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Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #615 on: <06-26-19/1307:19> »
The old Karma Pool system punishes metahumans severely as they only gained a dice per 20 good karma earned, while humans got one every 10. The sky was the limit, so a upper limit was needed. 
Yet, I still prefer that form of progression to what happened with 4Es where you could start maxed out.

And with 4th and 5th it tended to get horded for a “just in case” moment since it had such a slow recharge time. Having it refresh a lot more often may help with people not leaving it sitting useless.

Granted it was fun in 3rd having 20 karma pool to just throw around at everything.

Outside of edge monsters I generally agree that is how it worked in 4/5e. And this new refreshing system actually sounds good as does generally smaller effects for edge use. From what I’ve heard I like the edge system. Just don’t think it should replace modifiers but be a add on for them as it does a completely inadequate job of reflecting the situation in the narrative.

Maybe, but I’m holding my judgment. I thought the same thing about D&Ds advantage/disadvantage system replacing a lot of bonuses/penalties. Once dice hit the table though it not only reflected those bonuses well, it helped keep add-on bloat to a minimum and (for my group at least) lead to them doing tactics they had previously ignored because the bonus was so small as to be worthless.

Advantage/disadvantage is a significant penalty depends on the AC or TN to your roll but on average a +5/-5 change. 1 edge is rerolling 1 die. And it’s not even that as it may not come into play if you don’t use it to help in the defense.

One point of edge is a 33% chance to turn a fail into a hit, or an 84% chance to remove a single glitch, with a 33% chance of that non-glitch to be a success. +/- 5 points is 25% more chance to succeed or fail in D&D, and varies based at target number.

One edge to lessen/not glitch seems like a pretty good spend to me.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #616 on: <06-26-19/1321:50> »
1 edge could equal 1 die rerolled.

it could be 1/2 of the edge required to cancel the opposition's use of edge.

it could be 1/3 of the edge to heal a box of stun.

it could be 1/4 of the edge to heal a box of physical damage.

etc.

In aggregate, a point of edge is no small thing.


Edit to add my somewhat tongue in cheek comment earlier was how many combat turns will it take to get out of a car. Minor action to unbuckle but if it’s wirelessly engaged you get a bonus moot action to unbuckle etc.

While I know you are just making a tongue in check comment in the effort of humor ... if you have a GM that enforces this level of detail (or really anything near it) then you have a much bigger problem than the action economy. The system we built the new initiative and action economy around is setup to allow you to streamline and abstract many of the things you are complaining about. just to call attention to one of actions "Take Cover" .. unless the cover is several meters away there is no need to use a move action first.

So your example of the cinematic dive for cover while drawing and firing your pistol is a simple series of Take Cover, Quick Draw and Attack .. just 1 major and 2 minor which anyone not caught flat footed can pull off without any modifications or enhancements


The rules work when you ignore the rules isn’t the selling point on the rules you might think it is.

And my example was move to as in the cover isn’t right next to you. Some GMs might say get in cover includes 1/2 your move across a room others won’t.

Banshee didn't say to ignore the rules.  He was saying a GM is probably being a Richard to make you spend an action to move in conjunction with spending an action to take cover. 

OTOH if the cover is so far away that you do reasonably have to spend an action moving, then maybe your premise is wrong that an unaugmented, undrugged, un-magicked person should be able to do quite so many things all at once.

To reiterate your original scenario: a cinematic style diving for cover while pulling a gun and shooting it? That's 1 major and (in effect with the right gear) 2 minors. If the cover was so far away you couldn't dive into it without running first, then that's not your example now is it?
In aggregate yes 1 edge is a very small thing.  Because maybe I’ll have enough to do something special isn’t a yes you do it’s a maybe.  And if it’s not used at all it does nothing to reflect that the shot is difficult on its own merits.

And yes if the rule is grab cover is an action and move is an action unless grab cover says you can move x meters as part of this action any movement past a trivial amount would most likely be seen as a a separate action by a wide range of non dick GMs. Because that’s how the rules were written. If you want to include non trivial movement up to x meters it should be in the text. Step into cover next to you sure. Run 3 meters across the room to grab cover behind the filing cabinet probably not. And that still seems like something a normal human could pull off in 3 seconds.

