Shadowrun
Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign Discussion => Topic started by: Teknodragon on <07-25-11/0101:38>
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Our regular group has an Adept gunslinger with the Adrenaline Surge positive quality (Runner's Companion, p. 96). The group has noticed an increasing issue as character karma has gone up-- with the 'I go first,' combat ends usually after the gunslinger's action, on the first pass. The 'I go first, combat is over' character at a table makes combat not-fun for anyone else at the table who does not have the quality. While the 15bp cost is steep, it is seriously unbalancing in the long run.
Given my experience, I wanted to see if others have had similar troubles with this quality--I'm wanting to request adding it to the Banned Qualities List, but do not know if there is enough of a widespread issue like the mind-reading and -controlling spells are.
(Seriously... if the character shows up at the Johnson Meet at a mission, mine will about-face and walk out the door, as that's what I as a player will do. Same with any other character that demonstrates the quality. That frustrated and angry/upset about it.)
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What the devil are you going up against if Adrenaline surge on a gun ad is ending your combats in one pass for one character?
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At a guess, the gunslinger adept has been tweaked out pretty well (from the archetype) so he has a higher Pistols dice pool. Then put him with a pair of Ruger Thunderbolts and APDS ammo (or EX-EX, if he's a starting character). Then he's throwing out as many as four narrow bursts on his first pass. For APDS ammo, that's base damage 7P, AP -5 for a narrow burst. (For EX-EX, it's 8P, AP -2 for a burst.) Just remember the recoil for those bursts.
Also remember that if he's shooting four times, that's twice with two weapons, and he has to split his dice pool between the weapons (SR4A, 150). Even so, you're probably looking at someone who's splitting a 20-dice pool. And remember DP modifiers come after the split. So, for example, if he's shooting each burst at a different target, that's 4 targets, so he takes the multiple targets modifier (SR4A, 152). That's -2 for the second target, -4 for the third, and -6 for the fourth. Also remember the full ramifications of using two weapons (SR4a, 150): Lose any smartlink or laser sight bonus, and recoil from either weapon affects the other. My guess is that some of these modifiers aren't being applied.
Gunslinger adepts are supposed to be deadly, but they're not reliable for tougher minions or multiple harder targets. If this is a character playing in Missions (which, given the thread location, he is), the GM should be using the Pushing the Envelope section...there's plenty of time left in the time slot if the adept is ending the combat in one IP. If this is a regular game (and you say it is), talk with the GM about it.
All that being said:
If this character really wants to go first, there is a cheaper way than spending 15 BP for Adrenaline Surge. All one really has to do is spend a point of Edge to go first (SR4A, 74). If the gunslinger adept at your table is breaking combats, there's an underlying imbalance that goes beyond the Adrenaline Surge quality.
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If my sammie is grouped with a runner who drops folks shooting at me in one pass my character would be motivated to keep him around, but I can certainly see how it would be frustrating to players that they could not participate as fully in a combat. It doesn't allow anything spending Edge to go first doesn't do -- it just makes it so the Edge isn't required on the first pass of each combat. Its extremely useful and IMO worth 30 karma to pick up after chargen, but to answer your question on my own expereiences: I have purchased Adrenaline Surge or started spending Edge to go first every combat because going first is an awfully big deal in a lethal system like Shadowrun and the folks around me started doing it.
Should it be banned? I dont think so. I also don't think APDS sniper rifle ammo or Stun Bolt or Blackhammer with Psychotropic program option should be banned.... the game just has some elements that are really useful.
As a softer fix than a banhammer or hurt feelings I don't think it unreasonable to ask your Adrenaline Surging sammie friend to do something like suppressive fire pass one so you too can enjoy taking down some bad guys. That way he still gets mileage from his positive quality and you still get the satisfaction of blasting some baddies. Raising the TR can help as well. That way when he goes in and drops half the baddies pass 1 you can hear an audible 'Ka-CHING!' as the mission reward is improved by the higher difficulty. :-)
'Run safe...
Wasabi
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I just had a second thought that applies to Missions authors: TR6 encounters might should include some opponents with this quality.
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A few things:
1) There no more table ratings. They were removed for Season 4.
2) Any combat that you can end with 4 bursts of mediocre pistol fire was a waste of everyone's time anyway.
3) Given how little combat Missions generally has, a Mage who spends a point of edge to drop a massive stunball tends to be more effective at ending combat quickly.
