Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Marzhin on <01-15-12/0608:51>

Title: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Marzhin on <01-15-12/0608:51>
I was reading SOTA 2073 and Hestaby's speech, and she makes a lot of references to a dragon names Dzitbalchén, who was executed by Aztlan in 2064 for killing Aztechnology's CEO.
It was the first time I heard about Dzitbalchén. I don't think he was mentionned in Dragons of the Sixth World back in the day, and even the Almanach doesn't say much about the whole event. Is there a book where I can read more about this particular plot point?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <01-15-12/0859:09>
IIRC, he first pops up in the Denver boxed set, where he and his sister live there. They have a small rivalry, making runs against one another (non-lethal, natch) and generally don't get along terribly well, but at the end of teh day, blood holds out.

When Ghostwalker arrives, Dzitbalchen bails out (I can't recall if his sister does or not, but I want to say no) since, well, Big Bad Dragon can eat normal dragons with ease. He keeps up his smuggling ring (Both siblings run smuggler rings in Denver), but from the 'launch' side while his sister runs more of the 'arrival' side. He winds up either in the PCC or Aztlan proper (Again, I forget which) and seems to settle in.

I lose track of him at this point, until the bombing incident that, rightly or not, is pinned on him.

Denver has the majority of info, followed by ... hrm. Year of the Comet, I think, for when Ghostwalker arrives.

He wasn't a Great Dragon, nor is his sister.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <01-15-12/0946:53>
Dzitbalchen was the fall guy when the 'peace summit' between Aztlan and the Yucatan Rebels got blown up. He was fingered by Pobre (another dragon, possibly toxic) and an Aztech astral forensics team. By pure coincidence, days after Pobre is installed as the governor of the Yucatan. Of course, the Azzies would NEVER rig something like that, right?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Marzhin on <01-15-12/0952:38>
IIRC, he first pops up in the Denver boxed set, where he and his sister live there. They have a small rivalry, making runs against one another (non-lethal, natch) and generally don't get along terribly well, but at the end of teh day, blood holds out.

When Ghostwalker arrives, Dzitbalchen bails out (I can't recall if his sister does or not, but I want to say no) since, well, Big Bad Dragon can eat normal dragons with ease.

Actually the whole "smuggling Dragon siblings" does ring a bell. I just didn't remember the name of said Dragons. Thanks, I'll have a look in Year of the Comet :)
It's a good thing the Denver book has just been released in French alongside the Aztlan book as part of the "Vintage Shadowrun" collection (neither books had been translated at the time of their original release, so needless to say we missed quite a share of the metaplot back then)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Simagal on <01-15-12/1533:18>
In Running Wild Zacaultipan is as a sibling Dzitbalchen (page 78).
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Henker on <01-16-12/0645:44>
In Running Wild Zacaultipan is as a sibling Dzitbalchen (page 78).
very precise.
I am impressed
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Marzhin on <01-17-12/0544:42>
So I dug up my copy of Dragons of the 6th World and I was mistaken: Dzitbalchen is actually described in the book. What seems strange is Dzit' seemed to be rather pro-Aztlan, so why would he kill the CEO of Aztechnology?
One interesting thing is the fact Dzit's sister seems to have been helping the Yucatan rebels, and the shadowtalk suggest that despite their ongoing brother/sister feud, Dzit' would probably do anything to protect his sister. Could that have been used to manipulate him? Could he have been the scapegoat in a more complex conspiracy? (it's a rhetoric question, considering it's Shadowrun we're talking about :p)
Could Pobre be behind it all? On one hand, as Mirikon said, he became governor in the process. On the other hand, in the Almanach it is said the new president of Aztlan (Enrico Silva) doesn't trust Pobre, who he describes as a "toxic dragon", and will probably break the treaty with Yucatan eventually. And given his long history of fighting Aztlan (calling himself a "Mexican" and all), it seems improbable Pobre would side with the Azzies. Although if he really has gone toxic, I suppose he could have made a deal with the "new guard" of Enrico Silva and arranged the bombing to get rid of Atzcapotzalco.
Last but not least I was reading the old Aztlan book, and it says something about blood sacrifices: the bigger the creature you sacrifice, the more power you gain. Could Dzit's execution have been a sacrifice? What kind of freakish power do you gain by sacrificing a dragon? Could that have been Aztlan's way to counter Dunkelzahn's own sacrifice?
In any case there's definitely something fishy going on... That is why I love this game :p
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <01-17-12/0604:45>
Reference Corporate Guide pg 66:

> And to this day, no one has ever suggested why Dzitbalchén
would have wanted to disrupt the Yucatan Peace Summit or
assassinate Juan. Of course, Dzitbalchén owned a large chunk of
Aztechnology shares, and rumors were he wanted on the board
bad. My personal opinion? Aztechnology killed three birds with
one stone: the corp rid itself of Juan, opened up Dzitbalchén’s
shares, and secured peace in the Yucatan by giving Pobre
the governorship.
> Winterhawk

Plus getting a bunch of telesma out of the corpse of a dragon . . . which may, in turn, have formed a part of the mojo which bottomed out the Amazon Basin's mega-growth rate in the opening stages of the Az-Am war.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Ryushiroi on <01-17-12/1717:01>
These two wouldn't also be the two "Feathered Serpents" who had a bit of a spat and Ghostwalker had to step in, with the result being their restaurant being wiped out?

Read something in Spy Games about that.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <01-17-12/2012:02>
Should be, yes.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on <01-25-12/1944:30>
So if we are going for a Draconic Throwdown, Who's taking bets on who will come out on top?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <01-25-12/2032:55>
Horrors.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <01-25-12/2137:41>
Oh really?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <01-25-12/2228:22>
Horrors?  So last decade...... Insect Spirits!  Nows there's your real threat!

Otherwise... Lowfyr.  Dude wins everything, one way or the other.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <01-25-12/2251:29>
Until Alamais and Sirrurg double-team him.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on <01-27-12/1022:53>
why do people keep forgetting about Leung over in China...?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <01-27-12/1118:37>
why do people keep forgetting about Leung over in China...?
Because he's a cheap Hong Kong knock-off?  ;D

Yes yes, I know, "The Special Hell".
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on <01-27-12/1400:18>
You're dangerous with a phone. Remember what you did when you were alone with a phone in Prague? Remember how many people died?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <01-27-12/1648:33>
You're dangerous with a phone. Remember what you did when you were alone with a phone in Prague? Remember how many people died?
Vaguely, I was on a lot of drugs at the time.

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b143/CanRay/Transmetropolitan-DrugsAreGoodForMe.gif)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <01-31-12/0345:21>
why do people keep forgetting about Leung over in China...?
Because he's a cheap Hong Kong knock-off?  ;D

"Lung", you mean?  We don't forget about him, we just dismiss him because he and Ryumyo would take each other out.

Honestly, I'd bet on only ... two Great Dragons surviving:
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <01-31-12/0434:50>
why do people keep forgetting about Leung over in China...?
Because he's a cheap Hong Kong knock-off?  ;D

"Lung", you mean?  We don't forget about him, we just dismiss him because he and Ryumyo would take each other out.

Honestly, I'd bet on only ... two Great Dragons surviving:
  • Masaru, because he hasn't really built any enemies, and is young enough to not have any total opponents;
  • and Arleesh, because it's getting to the point where she frankly doesn't give two $|-|!ts about anything but her self-appointed task.

I thought Masaru fragged Ryumyo off because he helped kick the Japanese out of the Phillipanes.  Which means Ryumyo has two great dragon enemies (that we know off).  I also thought, once upon a time in another age, Lung was the senior mentor for Ryumyo...  I think its likely that Ryumyo would get his ticket punched in that scenario...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <01-31-12/0437:53>
Ryumyo and Lung would kill each other off; their hate for each other leaves very little room for a nervous young accountant like Masaru.  Yes, Masaru's Huk kicked the Japanese out of the Philippines, but the Emperor did a big chunk of that first.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <01-31-12/0824:10>
my sympathies are with Aden...althought his sympathies are with no man...
And also...the feathered lady...there is strange silence around Cape Town this days, so idn if Mujaji is still living her personal garden dream as she always was...having some minor skirmishes with Lofwyrs agents...or if she is more interrested in what is going on in the world...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <01-31-12/0946:26>
As much as I like Aden and his stance against anti-Awakened groups, his militance would get him geeked quick.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <01-31-12/0949:36>
I dont think so. His display of power was even more amazing than Ghostwalkers...putting whole Tehran into dust to make a statement...it is maybe more close to Sirrug and his group...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <01-31-12/1006:45>
That's an interesting picture to me...Aden as one of the "good guys."
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <01-31-12/1010:09>
Well, if there really are any "good guys", nothing Adens done precludes him from being one. Nothing he's done includes him in that group either. He knows what pisses off his delicate sensibilities and torches it. I'm not sure what his recent activities are, but he's not a "villain".
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <01-31-12/1022:12>
There is so terribly little known on his agenda, that he may seem almost as asome kind of neutral power, radicaly conservative, territorial godlike power dwelling on Ararat...and his first action was on behalf of awakened...
"You want to fight, so look what you will face" message to new jihadists...well it seems that young races have little to none significance in the streams of time...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <01-31-12/1126:32>
Lung has taken Masaru under his wing, as he did with Ryumyo long ago, remember ... Masaru is the New Apprentice, not as talented as the old one, but far more moldable. Masaru's also the one who woke up as a lesser dragon, then upgraded himself in the 6th world and is, thus, the newest Great Dragon.

Ryumyo was working on upgrading himself into something greater than a Great Dragon, but the Comet blew that up in his face. Who knows how far it set him back?

Aden remains a wild card, but one who was present at the DC Rift when it blew up, so probably has some sort of understanding with Ghostwalker.

Lofwyr, obvious.

Ditto the Orange Queen.

Arleesh is doing her thing.

...

There're a lot of dragons. (For some reason, I want to say that, back in first edition, there was a not ethat there were only twelve Great Dragons, as if the number has a mystic importance and that's all that there COULD be ... one had to die for a new one to rise up. But I have no idea *why* I think this.)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <01-31-12/1138:55>
That's an interesting picture to me...Aden as one of the "good guys."
Oh, thank you Patrick, I needed a laugh like that!

Good guys, in Shadowrun, that's rich!!!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Stry on <01-31-12/1234:53>
Do not forget about Schwartzkopf too he has been pretty quiet sense crash2.0.

Alamais is also still around and is proof that orbital weapons can not one shot a great dragon.

Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on <01-31-12/1402:49>
I would hardly call Aden a 'Good Guy' but more of a Big and Cranky Great who awoke and saw some damnfool Jihadist calling for the slaughter of All Thinks Awakened. He proceeded to Flame Tehran into the ground out of Pique, etstablishing the food Chain in a Way that none of the locals loons could ignore, explain away as something else, or BS their way out of.

Aden: Will Anyone Else Attempt to Fill Their Shoes?
Survivors: ummm....no?
Aden: Good. Now Get Of My Lawn.

Aden Also does not return phone calls, so its kinda hard to see it as anything else
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <01-31-12/1449:25>
Didnt read Artifacts Unbound yet, since we play the artifacts campaign and this will become actual maybe in half a year or so, well if Aden appears there, it seems as a good reeason to give it a quick view...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <01-31-12/1515:26>
Aden seems quiet since his big show, many years ago.

But dragons generally operate in the shadows. So who knows how runners have jobs which actually supported his agenda (even if said agenda was 'get off my lawn').  Even the public dragons have plays in the shadows that we may never know about ( unless we get mor fiction. Hint hint)

You know, I really did like dragons of the sixth age and survival of the fittest.  Good books those.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <01-31-12/1556:15>
I also love those two.
Aden seems to have his tete a tete with Lofwyrs interrests in the Middle east territory, well he didnt even act when Ibn Eisa appeared on the scene if I remember correctly... he seems quite careless about the outside world
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <01-31-12/1645:38>
Maybe, for the most part, we just don't interest them enough to attract their attention.  A number of dragons don't seem to operate in a way that demostrates much more concern over the mundan events beyond 'get off my lawn'.  No that they arn't doing something, it just doesn't cross into our 'world' so to speak. I sometimes think GhostWalker would fit this category if the mortals hadn't dumped a city on his home.

And then you have Dragons which run corporations....
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <01-31-12/1648:56>
If he really wanted humans off his lawn in Denver, don't you think he'd have been able to do it anyhow?

Maybe he likes having his own kingdom that's actually a bunch of different countries?  Gets to wear a different crown (Or draconic equivalent) depending on his mood.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <01-31-12/1657:23>
If he really wanted humans off his lawn in Denver, don't you think he'd have been able to do it anyhow?

