[Marcus]

So category is one way to say it another is subset. For example the subset of astral beings, or plants, or humanoids, or living in the matrix. That doesn’t mean all of those don’t also belong to bigger set of things that are alive.  From the standard of alive there isn’t really a difference. As we can and have defined alive as not dead.

[Kiirnodel]

@Jack
They are categories, but that doesn't make them mutually exclusive. Semi-automatics is a category of Pistols, so is Heavy Pistols.

I think an AI could possibly be subject to a mana ball, if you had any way to target its body. Since they don't have one, or technically exist anywhere in the physical realm, good luck.

You made the "clear link" between living beings needing to be made of material using a false analogy. I'm assuming you are talking about the section from Material Link there, right? All it says is to have a material link for a "living being, it must be a tissue sample." (not paraphrasing) All that means, is that if you can't get a tissue sample, you can't have a material link. So, you can't get a material link for a spirit. The rules for material links doesn't call out spirits separately.


Also, to clarify my thoughts on the other sections you quoted:
* In the rules for Active Detection Spells that you quoted, spirits are living things. They resist with their attributes, not following the rules for magical objects. Spirits are not objects.
* The list of what type of aura it is also lists "foreboding horror from beyond all mortal ken" I don't think that is listing unique and distinct classifications.

P.S. Fun Fact: If you want to claim that Homunculi aren't living, since they don't have an astral form and aren't dual natured, they aren't active on the astral either. So they wouldn't be targetable with Mana spells.

[Jack_Spade]

@Kiirnodel

An AI in a drone body with wireless off is still not subject to a manaball

Spirits are a distinct cathegory from living beings - they are immortal without a biological body. You can get a ritual link to a spirit through its true name unlike with a real living being which you can link to through a tissue sample

But you will admit, that those things have distinctly different auras, don't you? So a preparation that explicitly reacts to the aura of a living being does not have to be activated by the aura of a spirit.

P.S. What does that have to do with anything? Homunculi have assensing and astral combat - they are as dual natured as an active focus and those can be targeted by mana spells just fine.

[Kiirnodel]

Well, I don't accept the idea of "living being isn't the same as a being that is alive," since that is just not how grammar works. A spirit is a thing that exists, it IS, (also known as a state of being). A spirit is not dead, it is animate, even immortal means cannot die, so it is alive, it is living. Ergo, it is a living being.

AI: You can target the drone, but you still can't target the matrix or what the AI operates through. Same way you can't target a rigger through a drone they are piloting. Even if you destroy the drone while the wireless is turned off, the AI doesn't cease to exist. If I remember those rules, the AI reappears on the matrix somewhere after a time.

Foci have an Astral Form while active, Homunculli don't. So no, they aren't the same as an active focus.

[Michael Chandra]

A spirit is not dead, it is animate, even immortal means cannot die, so it is alive, it is living. Ergo, it is a living being.

Spoken like a Shaman.

[Jack_Spade]

We are talking about rules text in an RPG. The sum is more than its parts, alive is not the same as living in the SR universe (e.g. E-ghosts)

And no, if an AI is trapped on a device it only exists there. That's how you capture or destroy AI.

Where are you getting that Homunculi don't have an astral form? How else would they assense? For a corporal being dual nature is prerequisite for using the assensing skill.

[Kiirnodel]

The stat block.

[Overbyte]

See, I would disagree with the statement that AI aren't alive. So fundamentally there is a disconnect there. The setting (and rules) never give a distinct definition for what could be considered "living" people are just throwing out impressions that they have and implications from lists that aren't extensive.

Yes, we can't apply the biological definition of life to these categories, but we're literally talking about magic. Spirits are made of nothing except magic. We have to use the magical definition of life here.

According to what I previously quoted.. living things have auras.. AI's don't have auras so although that magical definition may apply to spirits what definition applies to AI's?

If you just keep making new definitions of what is "living" to include things you think are "living" then the definitions have no meaning.

[Marcus]

See, I would disagree with the statement that AI aren't alive. So fundamentally there is a disconnect there. The setting (and rules) never give a distinct definition for what could be considered "living" people are just throwing out impressions that they have and implications from lists that aren't extensive.