4) This just makes a stronger case for versatility. When you run into someone who outshines you in combat, use it as a chance to showcase something else that your character is good at.
5) When you look around and notice that you're "that guy who goes first all the time" find a reason not to.
Edit: typo
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I agree there is something beyond the quality in question.
I got a physad who usually goes first, using shock frills. yes, she can drop a foe in one shot. but her thing is melee.
on dice pools, there is a cap of 20 dice, after modifers. even if you are taking one shot with 22 dice pool, you can only roll 20 dice. that same pool can be split down to 11 dice if firing 2 weapons, or doing 2 short bursts. 2 short bursts from 2 weapons, should cut that pool down to 6 dice/ 5 dice, 6 dice/ 5 dice, if spliting evenly. I have not found where it say split the pool down the middle. if so please, let me know.
not worrying about recoil, and other mods, how is the guy ending combat so fast rolling 6 dice? is he rolling all 6s almost everytime? on average, he should be getting 3 succeess each roll. How is it the mooks/ foes are not rolling 3 successes to dodge?
Sorry, I am just trying to figure out what the gunslinger is doing different, or how he is being so lucky?
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Adrenaline Surge is not as good as you think it is in missions, because as mentioned, Edge can also let you go first, and missions rarely have more than 1 fight of serious difficulty. Also, if the gun adept is ending the fight in 1 pass, it wasn't a hard fight in the first place. If this is a problem, ask the GM to push the envelope on the combats so they're not over so quickly - I'm sure most GMs would be happy to oblige you.
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on dice pools, there is a cap of 20 dice, after modifers. even if you are taking one shot with 22 dice pool, you can only roll 20 dice. that same pool can be split down to 11 dice if firing 2 weapons, or doing 2 short bursts. 2 short bursts from 2 weapons, should cut that pool down to 6 dice/ 5 dice, 6 dice/ 5 dice, if spliting evenly. I have not found where it say split the pool down the middle. if so please, let me know.
The dice pool cap is either 20 or 2 x (natural attribute + skill), whichever is higher. Normally, this doesn't make a difference, but if you have, say, an elf gunslinger adept with Agility 7 and Pistols 6 before enhancements and powers, he has a cap of 26, not 20. It's a little extreme, but that's where dice pools can go. And that's before qualities that raise the natural attribute and skill caps.
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on dice pools, there is a cap of 20 dice, after modifers. even if you are taking one shot with 22 dice pool, you can only roll 20 dice. that same pool can be split down to 11 dice if firing 2 weapons, or doing 2 short bursts. 2 short bursts from 2 weapons, should cut that pool down to 6 dice/ 5 dice, 6 dice/ 5 dice, if spliting evenly. I have not found where it say split the pool down the middle. if so please, let me know.
The dice pool cap is either 20 or 2 x (natural attribute + skill), whichever is higher. Normally, this doesn't make a difference, but if you have, say, an elf gunslinger adept with Agility 7 and Pistols 6 before enhancements and powers, he has a cap of 26, not 20. It's a little extreme, but that's where dice pools can go. And that's before qualities that raise the natural attribute and skill caps.
Even with his 7 Agility, and a 6 Pistols, he only gets an Augmented cap of 10 Agility and 6 skill, for a DP of 16. Split that in half down to 8, and then add 2 dice of specialization and 3 dice of Improved Pistols and you get 13 for your first attack and 11 for the offhand attack of your first Simple, followed by 9 and 7 for your second Simple Action. If you're getting consistent takedowns with a Thunderbolt and a DP of 7, you aren't fighting anything credible.
Admitedly, a Tactical Network does make this ridiculous, taking you to 17/15/13/11 for your four attacks on four targets, but that's some pretty serious pimping. Diagnostics is a big time grey area on the rules, too. You can't benefit from the Smartgun System, but can a Machine Sprite use Diagnostics on something like an Electronic Firing subsystem to still give you the bonus?
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Even with his 7 Agility, and a 6 Pistols, he only gets an Augmented cap of 10 Agility and 6 skill, for a DP of 16. Split that in half down to 8, and then add 2 dice of specialization and 3 dice of Improved Pistols and you get 13 for your first attack and 11 for the offhand attack of your first Simple, followed by 9 and 7 for your second Simple Action. If you're getting consistent takedowns with a Thunderbolt and a DP of 7, you aren't fighting anything credible.