Maybe he likes having his own kingdom that's actually a bunch of different countries?  Gets to wear a different crown (Or draconic equivalent) depending on his mood.

LOL! Ghostwalker in a 10 galleon hat!

http://asherthedragon.deviantart.com/art/Cowboy-Dragon-227507153 (http://asherthedragon.deviantart.com/art/Cowboy-Dragon-227507153)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <01-31-12/1729:19>
If he really wanted humans off his lawn in Denver, don't you think he'd have been able to do it anyhow?

Maybe he likes having his own kingdom that's actually a bunch of different countries?  Gets to wear a different crown (Or draconic equivalent) depending on his mood.
LOL! Ghostwalker in a 10 galleon hat!

http://asherthedragon.deviantart.com/art/Cowboy-Dragon-227507153 (http://asherthedragon.deviantart.com/art/Cowboy-Dragon-227507153)
Crown of the CAS!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Malathis on <02-03-12/1242:09>
If he really wanted humans off his lawn in Denver, don't you think he'd have been able to do it anyhow?

Maybe he likes having his own kingdom that's actually a bunch of different countries?  Gets to wear a different crown (Or draconic equivalent) depending on his mood.

Wouldn't being the ruler of each of the sectors in Denver give him each a new seperate title, and don't titles grant power (Earthdawn magic if memory serves).
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <02-03-12/1322:52>
Even if they don't anymore, he may not know that. Or maybe he's just so used to that being how it was that he knows better but still accumulates titles out of habit?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <02-03-12/1556:47>
Even if they don't anymore, he may not know that. Or maybe he's just so used to that being how it was that he knows better but still accumulates titles out of habit?
Bragging rights alone.  He's never stuck with the bar tab at the very least.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <02-03-12/1621:26>
I was curious about that "Power comes from Titles" thing. It was mentioned in a passing voice both about President Juan and President Dunk, but never really touched on. As I never dipped a toe into Earthdawn, I never could quite grab onto it.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <02-03-12/1626:42>
It is in the same kind of field as true names of spirits. Names have power. Names in the form of titles have more power the more important the title is. So saying you're President of the water cooler on four square would have power. but being President of the UCAS has a great deal more power. The more people that acknowledge that title, the greater the power that title has.

It is the symbolism of it.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <02-04-12/0348:21>
Kind of makes you wonder what would be if the United States hadn't been broken up.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <02-04-12/1332:15>
Explains Queen Victoria, actually...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Red Canti on <02-04-12/2215:56>
It is in the same kind of field as true names of spirits. Names have power. Names in the form of titles have more power the more important the title is. So saying you're President of the water cooler on four square would have power. but being President of the UCAS has a great deal more power. The more people that acknowledge that title, the greater the power that title has.

It is the symbolism of it.
Makes me wonder what happens to said power if enough people start disregarding said titles.s
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <02-04-12/2303:24>
It would weaken, certainly, if not vanish. But getting people to stop believing in symbols is incredibly difficult. Look at the dollar today. Do you know what gives the dollar its worth? If you said 'stacks of gold in Fort Knox', or anything similar, you're wrong. The dollar has value because people believe that it does. The value of the dollar compared to other currencies depends on the faith you have in those currencies, and how much of that currency is out there. If everyone suddenly decided the dollar was worthless, then what used to be stacks of cash is suddenly so much kindling. But it takes something cataclysmic for something like the dollar or a title like President of the United States to lose its meaning. We're talking about the kind of events that shake the world, and leave people spending decades trying to get their footing afterwards.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <02-05-12/1212:38>
Q: Is that power available in any form for those who holds the title? Like attuned background or something like that?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: JustADude on <02-05-12/2322:19>
Q: Is that power available in any form for those who holds the title? Like attuned background or something like that?

I don't know, but if so that might explain why Lofwyr is such a badass. "President/CEO of Saeder-Krupp" is a title that, in the Sixth World, probably has more weight behind it than "President of the United States" does today.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <02-06-12/0224:10>
Q: Is that power available in any form for those who holds the title? Like attuned background or something like that?

I don't know, but if so that might explain why Lofwyr is such a badass. "President/CEO of Saeder-Krupp" is a title that, in the Sixth World, probably has more weight behind it than "President of the United States" does today.

True, very true.  Yet, somehow, I feel he is beyond titles.  The Immortal Elves though, they seem to like titles.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <02-06-12/0249:04>
Oh, just because Lofwyr doesn't make a show of grabbing titles doesn't mean he doesn't know the power of them.

Also, if you want more evidence of the power of titles and names, read through the Aztlan book from 3E again, especially the private chat between Big D and his guests. There are parts that clearly show that names and titles have power.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <02-06-12/0250:29>
Names have always had power.

At the very least, they have the power to get someone's attention, that can be quite powerful indeed!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <02-06-12/0444:25>
Q: Is that power available in any form for those who holds the title? Like attuned background or something like that?

I don't know, but if so that might explain why Lofwyr is such a badass. "President/CEO of Saeder-Krupp" is a title that, in the Sixth World, probably has more weight behind it than "President of the United States" does today.

True, very true.  Yet, somehow, I feel he is beyond titles.  The Immortal Elves though, they seem to like titles.
He seemed rather taken with holding onto the title of Loremaster in Survival of the Fittest.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <02-06-12/0459:07>
Ahhhh.... that's true... but is was a Dragon title, not some petty little human attempt at authority.  Also, it came with, from memory, several important powers and responsibilities... and artifacts.

Survival of the Fittest.  A fine read even if you never play it (and you should consider playing  it, even as a once off historic campaign)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <02-06-12/1204:58>
As opposed to the power to annihilate the earth in five minutes.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <02-06-12/1309:12>
As opposed to the power to annihilate the earth in five minutes.
"The power to destroy a planet pales in comparison to the power of the Force."
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <02-06-12/1316:16>
"Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways, CanRay. Your sad devotion to that ancient Canadian wilderness has not helped you conjure up more novels, or given you clairvoyance enough to find a gaming group..."
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <02-06-12/2302:20>
Well played, sir!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <02-06-12/2323:00>
"Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways, CanRay. Your sad devotion to that ancient Canadian wilderness has not helped you conjure up more novels, or given you clairvoyance enough to find a gaming group..."
Well played, sir!
Yeah, thanks guys, I can feel the love.  :P
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Grinder on <02-10-12/0922:53>
Names have always had power.

Say hello to Earthdawn. ;D
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Marzhin on <02-15-12/0956:51>
Say hello to Earthdawn. ;D

By the way, loved the subtle Earthdawn references in Artifacts Unbound. The "T'Skrang" changeling, mentions of a "Life Rock"... Even if I never used the crossover much in my games, for me it was part of what makes Shadowrun special, so kudos to whoever wrote those :)

Back to the topic of dragons and their schemes: I was wondering, has there been any other info about whatever Ghostwalker did at the rift / what he's trying to achieve? (maybe in Spy Games?)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <02-15-12/1016:51>
It told how everyone there (except Aina) survived, was taken into custody, and were released. Ghostwalker hasn't been seen since, but anyone with half a brain doesn't expect him to be gone for good. He had a plan, known only to him, and he implemented it. Who knows what will happen next?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Marzhin on <02-15-12/1133:24>
except Aina
On that topic, if I understood correctly, Aina sacrificed herself to do a sort of ritual (that even Harlequin couldn't really understand) to save everybody else?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <02-15-12/1412:57>
Something like that.

Death is only the beginning.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <02-15-12/1416:00>
For the second I saw image Dr. Daniel Jackson from SG-1, reflecting on my monitor  :o
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Malathis on <02-15-12/1417:12>
Something like that.

Death is only the beginning.

Path magic, that whole reincarnation thing from tir na nog?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <02-15-12/1421:52>
Just wait and see.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <02-15-12/1423:07>
But I want answers now!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <02-15-12/1449:05>
For the second I saw image Dr. Daniel Jackson from SG-1, reflecting on my monitor  :o
Wrong mythology. :) Evelyn Carnehan, not Daniel Jackson.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <02-15-12/1519:41>
 :-[ I hate that mummovie  :'(
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <02-15-12/1546:17>
What the hell are you babbling about?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <02-15-12/1557:17>
Evelyn Carnehan...the archeoparody from Mummy... :)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Marzhin on <02-15-12/1600:35>
Something like that.

Death is only the beginning.

Now I'm intrigued :)
Well I was already intrigued about the whole metaplot, but now even more  ;D
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <02-15-12/1629:20>
She's a librarian.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <02-15-12/2203:14>
She's a librarian.
Don't screw with those people, they used to rule the world!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <02-16-12/0254:26>
She's a librarian.
Don't screw with those people, they used to rule the world!

The same actress was absolutely brilliant as Hypatia in a movie called Agora, about the last days of the Great Library of Alexandria.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <03-04-12/1938:37>
You know, I've been thinking about something. We know that several dragons (Dunkelzahn and Hestaby for certain, probably others) posted on the old Shadowland network, and Cerberus has shown up on Jackpoint, which means Celedyr knows about it, and other dragons probably do too. How likely is it that, as the war between dragons heats up, that we'll see dragons reaching out for allies in places they might not otherwise have looked? Possibly even coming to Jackpoint directly?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CitizenJoe on <03-04-12/1950:47>
Dragons don't go to war unprepared.  They would not come to Jackpoint (or any other untested talent base) during the war.  If one did show up, he's looking for a deniable asset to take advantage of something falling out of an unrelated battle.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <03-04-12/2347:17>
I could see a Dragon on Jackpoint.  Its been done before on Shadownet, so why not Jackpoint.  Not looking for talent, but to give their perspective.  Hestiby would do this, I think.  And providing your side of things to the right people, helps move the pieces of the game without something as crude as mere nuyen.

I love to see something like Survival of the Fittest again...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <03-05-12/0032:11>
That's what I was thinking, Black. And Joe, the thing about any war is that it tends to deplete your resources, whether you are winning or losing. Which means you need to get more.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <03-05-12/0412:43>
Well, where did you get that intel on Dragons cv. Dragons war? From Hestaby speech I understand that there is schism on how to deal with Aztech, but deffinitively not serrious enought to turn them one again each other...I dont believe that even those on Hestabys side would be willing to kill their brethen to save a few metahumans...or is there any more info in other books I didnt read?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <03-05-12/1027:50>
It has been a common theme through the last few books, but I'd recommend looking at Conspiracy Theories, in particular, where they talk in depth about it.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <03-05-12/1130:21>
oooo I need to read faster :O
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <03-05-12/1724:05>
However, I do feel that the Lowfyr/Hestiby dispute seems... contrived.  At least so far.  As if it was an act for the public to hide something in the shadows...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Red on <03-06-12/0936:42>
However, I do feel that the Lowfyr/Hestiby dispute seems... contrived.  At least so far.  As if it was an act for the public to hide something in the shadows...

Well, she DID turn down his offer to mate. Maybe it stung a little more than he let on. ;)

IIRC, Lung and Ryumyo are still effectively at each other's throats. There's always been some degree of "Dragon War" at any given point of time. I wonder about 5th Age occurrences that may have been the echoes of draconic rivalries.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Nath on <03-06-12/1255:51>
IIRC, Lung and Ryumyo are still effectively at each other's throats. There's always been some degree of "Dragon War" at any given point of time.
The problem is, two successive moves in what dragons would call a very aggressive war can be ten years apart.

You'd have a paragraph in the latest sourcebook describing the reaction to something that happened in, say, 3rd edition Shadows of Asia, which in turn would retaliate over the result of a 1st edition adventure.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Red on <03-06-12/1301:53>
Agreed, but for the dragons, they make up for their ponderous pace with complexity. What they would call a single move could be, for us, an entire career of shadowruns (or at least a campaign). Survival of the Fittest was a fine example of the latter. Great Dragons are operating on a dozen levels, plans within plans, always in motion. It is their scale (pun?) that makes them seem slow to us.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Lacynth40 on <04-11-12/2349:56>
Awwww THREAD NECRO!

Ok, here's my plea to the writers. Actually, a couple of pleas, really.

A) Dragons posting on Shadownet was awesome. If you were a quick one, you knew which dragon it was. If not, you were floored when they revealed something, got the ShadowTalkers in an uproar, and finally understood the scope of the drek hitting the oscillating ventilation apparatus. It was great. And now... Are you telling me Jack would say "Nope, you guys can go slot yourselves." if some dragons like Hestaby, Masaru, and a few of the littler ones applied for posting rights? Really, those dragons were some talkative wizwyrms in previous editions. Now, you can't get word one out of them, and it seems like they aren't as accessible anymore. Old editions were great, and I'm not saying the new one sucks. i love it. But, the old street saying on the back of the core rule book was there for a reason. Because eventually, in the old editions, it was entirely possible for an up and coming street crew to run into a dragon. For them to try and not cut a deal with. No more dragons posting in the source books leaves it feeling a bit more like they aren't there anymore. Which sucks hard.

