[Ghost Rigger]

Furthermore you get edge every time you make a vehicle test (piloting, gunnery, doding an attack, etc). Freely flowing edge puts a control rig dice pool way over the top of another dice pool, even if it's comparable in size.

That doesn't mean anything when you can only gain 2 edge points per round.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Furthermore you get edge every time you make a vehicle test (piloting, gunnery, doding an attack, etc). Freely flowing edge puts a control rig dice pool way over the top of another dice pool, even if it's comparable in size.

That doesn't mean anything when you can only gain 2 edge points per round.

It does mean that you should usually be going into combat with a full up edge pool.

And it also means that you're that much more likely to actually GET those 2 edge points per combat round.

[duckman]

It does mean that you should usually be going into combat with a full up edge pool.

And it also means that you're that much more likely to actually GET those 2 edge points per combat round.

You don't treat driving and the subsequent combat as separate scenes, SSDR?  Our group normally has a scene break there where edge would be reset.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Potentially, sure.

Potentially, not.

Scene breaks are pretty much GM fiat.  Still, noone has easier access to gaining Edge than Riggers.  Literally: anything I do gives me edge! Even if a fight breaks out soon after an edge reset, if the rigger was trying to infiltrate some facility with a sneaky drone, or trying "drive casual" while parking nearby, that's more edge.   A GM would have to reset edge, then immediately start an ambush... and that's basically not very cool way to handle rigger edge gains.

There's already mechanics in place to limit edge gain, which is necessary for characters that can easily farm it.  If there's no opposition or serious consequences for failure, the GM can withhold edge.  So no doing donuts in the parking lot just to cap edge out.

[Hephaestus]

...  You're not a Rigger but you can drive as good as one.

I'm curious what makes you say this.

Meatbody/AR driving: You get to use Reaction, which is an easier buff than Intuition.  What else am I missing?  Because the Control Rig's dice pool bonus basically compensates for lost potential Reaction and Agility augmentations, and stacks with any Intuition and Logic augmentations you ARE able to score.  Furthermore you get edge every time you make a vehicle test (piloting, gunnery, doding an attack, etc). Freely flowing edge puts a control rig dice pool way over the top of another dice pool, even if it's comparable in size.

So, a few things.

- A wired up Street Sam or a Mojo'd Adept will have 5d6 initiative dice, meaning an extra action over the 4d6 that a Rigger gets while jumped in.
- The bonuses from augs/magic can match or even exceed the +3 from an insanely expensive (both nuyen and Essence) Rating 3 Control Rig.
- The edge you get is a bonus edge for that test only, so no you cannot store edge from the Control Rig.
- Control Rigs no longer lower the thresholds for Piloting tests, so everybody is rolling against the same target numbers.

All in all, the Street Sam or the Adept look to be better options.

[Hobbes]

Furthermore you get edge every time you make a vehicle test (piloting, gunnery, doding an attack, etc). Freely flowing edge puts a control rig dice pool way over the top of another dice pool, even if it's comparable in size.

That doesn't mean anything when you can only gain 2 edge points per round.

Pretty much this.  Mechanical ways to gain Edge are plentiful.  Yes, sometimes the Jumped in Rigger with a VCR will get 1 more Edge when the Reaction based pilot would not.  But 3 Essence and 270k Nuyen would be far and away the most expensive Edge gaining gear I can find.  I really question the mechanical worth of the Vehicle Control Rig given the 2 Edge per turn limit.  And the rarity of Vehicle control tests.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'm curious what makes you say this.

So, a few things.

- A wired up Street Sam or a Mojo'd Adept will have 5d6 initiative dice, meaning an extra action over the 4d6 that a Rigger gets while jumped in.

Granted, Riggers aren't meant to displace the combat specialists as the premiere combatants. Still, +5d6 is the hard cap anyone gets and arguably, a Rigger isn't restricted to the hot sim dice bonus. Remains to be seen/clarified, but augmentations and/or drugs may still allow a character in hot sim to hit 5d6.

- The bonuses from augs/magic can match or even exceed the +3 from an insanely expensive (both nuyen and Essence) Rating 3 Control Rig.

Yes, but not by much.  Augmentations are capped at +4. Hard stop. Yes agility and reaction are easier to augment than logic and intuition, but there are some options.  And if you bring magic into the picture, a teammate (or a burned out rigger mage) can cast Increase Attribute. Relevant attributes are different, but they still all cap at +4 from augmentations.  Furthermore, you've also got a hard cap of +4 from bonus dice on any skill test (pg 39) so you're not going to do much better than a Control Rig.

- The edge you get is a bonus edge for that test only, so no you cannot store edge from the Control Rig.

Per page 283:  "When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone,
the control rig provides its rating as a dice pool
bonus on all vehicle skill tests and a bonus point
of Edge."

No use-or-lose restriction is given.

- Control Rigs no longer lower the thresholds for Piloting tests, so everybody is rolling against the same target numbers.

That is true.  The edge gain replaces this.  Someone with Reaction as tricked out as a Rigger's Intuition is, with equal skill, roll comparable dice pools before factoring in gear.  Control rigs give riggers more dice still, or maybe just makes up for an unaugmented Intuition vs an augmented Reaction. Quantitatively, the non-rigger can at best match a rigger dice pool for dice pool.  The rigger's advantage is in the edge gain.  Sure you can give your sammie or adept gear or augmentations that let them gain edge too, but not necessarily edge gains for driving the vehicle.

[Ghost Rigger]

The rigger's advantage is in the edge gain.

In other words, the rigger has no meaningful advantage.