Admitedly, a Tactical Network does make this ridiculous, taking you to 17/15/13/11 for your four attacks on four targets, but that's some pretty serious pimping. Diagnostics is a big time grey area on the rules, too. You can't benefit from the Smartgun System, but can a Machine Sprite use Diagnostics on something like an Electronic Firing subsystem to still give you the bonus?
Like I said earlier, the gunslinger adept--even a moderately tricked-out one--is not reliable against multiple hard targets. Mooks, yes, but not hard targets. Single or maybe dual hard targets, yes...four shots at 13 (or 17) dice tend to ruin one person's day.
When GMing at Origins this year, I saw more tables pimping the Tacnet than tables going without. But that means making sure every participant has the required number of sensor channels.
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From what I recall, the other player's character is a human adept, 5 or 6 edge, with about level 3 Increased Agility, and a skill of probably 6+spec. He adds Edge to the pool before splitting it, giving a pool well into the teens for each pistol after the split. APDS against heavy targets, S&S against what he doesn't want to kill. Oh, and he's also built up his Exotic Weapon: Laser pretty well to use a pair of Redlines. Pretty well-optimized for short-ranged combat, which... is about all that is typically encountered.
I understand the point about spending edge to go first instead.
I've also started a discussion about this with the group. As it stands, I may need to look into a new character to be useful at the table.
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Even with his 7 Agility, and a 6 Pistols, he only gets an Augmented cap of 10 Agility and 6 skill, for a DP of 16. Split that in half down to 8, and then add 2 dice of specialization and 3 dice of Improved Pistols and you get 13 for your first attack and 11 for the offhand attack of your first Simple
I don't want to Nitpick....but I think there's something wrong with the interpretation of the Rules
AGI 7, Pistols 6, Improved Pistols (Adept)+3 is a basepool of 16
that has to be split (not neccesserily even)to 8 with Specialisation (Sit Mod) added for two Pools of 10 each
why is there a degradation of 4 Dice ?
Lack of Recoil Comp ?
he who Dances Akimbo
Medicineman
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Even with his 7 Agility, and a 6 Pistols, he only gets an Augmented cap of 10 Agility and 6 skill, for a DP of 16. Split that in half down to 8, and then add 2 dice of specialization and 3 dice of Improved Pistols and you get 13 for your first attack and 11 for the offhand attack of your first Simple
I don't want to Nitpick....but I think there's something wrong with the interpretation of the Rules
AGI 7, Pistols 6, Improved Pistols (Adept)+3 is a basepool of 16
that has to be split (not neccesserily even)to 8 with Specialisation (Sit Mod) added for two Pools of 10 each
why is there a degradation of 4 Dice ?
Lack of Recoil Comp ?
he who Dances Akimbo
Medicineman
The degradation is for the -2 penalty for each additional target. Forgot that Improved Ability is a skill modifier not a Dice Pool modifier. Sucks for the adept.
Oh, and anyone who's afraid of laser pistols hasn't brought enough thermal smoke grenades.
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From what I recall, the other player's character is a human adept, 5 or 6 edge, with about level 3 Increased Agility, and a skill of probably 6+spec. He adds Edge to the pool before splitting it, giving a pool well into the teens for each pistol after the split. APDS against heavy targets, S&S against what he doesn't want to kill. Oh, and he's also built up his Exotic Weapon: Laser pretty well to use a pair of Redlines. Pretty well-optimized for short-ranged combat, which... is about all that is typically encountered.
I think he might be getting a little too much mileage out of his Edge expenditure.
Spending Edge (SR4A, 74):
You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count it as a hit and roll it again.
The good news (for him) is that the Edge dice aren't split. The bad news (for him) is that the Edge dice are applied only to one shot, since the Edge expenditure applies only to one test. Even though he's combining two shots into a Single Action, it's still two tests (specifically, two Opposed Tests) with the modified pool. That also means that if he's spending only one Edge, he's only exploding sixes on one shot. If he wants the exploding sixes on all four shots, he has to spend four Edge (one per shot).
And he's probably not as optimized as he could be, if he's using the Increased Physical Attribute power instead of Muscle Toner bioware for Agility. He could have up to 4 levels of Muscle Toner for 0.2 Essence per level, instead of the power that's 0.75/level (or 1.5/level above his natural max). But that's probably a discussion for another thread. :)
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Anyone that's relying on Adrenaline Surge to be fast and Improved Attribute: Agility to be lethal...isn't.
