Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: MercilessMing on <05-24-22/1035:30>
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I'm just getting around to asking about FAQ items related to the Matrix.
#1: Please explain how this, from the 6E FAQ, works. As a GM I need to know why, and it makes no sense to me:
If you use someone else’s commlink, either with or without permission, you still get your persona rather than theirs.
Why does this happen? It seems like it has enormous ramifications for identification in the sixth world. How is it I can borrow my friend's commlink, which is broadcasting their SIN, and somehow my use of it makes their persona turn into my persona?
#2: The FAQ on Matrix perception suggests the intended way to use it is to deal with icons in your line of sight, rather than a "radar" perfectly comfortable with seeing through walls.
First, while you can “see” Matrix signals through walls and at some distance, it is presumed you filter out any AROs coming from devices you’re not currently looking at. There are thousands, if not millions, of devices around when you’re in a big city!
My reading of this is that there is one and only one filter, and you're either looking at icons in your line of sight, or flood your vision with every device in the city. Or in other words, there are no useful filters, there's just a stick to thwack you into the LOS model of perception while paying lip service to previous editions' radar sense. Have I got that about right? I may sound salty, but the LOS model is far far easier for storytelling purposes.
#3: Visibility of devices in Hosts. Two items in the FAQ roll back my understanding of how devices in Hosts can be interacted with:
Hosts provide Matrix “spaces” that have no correlation with the physical world. Any personas, devices, files, IC, or other icons inside the host cannot be perceived from outside the host, unless the owners of that host explicitly want them to be seen.
For shadowrunners, the primary benefit of establishing their own direct connection to a hostile device is they can automatically target the device for Matrix Actions, regardless of whether it is . . . hidden inside a host the hacker’s persona has not entered.
This seems to contradict my previous understanding of devices in Hosts and nested Hosts. It's not enough to do a matrix perception check for hidden devices and beat the Host's Sleaze + WILL to spot cameras that are protected by that Host. The best you can do is spot the Host. The cameras are forever inaccessible without first getting inside the Host or directly connecting to the camera. Same is true for personas, so are a security team's devices immune to hacking as long as they're in a Host and the hacker isn't?
This whole Host immunity thing, combined with the idea that most everything in the world of devices is protected by some kind of network, really changes my understanding of the matrix in 6e.
The FAQ also seems to reduce the security benefits of nested Hosts. It used to be that devices needed to be put in nested Hosts to gain 'invisibility' to matrix perception from the outside, but now that level of security is afforded to any device in a Host. However, Hosts no longer have a strong incentive to have high Sleaze, because defense from perception is now automatic for everything "inside" a Host. Nested hosts may have even less incentive, since things inside them are protected even from users inside their mother host, and their sleaze doesn't seem to matter when it comes to hiding their own existence since Perception against the mother host reveals the entire network.
I guess my question on that last one is "Have I got this right?"
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In the FAQ page, the quick-link for the following entries are broken:
"Can I spend Edge once per test or once per action?"
"Can I convert 4 Minor Actions into a Major Action before my turn begins?"
"What counts as “Edge abuse” that rises to the level of being stopped by the “preventing Edge abuse” rule?"
"How do hosts, spiders, and IC use Edge?"
How is it I can borrow my friend's commlink, which is broadcasting their SIN, and somehow my use of it makes their persona turn into my persona?
While your friend is accessing the matrix they use their own matrix persona (their own global internet user) and they broadcast their own SIN. Doesn't matter which commlink they use when they access the matrix. Or if they access the matrix via a cyberdeck instead of a commlink. They still use their own matrix persona and they still broadcast the their own SIN.
It is a little bit similar to when I logon to my kids gaming computer I will log on to my own steam account and I will broadcast my own steam achievements. My steam account and my steam achievements belong to me, not to whatever device I use to access the internet with (I am aware of that the analogy have flaws, but for the purpose of the point I am trying to make I think it kinda works).
I may sound salty, but the LOS model is far far easier for storytelling purposes.
I think perhaps the intent is here that you can still see and interact with specific devices that you (or someone in your team) were already (somehow) made aware of, even if you currently happen to have a broken line of sight to them.
Otherwise you can't remote control your car if it happen to be parked around the corner. And you can't spoof a command to a vending machine in the lobby unless you take the elevator down to the lobby. And you would be prevented from sending a message to the rigger that is lurking in the van.