Yes, we can't apply the biological definition of life to these categories, but we're literally talking about magic. Spirits are made of nothing except magic. We have to use the magical definition of life here.

According to what I previously quoted.. living things have auras.. AI's don't have auras so although that magical definition may apply to spirits what definition applies to AI's?

If you just keep making new definitions of what is "living" to include things you think are "living" then the definitions have no meaning.

I'll certainly agree there is something of consistency problem there in. Though not a huge one, there lots ways to explore that question. For my game, i'm gonna make the computer that AI live in or the place sprites are have an aura that simply shows up under a different astral "spectrum". But of course that's a house rule. I think AI's are alive, and I'm not alone in that opinion.  At some point it does simply become philosophy. But the point being AI can die to me that means they are alive. 

That doesn't change the case I have put forward concerning creatures with Sapient power, and as yet no one has put forward something to contradict that logic. 

[Reaver]

Well, AI's don't have auras, because they have no mass. They are a collection of electronic Ones and Zeros.... Kinda hard to have an aura when you have no actual body, or even  molecules - just a collection of electrons..

(Which leads back to the old questions  of: "Are AIs truly alive" and "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?", and does nothing for the question of if a Homunculus is alive)
 

[Cabral]

See, I would disagree with the statement that AI aren't alive. So fundamentally there is a disconnect there. The setting (and rules) never give a distinct definition for what could be considered "living" people are just throwing out impressions that they have and implications from lists that aren't extensive.

Yes, we can't apply the biological definition of life to these categories, but we're literally talking about magic. Spirits are made of nothing except magic. We have to use the magical definition of life here.

According to what I previously quoted.. living things have auras.. AI's don't have auras so although that magical definition may apply to spirits what definition applies to AI's?

If you just keep making new definitions of what is "living" to include things you think are "living" then the definitions have no meaning.

That is essentially the scientific method. When you find something outside of your current definition, revise the definition.

[Cabral]

p.282 core:
If the target is a living being, it must be a tissue sample. Tissue samples, however, decompose eventually and cease to become viable as a material link. (p.297)

This is a poor example, since the passage explicitly deals with targets as either "living beings" or "inanimate objects." No other targets are described.

By that logic, I can use Fling to launch Spirits, Homunculi, and Watchers, because they are not living beings with tissue samples so they must be inanimate objects. Do I get a bonus to the damage value if I am Flinging a fire spirit back at the summoner?

Without attempting to read an aura, you can still get an impression of what type of aura it is (spell, ritual, spirit, living creature, foreboding horror from beyond all mortal ken, etc.). p.312f

Based on how the word "living being" is used and in general distinguished from spirits and magical objects, as well as being linked to cellular life (tissue sample), I'd say no, a Homunculus is not a living being as it's generally missing the qualifications for being a living being: Metabolism, growth, reproduction, homeostasis, organization and adaption.

In the case of reading a homunculus's aura, what type of aura would you say it is?

Can I affect spirits with Control Thoughts ("affects a single target", but not Mob Mind "affects any living targets with the area of effect"?

Now, it may be best to follow the advice at the end of the third paragraph on page 302 under Spirit Basics, "it might be best to stop trying to know the unknowable..."

Decide what you want for your game, but if you need a RAW answer, the best you will probably get is rest of the same sentence: "Spirits live on a metaplane...."

[Shinobi Killfist]

Changing the scientific definition doesn’t change the reality. Also flinging a homonculous seems reasonable to me. Spirits not so sure, I’d assume most when manifested are in a form that would make it impossible anyways due to weight. But neither homonculous nor watchers are spirits. They are forces created by magic. Whether a animating force created by magic with a reflection of its creators personality is alive I’m not sure. But if it’s animating a shoe, you are flinging the shoe not the homonculous imo. Id let someone fling a rock whether it has moss on it or not. There is likely bacteria etc on the object you’d fling. I don’t find a animating force alive or not in it substantively different than a living force on it.