[Acme]

In her 6WA pic (p 95- Year 2068), she's got a strange pyramid pin on her collar.  That could be a hint that maybe there was something shady, as we old INWO fans know that triangle could both be an in-joke or a symbol of shady affiliations.

System Failure, page 106
Standing behind the podium was a steel-haired woman in her mid fifties, wearing the dress uniform of a UCAS general. Two stars graces each shoulder, and around her neck was a small silver medal shaped like a pyramid. Haeffner knew that honor well-he had awarded it only a year ago.

I think the author intended it be a Seattle Arcology Service Medal.

Heh, well to be honest, I was in conspiracy mode, I used to play INWO so "spot the pyramid" is still implanted in my subconscious... It's also done on like a collar pin (minus any other say flag pin or UCAS Military insignia) so it just looks... odd there.  You're right, the artist prolly goofed a little and just stuck it on halfway just to try and back up that it was Colloton in that picture.

My Question 3 was indeed a question - my bad in not making that clear (should have left off the 3, i suppose).  Seeing as how Ares has lost out post-Haeffner, I'm inclined to agree that Knight/Ares are more unlikely.

Tossing in Rinelle was just as a possibility, given their relative proximity to Seattle.  Hell, Brackhaven is just as much a suspect because Nadia is an Elf in UCAS power (big no-no, according to Humanis et al).  I just looked up the 6WA entry, it says that Nadja survived an assassination attempt.  So that's on record, as is her status as Acting President.  But there's nothing to say she was sworn in.  A pro tem President and Colloton are supposed to have gotten things back from whatever brink.

The attempt could very well be Chaemera, like was suggested (a little retconning or at least making the shadowtalk to be the usual half-truth).  As far as the pro tem, while it doesn't mention who it was in the original 4e book, in the 20th Anniversary (4A) it clarifies that Najda was in fact that President pro tem that told Colloton to declare martial law until things got settled down.  That could mean that she might not have disappeared until 2068 when Colloton was elected.  Why this suggestion is put into force is a) the pro tem deal probably could have been applied due to the suspended UCAS elections, which were not held again until '68 (unlike the CAS elections which went on the next year after the coup), which means that Nadja could have been P-pt until then as there has been no mention of a missing president.

However,  I will admit that there is a semi-hole in that theory, as the writeup carried over in 4A was that "when elections were held again, we had little choice but to elect a President who ended up being nothing but a tool of the corps for his entire term".  Which implies that there may have been elections SOME TIME between '64 and '68.  I'm going on a limb here and thinking that since the UCAS and CAS elections were usually held on the same day, as they had been since at least 2060, that some time around 2/10/65 there was a UCAS special election like there was in the the south.  It may have been accidentally left off of the writeup for '65 (not like that would be the only entry to make a oops typo in there), so we got some nameless prez in for 3 1/2 years instead of Najda, though she would have been eligible.  This could in fact imply that she disappeared some time after she had Colloton declare martial law, since she was certainly popular enough to be elected President Daviar (being that Haeffner got overwhelmingly reelected in '60, and usually surviving veeps of assassinated presidents get that little extra oomph when people think about them at voting time).  That she didn't get elected/didn't run is usually backed up by mentions of her being "former Vice President".

[Nath]

You'll have a hole somewhere if you assume everything the books say are true, since they contradict each other. I have yet to find an explanation that can account for all of this :

System Failure, page 26
"Following Acting-President Daviar’s orders, Colloton declares Martial Law."

System Failure, page 106
"President Pro-Tempore Gene Simone will fulfill the duties of the President until President Haeffner and Vice President Daviar have been found. Martial law will remain in effect until the end of this crisis." [speech by General Angela Colloton]

Shadowrun 4th edition, page 34
"Under order from the President prom tem, General Angela Colloton declared martial law until the country was brought back under control.
When elections were held again, we had little choice but to elect a President who ended up being nothing but a tool of the corps during his entire term."

Running Wild, page 73
"Still ostensibly chaired by former UCAS Vice President Nadja Daviar, the [Draco Foundation] publicly works to enhance metahumanity's ability to interact effectively with the Awakened World."

