[Dracain]

If we're going to argue about terms like that, perhaps each person should explains what each term means for them. After all, to me, merely optimizing your character concept doesn't equal this, either:

In gaming, a munchkin is a player who plays what is intended to be a non-competitive game (usually a role-playing game) in an aggressively competitive manner. A munchkin seeks within the context of the game to amass the greatest power, score the most "kills", and grab the most loot, no matter how detrimental their actions are to role-playing, the storyline, fairness, or the other players' enjoyment. The term is used almost exclusively as a pejorative and frequently is used in reference to powergamers.

Powergaming for me is someone who is primarily focused on creating/playing a character who is powerful even if it makes little to no sense in context, and they are willing to use cheesy rules to get that.  For example, a Mage who picked up sensitive system in 4, with no intention of getting any augmentations, just so they can get free points, is powergaming.  I generally categorize munchkining as a subtype or extension of powergaming,but say that munchkining is what happens when powergaming is taken to the extreme, with no regards to others.  A powergamer can still play with a group and care about what is/isn't fun for them, a munchkin is there for themselves. 

The problem is that, while I can understand some people having an issue with powergaming, saying that something like 14 dice, which is easy to obtain without any difficulty, is powergaming is just incorrect.  The term powergaming implies that it is different from regular gaming, with a focus on obtaining power.  If someone who hasn't played an RPG before can easily pick up the book and make a character with 14 dice just by following their concept, that is not powergaming. 

For me there are three categories. 
Powergamers makes their numbers as high as possible to give them the most power, then creates a character around that, if at all.  Cruch, then fluff, so to speak. 
Roleplayers makes a concept and makes the numbers support that, sometimes to the detriment of the crunch.  Fluff, then crunch. 
Average gamers do a little of both, the concept is there, and the numbers support it, but they might change the concept to support the numbers, or the othe way around.  Both crunch and fluff develop at the same time, each influencing each other. 

[All4BigGuns]

Just about any of the archetypes can function on 10 to 12 dice. Granted, there aren't many that are going to stop there, but that should still be the top end of where the measuring point should be when determining if something really is a problem.

[ZeConster]

Just about any of the archetypes can function on 10 to 12 dice. Granted, there aren't many that are going to stop there, but that should still be the top end of where the measuring point should be when determining if something really is a problem.

Sure, they can function on 10 to 12 dice - until they encounter Rating 4 enemies, then they'll have issues. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, to be honest.

[Michael Chandra]

Let's not forget a few of the typical tougher enemies you might face. A force 5 Air Spirit has 13 dice to attack and 14 dice to dodge, plus 13 soak dice. Meanwhile, the enemies in Dragon's Song were pretty much rating 5.5, which I liked to call "the same dice as I got".

[All4BigGuns]

Just about any of the archetypes can function on 10 to 12 dice. Granted, there aren't many that are going to stop there, but that should still be the top end of where the measuring point should be when determining if something really is a problem.

Sure, they can function on 10 to 12 dice - until they encounter Rating 4 enemies, then they'll have issues. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, to be honest.

They'll have a tough fight against those "rating 4" enemies, sure, but that only proves that the system is more designed with such pools in mind. Taking the 10 to 12 range of dice pools along with enforcing that spirits are NPCs controlled by the GM rather than pets controlled by the player, you'll probably find they're fine as-is. Hell, take that range and you'll likely discover that Mystic Adepts are fine as printed.

[ZeConster]

Again, what point are you trying to make here? That if you forbid people from having more than 12 dice in any pool at chargen, they won't be overpowered? That any player who starts with 14 dice in something is a power-gamer who should be curbed in?

[All4BigGuns]

That people are making the absurd "overpowered" claims based off of pools that are above the baseline the game is designed for.

[Michael Chandra]

If the game was designed for smaller pools, it wouldn't be dead simple to have a solid character with at least half a dozen skills at 14+. So no, the game wasn't designed purely for the low power-levels. And at the lower power-levels, even a Force 6 Spirit is already overpowered, since it has dicepools you already consider way too much.

[All4BigGuns]

How "easy" it is to get those higher pools is immaterial. If you look at the published NPC opponents, you'll see that pools of 10 to 12 would be able to defeat them (whether in combat or other actions depending on the nature of the opponent and/or the approach taken), but it may very well be a difficult prospect at the higher ratings. The Force 6 spirit may appear "overpowered" on the surface, but with Drain resist pools around the specified range, there would be quite the heavy price in damage for summoning it, so it evens out.

[Michael Chandra]

Do me a favor. Math out that heavy price in damage you're talking about. Proof that you actually know what you're talking about and aren't making gut statements here without anything to back it up.

[spoiler]Result for sha1:  3edae4199a8d8b5456af1de6141cfff5afb9f328[/spoiler]

[RHat]

Just about any of the archetypes can function on 10 to 12 dice. Granted, there aren't many that are going to stop there, but that should still be the top end of where the measuring point should be when determining if something really is a problem.

...  Just...  No.  That's ridiculous.  The minimum functioning level cannot ever be where you determine if something is too powerful.  Dealing with the range of what can exist is not optional.  In any case, at 12 dice a Force 9 spirit is still much too easy to summon.  All you've done now is establish that even at that minimum, it's a problem.

[ZeConster]

That people are making the absurd "overpowered" claims based off of pools that are above the baseline the game is designed for.

Okay, so here's my understanding of what you're saying here (please correct me if I'm wrong): "You only need dice pools of 10-12 to get by, so anyone with dice pools of 14+ is clearly a power-gamer, and you should only balance your game around the non-power-gamers." Because if that's the case, not only do I disagree with all three of those points, but someone with a summoning dice pool of 12 (which my Missions magician has, by the way) can still give birth to a monstrosity without counter-measures put into place.
If you use 2 points of Edge (1 on the summoning, 1 on the Drain resist, both on Second Chance), 12 summoning dice, 8 Drain resist dice and 3+ Body gives you a 92.11% chance of summoning a Force 9 spirit, and a 99.24% chance of not passing out (and a 99.99% chance of not dying). That is a non-"power-gamer" character that still has more than 90% chance of successfully summoning and giving a murder-them-all order to a:

• Force 9 Spirit of Air (21 attack dice, 22 dodge dice, Hardened Armor 18 versus non-magical attacks);
• or a Force 9 Spirit of Earth (16 attack dice, 17 dodge dice, Hardened Armor 18 versus non-magical attacks, 13 Body versus magical attacks);
• or a Force 9 Spirit of Man (18 attack dice, 20 dodge dice, Hardened Armor 18 versus non-magical attacks, 10 Body versus magical attacks, 18 dice on spellcasting, 18 Drain resist dice, which means they take an average of 2.17 Drain casting a Force 9 Ball Lightning, with 0.07% chance of failure, 3.20% chance of scatter, and an average damage value (if it doesn't fail) of 11.98P/-9).