This seems to contradict my previous understanding of devices in Hosts and nested Hosts. It's not enough to do a matrix perception check for hidden devices and beat the Host's Sleaze + WILL to spot cameras that are protected by that Host. The best you can do is spot the Host. The cameras are forever inaccessible without first getting inside the Host or directly connecting to the camera.
In SR5 all devices existed out on a Grid. Never inside a Host. Devices out on a Grid that was slaved to a Host was still located out on the Grids, just that if you happen to be inside the host it was slaved to you would be considered directly connected to the device out on the Grid. Kinda like having a direct window to the device out on the Grid. No matter where in the world it is physically located. This was an exception to the rule that you were normally not allowed to interact with icons outside the Host if you were inside a Host.
In SR6 it seems that devices instead are either facing the matrix (such as all stand-alone devices that are not part of a network, all devices that are part of a PAN and all devices in a Host that have deliberately been put on the matrix facing side of the host horizon) or hidden inside a host (all devices in a host that have deliberately been put on the inside side of the host horizon). If they are matrix facing then you can data spike them or spoof commands to them directly. If they are hidden inside the host then you first need to establish a direct connection to them before you data spike them or spoof commands to them. Once you already spend enough time and effort to gain user or admin access on the network the device belong to then it doesn't really matter if it was matrix facing or not. Since you have enough access you can just remote control the device directly no matter.
Same is true for personas, so are a security team's devices immune to hacking as long as they're in a Host and the hacker isn't?
This was also an issue in previous edition if a person was accessing the matrix via a commlink or cyberdeck (and thus the device icon was subsumed into a persona icon) and then the persona entered a host.
I always thought it would have made more sense that if when the persona entered a Host then their device's device icon would again temporarily appear out on the Grid (and become able to be targeted) until the persona exited the Host.
Not sure how this is intended to be resolved in SR6, but I rule this as each member of a security team get a PAN of their own (or that their PANs are combined with / slaved to the security team's technology specialist's PAN).
It used to be that devices needed to be put in nested Hosts to gain 'invisibility' to matrix perception from the outside, but now that level of security is afforded to any device in a Host.
Not sure I follow here. No matter if a hacker breach the outer onion layer of a host network or not they will still not be able to interact with devices hidden deeper into the host network hierarchy. Are you saying that the FAQ changed this somehow...?
Perception against the mother host reveals the entire network.
Perhaps the intention here is that while you can typically see the entire host network architecture from the outside without performing some sort of dungeon crawl to discover each node one by one you might still fail to see specific nodes that are running silent (depending on how good you are at matrix perception and what the sleaze rating of that specific network was set to).
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In the FAQ page, the quick-link for the following entries are broken:
"Can I spend Edge once per test or once per action?"
"Can I convert 4 Minor Actions into a Major Action before my turn begins?"
"What counts as “Edge abuse” that rises to the level of being stopped by the “preventing Edge abuse” rule?"
"How do hosts, spiders, and IC use Edge?"
Yep. Noted, and thank you!
How is it I can borrow my friend's commlink, which is broadcasting their SIN, and somehow my use of it makes their persona turn into my persona?
While your friend is accessing the matrix they use their own matrix persona (their own global internet user) and they broadcast their own SIN. Doesn't matter which commlink they use when they access the matrix. Or if they access the matrix via a cyberdeck instead of a commlink. They still use their own matrix persona and they still broadcast the their own SIN.
It is a little bit similar to when I logon to my kids gaming computer I will log on to my own steam account and I will broadcast my own steam achievements. My steam account and my steam achievements belong to me, not to whatever device I use to access the internet with (I am aware of that the analogy have flaws, but for the purpose of the point I am trying to make I think it kinda works).
That is indeed the ballpark I also envision. Your persona is your online identity. It's a gestalt of all your email addresses, all your telephone numbers, all your forum logins, all your game logins, your browsing history, your matrix user setting preferences, and all kinds of other things. Most important to the reason why noone can use anyone else's persona is it is also keyed to your unique biometrics (your brainwaves, in this case). That's all technobabble, however. What's important is the meta, game balance concern: you can't change your identity. Not to dodge your overwatch score, not to escape having access hacked into your PAN, not to avoid being recognized for what you did prior. Not for any reason whatsoever. You're always you in the matrix, no matter what your icon might happen to look like. Ergo, you cannot assume someone else's identity, either. You're always you.