The entire point of free actions was to have a mechanic to cover the non stuff or roll it into other actions so it didn’t bog down your actual actions. Like unbuckle, open door, step out of car, draw gun, use door as cover. Sure I can ignore that and will, but that doesn’t make it how the rules are written and it doesn’t make a GM who takes rules a bit more seriously than me a dick. Maybe the people running the live play misstated and there are non actions or something, but removal of free actions or a similar mechanic bogs the action economy down with useless crap by the rules.

But yeah the rules are fine it’s just dick GMs playing it wrong.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #617 on: <06-26-19/1324:41> »
The old Karma Pool system punishes metahumans severely as they only gained a dice per 20 good karma earned, while humans got one every 10. The sky was the limit, so a upper limit was needed. 
Yet, I still prefer that form of progression to what happened with 4Es where you could start maxed out.

And with 4th and 5th it tended to get horded for a “just in case” moment since it had such a slow recharge time. Having it refresh a lot more often may help with people not leaving it sitting useless.

Granted it was fun in 3rd having 20 karma pool to just throw around at everything.

Outside of edge monsters I generally agree that is how it worked in 4/5e. And this new refreshing system actually sounds good as does generally smaller effects for edge use. From what I’ve heard I like the edge system. Just don’t think it should replace modifiers but be a add on for them as it does a completely inadequate job of reflecting the situation in the narrative.

Maybe, but I’m holding my judgment. I thought the same thing about D&Ds advantage/disadvantage system replacing a lot of bonuses/penalties. Once dice hit the table though it not only reflected those bonuses well, it helped keep add-on bloat to a minimum and (for my group at least) lead to them doing tactics they had previously ignored because the bonus was so small as to be worthless.

Advantage/disadvantage is a significant penalty depends on the AC or TN to your roll but on average a +5/-5 change. 1 edge is rerolling 1 die. And it’s not even that as it may not come into play if you don’t use it to help in the defense.

One point of edge is a 33% chance to turn a fail into a hit, or an 84% chance to remove a single glitch, with a 33% chance of that non-glitch to be a success. +/- 5 points is 25% more chance to succeed or fail in D&D, and varies based at target number.

One edge to lessen/not glitch seems like a pretty good spend to me.
 
D&D is a pass/fail system. Shadowrun is levels of success. A 33% chance to get or remove 1 hit is far less significant. And again if it’s not used in a way to make the shot harder the shot was just as easy as one without penalties so the shot that should be difficult on its own wasn’t.

Hobbes

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« Reply #618 on: <06-26-19/1339:00> »

In aggregate yes 1 edge is a very small thing. 

1 Edge can add 1 to any die, after you roll.  So it'll turn a "4" into a hit.  If you're steadily building Edge, one more hit for many of your rolls is fairly solid.

Quick start rules anyway. 

Banshee

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« Reply #619 on: <06-26-19/1340:51> »
1 edge could equal 1 die rerolled.

it could be 1/2 of the edge required to cancel the opposition's use of edge.

it could be 1/3 of the edge to heal a box of stun.

it could be 1/4 of the edge to heal a box of physical damage.

etc.

In aggregate, a point of edge is no small thing.


Edit to add my somewhat tongue in cheek comment earlier was how many combat turns will it take to get out of a car. Minor action to unbuckle but if it’s wirelessly engaged you get a bonus moot action to unbuckle etc.

While I know you are just making a tongue in check comment in the effort of humor ... if you have a GM that enforces this level of detail (or really anything near it) then you have a much bigger problem than the action economy. The system we built the new initiative and action economy around is setup to allow you to streamline and abstract many of the things you are complaining about. just to call attention to one of actions "Take Cover" .. unless the cover is several meters away there is no need to use a move action first.

So your example of the cinematic dive for cover while drawing and firing your pistol is a simple series of Take Cover, Quick Draw and Attack .. just 1 major and 2 minor which anyone not caught flat footed can pull off without any modifications or enhancements


The rules work when you ignore the rules isn’t the selling point on the rules you might think it is.

And my example was move to as in the cover isn’t right next to you. Some GMs might say get in cover includes 1/2 your move across a room others won’t.

Banshee didn't say to ignore the rules.  He was saying a GM is probably being a Richard to make you spend an action to move in conjunction with spending an action to take cover. 

OTOH if the cover is so far away that you do reasonably have to spend an action moving, then maybe your premise is wrong that an unaugmented, undrugged, un-magicked person should be able to do quite so many things all at once.

