[Mantis]

That rule is removed in the latest PDF version. At least I've never seen it. So people having issues with this silly rule just need to update their PDFs and it goes away. Problem solved as it was never in a print version.

[Ninja137]

Another thing to note is that Bows lose out on BF/FA modes, suppressive fire, and quite a bit of range over weapons that would typically do comparable damage.

[Sichr]

Well, it is  bow, isnt it? You want FA, buy Stoner. You want 1,5 km range, Buy B121. You want to go medieval, byu bow, well dont expect the same thing as from Panther

[Ninja137]

Well, it is  bow, isnt it? You want FA, buy Stoner. You want 1,5 km range, Buy B121. You want to go medieval, byu bow, well dont expect the same thing as from Panther

That isn't really what I'm saying here. With a bow, you get your base damage+ hits, which is pretty respectable damage. With a gun, you get more range, BF, FA, suppressive fire, and more types of ammo. Plus being able to use a bow on something really even approaching the same level as a gun takes a pretty large investment of qualities and powers.

[Sichr]

lol. I`m jus saying that it is a bow. Obsolescent for maybe 500 years. Or more. Also shurikens and throwing knives aren`t as effective as grenades. Same problem.

[RHat]

Another thing to note is that Bows lose out on BF/FA modes, suppressive fire, and quite a bit of range over weapons that would typically do comparable damage.

Yeah, but don't go pretending that they don't have their own very substantial advantage.

[Mithlas]

it is a bow. Obsolescent for maybe 500 years

Used for different applications of that same age-old problem: how does one man kill another. Bows may have been surpassed, but they still have their niche. I think part of the issue with some of this question of bows is attempting to compare certain stats between a bow and a gun when that isn't the reason the bow is still around. It's like comparing oranges and grapefruit - sure, they're both citrus, but they're different fruit.

Sure, bows and assault rifles are both weapons, but they're different ranged weapons.

[Critias]

That isn't really what I'm saying here. With a bow, you get your base damage+ hits, which is pretty respectable damage. With a gun, you get more range, BF, FA, suppressive fire, and more types of ammo. Plus being able to use a bow on something really even approaching the same level as a gun takes a pretty large investment of qualities and powers.

If you thinks bows are so terrible, buy a gun.  If you think bows are still worth taking for style and cool points, then stick with bows.  Purposefully going with a bow and then complaining that they can't do everything an assault rifle can do is like becoming a master fencer in real life and then bitching because you can't stab someone at sniper rifle ranges.  If what you want is all that other stuff, then take the weapon that gives you all that other stuff.

[All4BigGuns]

Sichr: It's not just about Rating 6 at chargen without Restricted Gear, the point is Rating 8 max (SR4a, stealth-errata) vs Rating 12 max (SR4a older edition which I have myself, and SR4 iirc).

Restricted Gear only affects the Availability maximum. The limitation of Rating 6 at character generation still holds.

And I say, Chargen Caps at 6 stands no matter how people whine to get it removed because it didnt fit their idea that Bows should be from the very beginning more powerfull than 0,44 magnum handgun.

Considering that the Rating 6 limit in character generation can not be avoided even with Restricted Gear, there honestly is no reason to put such a hard limit on bows. With there being exceptionally strong Trolls out there, it would stand to reason that there would be bows out there that can make use of their full--massive--strength.

[ZeConster]

Sichr: It's not just about Rating 6 at chargen without Restricted Gear, the point is Rating 8 max (SR4a, stealth-errata) vs Rating 12 max (SR4a older edition which I have myself, and SR4 iirc).

Restricted Gear only affects the Availability maximum. The limitation of Rating 6 at character generation still holds.

And I say, Chargen Caps at 6 stands no matter how people whine to get it removed because it didnt fit their idea that Bows should be from the very beginning more powerfull than 0,44 magnum handgun.

Considering that the Rating 6 limit in character generation can not be avoided even with Restricted Gear, there honestly is no reason to put such a hard limit on bows. With there being exceptionally strong Trolls out there, it would stand to reason that there would be bows out there that can make use of their full--massive--strength.

Even if you could avoid the Rating limit, an R12 bow would have an Availability of 24, which Restricted Gear wouldn't help with, so this isn't about chargen at all. This is solely about the strongest bow doing 11P-12P damage depending on net hits, or 15P-18P depending on net hits.

• 11P-12P is already comparable to sport rifles if you're using regular ammo. The strongest sport rifle, with 2 net hits, is 11P/-1 vs. the bow's 12P/-0, 12P/-1 vs. 12P/-0 with 3, assuming regular ammo.
  Range-wise, assuming Strength 8, Medium+ Ranges are 80-240-480, somewhere inbetween SMGs and Assault Rifles - which is inferior to the sport rifle's.
  Of course, if the Rating x1.5 cap on bow damage doesn't apply, you're simply dealing with a 10P/-0 base vs. the PJSS's 9P/-5 base with APDS rounds.
• 15P-18P is comparable to rockets. Getting hit in the chest with an arrow would do about as much damage as getting hit in the chest with a High Explosive rocket, and arrows are easier to aim than rockets. In addition, Medium+ Ranges are 120-360-720, which is similar to the assault rifle's 150-350-550 but with an Extreme Range that's comparable to the sporting rifle's 750.
  Remove the damage cap, and the bow's damage is 14P/-0 base vs. the high explosive rocket's 14P/-2 base - and that's only if the rocket hits you (or explodes within 1 meter, anyway). Granted, the rocket goes against Impact, which will probably be 1 or 2 points lower, but still, at 1 meter away the rocket drops to 12P/-2.
  Perhaps I need to emphasize this. An arrow to the chest, assuming no Called Shot has been made, would do damage similar to a 750¥ rocket that explodes next to you.
  
  In other words, you'd get a silent weapon (not sure if there are rules on Perception checks for hearing or seeing the arrow in-flight and deducing the shooter's position based on that) that deals damage comparable to rockets with roughly assault rifle ranges (an an extreme range comparable to that of a sporting rifle), and that's with non-restricted gear and without modifications or accessories. I'm guessing that is why they stealth-nerfed it.

Semi-related: am I reading the Restricted Gear rules correctly that instead of using it at chargen, you can save it for a post-chargen instant purchase, bypassing the R6 limit and allowing you to buy an R8 bow in the first session if you can scrounge together the nuyen?

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Yes.  Also, bow availability doesn't multiply with the rating increase.  It's just a flat 2.

[ZeConster]

Yes.  Also, bow availability doesn't multiply with the rating increase.  It's just a flat 2.

Wait, really? Because HeroLab uses Rating * 2 for bow Availability, while it uses Availability -, 5¥ for regular arrows.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Sorry, I'm totally wrong.  I think I read that in this thread, and Chummer does it wrong.  SR4A says on page 315 that the availability is Rating x 2.  Stupidly, the collapsible bow doesn't have a multiplying availability.  It's 4R flat.  Page 18 of Arsenal.

I'd be much obliged if someone checked their Arsenal pdf on page 18 shows the table correctly.  Mine sure doesn't.  The availabilities are under the AP column header, and the costs are under the availability column header.  There's nothing under cost.

[Mantis]

My copy of Arsenal does not list an availability multiplier for the collapsible bow. It also incorrectly lists the bow with only a 2 availability. Catalyst could help avoid these sort of confusions by trying to keep their editing on track. It isn't really that big a deal to check two books and make sure your numbers are consistent.

[ZeConster]

Considering they have issues with even making the books self-consistent (Fame, Gearhead), I'd say it's a bigger deal than you think.