Shadowrun 20th Anniversary, page 35
"Under orders from the President pro tem Nadja Daviar, General Angela Colloton declared martial law until the country was brought back under control."

Corporate Guide, page 49
"Nadja Daviar - Haeffner's vice-president and former voice of Dunkelzahn - went MIA during the UCAS coup d'état in the early days of the Crash 2.0." [comment by Frosty]

Corporate Guide, page 50
"It's only gotten worse since Nadja Daviar dropped off the face of the earth after the Haeffner assassination." [comment by Kay St. Irregular]
"Maybe the foundation decided to take a more active role in what it assumes would be Daviar's best interests." [comment by Plan 9]
"That's assuming that the foundation doesn't know Daviar's whereabouts." [comment by Frosty]

Corporate Guide, page 54
"The Draco Foundation - executor of Dunkelzahn's will - has controlled Gavilan Ventures ever since its CEO and former UCAS Vice-President Nadja Daviar went missing in 2065."

Discarding Running Wild is almost a necessity to make sense of it (remembering RW was originally planned as a 3rd edition book, a sloppy editing may explain some mistake). Also, the person who added Nadja Daviar name in the corebook history seemingly did not know what "president pro tem" stands for in the US. It might worth also noting the last quote from Corporate Guide says Daviar "went missing in 2065", which would be at least two months after the failed coup d'état. Daviar disappearing two times may provide the best explanations.

[raggedhalo]

I don't actually see too much of a contradiction.

Colloton could easily have named Gene Simone as President pro-tem before she learnt that Daviar was still alive and kicking, which would then make Daviar President pro-tem.  For whatever reason (external pressure, no desire to be President, some other factor) Daviar declares martial law.  Some new guy gets elected and is a corp puppet.  Daviar disappears sometime in 2065 (between 2 and 14 months after the Crash).

She's still listed as CEO of the Draco Foundation, so Running Wild is fine - she's not been declared dead, after all.

It's not perfect, but that's the best way I can make sense of it all.

[Nath]

Under the US Constitution, President pro tempore, or President pro tem, is an official in the Senate. The Vice President of the United States if the President of the Senate (though he can only vote when there is a tie). The Senate elects a President pro tempore to preside over in the absence of Vice President, or when he exercises the office of President of the United States (so as to maintain the separation of powers). The President pro tempore is third in line of succession to the Office of President of the United States, after the Vice President and the Speaker of the House of Representatives.

The Neo-Anarchist Guide to North America and Portfolio of a Dragon: Dunkelzahn's Secrets list a President pro tempore in the UCAS administration. NAGNA makes clear the office remains third in line of succession to the presidency of the United States.

Nadja Daviar was Vice President of the UCAS and President of the UCAS Senate. For her to become President pro tempore, she would have to resign as Vice President, get elected to the Senate and get elected President pro tempore by the Senate. Then the President pro tempore, Daviar are Gene Simmons, can become or act as President of the UCAS if the President, the Vice President and Speaker of the House are either dead, missing or unavailable.

[Acme]

Well, an easy explanation is yes, whoever used that term in the books screwed up and used it incorrectly.   He/she either meant temporary or thought that pro tem meant temporary. 

[Crimsondude]

There will never be a satisfactory answer to what happened.

[Longshot23]

There will never be a satisfactory answer to what happened.

. . . . unless someone goes out and FINDS the answer (and it ain't 42).

[Acme]

There will never be a satisfactory answer to what happened.

*Shrugs* Isn't that what speculation is for?  That's half the reason I post these, not because we're trying to nail down a 100% answer that you can use to shut everyone up, but it was meant to spur fun debate and research through the books for ideas as to what could have happened, maybe even spur on a story idea or two for people.

To reiterate the disclaimer I put up:

This isn't a wheedling plea to people like Hardy and Adam for explanations or an accusation that they screwed up on x plot point. I appreciate the hard work that everyone who's ever penned the game has put in and understand the difficulties that it takes. If someone who works/worked on Shadowrun WANTS to give a "official" explanation, great. Or they can put their own speculation in.  Grin It's all for fun.