To reiterate your original scenario: a cinematic style diving for cover while pulling a gun and shooting it? That's 1 major and (in effect with the right gear) 2 minors. If the cover was so far away you couldn't dive into it without running first, then that's not your example now is it?
In aggregate yes 1 edge is a very small thing.  Because maybe I’ll have enough to do something special isn’t a yes you do it’s a maybe.  And if it’s not used at all it does nothing to reflect that the shot is difficult on its own merits.

And yes if the rule is grab cover is an action and move is an action unless grab cover says you can move x meters as part of this action any movement past a trivial amount would most likely be seen as a a separate action by a wide range of non dick GMs. Because that’s how the rules were written. If you want to include non trivial movement up to x meters it should be in the text. Step into cover next to you sure. Run 3 meters across the room to grab cover behind the filing cabinet probably not. And that still seems like something a normal human could pull off in 3 seconds.

The entire point of free actions was to have a mechanic to cover the non stuff or roll it into other actions so it didn’t bog down your actual actions. Like unbuckle, open door, step out of car, draw gun, use door as cover. Sure I can ignore that and will, but that doesn’t make it how the rules are written and it doesn’t make a GM who takes rules a bit more seriously than me a dick. Maybe the people running the live play misstated and there are non actions or something, but removal of free actions or a similar mechanic bogs the action economy down with useless crap by the rules.

But yeah the rules are fine it’s just dick GMs playing it wrong.

But at the same time as an experienced GM, game developer, and writer you can not possibly write a rule book that covers every circumstance in such detail and you have to depend on GM's and players both to be capable of some level of independent thought. If you did attempt it you're guaranteed to miss at least one thing if not several hundred and still end up with a rule book that was several thousand pages long. So instead you write rules that are open ended and flexible so all of the minutiae is not needed or desired. The rules are abstract and vague in some places on purpose, so don't get bogged down in details that have zero effective impact. EDIT: this is  not directed at you, just a general statement.

Overall my final piece of advice for anyone is the same thing I tell my GM's at cons while prepping ... just make sure you and the players have fun! As an example I just ran 5 days of events at Origins and not once over the course of all those missions was a rule book ever pulled out by myself or any of my players, but every table walked away with a smile on everyone's face.
« Last Edit: <06-26-19/1343:00> by Banshee »
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Marcus

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« Reply #620 on: <06-26-19/1407:50> »
One point of edge is a 33% chance to turn a fail into a hit, or an 84% chance to remove a single glitch, with a 33% chance of that non-glitch to be a success. +/- 5 points is 25% more chance to succeed or fail in D&D, and varies based at target number.

One edge to lessen/not glitch seems like a pretty good spend to me.

We can also call that a 67% percent chance you wasted an edge.  As for glitching, if your pool is large enough the chance is low enough as to be irrelevant, and if your pool that high and someone does the 5 option turning one glitch isn't actually likely to save you. So that math all just says failure.
 
As to D&D it is of course totally different game with totally different math, but if you want to go there bounded accuracy in 5e means player character are intended to have chance well above 50%. Further D&D hit points are nothing like the Condition monitors. The only penalty for D&D hp is going to zero. That's not the case in SR. The Failure Spiral is much faster in SR. Players in SR are already going to have 2/3 of their pool fail. So giving the option just means letting your player waste resources 67% of the time.

Does sound like a good idea to anyone?
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #621 on: <06-26-19/1418:10> »

In aggregate yes 1 edge is a very small thing. 

1 Edge can add 1 to any die, after you roll.  So it'll turn a "4" into a hit.  If you're steadily building Edge, one more hit for many of your rolls is fairly solid.

Quick start rules anyway.

Potentially 1 more hit. And though it may be getting lost in the message I’m not arguing that the edge mechanic is bad on its own.  I actually like what I’ve heard. I just say it’s inadequate to represent penalties because 1 one edge on its own isn’t close to representing blind fire etc.
You have to maybe have enough edge already or just be 1 away from the big spender edge move to represent blind fire and if used that way great it felt like a tough shot now you are out of edge so if she used his 2nd major to shoot again there is no penalty apparently. And if it’s not used explicitly for defense it did literally nothing to represent that the shot was a impossible shot. And I think that is a crap narrative.