B) Moar dragons waking up, please! The magic level is going up. Slowly, but surely. Why are we not seeing more dragons? We are seeing less, actually. We have had greats die, and a bunch of lesser dragons cack it. Only one has come out to replace them all, and that was last edition. Shouldn't some eggs hatch, at least? By the time we get to 2200 in game, we will have run out of dragons. I can understand the writers being leery of Horrors. That's good, I like that. But, how many Shadowrun players and GMs really say "Dragons? This game could do without them. Just a pain, seriously." Honestly, I could be happy with EVERY adventure having a dragon in it somewhere. As well as some throwing metaplot against the wall, and seeing what sticks. Concentrating on metahumanity and corporations going at it constantly, that gets old. And if I wanted to do that, I'd play a different cyber-punk game. I like Shadowrun because it has magic and dragons. MAGIC and DRAGONS. Get to it.

Now, I will hide from the writers wrath as they point to the Artifacts adventures. Hehehe.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <04-12-12/0000:05>
What about that Dragon that lived mostly in Metahuman form, and was a major risktaker?  I'd love to see him on the JackPoint!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <04-12-12/0016:02>
Damian, whom I call the party dragon. Not sure if he counts but Eliohan/Cerberus has been on Jackpoint. 
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <04-12-12/0539:09>
The most intriguing dragons left untouched so far have been Calozerca, recently (2063) woken by ritual, currently lairing in Poland; and Booryazmei, lairing on the eastern side of the Urals and referenced as possibly having a connection to a "You-Know-Who".  See Dragons of the Sixth World (which is overdue for PDF release BTW . . . hint, hint  ::)  ;) ) and Shadows of Asia, respectively.


Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <04-12-12/0715:37>
More dragons would indeed be awesome. Dragons and Immortal Elves posting on Jackpoint would also be cool, but unlikely, given that Jackpoint isn't the open forum Shadowland was. A pity. I miss the conversations between Wordsmyth, Laughing Man, Orange Queen, Big D, and others. If any of the IEs or Dragons-that-aren't-Eghosts were to get on Jackpoint, it would most likely be Harlequin, Hestaby, Ehran, or perhaps Masaru. Ghostwalker returning, and 'asking' to post on Jackpoint would be fun to see, though.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <04-12-12/0813:21>
I know he's not a dragon, but if Laughing Man gets on the JackPoint, Bull is going to lose it and be, well, like a bull in a china shop.

I'm surprised he isn't picking Trolling Fights with Frosty to be honest.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <04-12-12/0820:40>
Bull knows Frosty isn't Laughing Man, or even an extension of him. Plus, Frosty is there by invitation, just like him.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <04-12-12/0830:51>
So are Netcat and Clockwork, and look at how well they get along.  ;)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <04-12-12/0849:17>
Point to you.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Lacynth40 on <04-12-12/1823:01>
Wait... In which book did Bull and Harley get into it enough for Bull to have a grudge?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Bull on <04-12-12/1828:35>
It happened "off screen" and a long time ago.  See Street Legends and Street Legends Supplemental for more on that.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <04-12-12/1830:14>
Bull-the-character is Bull-the-player's long-time personal character.  (This is the benefit of being a writer for the game; you can edge your own PCs in.)  Bull's background history extensively involved the Laughing Man.  As Bull just said, see Street Legends and its Supplemental.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Bull on <04-12-12/1836:53>
I frequently wish these days that Bull-the-Character had a different name, since Bull is not just the handle I've used online for the past 16+ years, but is also a real life nickname.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <04-12-12/1842:50>
Bull. Ha! More like ...

<connection lost>
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <04-12-12/2045:43>
So, that's the reason behind having him go by MacCallister?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <04-12-12/2101:58>
(This is the benefit of being a writer for the game; you can edge your own PCs in.)
IIRC, Bull-The-Character predates Bull-The-Person writing for Shadowrun.

That said, I haven't gotten one of my PCs into the books yet.  Mainly because I've ONLY GMed!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Lacynth40 on <04-12-12/2110:36>
(This is the benefit of being a writer for the game; you can edge your own PCs in.)
IIRC, Bull-The-Character predates Bull-The-Person writing for Shadowrun.

That said, I haven't gotten one of my PCs into the books yet.  Mainly because I've ONLY GMed!

Oh, poor baby. Try having every game you play in drying up after three fraggin' sessions. I haven't played in a long term campaign in over a decade!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Bull on <04-12-12/2118:43>
So, that's the reason behind having him go by MacCallister?

One reason.  It is also his half-assed attempt at being "professional".  When he's operating as a fixer, he uses that name.  It's also his real last name, even.

When Jason decided to add him to the Jackpoint crew as well (Which was shortly after him showing up in Missions), we decided to stick with his runner handle, Bull, instead of switching to MacCallister because he'd shown up in Shadowrun as Bull on a number of occasions before.

And funny enough, as CanRay points out, Bull showed up in a Shadowrun book long before I (as a writer) ever did.  I won a contest Mike Mulvihill ran on the ShadowRN Mailing List a zillion years ago, and myself and a handful of others got our characters/handles used in Target: UCAS.  The others were Granite, Spike, Fro (Adam Jury), and I believe there was one other that I'm blanking on.  Mike also created all our .sig lines.  "The Best Ork Decker you Never Met" was actually a bit of a jab at me, as I had gotten to know Mike through email, and I had planned to attend a gaming convention and was going to meet up with Mike there, but had to cancel at the last minute.  (Side note, a buddy of mine, Dave, did attend.  And apparently sold me to Mike for a quarter.)   After that several other writers who I knew continued to use Bull as  a poster.  I did end up on the freelance roster at FASA and did a bunch of playtesting, but my first actual published work wouldn't see print until after FASA closed down (Year of the Comet).

Anyway, we're way off topic here, so lets steer things back, shall we?

And Can Ray, wanna GM at gen Con? :)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <04-12-12/2347:12>
Oh, poor baby. Try having every game you play in drying up after three fraggin' sessions. I haven't played in a long term campaign in over a decade!
At least you've had a long term campaign.
And funny enough, as CanRay points out, Bull showed up in a Shadowrun book long before I (as a writer) ever did.  I won a contest Mike Mulvihill ran on the ShadowRN Mailing List a zillion years ago, and myself and a handful of others got our characters/handles used in Target: UCAS.    "The Best Ork Decker you Never Met" was actually a bit of a jab at me, as I had gotten to know Mike through email, and I had planned to attend a gaming convention and was going to meet up with Mike there, but had to cancel at the last minute.  (Side note, a buddy of mine, Dave, did attend.  And apparently sold me to Mike for a quarter.)
That mean he's going to call in your ownership for "Shadowrun Returns" and take credit for all your writing?  ;D
And Can Ray, wanna GM at gen Con? :)
Was wondering when you were going to ask me.

Talk to me private about that.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Cranstonvm on <04-13-12/0014:47>
That book coming out called "Clutch of Dragons" sounds dragon like so maybe more dragons will be coming, especially female dragons.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <04-13-12/0021:13>
Either that, or a lot of folks are going to find themselves in the clutches of the dragons...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <04-13-12/0629:45>
Better the clutch than the maw . . .
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: TonyK on <04-13-12/1656:59>
Better the clutch than the maw . . .
Depends on what's being clutched.  ;)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: TheWanderingJewels on <04-16-12/0636:58>
A Charming little thought about the Dust up between the dragons is that they are likely to play Asset Squash before the go for each other Fang and Claw. Not to mention bollijaxing those they percieve to be a threat. or may become a threat after they are licking their wounds
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <04-16-12/0747:34>
Oh, brilliant . . . anyone for Dragon Pong?  ::)  ;)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <04-16-12/0841:32>
Oh, brilliant . . . anyone for Dragon Pong?  ::)  ;)
More like a cross between pong, poker, craps, chess, combat dogfighting, corporate shenanigans, and a really, really complex RPG where the GM refuses to tell you the rules.

...

No, I mean worse than Paranoia.  You don't even get to see the character sheet!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <04-16-12/0909:22>
Man, I hate it when the GDs have a bad day . . .
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <04-16-12/1936:43>
I'll bet somebody else's paycheck that no dragons die, but an Claudia Romanov and Nicholas Whitebird will.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <04-16-12/1949:20>
Whitebird, Ghostdragon's guy in Denver?  Yeah, I could see that.  Very dramatic.

Not sure about no dragon dieing though...  Sirrug or Aztecnology, only one will come out alive.  And maybe someone else might decide to use the conflict to take a dragon out.... perhaps a magic-enhanced nuke at the new Treaty of Denver signing... oooooohhhhhhhhh.... that would spark some serious drama...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Lacynth40 on <04-16-12/2145:34>
Wait... They still haven't gotten a new treaty signed? The hell have they been doing? Waiting for Big White to write the damned thing himself?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <04-16-12/2148:17>
Wait... They still haven't gotten a new treaty signed? The hell have they been doing? Waiting for Big White to write the damned thing himself?

Not signed yet in Spy Games... since then?  Haven't heard anything concrete.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <04-16-12/2149:57>
You will.


There have been references here and there, but it's been dragging because that's the way things fly in Sixth World Diplomacy.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <04-16-12/2156:23>
You will.


There have been references here and there, but it's been dragging because that's the way things fly in Sixth World Diplomacy.

Read shadowruns galore.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <04-16-12/2204:24>
Reminds me of the adventure book around Big D run for the presidency.  Some really good stuff.  Would be interesting to have the political themed runs around the Treaty negotiations.  Blackmail, data thefts, maybe even a cloned replacement of a delegate and then..... BANG! 
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <04-16-12/2220:11>
I wanna say it was "Super Tuesday" with all those runs. I wish I had my old books with me.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <04-16-12/2221:19>
I wanna say it was "Super Tuesday" with all those runs. I wish I had my old books with me.

I think it was, but was there a second book?  Underworld or something like that?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <04-16-12/2226:51>
Shadows of the Underworld is the only book I remember with Underworld in the title and it was a similar to Vice in that it covered crime.

Edit- Blood in the Boardroom maybe? It covered the fallout of Miles Lainer getting all that Renraku stock form Big D's will.

Edit 2- I shouldn't trust my memory on percs, you were right Shadows of the Underworld was the follow up to Super Tuesday. I was thinking the Underworld Sourcebook.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <04-16-12/2252:35>
You will.


There have been references here and there, but it's been dragging because that's the way things fly in Sixth World Diplomacy.

Read shadowruns galore.
That's the idea, especially after the politicking that was discussed in Conspiracy Theories. Unfortunately, it's just one of a ton of things going on. The list of ongoing plotlines and subplots is pretty awe-inspiring.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <04-16-12/2310:51>
Indeed.

Yeah, plots are everywhere in Shadowrun. Btw, you can use Shadowruns Galore as a book title.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Cranstonvm on <04-25-12/1519:44>
What is the status of Ghostwalker?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <04-25-12/1535:55>
You'll find out soon enough.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Cranstonvm on <04-25-12/1544:28>
You'll find out soon enough.

tease  ;)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <04-25-12/1726:50>
What is the status of Ghostwalker?
Hungry, what else?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <04-26-12/0637:19>
What is the status of Ghostwalker?
Hungry, what else?

Not to mention chock-full of "GIT OFF MAH LAWN!!"
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <04-26-12/1447:21>
What is the status of Ghostwalker?
Hungry, what else?
Not to mention chock-full of "GIT OFF MAH LAWN!!"
Oh, he hasn't done that yet.  At least, not to the same degree of what happened in Tehran.  ;)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <04-27-12/0612:24>
I suppose not.  But effectively the shotgun is next to the rocking chair . . .  ::)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <04-27-12/1401:04>
I suppose not.  But effectively the shotgun is next to the rocking chair . . .  ::)
Wouldn't a dragon-sized shotgun be a Punt Gun?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <04-27-12/2118:51>
I suppose not.  But effectively the shotgun is next to the rocking chair . . .  ::)
Wouldn't a dragon-sized shotgun be a Punt Gun?

With an underbarrel punt gun.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Lacynth40 on <04-27-12/2316:30>
I suppose not.  But effectively the shotgun is next to the rocking chair . . .  ::)
Wouldn't a dragon-sized shotgun be a Punt Gun?

