[JustADude]

So, here's something that just occurred to me:

It seems that... since you are required to buy hits for things done in downtime during Missions... it pretty much behooves you to have your total DP for Binding at exactly a multiple of 4 after specialties and Foci are accounted for. Any fractions are, essentially, wasted since you have no way of making use of them.

It also means that you should Summon/Bind Spirits during down-time at a Force equal to 4X-1 (i.e. 3, 7, 11, 15, etc) since they have to buy their hits, too, and those get you your best Force-to-Resistance-Hits ratios.

Thus, a Magic 6 + Summining/Binding 6 Mage with a F4 Power Focus, and a matching Specialization and Mentor (+4 total) has a DP of 20 and buys 5 hits for his chosen specialty, resulting in a nice, beefy 4 services when Summoning or Rebinding a Force 7 spirit and 3 on the first binding, for 7 services out of the gate. If you've got more than 8 in your Drain Resistance pool (which should be a no-brainer), you auto-soak the DV for it, too, since 1 Net Hit = 2 DV.

Pump that up to 11 (no pun intended) and you still get 3 & 2 for Services. Get your DR pool to 12 and you only eat 1P for the summoning and 1P for the Binding, a light enough price for 5 services for a mammoth of a Spirit.

If you assume the Mage has some Initiation and Summoning & Binding pools of at least 21 to start, they can even get 2 & 1 from a Force 15 spirit, though they'll have to eat 3P per step to make it happen unless they're doing something hinky with Qualities or Cyberware. At this point, though, I think the cost:performance ratio has start slipping very badly thanks to the binding expenses.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Fixed a math error. 2*2 = 4, not 3. You eat some damage with the F11 spirits. 

[Mason]

Wow. Missions has issues.

[KarmaInferno]

Eh, it is a campaign that by design has no GM oversight during character creation or for between-game activities.

I challenge you to find any RPG that wouldn't have issues given those design requirements.




-k

[Mason]

Hmm. Good point, though I don't think it would take to long to deal with a Binding roll at end-game real fast in the wrap-up.

I guess I am just too used to casual play with my friends.

[KarmaInferno]

You can actually do that, if there's time. As long as the GM is willing to stay a bit and witness the rolls, you can in fact do that instead of buying hits.

Buying hits is there as an ADDITIONAL option for when you're not at a Missions game table.



-k

[Bull]

Any "automated" system will lend itself to being "gamed".  *shrug*  Not much that can really be done about that.

But yes, so long as you have a Gamemaster with the time, you can always do things "normally".  And if using Missions for home games, you SHOULD do that.  But for convention play, especially larger conventions such as Origins or Gen Con where everythings on a really tight time schedule, having some basic rules in place to handle non-GMed downtime is a must have.  But it's not perfect.

Bull

[Mason]

Any "automated" system will lend itself to being "gamed".  *shrug*  Not much that can really be done about that.

But yes, so long as you have a Gamemaster with the time, you can always do things "normally".  And if using Missions for home games, you SHOULD do that.  But for convention play, especially larger conventions such as Origins or Gen Con where everythings on a really tight time schedule, having some basic rules in place to handle non-GMed downtime is a must have.  But it's not perfect.

Bull

Oh, I wasn't aware of that. I thought  he was saying you HAVE to buy hits for downtime stuff.

[JustADude]

Any "automated" system will lend itself to being "gamed".  *shrug*  Not much that can really be done about that.

But yes, so long as you have a Gamemaster with the time, you can always do things "normally".  And if using Missions for home games, you SHOULD do that.  But for convention play, especially larger conventions such as Origins or Gen Con where everythings on a really tight time schedule, having some basic rules in place to handle non-GMed downtime is a must have.  But it's not perfect.

Bull

Oh, I wasn't aware of that. I thought  he was saying you HAVE to buy hits for downtime stuff.

I was. That's how I read it in the FAQ, but I may have misunderstood what they were trying to say.

[_Pax_]

Hmm. Good point, though I don't think it would take to long to deal with a Binding roll at end-game real fast in the wrap-up.

  With six players, if they turned out to ALL be mages, and want two bind two spirits on average?  On top of all the signing-off of game results and such, the GM might not have time to see to everyone in the last 10-20 minutes of a limited time slot at a convention.