[Crimsondude]

I am not trying to discourage discussion. But what has been written is so fraught with contradiction that it would be immensely difficult to publish a followup without explaining some of it, which does take away some of the fun and mystery, and in doing so further contradicting something. I am thinking about how attempts in other media, e.g. comics, to "fix" continuity end up fucking it up even more and that is very likely to happen in any instance of explaining the disappearance.

[Dead Monky]

What you say?  Comics never screw up continuity or have to cobble together horrible retcons to explain things.  Never. 

[Acme]

I am not trying to discourage discussion. But what has been written is so fraught with contradiction that it would be immensely difficult to publish a followup without explaining some of it, which does take away some of the fun and mystery, and in doing so further contradicting something. I am thinking about how attempts in other media, e.g. comics, to "fix" continuity end up fucking it up even more and that is very likely to happen in any instance of explaining the disappearance.

No, to me it sounds like you're discouraging discussion.  You're saying that it's never going to have an explanation so why bother.  *Shrugs*  That's what it sounds like to me.  But ah well.  We can at least not care and have fun anyway.

[Nath]

I am not trying to discourage discussion. But what has been written is so fraught with contradiction that it would be immensely difficult to publish a followup without explaining some of it, which does take away some of the fun and mystery, and in doing so further contradicting something. I am thinking about how attempts in other media, e.g. comics, to "fix" continuity end up fucking it up even more and that is very likely to happen in any instance of explaining the disappearance.

The answer would be not to even try to do any followup if the authors and developers aren't able to maintain the required minimum of continuity between books. But that would no longer be the Shadowrun I used to know... I think I'd prefer someone to take a few lines to put clearly what will be the official version from now on, instead of having everybody dodging the topic. Ares chapter in Corporate Guide was a step short of the former. You couldn't reasonably spoke about a corporation while not adressing the status of its third largest shareholder.

It still strikes me that the "seven years plan" Dunkelzahn left to Daviar for the management of Gavilan Ventures (and by extension, its portfolio of Ares stock) started in 2057 and would have been finished in 2064. I'm also pretty sure that Damien Knight was okay with Daviar being Vice President as long as Haeffner was President. With Haeffner dead, Daviar was going to become President first per the Constitution, and then by winning the election. Maybe Knight threatened to support the New Revolution if Daviar did not leave the political stage.

Which remember me of another theory I have been toying with. Lucien Cross created the Seraphim sometimes during the 2030ies. Around that time, there were probaby a bunch of people who left the US intelligence community, as they were not willing or simply given the opportunity to choose between UCAS, CAS or California. So maybe there was a cell of New Revolution members within the Seraphim. That would put a new light on Lucien Cross death and some Seraphim joining Ares.

[Crimsondude]

That is just lazy. Just because the original book could not maintain a consistent story does not mean it is not worth exploring. The Revolution is a movement. Even if leader were executed in view of Ft. McNair's Generals Row there will always be a movement as long as the NAN exists. As for discussion there are a few questions. For example.

If Chimera was suspected, it could have been destroyed by the DF, Ares, and/or the UCAS. Riser's Smoker's Club  and Chimera nearly took each other apart. Those three orgs could have annihilated it.

I am going to stop dancing around it just this once and say that Frank and others who feel compelled to discuss this same topic as a means of attacking Jason specifically do not know what they are talking about.

My biggest concern is that I don't want another Rinelle. Ever. That is the problem with trying to end or "correct" (in the case of the Rinelle) storylines in an ongoing story. Nothing ends completely just like in real life. The NR is a movement that will never die as long as the NAN exists. Daviar was one of the most famous and generally liked people on Earth. People still make jokes about Elvis sightings in Shadowrun. Instead you just get gaps that when later filled retroactively tend to screw with people's games.