Also bear in mind that your SIN (fake or otherwise) and your persona are two completely different things that in a rules point of view have no overlap. Also note that SINs aren't paired to a commlink. Nor are they a signal that's broadcast for anyone to just read at will (think of the potential identity theft...).
Those two things in combination also mean that you can't just steal some schmuck's commlink and drain their bank accounts.
I may sound salty, but the LOS model is far far easier for storytelling purposes.
I think perhaps the intent is here that you can still see and interact with specific devices that you (or someone in your team) were already (somehow) made aware of, even if you currently happen to have a broken line of sight to them.
Otherwise you can't remote control your car if it happen to be parked around the corner. And you can't spoof a command to a vending machine in the lobby unless you take the elevator down to the lobby. And you would be prevented from sending a message to the rigger that is lurking in the van.
Exactly. The intent is "basically" LOS, but something just being around the corner or on the other side of a wall doesn't prohibit hacking it.
Also bear in mind that the Matrix is indeed global, so if you know what you're looking for you can still "spot" that device anywhere in the word, but remember to factor in distance based Noise. So if you can potentially see a device anywhere in the world, what stops you from seeing EVERYTHING anywhere in the world? A really good in-universe rationale would be the existence of a preference filter to suppress the AROS for anything you don't currently care about. If you DO start caring about a given device or devices, you update your filter during the course of trying to pinpoint their matrix signals among all the other matrix signals clogging the Sixth World airwaves. That'd be considered as part of the Matrix Perception in terms of action economy.
This seems to contradict my previous understanding of devices in Hosts and nested Hosts. It's not enough to do a matrix perception check for hidden devices and beat the Host's Sleaze + WILL to spot cameras that are protected by that Host. The best you can do is spot the Host. The cameras are forever inaccessible without first getting inside the Host or directly connecting to the camera.
If that's the way the owner of the host wants it, then yes. Note that many devices, particularly those that are intended to be operated by the public, will not be hidden inside the host. But yes, devices that the host's operator thinks outsiders have absolutely no plausible business interacting with (security cameras, gun turrets, motion detectors, etc) will often be inside the host and therefore untouchable by hackers until they gain access to that host, or achieve a direct connection.
Same is true for personas, so are a security team's devices immune to hacking as long as they're in a Host and the hacker isn't?
This was also an issue in previous edition if a person was accessing the matrix via a commlink or cyberdeck (and thus the device icon was subsumed into a persona icon) and then the persona entered a host.
I always thought it would have made more sense that if when the persona entered a Host then their device's device icon would again temporarily appear out on the Grid (and become able to be targeted) until the persona exited the Host.
Not sure how this is intended to be resolved in SR6, but I rule this as each member of a security team get a PAN of their own (or that their PANs are combined with / slaved to the security team's technology specialist's PAN).
It's potentially true that a security guard could "hide" inside a host, and it's almost assuredly the more mechanically advantageous route than operating their PAN off a commlink. However there are several reasons why they might not do so:
1) maybe they're not allowed to. The more people who have access to a secure host is the more potential ways the host can be exploited. The guard's logged into the security host? Great. Guess what. You just gave shadowrunners a head they can press their guns to and force the guard to do stuff in that security host with LEGIT user access, no hacking needed!
2) if you're inside the host, you can't see outside the host. Guards might notice shadowrunners via matrix perception rolls rather than physical perception rolls, but only if they're not inside the host.
3) you can have the guard(s) be protected by the host without their PANs disappearing inside it, just as you can with maglocks or anything else for that matter.
Perception against the mother host reveals the entire network.
Perhaps the intention here is that while you can typically see the entire host network architecture from the outside without performing some sort of dungeon crawl to discover each node one by one you might still fail to see specific nodes that are running silent (depending on how good you are at matrix perception and what the sleaze rating of that specific network was set to).
Exactly. You can get a "map" of the entire architecture before you go in, so you don't have to waste time and OS during your hack exploring your way through.
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It is boggling my mind right now that the perfect ID exists and yet isn't being exploited by the authoritarian corporate dystopia. The Matrix knows who you are, just by picking up a commlink it connects you to the "real" you regardless of circumstance or fake SIN or disguise or voice modulation or retinal duplication. I get the meta reasons, but the explanation is hot garbage that amounts to "it just works". Hopefully in SR7, matrix can be revamped again in a way that doesn't rely on handwavium
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Honestly it's more of a "you can't impersonate anyone because that would result in "there's so many ways to bypass the entire hacking system that it can't be allowed" situation.