That's a character so far from optimization -- albeit a characterful one that's probably fun to play -- that there really, really, has to be other issues at work, here. There are rules being misunderstood, there's a GM who's not doing something right, there are other players who maybe dislike the guy's personality instead of his character's abilities, or something else is at work, here.
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I think the character also has about 80+ karma built up. And, there is also some background resentment on my part (character aimed a helicopter gunship at a previous character of mine and blew our mission).
Judging by the drift of the thread, the positive quality is not an issue, then.
To my knowledge, everything seems legal, aside from possible abuse of Edge. It looks like in part, the difficulty of the 'run is not being adjusted for the presence of a combat-optimized nigh-prime-runner. I also have to be careful about when and how I bring up rules mis-interpretations, due to my near-eidetic memory of the rules of the game, outside of magic and a few esoteric, seldom-used ones.
Oh, I think I mis-stated the ability... it is the one where the Adept has to roll to see how many hits' worth the attribute improves, then soaks later. Err... come to think of it, I don't recall him rolling any soak rolls (and I was sitting next to the player in question) the last few games...
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Boosting Agility is a lore more effective (where Power Points are concerned) than outright increasing it, yes, and leaves him more points that he might have invested in other combat-y stuff. That makes him make a little more sense, at least.
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Attribute Boost also requires a Simple Action to activate (SR4A, 195), only lasts a few Combat Turns, and the user soaks Drain at the end. So during at least some (if not all, depending on the GM) combats, activating that power will take up the first Simple Action of the adept's first IP. So he'd only get two shots (his second Simple Action with two guns) on his first pass.
In a surprise situation, or if he has a Combat Turn to prepare, that's another story. But if he's pretending he has it on all the time, technically he should be making those Drain rolls every few turns. If his Willpower + Body pool is high enough, it might not be a serious issue, but there's always the chance he glitches. Boost was not meant for constant use...and it's incompatible with any other augmentations except IPA.
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From what I recall, the other player's character is a human adept, 5 or 6 edge, with about level 3 Increased Agility, and a skill of probably 6+spec. He adds Edge to the pool before splitting it, giving a pool well into the teens for each pistol after the split. APDS against heavy targets, S&S against what he doesn't want to kill. Oh, and he's also built up his Exotic Weapon: Laser pretty well to use a pair of Redlines. Pretty well-optimized for short-ranged combat, which... is about all that is typically encountered.
I think he might be getting a little too much mileage out of his Edge expenditure.
Spending Edge (SR4A, 74):
You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count it as a hit and roll it again.
The good news (for him) is that the Edge dice aren't split. The bad news (for him) is that the Edge dice are applied only to one shot, since the Edge expenditure applies only to one test. Even though he's combining two shots into a Single Action, it's still two tests (specifically, two Opposed Tests) with the modified pool. That also means that if he's spending only one Edge, he's only exploding sixes on one shot. If he wants the exploding sixes on all four shots, he has to spend four Edge (one per shot).
And he's probably not as optimized as he could be, if he's using the Increased Physical Attribute power instead of Muscle Toner bioware for Agility. He could have up to 4 levels of Muscle Toner for 0.2 Essence per level, instead of the power that's 0.75/level (or 1.5/level above his natural max). But that's probably a discussion for another thread. :)
Aren't you technically splitting 1 dice pool when you are shooting two guns? If so why isn't the edge added and then split however the guy wants it to go? I mean your using 1 simple action to shoot both of your guns, and you want to use edge on that action. So you get the edge for that action, and then there is the rule for splitting them if you shoot both guns that action. Split the dice pool and 6's explode.
Explain why that shouldn't be please?
*confuzzeled*
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You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test
You spend the Edge for a test.
only after You've split the Pool thats when You make the test and thats where You can spend the Edge on
HokaHey
Medicineman
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Like Medicineman said, you spend a point of Edge for one test. In this case you are using one action and splitting one dice pool, but you're performing two tests with it, since each shot is a separate Opposed Test.
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Like Medicineman said, you spend a point of Edge for one test. In this case you are using one action and splitting one dice pool, but you're performing two tests with it, since each shot is a separate Opposed Test.
