alternative to the Machine Gun class of weapons.

Bull

[Bull]

When I read the battle rifles, I keep picturing Mass Effect assault rifles...

And yeah, I keep picturing the Halo Battle Rifle...

[Mystic]

Any more or solid good info on some of the established, high tier merc companies like MET2000, Combat Inc, or 10K Daggers? I know we get a few lines in Runner Havens, but I have been hoping for more ever sense Fields of Fire back in 2nd Ed...Also, are there any rules or guidelines for creating one in S4?

And speaking of FoF, any official word on what happened to Matador, and what if any relation to Picador? Just wondering.

[Mäx]

And at the end of the day, the real problem is that Battle Rifles just replaced Machine Guns.  They're cheaper and easier to get, and do as much damage as a HMG.

I think the problem here is with the machine gun damage ratings and not with battle rifles.
Honestly, an MMMG should have the same damage code as battle rifles and HMG should have something like 8P AP-3.

And speaking of FoF, any official word on what happened to Matador, and what if any relation to Picador? Just wondering.

Picador was Matadors second-in-command until the latter died from a snipers bullet to the head, while patrolling Salish-Tsimian border sometine in 2062.
Thats from SOTA 2063, not WAR.

[Bull]

I think the problem here is with the machine gun damage ratings and not with battle rifles.
Honestly, an MMMG should have the same damage code as battle rifles and HMG should have something like 8P AP-3.

Maybe, but at the end of the day, games should bow to a certain amount of balance "internal mechanics logic" as well. 

Stripping aside classifications, it comes down to this:  You have two guns that do 7P.  I'll even choose the most expensive, hardest to get of Gun B, and the cheapest, easiest to get of Gun A.

Gun A costs 6500¥, has a 15F Availability code, 1200 meter max range, can only fire FA, has -3 AP, and recoil comp.
Gun B costs 3600¥, has a 12F Availability code, 1500 meter max range, can fire SA and BF, has -1 AP, and 4 recoil comp.  Gun B also fire High Velocity rounds.  This is kind of an error, as originally it could fire FA, but was trimmed down.  So it does nothing in it's default state.  However, this becomes an advantage when you mod the weapon.

It costs the same amount (a small fire selection modification) to change the FA gun to BF and/or SA and the BF/SA gun to FA.

Gun B has almost all the advantages.  The only thing Gun A has going for it is FA out of the box and 2 Armor Pen, which is very nice.  But not worth double the price, especially when I can't get that gun at Character creation, whereas I can still get Gun B.

Oh, plus, Gun A uses the Heavy Weapons skill, while Gun B uses the Automatics skill.  Also important.

I only know a little bit about real world guns, and most of that comes from listening to my Airsoft MilSim playing roommate and playing video games.  I don't really care that much about "real world" gun stuff.  I'm not playing in the real world.  I'm playing in a game.  And at the end of the day, as a game designer, a GM, and even as a player, what matters to me are the weapons stats.  And when you introduce a new class of gun that completely and utterly nullifies an earlier class of gun by being cheaper, better, faster, stronger, etc...  Something is wrong.

Bull

[FastJack]

War doesn't go into great detail on the merc's groups (fluff on them written from Aufheben's perspective). But if you want more on Matador/Picador and the fall out, check out the short story Best Served Cold by Pete Taylor in the SR4A (p. 140).