[Bull]

Hrmm.  Yeah, the FAQ doesn't make that clear.  Point 4 on this page for Gamemasters discusses it though.  http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/gamemasters/

We'll rectify that in the future.

But keep in mind it's always at the GMs discretion, depending on time constraints and such.

[RiggerBob]

Sorry to "resurrect" this weeks old thread, but i don't seem to understand the math (or rules^^)...

Thus, a Magic 6 + Summining/Binding 6 Mage with a F4 Power Focus, and a matching Specialization and Mentor (+4 total) has a DP of 20 and buys 5 hits for his chosen specialty, resulting in a nice, beefy 4 services when Summoning...

Mage -> DP 20 = 5 hits
F7 Spirit -> DP 'Force' (7) = 1hit

= 4 services

So far i can follow...

But:

[...]and 3 on the first binding,

Mage -> DP 20 = 5 hits
F7 Spirit -> DP 'Force*2' (14) = 3 hits
-1 hit for the actual binding (as per p.188,S4A)

= 1 service

And:

[...] 4 services when Summoning or Rebinding

Mage -> DP 20 = 5 hits
F7 Spirit -> DP 'Force*2' (14) = 3 hits

= 2 services

[lurkeroutthere]

I have been under the impression you cannot bind with downtime rules but have to get it witnessed. I guess i will go review the faq. Basically buying hits is only for non stressfull situations, getting into a contest of wills with a spirit or sprite is like the exact opposite of that.

[UmaroVI]

You can bind and register during downtime.

CAN I MAKE SKILL TESTS
BETWEEN ADVENTURES?
Yes. Unless otherwise noted in the FAQ, all skill tests made during
downtime are done by buying hits using the 4:1 rule (p. 62, SR4A)
and using the standard rules for limited Extended Tests (cumulative
–1 per test, p. 64, SR4A). Assistants and instructors also buy hits for
their tests.

There's no mention of binding elsewhere, and it is a "skill test(s) made during downtime," so this rule clearly applies. Also, the FAQ explicitly tells you to buy hits for Ally Spirits, which require Summoning and Binding as part of the ally spirit creation.

It does lead to some quirks, but I don't see any better way to do this.

[JustADude]

Sorry to "resurrect" this weeks old thread, but i don't seem to understand the math (or rules^^)...

Thus, a Magic 6 + Summining/Binding 6 Mage with a F4 Power Focus, and a matching Specialization and Mentor (+4 total) has a DP of 20 and buys 5 hits for his chosen specialty, resulting in a nice, beefy 4 services when Summoning...

Mage -> DP 20 = 5 hits
F7 Spirit -> DP 'Force' (7) = 1hit

= 4 services

So far i can follow...

But:

[...]and 3 on the first binding,

Mage -> DP 20 = 5 hits
F7 Spirit -> DP 'Force*2' (14) = 3 hits
-1 hit for the actual binding (as per p.188,S4A)

= 1 service

And:

[...] 4 services when Summoning or Rebinding

Mage -> DP 20 = 5 hits
F7 Spirit -> DP 'Force*2' (14) = 3 hits

= 2 services

Yeah, I derped up there and forgot that Spirits get Force*2 dice for Binding resistance. Still the optimal rating, just fewer services.

[lurkeroutthere]

You can bind and register during downtime.

CAN I MAKE SKILL TESTS
BETWEEN ADVENTURES?
Yes. Unless otherwise noted in the FAQ, all skill tests made during
downtime are done by buying hits using the 4:1 rule (p. 62, SR4A)
and using the standard rules for limited Extended Tests (cumulative
–1 per test, p. 64, SR4A). Assistants and instructors also buy hits for
their tests.

There's no mention of binding elsewhere, and it is a "skill test(s) made during downtime," so this rule clearly applies. Also, the FAQ explicitly tells you to buy hits for Ally Spirits, which require Summoning and Binding as part of the ally spirit creation.

It does lead to some quirks, but I don't see any better way to do this.

Check page 62 or there abouts, Bull would need to actually way in but based on the rules for buying hits I would interpret that binding during downtime is disallowed by the binding rules refrenced.

If the character might suffer bad consequences from failing the test, then the gamemaster should require her to roll the test rather than buying hits.