[Typhus]

The rigger's advantage is in the edge gain.  Sure you can give your sammie or adept gear or augmentations that let them gain edge too, but not necessarily edge gains for driving the vehicle.

But not necessarily not edge gains for driving the vehicle either.

It's a very expensive "maybe", even if the maybe is "probably".  It's still not a guarantee.  Lowered thresholds are guarantees.  Riggers have mechanically lost functionality.  You can put a bow on it, but that's the facts here.  Riggers are no better at driving vehicles than anyone else, unless they spend Edge, which anyone else can do too.  Riggers just *may* be able to do so more often.  That is neither a solid mechanical reward worthy of the investment nor an emotional reward at the table.  Maybe the bonus to drone controlling is worth the rig, but for driving?  Let the sammie take the wheel.  I'll run the drones instead.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I guess I should update my avatar to a picture of Mugatu, because listening to "but there's no value in gaining edge" or "Riggers were somehow better than adepts or technomancers at driving before in 5e" makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Edge is the most important meta resource in 6th edition.  Getting edge for rolling any dice at all (while jumped in) is HUGE.  It makes up for having a comparable dice pool with someone who's not getting edge simply for rolling the dice.  Heck, it makes up for even having a smaller dice pool, if that were the case.

And hello? Riggers are now just as good as adepts and technomancers at driving? That's a fragging improvement over 5e, where Riggers were worse.

[Xenon]

A jumped in rigger will be better at driving than muscle with piloting skill and tricked out reaction plus initiative, but in SR5 the direct dice pool vs threshold difference was huge. In SR6 the difference mostly lies in more reliable edge gain (but, depending on how much you value edge boosts and edge actions, this is also huge - not just as easy to compare to bigger dice pools and smaller thresholds).

Muscle characters will have a hard time gaining edge during a street race. In fact not sure what they could do to qualify for edge gain at all. Normally you seem to gain edge during social situations and from AR/DR during combat or hacking. None of that applies (unless perhaps you are shooting each other during the street race)

Beyond that there seem to be mostly qualities, gear and augmentations.

There are no qualities that give you extra edge in this situation.
And there is no gear that provide you with edge while racing, either.

The only augmentation that grant edge is the Control Rig (and it seem to generate edge very quick!)

[incrdbil]

on the bright side, I've now come up with a million ides for helping riggers in my 5e game.

[Hephaestus]

Considering the average base threshold for on-road vehicle driving is 3-4, and both damage and speed intervals lower your dice pool, a Rigger getting a lower threshold would be truly HUGE. And it would set them far apart from anything a Street Sam or and Adept could hope to hit.

Although, using the current rules, you can get a total dice pool of 20 for being jumped in to your Chosen Vehicle Type, so long as you dump 34 karma into Exceptional Attribute (Intuition), Aptitude (Piloting), Specialization (Chosen Vehicle Type), and Expertise (Chosen Vehicle Type). You just won't have much of a character beyond being able to do the one thing.

EDIT: A pool of 20 dice starts becoming less relevant once you speed up (-1 per speed interval) and start taking damage (+1 threshold per three boxes of damage). A Ford Americar starts with 14 HP, a speed interval of 20 meters per combat round, and handling thresholds of 4/5. Driving at 80 meters per round (60 mph) drops the pool to 16 (5.3 hits), and taking 6 points of damage raises the thresholds to 6/7. Its a good thing Riggers get all that extra edge, because they are going to have to manipulate the hell out of their dice pools to not crash.

[Hobbes]

Reaction pilot vs Jumped in Rigger the dice pools can be equal.  With a Reflex Recorder the Reaction based pilot gets to 17 dice, the Jumped in Rigger gets to 16 Dice.  Basically equal. 

Edge gain.  GM Fiat, do something Awesome get Edge, applies to both.

Tactical Advantages such as Low Light in the Dark, Pre-planned and practiced route, Street Bike in a crowded road, ect, ect, ect, applies to both.

AR/DR from shooting at stuff or being shot at applies to both.

Analytical Mind from using Logic plus Engineering to fire mounted weapons, applies to both.  IMO this is the main advantage of the Jumped in Rigger as they'll likely have more dumped physical stats to pump up Logic.  However the virtues of dumping meat stats in order to get a few  more dice of Vehicle Gunnery are debatable.

Reaction based pilot has 4 ways to gain edge.  How often the Jumped in Rigger gets Edge when the Reaction based pilot wouldn't will be very table dependent, but a dedicated wheelman / Reaction based pilot should be generating 1 or 2 Edge per turn.  Just like any other PC.

I presume in 3 or 4 years when the Rigger book comes out we'll get a list of Edge Actions that only Jumped in Pilots can use. 

And all of the above aside, a well build combat character that invests in Piloting will be within a couple dice of a Rigger with just a Skill Point investment.  Unless your table is the exception and Vehicle tests are common, odds are a Street Sam or Physical Adept will be able to handle the Vehicle tests for the team.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Because 6we caps bonus dice at +4, the size of dice pools are kind of plateau'd.  Skill + Attribute (+augmentation) +up to 4 dice. Applies to everyone and everything.

Since there's little quantitative difference between the meatdriver and the rigger, it's a question of qualitative difference.  And that's the edge gain.  Yes, edge gain is ultimately GM fiat.  But the GM would have to be deliberately screwing the Rigger's player in order for the meat-driver to have any kind of comparable edge generation.

BTW vehicle tests should be common? Make a piloting test? obviously.  What appears to not be as obvious is gunnery tests, dodge tests, etc are all also vehicle tests...