Guess that makes sense. O.o'
Does that mean if I burst fired and tried to hit multiple targets within that burst fire it would be the same? Even though it's still the same simple action of me shooting said assualt rifle?
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Does that mean if I burst fired and tried to hit multiple targets within that burst fire it would be the same? Even though it's still the same simple action of me shooting said assualt rifle?
Yes, because each target is a separate Opposed Test. On the other hand, full AoEs (like grenades and area spells) are a single test with your result compared with each target's roll.
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I'll have to keep that in mind because that sucks. XD Aw well, you live and learn. Thanks for clarifying that.
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Just a minor addition: Don't allow the adept to buy hits on the drain test. Buying hits is always optional and allowed by GM's permission only, it's there so that dragon with 50 dice spellcasting or that 60 body+armor aircraft carrier don't spent half an hour rolling dice.
Agility Boost 1 with a decent magic stat gives an average of +2 agility and only 1S drain. Many players try to get around the drain by saying "I'll just buy the 1 hit needed to soak it.". Allowing that would mean they can walk around with a permanently boosted agility without any risk.
Make him roll for the drain, even it he'll resist it 9 times out of 10, there's always a he doesn't get hits or glitches.
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As the GM in question on the main mission where the GS took out combat--he did not end it. However, there was another player who also was very well optimized with weapons, and between the two, the single badguy WAS taken out quite quickly.
That said, the gunslinger player has discovered he was misusing armor stacking, and a couple other rules, and is now much much more in line with his fellow runners.
The really sad thing, is that Tecknodragon, above, instead of being 'useless' made the run amazingly more efficient due to his use of drones. On the one hand, since he has made a new character, I do not need to worry about the stinking drones anymore. On the other--the team is now without a rigger. He may discover his rigger char was more advantageous to the party than he thought. Shooting bad guys is not the be-all end-all in Missions.
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Greetings it is I the Adept Gunslinger for wich the discussion depicts. and I just want to explain a couple things.
1- I am relitively new to shadowrun, but this is the first character i ever MADE BY MYSELF. and not using a premade "archtype" i built him from the ground up and if i knew what i know now about the world and game now i might have made him different then but hes like a cancer that is growing on me so i been sticking with him (getting close to the prime runner karma now) for better or worse. I specifically made him teh GSA because when we as a group first started to do Missions i wanted to play the "combat guy" something i never played before (before this my only 2 characters were both STOCK Decker (old edition when i didnt know how to play the game i just rolled dice when i told the dm what i wanted to do) to 4th edition STOCK combat mage. So i didnt make him to BE cheesey, But Cheese is what he became. and the challenge i have been having with him is putting him in situations where he has to use his other skills (what few he has) the idea was never to "hog" the combat, but to dominate it. meaning in a group of bad guys i would ask the group who they wanted me to take out and focus on them while the group worked on the other. In the Mission that Tekky is refering to had a LOT of "one man/creature" combat and i was one of 2 gunslingers at the table (and we were playing with 8 players and only playing at TR 4) plus i was rolling INSANELY good, i dont remember ever rolling less than 8 hots, even when i recoiled down to 9 dice pool for my follow up double taps. So this mission whatever i didnt kill the other slinger was sure to kill. it wasnt meant to be selfish it was a job.
2- ther has been alot of rules either misunderstood or simply not used as im learning the game and finding things out that i havent been implimeting correctly until just recently (thanks mostly to hero labs shadowrun character builder) mostly agility boost, encomberance and edge pool usage.
3- my laser pistols have never been as insane (dicepool wise) as my pistols are (-5 dice) due to having to learn a "exotic weapon skill" instead of using my pistols skill. but you gotta love the damage when the redlines penetrate -half armor.
4- as it stands now after being "fixed" by the Hero labs character creator. my Non modified pistols dice pool is 14, and my non modified dice pool for the redlines is 9. (i shouldnt say non modified since that is including encumberance negatives) with that I can use agility boost (i can roll 8 dice but can only boost a max of 4 more due to human limitations) and i can bump edge for an extra 5 dice (i almost always use edge in my first 2 shots) so my normal dice pools are 19-23 for pistols (with a dicepool cap of 23) and 14-18 for redline lasers (with dicepool cap of 20)
5- having the encumberance rules applied forced me to spend karma to increses his body rather than going to increasing his magic rating to 7 as what im working on now. when i get it to 7 ill gain one power point wich i can use to give him ascesing, and i hope to save up enouph to get him a weapon foci so he can melee some spirits when needed to.
ill try and post my character sheet later tonight if i get a chance (just be gentle in picking it apart as i mentioned im still kinda new)
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I wouldn't sweat it, man. A die pool of 9-14 or so for a primary combat dude? That's nothing to feel guilty/"cheesy" about. I think the issue may stem more from combats not being challenging enough in general, as opposed to your character dominating them -- if you've got 8 PCs all shooting at a single opponent, of course the guy's likely to drop!