With an underbarrel punt gun.

Great Dragon-sized shotgun would be an M65 Atomic Cannon... Hehehe.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <04-28-12/0436:03>
I suppose not.  But effectively the shotgun is next to the rocking chair . . .  ::)
Wouldn't a dragon-sized shotgun be a Punt Gun?

With an underbarrel punt gun.

Great Dragon-sized shotgun would be an M65 Atomic Cannon... Hehehe.

Nah. Great Dragon-sized/scaled (!) shotgun would be metaphorical.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Lacynth40 on <04-28-12/1655:04>
I suppose not.  But effectively the shotgun is next to the rocking chair . . .  ::)
Wouldn't a dragon-sized shotgun be a Punt Gun?

With an underbarrel punt gun.

Great Dragon-sized shotgun would be an M65 Atomic Cannon... Hehehe.

Nah. Great Dragon-sized/scaled (!) shotgun would be metaphorical.

Metaphorical... Is that a new brand of gun made with metatypes in mind?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <04-29-12/0543:35>
I suppose not.  But effectively the shotgun is next to the rocking chair . . .  ::)
Wouldn't a dragon-sized shotgun be a Punt Gun?

With an underbarrel punt gun.

Great Dragon-sized shotgun would be an M65 Atomic Cannon... Hehehe.

Nah. Great Dragon-sized/scaled (!) shotgun would be metaphorical.

Metaphorical... Is that a new brand of gun made with metatypes in mind?

Only if you ask Sirrurg  :P  ::)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Cranstonvm on <04-30-12/1624:34>
I am wondering about Lowfry, is he up something else from the novels? I did not read them. I know about the possible dragon war but not sure about other things.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <04-30-12/1808:44>
Lofwyr's up to his scaly golden snout in other things.  Certainly he's got his talons in the war, but he's setting the pieces up so that no matter the outcome, he wins.

Might be a small win compared to the best case scenario, but it'll be a win for him nonetheless.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <05-01-12/0216:56>
Don't forget that dragons take a long, looooong view. A dragon war might play out over centuries.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <05-01-12/0334:59>
Don't forget that dragons take a long, looooong view. A dragon war might play out over centuries.

Makes you wonder if this is just a stage in war that began a long time ago. Like all long wars, there are peaks and troughs in activity.  Maybe they are just getting a bit more active in ther long cold war.

Also makes you wonder what such evolved creatures are really at war over (or if they really war at all, but I guess they do because Lowfyr killed a rival early in this age.)  Territory? Material Power?  Metaphyscial Power?  Status? Survival?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Stry on <05-01-12/0925:50>
Don't forget that dragons take a long, looooong view. A dragon war might play out over centuries.

With we know about dragons and their rites and rituals, it way just look like big game of chess to us.  I will serious doubt they literally fight each other head,  seen and commotion it will cause would be the last thing dragons would want. I have a feeling any war between dragons would be done via proxy kind like in Survival of the Fittest.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <05-01-12/0943:24>
I won't comment on its veracity, but my favorite description of the state of the conflict so far is from a fan who describes it as a courtship ritual between Hestaby and Lofwyr.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <05-01-12/0959:56>
If it is courtship I find it amusing that dragons have the same courtship rituals as kindergartners, hairpulling and namecalling.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-01-12/1201:50>
With we know about dragons and their rites and rituals, it way just look like big game of chess to us.
"Silly little things, thinking it's only chess.  It's far, far more complicated than that.  Actually, it's similar to some of their earlier role playing games.  I like those, they work the brain nicely."
I won't comment on its veracity, but my favorite description of the state of the conflict so far is from a fan who describes it as a courtship ritual between Hestaby and Lofwyr.
Great, baby dragons...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Cranstonvm on <05-01-12/1443:07>
I won't comment on its veracity, but my favorite description of the state of the conflict so far is from a fan who describes it as a courtship ritual between Hestaby and Lofwyr.

It would make sense if it was a courtship, proving each others worth...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Cranstonvm on <05-01-12/1444:55>
If it is courtship I find it amusing that dragons have the same courtship rituals as kindergartners, hairpulling and namecalling.

Kids are rather smart for certain things.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Cranstonvm on <05-01-12/1448:19>
With we know about dragons and their rites and rituals, it way just look like big game of chess to us.
"Silly little things, thinking it's only chess.  It's far, far more complicated than that.  Actually, it's similar to some of their earlier role playing games.  I like those, they work the brain nicely."
I won't comment on its veracity, but my favorite description of the state of the conflict so far is from a fan who describes it as a courtship ritual between Hestaby and Lofwyr.
Great, baby dragons...

Having baby dragons would be interesting, even if it is only to keep people off balance.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <05-01-12/1513:58>
Well, going off some of the Earthdawn material, it is usually the female that picks a mate, and that the mating ritual can look like prolonged combat.

However, I don't think that is what we're seeing here. I also don't think this is going to end up in Hestaby and Lofwyr fighting to the finish like you saw with Nachtmeister. No, while they certainly have different points of view, I suspect that this could all tie in to Dunkelzhan's death.

Dunkelzhan sacrificed himself to power the Dragonheart and blast the bridge to smithereens. Forces within Aztechnology (Darke & co., also perhaps a Horror-touched dragon) have been working to build that bridge. It is possible that, amongst the bequests not publicly listed, he had certain messages sent to the other great dragons, either through spirits or memory crystals (I don't think he'd trust something truly sensitive to the Matrix, especially with how much time he spent on Shadowland), explaining why he killed himself. If that is true, then the dragons may be playing a long game, angling for a run on AZT. Sirrurg's actions, however, may have complicated or disrupted their plans, especially if Sirrurg got impatient with the 'long game' and desired retribution, now. What we are seeing may be damage control, trying to get their plans back on track.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Marak1972 on <05-01-12/1538:15>
If he really wanted humans off his lawn in Denver, don't you think he'd have been able to do it anyhow?

Maybe he likes having his own kingdom that's actually a bunch of different countries?  Gets to wear a different crown (Or draconic equivalent) depending on his mood.

LOL! Ghostwalker in a 10 galleon hat!

http://asherthedragon.deviantart.com/art/Cowboy-Dragon-227507153 (http://asherthedragon.deviantart.com/art/Cowboy-Dragon-227507153)

LMAO oh jeez it hurts it hurts LMAo
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-01-12/1948:03>
If it is courtship I find it amusing that dragons have the same courtship rituals as kindergartners, hairpulling and namecalling.
Speaking from experience, never underestimate the power of opposing someone to create an attraction.  When you repeatedly fight someone, you get to know them very well, very intimately in the non-sexual senses of the word.  This may create a powerful bond and attraction, so much so that you can get them defending each other on the 'nobody kills him but me!!' theme, or simply a very deep friendship in which opposition and rivalry are the primary facets -- very much like Ehran and Harlequin, in fact.

In individuals who are mutually attracted to the other's gender, well -- that can lead to 'I enjoy our fights so much, I have to marry you just so we can fight more conveniently.'  Very much like me and my wife ....
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <05-01-12/1958:06>
If it is courtship I find it amusing that dragons have the same courtship rituals as kindergartners, hairpulling and namecalling.
Speaking from experience, never underestimate the power of opposing someone to create an attraction.  When you repeatedly fight someone, you get to know them very well, very intimately in the non-sexual senses of the word.  This may create a powerful bond and attraction, so much so that you can get them defending each other on the 'nobody kills him but me!!' theme, or simply a very deep friendship in which opposition and rivalry are the primary facets -- very much like Ehran and Harlequin, in fact.

In individuals who are mutually attracted to the other's gender, well -- that can lead to 'I enjoy our fights so much, I have to marry you just so we can fight more conveniently.'  Very much like me and my wife ....
Or just like the Villiers family.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <05-01-12/2000:14>
Or that could have been because Samantha was barely twenty when she married Richard and then gave birth to Cara.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <05-02-12/2013:03>
I thought they were roughly the same age, so Richard is roughly twice her age? Afb atm. If Kara was an adult in the late 50s it makes Richard fairly old.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-02-12/2054:03>
I thought they were roughly the same age, so Richard is roughly twice her age? Afb atm. If Kara was an adult in the late 50s it makes Richard fairly old.
Old is a relative term when one has access to the technology and medicine of Shadowrun's levels.  And Fuchi was one of the Corps that had one of the original Delta Clinics, IIRC.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <05-02-12/2104:41>
They are both in their sixties. Richard is three to five years older than her. I need to go back and check. Their daughter is around forty.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-02-12/2313:23>
They are both in their sixties. Richard is three to five years older than her. I need to go back and check. Their daughter is around forty.
And still rockin' that Cyberhand!  ;D
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mystic on <05-03-12/0030:45>
They are both in their sixties. Richard is three to five years older than her. I need to go back and check. Their daughter is around forty.
And still rockin' that Cyberhand!  ;D

Interesting because Night's Pawn was the first SR novel I read. It was a great read then, but when I went back and re-read it last year it was soooo much better becasue I had the context to know who Richard and Samantha Villers actually where!

Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <05-03-12/2158:15>
Night's Pawn is probably my favorite as well, it barely beats out the Argent ones. It's even got a funny part where he says fuck and gets teased for being old.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-03-12/2215:11>
Night's Pawn is probably my favorite as well, it barely beats out the Argent ones. It's even got a funny part where he says fuck and gets teased for being old.
Very risque back then.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Bull on <05-04-12/2243:20>
Now we do the reverse when someone says "Frag".  *sigh*

*grumbles*
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <05-04-12/2255:31>
Now we do the reverse when someone says "Frag".  *sigh*

*grumbles*

That's what makes it funnier now, we've come full circle with the swearwords. Also hackers again instead of deckers.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-04-12/2341:48>
We need new slang.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Morg on <05-05-12/0032:56>
just do what any cool writer would do... press your face in to the Keyboard a few times add a definition and call it  Sperethiel or Orzet slang  ;D
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Marak1972 on <05-05-12/0611:31>
or have a pet walk across the keyboard  ;D
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <05-05-12/1232:33>
Skraa! Bunda! Dakka! Choppa!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-05-12/1344:32>
Needz more Dakka!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-08-12/1624:33>
*dakka dakka dakka*
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: redwolf on <05-08-12/1652:15>
*dakka dakka dakka*
well i was going to double only the ka*2 but i'm not sureif it will pass ::) but way not kaka kaka
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: redwolf on <05-08-12/1658:15>
or for the sport fun : a tumake mayih a tumake mayih ringa ringa pakiya pakiya
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Marak1972 on <05-08-12/1836:35>
dakka dakka doo!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <05-09-12/0033:03>
We need new slang.

You should drop Bull and I some email sometime.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-09-12/0033:44>
We need new slang.
You should drop Bull and I some email sometime.
I talk to Bull frequently.  He wants to throttle me frequently.  ;D
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: redwolf on <05-09-12/0154:04>
We need new slang.
You should drop Bull and I some email sometime.
I talk to Bull frequently.  He wants to throttle me frequently.  ;D
i wander way? ::)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <05-09-12/2048:06>
We need new slang.
You should drop Bull and I some email sometime.
I talk to Bull frequently.  He wants to throttle me frequently.  ;D
i wander way? ::)
It's gotta be the shoes. Or the accent, or the haircut, or the insistence Bull call him "Lord of the Pants".
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <05-13-12/0636:06>
Have the known dragons (great and not) been listed as possible suspects anywhere as yet?  Anywhere  on the forums, I mean?

(Poised to dash for copy of Dragons of the Sixth World . . . )
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: bobo69 on <05-13-12/0816:09>
Since there are probably two known Toxic shaman dragons(Pobre, and Lofwyr's rival in SOX), are there any Insect Shaman dragons?

I think all dragons probably practice blood magic but only use it as a last resort.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <05-13-12/1003:35>
Somewhere in the mass of SR lore, there was a distinction made between/about blood magic:  that there is blood magic which can be permissible if used in moderation (the dragons have gone this route), and there is death blood magic which is never permissible because the consequences are so bloody dire.  It was alleged that the Azzies made the use of death blood magic a central part of their policies in the Sixth World.

Further, in the Aztlan s/b the magic used to fire up and fuel the Great Ghost Dance was cited as the polar philosophical opposite of the Azzie-sponsored blood magic.

Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <05-13-12/1025:16>
It is all the same, just some is worse than others. 'Life magic' is blood magic where the caster uses himself, or willing (not tricked/coerced) sacrifices to enhance his power. This form of blood magic is typically all right with dragons, and most of the IEs. The second type is 'Death magic', where you steal the power from an unwilling (tricked, coerced, helpless) sacrifice. That is what the Azzies do, and is how you make blood spirits, among other nastiness.