Marcus

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« Reply #622 on: <06-26-19/1423:42> »
There no question in my mind, that 1 point for 1 die is bad. It's a trap, a waste of resources the majority of the time (67% to be exact). Does that mean the whole system is bad? Not necessarily, but if your house built on a bad foundation, don't be surprised when it comes tumbling down.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #623 on: <06-26-19/1429:22> »
There no question in my mind, that 1 point for 1 die is bad. It's a trap, a waste of resources the majority of the time (67% to be exact). Does that mean the whole system is bad? Not necessarily, but if your house built on a bad foundation, don't be surprised when it comes tumbling down.

I was initially going to argue that it’s not bad. But yeah as a spendable resource even if I’m adept at working the system to earn more that’s a bad buy. The turn a 4 into a 5 one is decent though.

Marcus

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« Reply #624 on: <06-26-19/1431:52> »
There no question in my mind, that 1 point for 1 die is bad. It's a trap, a waste of resources the majority of the time (67% to be exact). Does that mean the whole system is bad? Not necessarily, but if your house built on a bad foundation, don't be surprised when it comes tumbling down.

I was initially going to argue that it’s not bad. But yeah as a spendable resource even if I’m adept at working the system to earn more that’s a bad buy. The turn a 4 into a 5 one is decent though.
As long as your pool fairly large yeah probably so.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #625 on: <06-26-19/1704:18> »
There no question in my mind, that 1 point for 1 die is bad. It's a trap, a waste of resources the majority of the time (67% to be exact).

There's at least one angle you're missing (and that I know I can discuss):

1 edge for 1 die roll isn't 67% chance of being wasted.  If for example you exactly glitch, you can reroll one of your 1s and have a 84% chance of getting something other than another 1 and therefore avoiding the glitch.  Sure for 2 edge you can guarantee the glitch goes away, but for 1 edge you get 5 in 6 odds which are still pretty good, but you ALSO get a 33% chance of that 1 turning into a 5 or 6 instead.  That 1 edge option is not a bad alternative to 2 edge for a guarantee.

« Last Edit: <06-26-19/1732:36> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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sn0mm1s

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« Reply #626 on: <06-26-19/1729:37> »
I´m on the fence about the Strength thing.

As I understood, Strength still plays a role in determining the Attack Value, which can result in Edge gain (or Edge-Denial, depending on the opponent), while it doesn´t contribute to the Damage Value. That does make some sense for many melee weapons, especially Blades and Knifes. The most important factor with bladed and pointed weapons is where you hit, not how much muscle you put behind it. That´s why I actually find SR5 more unrealistic in this regard: A swift surprise attacker with a knife is a deadly threat in reality, even if it´s just some lanky methhead. However, in SR5 that Methhead (or BTL-Junkie) would never be able to significantly hurt you, even with a lucky hit. Strength was everything. Now, Strength can only give you - well - a bit of an Edge. That somewhat fits, at least for these kind of weapons. And while it doesn´t fit as good with weapons like Clubs or Axes: Lifting an axe over your head and smash it straight down is something even a Strength 1 nerd should be able to pull off. It will be a shitty performance though, which will likely give the opposition Edge as well. And if that´s not enough punishment for the potential 1-Strength Axe murderer build, the GM could also argue with encumbrance: "Yeah, you can take your Axe, but not much stuff beyond that".

There are still two major problems here:
  • The whole Attack Value/Armor/Edge-mechanic (as far as we know so far) is likely to be a total disaster. 1 Edge isn´t doing much of a difference, and with a maximum of 2 Edge per pass (or is it per round? Yeah, it´s probably per round, since that would be even worse  ::)), Strength will often yield no benefit at all - Just like armor. If that whole mechanic wouldn´t be so stupid, there would be much less grief about Strengt only counting for the Attack value.
  • With unarmed Attacks still using Strength for the purpose of Damage Calculation, Strength-maxed Characters would be more dangerous unarmed than with a melee weapon - and that just isn´t realistic, let alone balanced. The main advantage of unarmed combat is that it´s available everywhere. Using a weapon should always be more of threat than using your fists alone (apart from adepts, maybe).

There are easy fixes to these problems. One would be to tweak the Attack Value/Armor/Edge clusterfuck interaction into something more reasonable and rewarding. Shouldn´t be too hard, and it´s also a good idea when looking at the other half of that problem (armor being almost useless for avoiding damage and giving you magic mojo points instead). The other would be an option to further buff the damage of Melee weapons for exceptionally stong characters. It´s just really telling that the writers weren´t able to see these pitfalls themselfes...