Welcome to the boards, and I'm just glad to see someone havin' fun with an adept. :)
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Oh i forgot to mention the Drain issue, I have always rolled soak, but because i misunderstood the way the power works it never had become an issue, I actually originally played it were the number of hits was the number of hours the boost was in effect. and in alot of times this was a handicap for me (when i rolled 1 hit on a boost i played that simple 1 for a WHOLE game hour, instead of a turn, and then just soak and then re-roll my next boost attempt.) After finding out i was playing it wrong it actually benefits me doing it by turns, because of the fact that if i roll 1 or 2 then i can re-try it on the next turn or two and get a better roll. were before if i rolled a 1 or a 2 i was screwed. this also explains why i never needed to use a simple action "in combat" to boost because i would boost before combat started (usually when the theme music changed to "danger music lol"
as of now i have been forgetting to remember to boost on my first turn or if at all (got to find away to remind myself LOL) and I still Do soak drain, but alot of times it doesnt play into importance because in jobs were we finish the final fight the Dm's sometime like to just wrap it all up. and so it doesnt seem like doing drain is needed since the mission is technically over, even tho in game my character still would have to drive back to the Johnson or whatever. but either way the soak is stun wich is healed up after the mission is anyway so in the instances were we end after the combat (or do a quick wrap up) i dont see a need to soak for stun that will just be healed again, if it iwas a matter of life or death then i could see it being a differnt scenario and would absolutely roll for it . but if im at full health looking at a max stun of 4, i dont see what it matters if the game is over if i just overlook the drain. and lately ALOT of the missions have been ending in that manner. so i dont see a problem with it nor does the Dm's seem to think it matters in that instance.
Also we been p[aying missions and ever since the mission in wich tekky speaks of, our table rating has skyrocketed to 6 for almost every mission now, and I as a GSA can certanly notice the difference. in the current mission we are playing my character even got knocked the $&%^ OUT due to some nasty gunfire. (once again i forgot to boost my agility on the first turn and took a lot of fire on the second turn. cuz even tho i have the adrenaline surge (wich only works for the first combat pass) my ini is only 10
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Victor Mortimer (street name Vic)
Player: Dave
Metatype: Human; Male; Age: 30; Height: 1.76m; Weight: 78kg;
Hair: Brown; Eyes: brown; Skin: tan
Total Karma: 94; Current Karma: 3; Street Cred: 9; Notoriety: 1;
Public Awareness: 3
Attributes
Body. . . . . . . . . . . . . .4
Agility . . . . . . . . . . . .6
Reaction . . . . . . . .4/6
Strength . . . . . . . . . .2
Charisma. . . . . . . . . .2
Intuition. . . . . . . . . . .4
Logic . . . . . . . . . . . . .2
Willpower . . . . . . . . .4
Initiate Grade . . . . .1
Edge . . . . . . . . . . . . .5
Essence . . . . . . . . . .6
Magic . . . . . . . . . . . .6
Initiative . . . . . . .8/10
Initiative Passes .1/3
Active Skills
12 Blades 6 (Agi) (swords +2)
5 Con* (Cha)
5 Disguise* (Int)
5 Etiquette* (Cha)
9 Exotic Ranged Weapon: Laser 3 (Agi)
7 Infiltration* (Agi)
5 Leadership* (Cha)
5 Negotiation* (Cha)
7 Palming* (Agi)
8 Pilot Aircraft 2 (Rea) (rotary wing +2)
8 Pilot Ground Craft 2 (Rea) (Bike +2)
14 Pistols 8 (Agi) (machine pistols +2)
5 Shadowing* (Int)
* Influence Group 3
* Stealth Group 1
Knowledge Skills
7 Black Market 3 (Int)
3 Corporate Wars 1 (Log)
6 Crook Hangouts 2 (Int)
4 Japanese Polotics 2 (Log)
4 LoneStar Procedures 2 (Log)
6 Mafia 2 (Int)
3 Magic Background 1 (Log)
4 Military 2 (Log)
4 Security Design 2 (Log)
4 Security Procedures 2 (Log)
6 Street Gangs 2 (Int)
7 Yakuza 3 (Int)
Language Skills
N English
6 Japanese 2
7 Russian 3
Positive Qualities
Adept
Adrenaline surge
Ambidexterous
Negative Qualities
distinctive style
Incompetent: Archery
Sensitive System
Adept Powers
Attribute Boost (4): Agility
Improved Ability (2): Pistols
Improved Reflexes (2)
Mystic Armor (3)
initiate Metamagic Powers
Adept Centering