They both increase background counts (unless you know the next level secrets), and rituals using either kind help the Horrors get here quicker, which is why Harlequin had to drag some poor schmucks through the metaplanes to find Shantaya's Voice, and why Big D had to blow himself off to power the Dragonheart and smash the bridge.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-13-12/1127:25>
Thus why the Great Ghost Dance was bad, despite being willing participants.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: raggedhalo on <05-14-12/0718:57>
My understanding is that all Shadowrun magic is Earthdawn "blood magic" - because it causes Drain.  However, Shadowrun "blood magic" is Earthdawn "death magic," which is seriously bad juju.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <05-14-12/0746:08>
Then you're understanding wrong. Earthdawn blood magic (both life and death) was the same as blood magic in Shadowrun. The reason drain is so tough on spellcasters is because we are just at the infancy of the Sixth World. Remember, Earthdawn took place just after the Scourge, when the mana levels were just past their peak.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <05-14-12/0810:05>
Okay, further to my earlier post about dragons, I thought i'd list the 6W active dragons (great and otherwise). More or less looking for how people think the dragon divide is going to go.

Aden
Celedyr
Ghostwalker
Hestaby
Hualpa
Lofwyr
Lung
Masaru
Rhonabwy
Ryumyo
Sea Dragon
Alamais
Arleesh
Calozerca
Damon
Eliohann
Feuerschwinge
Henequen
Kaltenstein
Mujaji
Nebelherr
Perianwyr
Pobre
Schwartzkopf
Sirrurg
Tjurjunga
Zacaultipan
Booryazmei

Any others I've missed?  And don't say the Big D . . .

Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Stry on <05-14-12/1018:54>
Since there are probably two known Toxic shaman dragons(Pobre, and Lofwyr's rival in SOX), are there any Insect Shaman dragons?

I think all dragons probably practice blood magic but only use it as a last resort.

The word shaman may not be correct when dealing with dragons, because dragons do not follow a path like metamuhans do.   Which is why we do not hear about hermetic dragons or other traditions type dragons.   Toxic or corrupt dragon may be a better label, although I believe if their land is cleansed they may they may lose their toxicness.

Because dragons are not shaman there are probably not any insect shaman dragons, but I believe some dragons, especially Ghostwalker, would know how to summon insect spirits, but are wise enough to know not to do so. 
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <05-14-12/1044:30>
Aden - Firmly in Hestaby's camp, to spite Lofwyr
Celedyr - Likely in Hestaby's camp, thanks to her holding his eggs.
Ghostwalker - Unknown. I don't see him joining forces with Lofwyr, but he doesn't seem likely to join in Hestaby's group, either.
Hestaby - Duh.
Hualpa - Probably join with Hestaby, if only because Lofwyr is such a big polluter.
Lofwyr - Duh
Lung - Hestaby. He's one of the more cool-headed dragons, and while the Eastern dragons are traditionalists, Lung is more about preserving balance, and a war between dragons and metahumans isn't what he wants.
Masaru - Likely will follow Hestaby and Lung.
Rhonabwy - Uncertain. May fall into Lofwyr's camp.
Ryumyo - Lofwyr, if only because Lung goes in Hestaby's camp.
Sea Dragon - Lofwyr, to spite Hestaby and Celedyr
Alamais - Tough call here. Initial reaction is to say Hestaby, to spite Lofwyr, but we all know how little regard Alamais has for metahumans.
Arleesh - Don't know enough about her to say.
Calozerca - Don't know enough to say.
Damon - My gut says Hestaby, because he enjoys living it up with metahumans.
Eliohann - Hestaby, especially since his boss, Celedyr, will be in that camp.
Feuerschwinge - Unknown. Too crazy with radiation to be predicted.
Henequen - Don't know enough to say.
Kaltenstein - Hestaby. Cleaning up the environment (and perhaps rescuing Feureschwinge) is a big goal for him.
Mujaji - Probably Hestaby. Again, environmentalism is important here, and Lofwyr is a major polluter.
Nebelherr - Don't know enough to say.
Perianwyr - Whatever side Ghostwalker comes down on.
Pobre - Too crazy to care.
Schwartzkopf - Hestaby. Schwartzkopf loves metahumans.
Sirrurg - His own. 'Nuff said.
Tjurjunga - Don't know enough to say.
Zacaultipan - Don't know enough to say.
Booryazmei - Don't know enough to say.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <05-14-12/1222:39>
Then you're understanding wrong. Earthdawn blood magic (both life and death) was the same as blood magic in Shadowrun. The reason drain is so tough on spellcasters is because we are just at the infancy of the Sixth World. Remember, Earthdawn took place just after the Scourge, when the mana levels were just past their peak.

Well...IMO Drain was inherrited to Shadowrun Mages because in other case nobody would want to play cybersams :)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: TheNarrator on <05-14-12/1718:21>
My understanding is that all Shadowrun magic is Earthdawn "blood magic" - because it causes Drain.  However, Shadowrun "blood magic" is Earthdawn "death magic," which is seriously bad juju.

Lots of abilities in Earthdawn cost "Strain" (a point or more of temporary damage, essentially) to use. Not just spellcasting, but stuff like Parry and Riposte, too. It cost the adept in exhaustion, essentially. Luckily adepts could take quite a few points of damage before dropping, and it was pretty easy to heal it once combat was done. So it was fairly similar to Drain.

(SR mages are also tossing around raw magic, while ED mages used spell matrices to clean the mana, since the astral was so tainted in ED after the Scourge that casting raw magic pretty much meant Horrors would eat your soul. Think of a spell matrix like Filtering metamagic, I guess.)

Earthdawn also had Blood Magic, which caused a few points of permanent damage. Usually this was in the form of a magical item that needed to feed on your blood to be activated. You couldn't heal the damage until you removed the item. It actually wasn't all that uncommon, and wasn't considered unethical, since you only used your own life force.

Then there was the use of the life force of unwilling victims to power magic. The Therans did that en masse. Their massive stone airships were kept afloat by the life force of slaves, causing them to constantly be raiding for slaves or demanding them as tribute from conquered territories. The Therans were bad news, and Aztlan seems to be following in their footsteps. Assuming that there isn't an immortal Theran survivor secretly controlling Aztechnology....


Rhonabwy - Uncertain. May fall into Lofwyr's camp.

I seem to recall that Dragons of the Sixth World implied that Hestaby was the one raising the eggs that Rhonabwy fathered with the Sea Dragon. (And the Sea Dragon is pissed off about it.) If he trusts Hestaby enough to ask her to hatch his eggs, then he probably will side with her.

Plus, he's somewhat po-metahuman. He apologized and paid compensation for that rampage when he woke up, which... well, it's more than Lofwyr would probably do.

Alamais - Tough call here. Initial reaction is to say Hestaby, to spite Lofwyr, but we all know how little regard Alamais has for metahumans.

Back in the Earthdawn days, Alamais' "dragon supremacist" tendencies were considered second only to Sirrurg's. (Alamais just thought they should rule the younger races, while Sirrurg thought that they should scour human civilization from the earth with fire.) But on the other hand, he really hates Lofwyr. I can't overstate how much he hates Lofwyr. He's been carrying a grudge since the Second World. Of course, he also hates the immortal elves (they're his kids), and Hestaby is on the Tir's Council of Princes. So... yeah, tough call.

The other thing about Alamais, however, was that he tends to spend all his time off on his own, sulking and plotting, rather than get involved. He didn't even bother to show up for the Theran War, and that was an "all dragons on deck" moment. So he might just sit this one out and wait for an opportunity to backstab a weakened survivor.

Arleesh - Don't know enough about her to say.

All I really know about her is that she's superfocused on her mission to track down imp-infected (Horror Marked?) artifacts. She may just decide that she doesn't particularly care, so long as nobody causes any manaspikes or otherwise hastens the coming of the Horrors.


Ghostwalker - Unknown. I don't see him joining forces with Lofwyr, but he doesn't seem likely to join in Hestaby's group, either.

Is he back from his trip into the astral rift yet? If not, it's possible that he'll miss the whole thing.

The tricky thing with Ghostwalker is that he hates Aztlan, and Sirrurg's attacks on Aztlan are the trigger for all this.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <05-14-12/1901:06>
Hazard Pay pretty much says that Ghostwalker is back, though it doesn't say where or how. I'm betting that comes out in Clutch of Dragons.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <05-14-12/1913:54>
Lung and Ryumyo are being "courted" by Lofwyr both are very traditional dragons. I could see them putting their differences aside for this. I remember reading they joined up with Lof in one of the books. Masaru would join Loffy as well.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <05-14-12/2024:24>
Masaru will go where Lung goes.That's how his apprenticeship works. Beyond that, I know nothing.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <05-14-12/2211:02>
Yay! Theorizing!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <05-14-12/2322:20>
It's fun for the whole family!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Cranstonvm on <05-14-12/2324:08>
Aden - Firmly in Hestaby's camp, to spite Lofwyr
Celedyr - Likely in Hestaby's camp, thanks to her holding his eggs.
Ghostwalker - Unknown. I don't see him joining forces with Lofwyr, but he doesn't seem likely to join in Hestaby's group, either.
Hestaby - Duh.
Hualpa - Probably join with Hestaby, if only because Lofwyr is such a big polluter.
Lofwyr - Duh
Lung - Hestaby. He's one of the more cool-headed dragons, and while the Eastern dragons are traditionalists, Lung is more about preserving balance, and a war between dragons and metahumans isn't what he wants.
Masaru - Likely will follow Hestaby and Lung.
Rhonabwy - Uncertain. May fall into Lofwyr's camp.
Ryumyo - Lofwyr, if only because Lung goes in Hestaby's camp.
Sea Dragon - Lofwyr, to spite Hestaby and Celedyr
Alamais - Tough call here. Initial reaction is to say Hestaby, to spite Lofwyr, but we all know how little regard Alamais has for metahumans.
Arleesh - Don't know enough about her to say.
Calozerca - Don't know enough to say.
Damon - My gut says Hestaby, because he enjoys living it up with metahumans.
Eliohann - Hestaby, especially since his boss, Celedyr, will be in that camp.
Feuerschwinge - Unknown. Too crazy with radiation to be predicted.
Henequen - Don't know enough to say.
Kaltenstein - Hestaby. Cleaning up the environment (and perhaps rescuing Feureschwinge) is a big goal for him.
Mujaji - Probably Hestaby. Again, environmentalism is important here, and Lofwyr is a major polluter.
Nebelherr - Don't know enough to say.
Perianwyr - Whatever side Ghostwalker comes down on.
Pobre - Too crazy to care.
Schwartzkopf - Hestaby. Schwartzkopf loves metahumans.
Sirrurg - His own. 'Nuff said.
Tjurjunga - Don't know enough to say.
Zacaultipan - Don't know enough to say.
Booryazmei - Don't know enough to say.

That is really off balance against Lofwyr...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <05-14-12/2328:10>
Well, there are a lot of dragons that really, really, really like to stick it to Lofwyr.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <05-14-12/2337:07>
Aden - Firmly in Hestaby's camp, to spite Lofwyr
Celedyr - Likely in Hestaby's camp, thanks to her holding his eggs.
Ghostwalker - Unknown. I don't see him joining forces with Lofwyr, but he doesn't seem likely to join in Hestaby's group, either.
Hestaby - Duh.
Hualpa - Probably join with Hestaby, if only because Lofwyr is such a big polluter.
Lofwyr - Duh
Lung - Hestaby. He's one of the more cool-headed dragons, and while the Eastern dragons are traditionalists, Lung is more about preserving balance, and a war between dragons and metahumans isn't what he wants.
Masaru - Likely will follow Hestaby and Lung.
Rhonabwy - Uncertain. May fall into Lofwyr's camp.
Ryumyo - Lofwyr, if only because Lung goes in Hestaby's camp.
Sea Dragon - Lofwyr, to spite Hestaby and Celedyr
Alamais - Tough call here. Initial reaction is to say Hestaby, to spite Lofwyr, but we all know how little regard Alamais has for metahumans.
Arleesh - Don't know enough about her to say.
Calozerca - Don't know enough to say.
Damon - My gut says Hestaby, because he enjoys living it up with metahumans.
Eliohann - Hestaby, especially since his boss, Celedyr, will be in that camp.
Feuerschwinge - Unknown. Too crazy with radiation to be predicted.
Henequen - Don't know enough to say.
Kaltenstein - Hestaby. Cleaning up the environment (and perhaps rescuing Feureschwinge) is a big goal for him.
Mujaji - Probably Hestaby. Again, environmentalism is important here, and Lofwyr is a major polluter.
Nebelherr - Don't know enough to say.
Perianwyr - Whatever side Ghostwalker comes down on.
Pobre - Too crazy to care.
Schwartzkopf - Hestaby. Schwartzkopf loves metahumans.
Sirrurg - His own. 'Nuff said.
Tjurjunga - Don't know enough to say.
Zacaultipan - Don't know enough to say.
Booryazmei - Don't know enough to say.