Do we have any concrete values of weapon damage vs. how easy it is to get a high STR value?

Marcus

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« Reply #627 on: <06-26-19/1734:24> »
There no question in my mind, that 1 point for 1 die is bad. It's a trap, a waste of resources the majority of the time (67% to be exact).

There's at least one angle you're missing (and that I can discuss):

1 karma for 1 die roll isn't 67% chance of being wasted.  If for example you exactly glitch, you can reroll one of your 1s and have a 84% chance of getting something other than another 1 and therefore avoiding the glitch.  Sure for 2 karma you can guarantee the glitch goes away, but for 1 karma you get 5 in 6 odds which are still pretty good, but you ALSO get a 33% chance of that 1 turning into a 5 or 6 instead.  That 1 edge option is not a bad alternative to 2 edge for a guarantee.

I did actually address that. Moonshine did raise that point as it's pretty obvious one. But just b/c I care, I'll go over again for you SSDR, first point if your pool is large enough glitch odds are basically negligible. Point 2 If however if someone uses the 5 points of edge thing, making glitch odds as likely as your success odds. Then the chances are very low you're glitch is going to by exactly one. Point three if such a extremely rare circumstance occurred then for one edge you would have a 84% chance of saving you from a glitch. Finally point four that circumstance however is laughably unlikely, and increasingly unlikely the larger your pool gets. So no the majority of player aren't likely to experience that, many, many more will try spending one to re-roll one die at which the fact below will be felt at the table 

Spending 1 edge to re-roll 1 die does have exactly a 67% chance of failure, that's a mathematical fact.

Now what is this Karma thing your talking about are we playing 3rd here? Are we going back to being able to spend karma for more dice in 6e?

As to what you can't discuss it's irrelevant to the conversation until you can discuss it, so why do you bringing it up exactly?

« Last Edit: <06-26-19/1736:44> by Marcus »
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #628 on: <06-26-19/1756:43> »

Spending 1 edge to re-roll 1 die does have exactly a 67% chance of failure, that's a mathematical fact.

As to what you can't discuss it's irrelevant to the conversation until you can discuss it, so why do you bringing it up exactly?

I brought it up because your math is wrong.  Or, least it's SOMETIMES wrong.  Namely, when what you're trying to do is turn a 1 into a 2,3,4,5, or 6.  You're not always trying to turn a 1, 2, 3, or 4 into a 5 or 6, you know.

Quote
Now what is this Karma thing your talking about are we playing 3rd here? Are we going back to being able to spend karma for more dice in 6e?

Mea culpa. I didn't edit out the incorrect language before you responded.  I did mean edge, and that's what it says now.
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« Reply #629 on: <06-26-19/1819:04> »
One point of edge is a 33% chance to turn a fail into a hit, or an 84% chance to remove a single glitch, with a 33% chance of that non-glitch to be a success. +/- 5 points is 25% more chance to succeed or fail in D&D, and varies based at target number.

One edge to lessen/not glitch seems like a pretty good spend to me.

Spending 1 edge to re-roll 1 die does have exactly a 67% chance of failure, that's a mathematical fact.

It's also a 33% chance of success as well, in addition to an 84% chance to avoid a glitch. Also mathematical facts.

Quote
We can also call that a 67% percent chance you wasted an edge.  As for glitching, if your pool is large enough the chance is low enough as to be irrelevant, and if your pool that high and someone does the 5 option turning one glitch isn't actually likely to save you. So that math all just says failure.

And if you're pool is low that could save you from problems. You know if someone has turned your glitch rate to 33% before you choose to reroll (or even roll) a die, so you probably shouldn't do so unless you need to. Situations ya' know, that's what a lot of rules are there for.

Wasting Edge doesn't seem nearly as bad in this coming edition as it does in the current or previous editions, seeing as how you can get them back pretty quickly and can only have a max of 7 at a time. Besides, the QSR seems to say that you can only spend Edge on one effect per action, but doesn't say you can't spend it multiple times for a single larger Edge effect (ie: spending 4 Edge to reroll 4 dice).

We've also been focused on just rerolling a single die on our characters rolls, and the boost simply says Reroll one die post roll. What if we can force that security guard that just got a lucky roll to reroll one (or more) dice. You're listed 67% failure rate works in our favor!