Weapons of choice, Ares Predator IV Modified with ceramic parts, Gas vent, and Full auto Selector w/ extended clips (x2) mostly loaded with S&S (really haven't used Full auto selector since i got the redlines) the group decided that S&S could not be shot full auto (which is OK because that would get expensive REAL FAST)
for lethality i now have a pair of Redlines and recently acquired a power pack for them. both redlines and power pack were special gifts in certain missions, most notably the finale of New york
Other than life style the only thing i purchased for my character is the modified pistols, and his Helicopter. (wich i saved up from for almost 2 full season to finally get)
Hope to save up now to give him magic 7 wich will give him ascensing, and also get him a Weapon foci (sword) so he can be a threat in the astral as much as he is in real world)
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The character is not the problem, here.
If one character on the team is wiping the board in a single pass, the GM has not properly scaled his encounters.
Someone in the party will always be the fastest. Maybe not all the time, but most of the time. If one guy is taking out all the bad guys in his first pass with enough frequency to be perceived as a problem, the GM needs to evaluate his roster of foes and his tactics.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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My character doesnt "wipe the board" but USUALLY by the time round two (not pass 2) my character has taken out the top threat, leaving the "goons" that are left over for the rest of the team to take out'
the particular mission we were playing that got Tekky to post, had SO MANY Variables that put the play "outta wack" but we all rolled with it.
1- We were playing TABLE RATING 4, with 8players (we had 2 visiting players from another country who were in town for Gencon)
2- one of the visiting characters had also an impresive Gunslinger specialist (dont remember if he was cyber or adept) all i remember is he was rolling as many dice as me and doing more damage (full auto)
3- I never rolled anything less than 8 hits in combat. my dice were Magical that day.
4- the mission was designed with alot of "single monster" combat
5- Tekky always had a bad initiative roll, whatever was left after i took my turn, the other adept would finish off. so Tekky never really had a chance to shoot anything because it was always dead by his ini turn.
(sidenote had i known this was a concern i would have just delayed and gave him a chance, but with 8 players its hard to notice one player when everyone else is over scrambling my attention span im glad we dont play 8 players except this special situation once a year)
6- i think the GM mis counted a few dodge or attack rolls to the tables favor, weather intentional or due to keeping focused on a 8 PLAYER table i'm not sure. (tho she's A really Good GM and so im inclined to the she was BEING NICE that day with alot of the rolls and rules because of our visiting Friends)
i think one big flaw i have seen so far, is ALOT of the bad guys are generic and use stat blocks from the book (or worse when they use the sample premade characters in the core book) but over the last couple missions i notice that MOST of the bad guys (even at rating 4-6) Dont have initiative passes greater than 1 ( i did recently get knocked out by a StreetSam who had 3 passes, but the other guys finished him and was able to revive me) to me it seems like there should be at least 1 character who has 3 passes in every bad guy mob. other wise my character can get 12 shots before they can return fire, (thats doing 3 passes of 2 hand pistols doing Double tap SA shots) (not even counting the Full Auto machine pistols i could use)
is there a DM option to spend karma to gain an initiative pass? i could see this being used can be a big threat (if there is a rule for it)
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i think one big flaw i have seen so far, is ALOT of the bad guys are generic and use stat blocks from the book (or worse when they use the sample premade characters in the core book) but over the last couple missions i notice that MOST of the bad guys (even at rating 4-6) Dont have initiative passes greater than 1 ( i did recently get knocked out by a StreetSam who had 3 passes, but the other guys finished him and was able to revive me) to me it seems like there should be at least 1 character who has 3 passes in every bad guy mob.