That is really off balance against Lofwyr...

It's most likely inaccurate, Lung, Ryumyo, and Masaru are almost certainly in Lof's camp. He's also been talking to Aden far too much to the two to be enemies.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-15-12/0002:38>
Well, there are a lot of dragons that really, really, really like to stick it to Lofwyr.
Well, he's a dick.  Even for Dragons.  ;D
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <05-15-12/0013:53>
Well, there are a lot of dragons that really, really, really like to stick it to Lofwyr.
Well, he's a dick.  Even for Dragons.  ;D
But he has nice things.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-15-12/0017:04>
Well, there are a lot of dragons that really, really, really like to stick it to Lofwyr.
Well, he's a dick.  Even for Dragons.  ;D
But he has nice things.
Which he doesn't share.

With ANYONE.   >:(
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <05-15-12/0050:26>
quote]Which he doesn't share.

With ANYONE.   >:(

Clearly, he needs lessons.

Sharing.

And Caring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvqOwgiXR-U

(Yeah, I went there.)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <05-15-12/0054:52>
Wak, have you considered putting the things you're going to say outside the quote, instead of inside, where they look like they're being said by someone else?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <05-15-12/0108:52>
Uh, what about the possibility that there will be more than two sides?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-15-12/0143:45>
There will be, if only 'I ain't getting involved / I got better things to do' neutrality.  I will honestly be greatly surprised if Hestaby wins this one; I think Mirikon's estimates fail to acknowledge 'traditionalist vs. progressive' thinking.  Read the start of 'Survival of the Fittest' to see how a lot of them think in regards to that.

Just as an example, in regards to Aden, he would not even touch the Shroud of Shadows, because doing so could be construed as accepting the improper distribution of a dragon's belongings.    Hate Lofwyr he may, but this is a point of traditionalist principle -- the Great Dragons judge their own.

(To be entirely honest, I can easily see Sirrug, Aden, Hualpa and Ghostwalker when he gets back looking back and forth at each other and then telling Lofwyr, 'take a break, we got this one' before obliterating everything between Albuquerque and Bogota'.)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <05-15-12/0210:16>
But she did eventually get Aden to claim the Shroud.

That's why I love Damage Control. There was serious response to Conspiracy Theories of, "She attacked Dubai because some dude got shot! That's not how dragons roll." All warfare is based on deception. Once in a blue moon we do know what we're doing.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <05-15-12/0241:41>
Wak, have you considered putting the things you're going to say outside the quote, instead of inside, where they look like they're being said by someone else?

Oh dad blastit. I always snicker when I see other people do it, and now it's come back to bite me on the hindquarters.

Harumph!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: raggedhalo on <05-15-12/1037:07>
It's most likely inaccurate, Lung, Ryumyo, and Masaru are almost certainly in Lof's camp. He's also been talking to Aden far too much to the two to be enemies.

I would have thought that Lung and Ryumyo would do everything in their collective power to be on opposite sides of any line-up...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Stry on <05-15-12/1609:59>
Just because there is a war brewing between dragons does not mean every dragon is going to pick sides.  Almost every dragon is it it for them self.   I would not be surprised if one or more dragons waited by the sidelines.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <05-15-12/1849:24>
Oh lord yes.

"Hmm. Choose between you or her? Well now, that *is* an interesting question. I wonder what each of you might offer for my support?"
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Angelone on <05-15-12/1936:25>
It's most likely inaccurate, Lung, Ryumyo, and Masaru are almost certainly in Lof's camp. He's also been talking to Aden far too much to the two to be enemies.

I would have thought that Lung and Ryumyo would do everything in their collective power to be on opposite sides of any line-up...

They might fight each other but both have similar views and are both big on tradition. If it comes down to traditionalists vs. progressives they'll be on the traditionalists side. 
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-16-12/0224:24>
Oh great, now I'm seeing fights in Canadian Parliament in the Dragon Court now.   :o
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Stry on <05-16-12/1128:47>
Oh lord yes.

"Hmm. Choose between you or her? Well now, that *is* an interesting question. I wonder what each of you might offer for my support?"

Not even that.  A great dragon could be waiting to attack the winner before the winner is able to rebuild their resources, and claim the victory as their own.

Another thing is that people should not think about groups of dragons as being teams.  I find it best to think of them as nations, that may unite from time to time and form allies, but will almost always promote their own interest first.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <05-16-12/1137:04>
Oh lord yes.

"Hmm. Choose between you or her? Well now, that *is* an interesting question. I wonder what each of you might offer for my support?"

Not even that.  A great dragon could be waiting to attack the winner before the winner is able to rebuild their resources, and claim the victory as their own.

Another thing is that people should not think about groups of dragons as being teams.  I find it best to think of them as nations, that may unite from time to time and form allies, but will almost always promote their own interest first.

AHem, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y65f_0Zu-5Y

:D
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Simagal on <05-16-12/1345:46>
How anti metahuman can Loftwyr be if his hoard is tied up in the number one rated corporation, dependent on metahumans to buy its products. I think the "traditional" vs. "progressive" is a more accurate. It just so happens that the traditionalists see metahumans as subservient at best. 
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-16-12/1410:19>
How anti metahuman can Loftwyr be if his hoard is tied up in the number one rated corporation, dependent on metahumans to buy its products. I think the "traditional" vs. "progressive" is a more accurate. It just so happens that the traditionalists see metahumans as subservient at best.
Serfs you can eat!  ;D
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: All4BigGuns on <05-16-12/1424:31>
How anti metahuman can Loftwyr be if his hoard is tied up in the number one rated corporation, dependent on metahumans to buy its products. I think the "traditional" vs. "progressive" is a more accurate. It just so happens that the traditionalists see metahumans as subservient at best.
Serfs you can eat!  ;D

Deep fried troll smothered in ketchup.  ::)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: ChromeZephyr on <05-16-12/2029:51>
Deep fried troll smothered in ketchup.  ::)

That's disgusting.  The catsup, I mean.  Use sriracha instead.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <05-17-12/1252:30>
For the record, I'm looking forward to the Clutch of Dragons release. Haven't worked on it, so I don't have a clue what's in there, but I'm willing to bet that there might be some talk about dragons in there.

Just a couple of words.

A few.

A smidge even.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <05-17-12/1331:11>
Maybe a whole sentence if we are lucky... :o
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: beowulf_of_wa on <05-17-12/1337:44>
nope, not a single bloody word on dragons in the whole book. i swear. i saw a copy yesterday. yup. and um.


NERPS!!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-17-12/1853:49>
NERPS!!

Now in Red flavor!!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: beowulf_of_wa on <05-18-12/1316:10>
NERPS!!

Now in Red flavor!!

Now with MORE *****!!!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Bull on <05-19-12/0021:21>
There might be some dragon talk in Clutch.  Maybe.

I wouldn't know though.  I spent most of my section talking about something other than Dragons.  Go figure. :)

Bull
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <05-19-12/0054:49>
I have had an ass full of dragons, but that's because in writing Clutch I've managed to crawl up my own ass getting lost in the minutiae of dragons and Shadowrun in general. Nothing like sitting down to work on a draft and then realizing several hours later that I haven't touched Word but I have six PDFs open. And that's not even accounting for the days I spent looking up info on something that I didn't even realize I could spend days reading and thinking about.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <05-19-12/1024:26>
Will we hear any more about Feurschwinge and Kaltenstein?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-20-12/0640:55>
I have had an ass full of dragons, but that's because in writing Clutch I've managed to crawl up my own ass getting lost in the minutiae of dragons and Shadowrun in general. Nothing like sitting down to work on a draft and then realizing several hours later that I haven't touched Word but I have six PDFs open. And that's not even accounting for the days I spent looking up info on something that I didn't even realize I could spend days reading and thinking about.

Boy, do I know what you're talking about there.  I wonder if Catalyst would pay to have someone thoroughly organize the information ...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <05-20-12/1110:27>
I have had an ass full of dragons, but that's because in writing Clutch I've managed to crawl up my own ass getting lost in the minutiae of dragons and Shadowrun in general. Nothing like sitting down to work on a draft and then realizing several hours later that I haven't touched Word but I have six PDFs open. And that's not even accounting for the days I spent looking up info on something that I didn't even realize I could spend days reading and thinking about.

Boy, do I know what you're talking about there.  I wonder if Catalyst would pay to have someone thoroughly organize the information ...

Do you mean build on FastJack's (forum) efforts?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-20-12/1607:28>
Something a bit more extensive, actually.  An index file with links, if it's possible to link to a specific spot in a PDF.  On virtually everything one could possibly want.  Need to know Buttercup's personal aide's name?  Got it.  Every reference to Feuerschwinge, overt or impled?  Got it.  Etc. etc. etc.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: beowulf_of_wa on <05-20-12/1627:14>
so it'd be "Wyrm's exhaustive concordance of all things Shadowrun" ?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <05-20-12/1632:40>
There is the Shadowrun wiki at Wikia. You could just work on that.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: beowulf_of_wa on <05-20-12/1639:08>
or better yet, work to improve it!!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-21-12/0134:28>
I'd rather not.  There's a qualitative difference between linking directly to the official writing in question and having somewhere that 'just anybody' can throw something in, whether it's accurate or not.  Ideally, it would also be an assist for freelancers and developers in helping everyone keep up with who is doing what to whom.  "Fastjack can't be in Bangladesh in November!!  I just sent him in for upgrades in late October!!"
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-21-12/0203:17>
Does anyone know where FastJack is, actually?

...

Oh, you're talking about the one in the game.  Damnit, now I had to find our similarly-named Mod and Smite him again!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Cranstonvm on <05-21-12/1837:38>
Something a bit more extensive, actually.  An index file with links, if it's possible to link to a specific spot in a PDF.  On virtually everything one could possibly want.  Need to know Buttercup's personal aide's name?  Got it.  Every reference to Feuerschwinge, overt or impled?  Got it.  Etc. etc. etc.

The wiki layout might work for what you want, so if you limit who can add/edit (say the people who write and plan for the game and trusted lackeys) should deal with the accuracy issue you mentioned. Possibly let anyone add but needs to be approved by experts before it gets posted also deals with accuracy.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <05-21-12/2227:57>
I don't think Fastjack's physical location has ever been revealed in a book. Im my head (Totally non-official!), I always put him in Seattle, since I think he's in the Renraku Acrology there when he's used in the Decker example back in the first ed book. Don't quote me on that since it's been a decade since I've read it, but, but I *think* that's where.

By the time second edition rolled around, I figured he was living the Buffet (Jimmy that is) lifestyle, living on a boat on the ocean, just drifting around and using a sat uplink. Of course, there are also people who think he's in Detroit, sitting in the CEO's office chair, so. :)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <05-22-12/0709:18>
Back to dragons:  what's the likelihood of it being Hestaby vs Sirrurg, rather than Hestaby vs Lofwyr?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <05-22-12/0839:08>
We already have Hestaby vs Lofwyr. Since that's a provable fact by observation (See also: Hestaby attacks S-K HQ in the middle east), and your math requires an Either/Or statement, it makes it resolve at 0.

However!

If you meant to say "What if the story becomes Hestaby vs Sirrug more than Hestaby vs Lofwyr", well, that's valid. The odds here are lower, simplydue to the status of the players in the conflict. To draw a parallel, let's grab Batman, because, hey, everybody likes Batman.

Now, you have a chance to see a long arc, say twelve issues, and entire year of publication, and you want a heavy hitting badguy to take the role opposite Batman. Clearly, your go-to guy is the Joker. It should be played out, but when people see Batman vs the Joker, they can't give you money fast enough.

But you think Joker's played out. You want to go with someone else, so you look through the list of Bat-Foes. Not Two-Face, not teh Riddler, not the Penguin, CLEARLy not Catwoman, not Mr Freeze ... the bench is deep, but he further down you do, the more obscure you get. Do you really want to do a 12 issue run of Batman vs Killer Croc, much less Batman vs the Penny Plunderer? Now, I'm not saying you can't make an epic tale of PP wanting to get his greatest treasure back from teh Batcave, but, it's gonna be awful hard to pitch to the editor and when people see it on a store shelf, they go, "Oh cool! Batman against ... The Penny Plunderer? Who the heck is that? Stupid comics, I want the Joker!"