Did Jetblack really need to come back for On the Run? Did Schwartz need go from a one-shot first ed. adventure fixer to run for Seattle governor? The thing about wondering what happened is that at some point an adventure may come out of it because the story never ends.

Anyway, I don't like that explaining even the original disappearance means having to clean up someone's mess and worse being something that can't be an ongoing mystery and adventure for players.  It is not going to satisfy people who filled the gaps themselves only to have someone give a canon explanation that is not their own. They can ignore it, but then it creates the same problem anytime you disregard canon: why bother reading the books at all?

The thing about SR is that even normal humans live pretty long. Elves and dwarves even longer. Think about comeback stories now and add the lifetime to do that two or three more times.

Anyway the story is muddled shit. The attempt to clear the table of plots did the opposite of what was intended. It is fun to speculate but you can catalog every reference to Daviar since System Failure and none of them are a smoking gun.

And this is where I check out because I cannot and will not say more. Stupid me. I actually respect my NDA.

[Acme]

That is just lazy. Just because the original book could not maintain a consistent story does not mean it is not worth exploring. The Revolution is a movement. Even if leader were executed in view of Ft. McNair's Generals Row there will always be a movement as long as the NAN exists. As for discussion there are a few questions. For example.

If Chimera was suspected, it could have been destroyed by the DF, Ares, and/or the UCAS. Riser's Smoker's Club  and Chimera nearly took each other apart. Those three orgs could have annihilated it.

I am going to stop dancing around it just this once and say that Frank and others who feel compelled to discuss this same topic as a means of attacking Jason specifically do not know what they are talking about.

My biggest concern is that I don't want another Rinelle. Ever. That is the problem with trying to end or "correct" (in the case of the Rinelle) storylines in an ongoing story. Nothing ends completely just like in real life. The NR is a movement that will never die as long as the NAN exists. Daviar was one of the most famous and generally liked people on Earth. People still make jokes about Elvis sightings in Shadowrun. Instead you just get gaps that when later filled retroactively tend to screw with people's games.

Did Jetblack really need to come back for On the Run? Did Schwartz need go from a one-shot first ed. adventure fixer to run for Seattle governor? The thing about wondering what happened is that at some point an adventure may come out of it because the story never ends.

Anyway, I don't like that explaining even the original disappearance means having to clean up someone's mess and worse being something that can't be an ongoing mystery and adventure for players.  It is not going to satisfy people who filled the gaps themselves only to have someone give a canon explanation that is not their own. They can ignore it, but then it creates the same problem anytime you disregard canon: why bother reading the books at all?

The thing about SR is that even normal humans live pretty long. Elves and dwarves even longer. Think about comeback stories now and add the lifetime to do that two or three more times.

Anyway the story is muddled shit. The attempt to clear the table of plots did the opposite of what was intended. It is fun to speculate but you can catalog every reference to Daviar since System Failure and none of them are a smoking gun.

And this is where I check out because I cannot and will not say more. Stupid me. I actually respect my NDA.

No offense, Crimson, but get off your high horse.  I was NOT asking for any writer or creator to violate an NDA.    This was not a freaking jab at the creators, so get off of that as well.  I'm just a fan of Shadowrun for 15+ years who is just playing "let's try to unravel the conspiracy". 

I do NOT appreciate you placing some sort of ulterior motive behind something that I did as FUN.  I was not asking for canon unless it was explicitly written down in a book I did not see.  What part of "This isn't a wheedling plea to people for explanations or an accusation that they screwed up on x plot point." Didn't you understand?

This is a game with 20 years of metaplot.  It's fun to come up with explanations, especially if you can show off your research skills and back up your theories.  You coming along and crapping all over it is NOT fun.

[FastJack]

I think some wires got crossed here. As Acme says, Crimsondude, he's just doing fan speculation on the subject and isn't looking for anyone to actually give him hard and fast answers.

On the other side, Acme, there was some freelancer discussions regarding similar topics that were leaked to those not part of the original freelancer group, so Crimsondude and other freelancers are a little wary when discussion of Nadja comes up.

No harm, no foul on either side, so please don't let this devolve into something else.