There are options right there in the Missions (or at least there should be) for a GM to ramp up the difficulty. In my admittedly limited experience, most Missions are written to be easy, with options included to make them more difficult (my own, for instance, were written that way, based on the principle that it's easier for an experienced GM with experienced players to ramp up difficulty, than it is for a new GM with new players to try and ramp down difficulty).
It's trivially easy for most NPCs to be given additional initiative passes, by a GM who looks at the NPCs before the game starts, looks at his PCs character sheets, and decides to bump them up a notch or two. And, in fact, GMs are told to do so, in order to customize the difficulty of their Mission to meet their game.
However...
other wise my character can get 12 shots before they can return fire, (thats doing 3 passes of 2 hand pistols doing Double tap SA shots) (not even counting the Full Auto machine pistols i could use)
I think maybe you guys are misunderstanding initiative passes or something. How is it that your guy is getting all 3 of his passes before the opposition can return fire?
In SR4, everyone takes their first pass (in initiative order, highest to lowest). Everyone. Then, those who have survived and have a second pass, take their second pass (again in initiative order). Then, those who have survived and have a third...and finally, anyone who might have a fourth.
You shouldn't be getting three passes of shooting before bad guys get to respond.
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Sorry forgot to clarify, They Do respond but usually (not always) they have to do a full Dodge to deal with my dice pool. and if they have 1 pass they just used thier action to dodge.
So yea sometimes the 1 pass bad guys will shoot at me in the pass#1, usually with alot of damage modifiers from my "adrenaline surge" granted first turn but they BETTER hit me cuz if they dont Im throwing bullets at them for 2 more passes.
I will say facing the Street sam last sunday who got me good, was a wonderfull change of pace. I took out the mage and another grunt but the sami came outa no were and trumped my distinctive style like i was a freshman sitting at the Senior table. thankfully he was properly disposed of by the rest of the team.
the one thing i dont understand about Initiative passes is when driving, It doesnt seem right that because i get 3 ini passes and my bike can go 200 MPH, and another person with 1 pass can go 200mph, why i get to move 3x and he only once (result in me going further) it seems it should be limited to the vehicle by a ROUND limit to make more sense to me.
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i have noticed in Season 4 missions that some of the NPCs are gettign tougher
3 Edge for a baddie can get wild, and several players wounded
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Erk, should have made this reply a while back: Things have been worked out, and I've accepted that the problem worked out to be a mix of my frustration, combined with a very large table. The issue with Adrenaline Surge itself was resolved for me in the first few replies others made-- that is, not a widespread problem.
Given my habit of building SR characters when bored or trying out a concept, I should pass a few of those sheets on to the GM, or build some equivalent in power to Red Samurai, or corpsec, or gangers.
Last, Someone needs to write a mission or adventure revolving around the PCs being hired to find out why the Red Samurai have infiltrated just about every other corp's security teams...
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My character doesnt "wipe the board" but USUALLY by the time round two (not pass 2) my character has taken out the top threat, leaving the "goons" that are left over for the rest of the team to take out'
Just a quick question - how do you know which NPC is the top threat? I mean, it's not like the NPCs have little names floating over their heads so you know which one is important ;)
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My character doesnt "wipe the board" but USUALLY by the time round two (not pass 2) my character has taken out the top threat, leaving the "goons" that are left over for the rest of the team to take out'
Just a quick question - how do you know which NPC is the top threat? I mean, it's not like the NPCs have little names floating over their heads so you know which one is important ;)
You don't play with AR Help, Do You ;D
with an augmented Dance
Medicineman
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My character doesnt "wipe the board" but USUALLY by the time round two (not pass 2) my character has taken out the top threat, leaving the "goons" that are left over for the rest of the team to take out'
Just a quick question - how do you know which NPC is the top threat? I mean, it's not like the NPCs have little names floating over their heads so you know which one is important ;)
You don't play with AR Help, Do You ;D
with an augmented Dance
Medicineman
Nah, I never took that Positive Quality for any of my characters - couldn't justify the BP cost :P
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BIggest threat, well I ask the team who they want me to kill first. if no one answers then i blast the awakened. tho that didnt do me any good last week cuz the street sam subdued me after i took out the awakened, tho when the awaken whent down his spirit ran away so maybe it was still good choice