It's not to say that it can't be done, of course. The Long Halloween gives us Hangman, a new character just for that arc. Knightful introduced Bane, while the Demon's Head introduced Ra's al Ghoul. Note that these are iontroduced a new guy, rather than dug a C-lister and put them on the front line? There's a reason for that.

Hestaby vs Lofwyr is where battle lines are drawn. That's the main event. If you were told that you were getting Hulk Hogan vs the Ultimate Warrior, but instead got Hulk Hogan vs Barry Horowitz, would you be happy? Probably not.

Sirrug's story and Hestaby's got linked as soon as she came out on national... heck ... INTERNATIONAL TV and called him out. What this really did is tell the dragons of teh world, in no uncertain terms, that the Old Ways no longer applied, that she was willing to put dragons under the rule of squishy little short-lived blips. That's teh part that doesn't sit well with the old guard, and that's why battle lines are being drawn. No one's stepping up to defend Sirrug you might notice, they're lining up to defend the old ways and combat *Hestaby*. Even she isn't directly going after Sirrug, so much as saying "Hey mortal authorities, you have my permission to go arrest him. Uhm. Good luck with that, I'll be over here."

TL; DR: Sirrug was the fuse, Lofwyr's the explosion.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <05-22-12/1041:09>
TL;DQ. :) I say the following as a dragon fanboy, someone who treats them as pretty damn powerful and capable of mega-awesomeness. James Meiers hates me for this; dragons can be special snowflakes in my hand sometimes. There's a reason I didn't submit for Clutch of Dragons; I question my own objectivity sometimes.

That said:
TL; DR: Sirrug was the fuse, Lofwyr's the explosion.
Interesting analysis, Wak, though I'm not sure it's completely correct. I think Sirrurg has a boatload of enemies both ephemeral (to use Dunkelzahn's terminology) and draconic. While I think you're right, that the main event is going to boil down to Hestaby v Lofwyr, I think just labeling Sirrurg as the fuse, the catalyst that gets this show going, is missing the mark.

The dragons, especially the greats (Goldensnout included), know that while they're enormously powerful beings with the ability to plan long-term (and by that, I mean centuries down the road), they're not unstoppable. If the humans wanted to, and had the political will, a dragon could be pretty handily taken out (though the human force would suffer heavy losses). It might give them ideas, though; they can't have the humans getting ideas.

So you've got Sirrurg out there, making even the dragons look bad...and giving the humans ideas. I can easily see Aden, for instance, finally getting pissed off enough to call him out. "Look, fella, it's time to end this. You're making me look bad!" For "Aden" you could insert any number of greats.

So yeah, Hestaby v Lofwyr is the main event, and I can see a lot of carnage coming out of that over the next few decades. But Sirrurg...Sirrurg's a problem. Because if the humans take him out...and they could, if they could get their collective act together...that opens the door to humans getting the will to do it to someone else. And they can't have that.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Longshot23 on <05-22-12/1100:32>
Same theory as the Cold War-era US and USSR laying the smackdown on folks (nominally onside) who didn't toe their respective lines?

I fully accept that the simmering GD war is part of a long game, or more than one.

Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <05-22-12/1152:02>
Dammit Patrick, why are you so good at this?

I didn't even think about that angle.

Nuts!

(Reminds me, did you ever look over that Thing I sent you? Turned it all over to Jason last night for first-pass editing, but feedback's always nice.)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <05-22-12/1510:33>
Dammit Patrick, why are you so good at this?

I didn't even think about that angle.
I'm not just another pretty face, and I don't have HMHVV as my only focus. It just looks like that from most perspectives. :)

I've actually been thinking about things like this for a long time. I just never trusted myself to pitch them because I lack self-discipline.
Quote
(Reminds me, did you ever look over that Thing I sent you? Turned it all over to Jason last night for first-pass editing, but feedback's always nice.)
Got it, but have not had time to review it; life's been interesting of late. I'll try to correct that ASAP and give you some feedback. Sorry.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-22-12/1558:19>
Wait, you have a pretty face, Patrick?  ;D
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <05-23-12/0047:33>
No worries on the feedback, it's a favor after all. :)

As for teh pretty face? I'm not the one to judge. I have a mug straight out of a Dick Tracy comic. :)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Enclave on <05-31-12/0546:00>
Could someone please explain to me why exactly dragons are so powerful? Okay, I know it may sound like a stupid question but I get that they probably have some kind of magical defense that means you can't just shoot them with a surface-to-air missile or something. In their true forms they surely can't have had a civilisation of their own, they can't have worked masonry or developed a written language because they're just too damn big; when they're actually dragons their justs large, flying, magical lizards right?

Take Rhonabwy, he wakes up, murders 150 British citizens in a rampage and then just shurgs it off to the world and finances rebuilding the town - with what money exactly? Did the dragons horde massive amounts of human treasure before they went into hibernation? HM Government would have been required to do something about this and it was only just after the awakening, February 2012, so I really can't believe there reaction would be anything less than hostile or military in-nature.

EDIT: I just don't get why they got so powerful or why they were so feared when they first emerged that they could do what-ever they liked.
EDIT2: Can a dragon fly faster than a Evo Reckoner or a Mig-63? Just asking.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <05-31-12/0700:57>
Dragons are physically powerful and tough. On that count alone, they're much more than a match for most metahumans. Great dragons have lived for thousands of years. Ghostwalker, for instance, has been around since the SECOND world. And that means they've had a LOT of times to develop magic.

And just because they don't have masonry or a written language doesn't mean they don't have civilization. Dragon culture is a very complex thing. I'd suggest you find a copy of the Earthdawn book Dragons, which discusses Dragon culture in some detail.

As for their wealth? Dragons do have hordes. And yes, they are full of all kinds of shinies that can be converted into nuyen very easily.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Enclave on <05-31-12/1015:02>
Dragons are physically powerful and tough. On that count alone, they're much more than a match for most metahumans. Great dragons have lived for thousands of years. Ghostwalker, for instance, has been around since the SECOND world. And that means they've had a LOT of times to develop magic.

Right, that leads me to another question. Is the supposed power of dragons more because of the resources they command rather than their inherant abilities? Yeah of course a dragon is physically stronger than any metahuman, but the metahuman isn't going to be alone or fighting mano-a-mano; national armies, tanks, fighter jets and unmaned drones.

I'm not trying facetious, I get that they do have this power so they got it in some manner; maybe it's just because they don't really interest me that I question them?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <05-31-12/1021:09>
In terms of pure physical power, a Dragon is pretty much a big dinosaur that can also fly and breathe fire. In and of itself, impressive, but nothing *too* horrible. Something you'd cross the street to avoid, or more likely stay a block or three away from, but that's it.

BUT.

Dragons are smart ... vastly, vastly smarter than any human that's ever lived. They're effectively immortal, so not only are they amazingly smart, they've had plenty of time to learn. And what's their favorite subject? Magic! The sheer power of magic at their command tips the scales from "Kinda scary" to "Can raze a city". A dragon only flies around 60 mph normally, but when they summon a force 12 air spirit, it can move them faster while also bringing buffeting storm winds which make aircraft risky and can disrupt missiles. They use illusions, so that you're attacking the wrong place (Remember that if you can't see it, magic can't effect it!), have magical shields to repel attacks that *do* get to them, and, otherwise, are just crazy powerful magicians who can shrug off high end drain and who have a nice bullet-resistant mass behind them as well.

In a straight up fight, a jet can outfly and out-shoot one, but when they start 'cheating' with magic, it gets ugly. It's possible to down one, but it requires a LOT of planning and prep-time.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <05-31-12/1115:17>
Dragons are physically powerful and tough. On that count alone, they're much more than a match for most metahumans. Great dragons have lived for thousands of years. Ghostwalker, for instance, has been around since the SECOND world. And that means they've had a LOT of times to develop magic.

Right, that leads me to another question. Is the supposed power of dragons more because of the resources they command rather than their inherant abilities? Yeah of course a dragon is physically stronger than any metahuman, but the metahuman isn't going to be alone or fighting mano-a-mano; national armies, tanks, fighter jets and unmaned drones.

I'm not trying facetious, I get that they do have this power so they got it in some manner; maybe it's just because they don't really interest me that I question them?

After some kind of Idiot in Tehran declared Jihad on awakened beings, Aden appeared above the city...since his nest is somewhere around Ararat mountain IMO it was nextdoor to him
And with something like:

If you want to fight, look what you are facing!

he anihilated whole Tehran city. Using Magic, Powers, Physical strenght...whatever...he razed it to the ground, without even showing any interrest in human beings. Think about it as a display of his powers. At least those he is willing to display...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: TheNarrator on <05-31-12/1159:00>
Another thing to consider, on the purely physical side, is that while a dragon is nowhere near as fast as a fighter jet, it's quite possibly more maneuverable (since their flight is inherently magical, they can greatly abuse the laws of physics and aerodynamics) and probably more durable. (Much more durable in the case of a great dragon.)

A Western Dragon has a Body 15 and Hardened Armor 8 plus Mystic Armor 8 (for a total of 16). That's about as much as a light armored vehicle or armored personnel carrier. A Western Great Dragon has at least Body 25 and a armor of 24 (more if they cast an Armor spell on themselves) which is not quite in main battle tank territory, but it's close. SAMs aren't really intended to engage hardened targets, and that's just about enough dice to have chance of shrugging off the anti-aircraft missiles in War.

And that's before we factor in the magic, which is considerable. You've seen, I'm sure, how much damage a mage can wreak on a group of mundanes in the game with a Magic 6. Hestaby has a Magic 36. That's enough to frag those aforementioned main battle tanks with a Powerball spell without even trying, and not sweat the drain. Nor is she a blunt instrument: when she destroyed several Saeder-Krupp buildings to send a message to Lofwyr recently, she demolished them with architechtural precision so that they would implode safely, all while a veritable army of her summoned spirits removed the people from inside.

I'm not saying that dragons are unbeatable. Dragons have been brought down with military firepower several times before. But it's never been easy. Especially if the dragon is being smart (instead of confused and rampaging after coming out of hibernation) and uses their magical abilities to the fullest.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Cranstonvm on <05-31-12/1636:37>
Touched on above, spirits. Dragons have a fair number of spirits they can call on some of which aren't bound and just hanging out near the dragon.

They are also good at dealing with people Lofwyr talked his way past the soldiers sent to his lair.

They are smarter then metahumans by a lot, richer, live longer, magical, and deliberate in their plans. As they get older they get more powerful.

It took a nuke to kill Dunkie and he was able to contain the blast from hurting anyone else with magic. That means the most powerful weapon metahumans have can be nullified with magic. A jet or twelve won't do any damage to a dragon. An orbital laser hurt a great dragon but didn't kill him. If the great would have magic up I doubt it would have hurt him much.

No one has mentioned what I think I think is their most powerful ability: Servants and allies most of the Greats have a network of allies that could be from the 4th age that could have survived through the 5th age. At the very least their networks were rebuilt in the 6th age, built enough to rival most nations and megacorps. (I am pretty sure Dunkie had his network survive through the 5th age and into the 6th age and that would explain how he was able to be so powerful and rich with so much current items like a record collection.)

Oh, and they can read your mind with Dragonspeech. 
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-31-12/1938:52>
They also eat your soul as they eat your body, and absorb your power and knowledge when they do so!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <05-31-12/2033:39>
Calling Bull!  Canray!  Dragons do not eat your soul!

Thats what Immortal Elves do!

Really!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: beowulf_of_wa on <05-31-12/2250:44>
we all seem to be bypassing one key thing that ensures they (the dragons, of course) have as much respect from people as they can get.

we consider them mythological creatures that could never turn out to be real. imagine how many pairs of pants were ruined on the day dragons flew into the sky again.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-31-12/2349:01>
I dunno, how many Japanese businessmen and -women can you jam into a bullet train zooming past Mt. Fuji?  ;)

Enclave, I just ... the fact that you are asking the question sort of baffles me, I confess.  And without even touching on wealth (immense), mystic power (likewise), or physical capabilities (impressive), I'd just like to note one thing:  Dragons, particularly the Great Dragon sorts that you're speaking of, have IQs of roughly 400.  Incredibly smart human?  180 to 210, read as 6 or 7 Logic.  Ever see the movie 'Limitless'?  I would guess that that guy approaches 300.  Now step it up not just one notch, but three.

Next, look at our reaction to them.  These are beings of great mythological stature.  I posted (several times) to a question regarding them in the HERO Games forums; the first reply  (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/52364-How-many-Dragon-s-teeth-adorn-YOUR-shield?p=1253332#post1253332)possibly serves you best.  The thing of it is, though, is that a dragon is the entire meaning and symbol of How The World Changed.  Screw cyberware, screw VITAS, screw the Matrix and magic; Here There Be Dragons.  The Brits weren't about to send the army after Rhonabwy, since he'd just shown that hey, just having a post-nap epileptic seizure he can bloody wreck a town.  Now that he's awake, what would he do to an armored division?

Well, for more on that topic, we turn to our KSAF reporter in the skies over Denver on 25 December 2061... (See Year of the Comet, p. 59).  This is 'inherent abilities'; see also Tehran and Brazil.

For more on resources, we turn to The Dragon With The Most, your pal and mine, Goldfing... errr, Lofwyr.  See, he not only has the inherent abilities, he also has the world's largest corporation -- and the economic, political, and military might (which includes both satellite weaponry and a nuclear stockpile) that it possesses.

I'm not trying facetious, I get that they do have this power so they got it in some manner; maybe it's just because they don't really interest me that I question them?

If you are playing the same game we are, and your GM is paying attention, dragons should interest you if only in a player's self-defense.  Humanity are a bunch of 4-year-olds with Nerf bats; dragons are a 35-year-old athletic adult with a gun collection and a heavy pickup truck.  Usually the 35-year-old drives carefully around the 4-year-olds, keeps his guns in a safe place, but if the 4-year-olds tried to take him on, well, it's gonna take a LOT of 4-year-olds with Nerf bats to get him down.

I think we're just wondering how, exactly, do you mean to be 'questioning' them.  If playing AD&D, reading the Hobbit, anything fantastical with a dragon in it doesn't make you think about what happens when you give a dragon lots of years to collect treasure, give him an IQ the height of the Renraku Arcology (ACHE to you 4edders out there), then turn him loose in a world where 'dog eat dog' is only barely not a literalism in the economic sphere, then you need to face down a few more dragons in the non-4e AD&D universe...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: CanRay on <05-31-12/2353:43>
I dunno, how many Japanese businessmen and -women can you jam into a bullet train zooming past Mt. Fuji?  ;)
I swear, he was drag racing that train as a warm-up to some real exercising.  :P
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: bull30548 on <07-02-12/1822:07>
This seems like the place to ask this.  Have they established what cause Dunklezahn's assassination and the rift?  Was it suicide or did someone actually figure out a way to get a dragon?  Or better did Dunklezahn using all that power he accumulated blast a hole to the Dweller in the Crossroads.  Whom as a character had the unfortunate luck of encountering that bugger not once but multiple occassions.  To be frankly honest that bastard slapped the stuffing out of me almost every time.  Oh did I mention my running party set him loose on the material plane for a short time, lets just say quite a few dragons came along and slapped us around more.  The funny thing was the dweller seemed more pissed with the dragons than with us and protected us until we figured out how to shoe horn him back onto the Crossroads.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <07-02-12/1926:33>
There is a difference between what actually happened, and what people know.

What actually happened:
Dunkelzhan got a call letting him know that the Azzies had uncovered a power source from the Fourth World, and they were going to use it to open the door for the Horrors. Dunkelzhan uses a nuke, contains it with a ward, and blasts himself to dust to power the Dragonheart and open the Rift. His spirit possessed a cyberzombie, and went to the metaplanes to stand guard on the bridge, to keep the horrors at bay. The Dragonheart was used to 'even out' the spike point that the horrors had tried to get through earlier (See Harlequin's Back).

What people know:
It was terrorists. Or other governments. Or dragons. Or elves. Or something else. Or Dunkelzhan is still alive. Or... Aw, frag it all, we got no clue what the drek happened!
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <07-03-12/0003:17>
... do not take that as canonical.

Mirikon, why in the hell do you keep insisting that Dunk used a nuke?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <07-03-12/0105:34>
Yeah, AFAIK, no nuke was involved. There was speculation, because "Only a nuke can kill a dragon!", but that was just Shadowtalkers being Shadowtalkers.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Nath on <07-03-12/0227:04>
The use of a nuclear weapon is not canon, but has been mentioned by then-line developer Mike Mulvihill in a website interview (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=3564&view=findpost&p=98480) by Namergon.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <07-03-12/0252:24>
... do not take that as canonical.

Mirikon, why in the hell do you keep insisting that Dunk used a nuke?
It is mentioned in Artifacts Unbound, actually. While it may not be chip truth, it is certainly what Harlequin believes. Go read the Praxis section. Emphasis mine.

Quote from: Artifacts Unbound, pg 137
Harlequin breathed. He found himself able to move and blink just in time to feel a blast of pure mana sweep over him. Damn the pale wyrm, he thought. Ghostwalker slammed the metaphorical door behind him so none could follow. He didn't care to inform the assembled beings that closing the rift would expel a large amount of energy back onto this plane roughly equivalent to the nuclear weapon Dunkelzahn had used to open in in the first place. Equilibrium needed to be maintained.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <07-03-12/0254:22>
exactly :)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mara on <07-03-12/0424:53>
Back to the original topic...
How do we know that there actually *IS* a feud between Hestaby and Lofwyr?
For all we know, this whole "brewing Dragon War" thing could be a charade to
get Aztechnology to reveal their new "Anti-dragon weapon" so that, knowing where
it is, the Dragons can get it destroyed?

What was it someone said earlier? "All war is deception"?
I mean, seriously: why would Hestaby have made sure that, though the buildings were
destroyed, the REAL assets of the S-K ME HQ were not harmed? It is very much like
she was making a show of the destruction, not really trying to cripple Lofwyr's activities
in the Middle East...and then, of course, you had Aden come up and visit Hestaby...
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Black on <07-03-12/0441:14>
I have to agree Mara... the whole Dragon war sticks of a set-up.   Yes, the Dragon's are lossing some assets, but not much.  When Lowfyr wants a fellow Dragon dead, he does it up close and personal.   I think they are playing a game, including the UN speach.. but for what purpose?  Maybe they are finally dealling with the Azzie issue, maybe its something else?

On the other hand, Survival of the Fittest had a competiton between the Greats, with lots of rules on what they could and couldn't do.  Maybe this is like that?  Which would explain the minimal loss of life etc.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mara on <07-03-12/0508:15>
Frankly..I do not trust the dragons one BIT.
They calculate everything TOO much. Hestaby would have known that an address before the UN would
cause issues. The timing of the shot that killed the head of the Shasta shamans was too precise...and the
evidence pointing to Lofwyr just too...obvious. Sure, he might have been sending a message and the
assassin might have had a live feed to do the shoot at the point he/she was supposed to..but...

However, if they do not believe Aztechnology can take down Sirrurg without revealing the location of
its Antri-Dragon System, and, of course, if it is used, then it can be tracked...and "Deniable Assets" sent
after it and the files and the people who worked on it...Then again, depending on what it is..the Dragons
might just be able to justify their actions as a response to an act of war...and who better to explain their
actions to the UN then Hestaby, who has already shown herself willing to "break with tradition" and speak
before the lesser races?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <07-03-12/1032:24>
I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, the Hestaby/Lofwyr split could be just the next move in a long con on AZT, but there's the fact that Hestaby and Lofwyr don't get along, and what she is doing IS a big break from tradition. One of several in her time as Loremaster. But dragons do not tend to act so openly against eachother.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mara on <07-03-12/1144:30>
I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, the Hestaby/Lofwyr split could be just the next move in a long con on AZT, but there's the fact that Hestaby and Lofwyr don't get along, and what she is doing IS a big break from tradition. One of several in her time as Loremaster. But dragons do not tend to act so openly against eachother.

*BLINKS* Waitwaitwaitwait....I thought Lofwyr was the Loremaster? When did Hestaby become the Loremaster and
how the heck did she win it away from Lofwyr without killing him?
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <07-03-12/1156:19>
Survival of the Fittest. Ghostwalker came back and made everyone compete for the title. IIRC, the 'canon' ending was that Hestaby won, though the outcame came down to the runners making a choice on whether to betray Hestaby, or give in to Lofwyr's threat to make their lives hell if they didn't choose him.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <07-03-12/1439:46>
And anybody who thinks they've heard the last of that one is fooling themselves....
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Nath on <07-03-12/1443:51>
I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, the Hestaby/Lofwyr split could be just the next move in a long con on AZT, but there's the fact that Hestaby and Lofwyr don't get along, and what she is doing IS a big break from tradition. One of several in her time as Loremaster. But dragons do not tend to act so openly against eachother.
*BLINKS* Waitwaitwaitwait....I thought Lofwyr was the Loremaster? When did Hestaby become the Loremaster and
how the heck did she win it away from Lofwyr without killing him?
Survival of the Fittest. Ghostwalker came back and made everyone compete for the title. IIRC, the 'canon' ending was that Hestaby won, though the outcame came down to the runners making a choice on whether to betray Hestaby, or give in to Lofwyr's threat to make their lives hell if they didn't choose him.

Actually, no.
Quote
Survival of the Fittest, page 120
If the shadowrunners present the Jewel to Hestaby, read the following:
Hestaby takes the glowing crimson gemstone into one clawed paw, lifting it for the assembled dragons to see.
"Behold," she says. "The essence of the the Jewel of Memory, the lore and knowledge of dragonkind made manifest. It lies in my grasp and is now mine by right, according to our ways."
There is a long moment of silence, as the gathered dragons seem to be discussing matters among themselves. Then, one by one they begin to bow their heads toward Hestaby. Lofwyr is soon the last dragon standing at his full height and he too slowly lowers his head toward Hestaby.
Then she moves forward toward Lofwr, the glowing jewel held in her claws, and places it gently on the ground in front of him. Lofwyr lifts his head slighlt and the other dragons glance at each other. Clearly this is unexpected. Even Lofwyr seems taken aback for a moment, thought his inhuman features are difficult to read.
"You have been a good caretaker of this, Gold-Master," Hestaby says. "More importantly, Far Scholar intended you to have it. So I return it to you. Guard it well."
Lofwyr says nothing, but scoops up the jewel from the grounds and holds it. Hestaby turns to the assembled dragons.
"This contest is done, but I will not claim the title of Loremaster. As  have maintained from the beginning, it is time for us fo change our ways. Far Scholar showed up a beginning, a new path to follow where we exist in cooperation with the Young Races and take our places in this new Age that has grown up around us. I embrace that nex path, and I encourage you to do likewise. We can all of us be Loremasters and share our insight with others, learning from them in turn. As such, I declare that the dispersal of Far Scholar's hoard shall stand as he intended it. We will respect and honor his memory, and I hope that we will not forget his vision for as well."
Quote
Dragons of the Sixth World, page 192
As detailed in the campaign Survival of the Fittest, Hestaby recently earned her place at the top of the great dragon hierarchy, besting even Lofwyr and Ghostwalker in a massive ritual challenge. Though she declined to take the role of Loremaster, leaving that in Lofwyr's claws, she is using her victory to direct dragonkind down a new path-a patch originally blazed by Dunkelzahn.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <07-03-12/1453:21>
And anybody who thinks they've heard the last of that one is fooling themselves....
Hence my reluctance to believe that this is a long con between Hestaby and Lofwyr.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Sichr on <07-03-12/1512:44>
...The timing of the shot that killed the head of the Shasta shamans was too precise...and the
evidence pointing to Lofwyr just too...obvious...

Well...you`ve  sen the body???
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Wakshaani on <07-03-12/1728:46>
And anybody who thinks they've heard the last of that one is fooling themselves....
Hence my reluctance to believe that this is a long con between Hestaby and Lofwyr.

Could be a mating ritual.

Meanwhile, Sirrug is up in Roswell, New Mexico (The very edge of Aztlan), up to some kind of Draco-Terrorism. Sounds like a party, neh? :)

(Patrick will show up soon, leading a party of Texas Rangers across the border to 'take out the trash'.)
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Crimsondude on <07-03-12/1810:00>
Quote from: Survival of the Fittest, 125
"Then do you propose a mating?" Lofwyr asked.

Now it was Hestaby's turn to be taken aback. That hadn't been what she'd had in mind at alL She and Lofwyr were both supposed to be well past their mating years.

''Perhaps,·· she said, curious to keep the line of discussion open. "I had something more like ... friendship in mind, or at least cooperation."

I should mention that Damage Control follows up on Hestaby's antics in Dubai.
Title: Re: The current situation with Dragons
Post by: Mirikon on <07-04-12/0101:54>
And Jet Set has some more of Lofwyr taking stabs at Hestaby.