If you (or your GM) really want to make it so that you can log into your friend's persona, or steal a stranger's commlink and authorize a couple million nuyen's worth of money to your own anonymous bank account and/or expensive purchases on their dime to be delivered to your safehouse... it's your game and you can do what you want!
Need an explanation for why you can hack yourself user access but you can't just steal a legit employee's commlink and impersonate them with their credentials? Come up with whatever makes sense rather than the technobabble I suggested. Hell, ever since 5e the matrix has actually been more or less powered by magic. The corps may not simply understand, or be ABLE to translate the same identification technique that pairs minds to personas to security protocols for their hosts.
You might even allow such a stratagem as stealing a legit user's credentials to give bonus Edge on your hacking. But, potentially bypassing the entire hacking rules mechanic? Obviously that's very House Rules-y, and outside what the FAQ is designed to cover.
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For once, I'm kinda with Ming on this one. How exactly is the commlink identifying you? Do they all have a DNA/Retina/Face scan that logs into your persona? I mean, if I pick up my friend's cell phone, the only thing preventing me from using it is their passkey on the phone. I get the rules reasons, since every hack then turns into a wageslave mugging, but Ming's right, if everytime you access from anywhere, it's your persona, GOD should be watching all the doors for you to log in.
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For once, I'm kinda with Ming on this one.
For once? I guess you keep your disagreements to yourself a lot then ;)
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How exactly is the commlink identifying you?
Purely by the force of necessary game meta-mechanics. Which is a crappy answer, but it is *why*.
How? However the GM/Table would like to hand-waive, essentially.
As SSDR says above, if your table is good with identity theft by palming a commlink, than go for it. Please do what makes sense and is fun at your table.
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So, a few things.
For once, I'm kinda with Ming on this one. How exactly is the commlink identifying you? Do they all have a DNA/Retina/Face scan that logs into your persona?
It's not the commlink that's identifying you. The commlink doesn't care who you are. Nor can it tell the difference between legit and hacked access. This is also true for hosts-they don't recognize the difference between access that came legitimately and access that was hacked. It's the Matrix that recognizes you and pairs you with "You", aka your Persona.
There are no rules whatsoever for hacking access to a persona. A persona isn't tied to a device or a host. If you lose your commlink and borrow your chummer's, you still get your persona when you log in to the matrix. If you hand back your chummer's commlink and buy a disposable meta-link from a vending machine, as soon as you connect to the matrix you get your persona again. You cannot "delete" your persona and start a new one. Or, perhaps, a better way to look at it is you actually CAN, but your new persona is functionally identical to every other persona you've ever used, so the distinction is meaningless.
...if everytime you access from anywhere, it's your persona, GOD should be watching all the doors for you to log in.
They are.
A host is ultimately no better than a commlink when it comes to telling a successful hacker from a legitimate user, but GOD can always tell the difference. The Overwatch Score mechanic is universal and absolute. There may be some Resonance-based mitigation tricks, but OS is all knowing and never wrong. GOD always can see signs of when you're doing BS on the matrix. It just takes them until convergence to put the picture together.
If GOD sees everything, why don't they shut down hosts that cater to illegal activities? Because they simply don't care about THAT kind of illegality. Bunraku parlor hosts and spiders can engage in sexual trafficking but so long as they don't hack anyone, they're as clean as the driven snow in GOD's eyes. And GOD is absolutely going to come down just as hard on hooders hacking the bunraku parlor host as they do vandals bringing down the local stuffer shack.
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Honestly it's more of a "you can't impersonate anyone because that would result in "there's so many ways to bypass the entire hacking system that it can't be allowed" situation.
What exactly are those ways to bypass the entire hacking system?
Two come to my mind:
- split overwatch score over multiple commlinks
- circumvent the drone limit for riggers
Anything else?
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Honestly it's more of a "you can't impersonate anyone because that would result in "there's so many ways to bypass the entire hacking system that it can't be allowed" situation.
What exactly are those ways to bypass the entire hacking system?
Two come to my mind:
- split overwatch score over multiple commlinks
- circumvent the drone limit for riggers
Anything else?
Dumping OS without rebooting.
Dumping someone's hacked access into your PAN without rebooting.
Impersonating someone specific WITHOUT hacking the records/observer to make it appear they did whatever you're framing them for.
Stealing funds/resources without hacking the relevant hosts.
it's not hacking per se, but you can't just wipe out a bad matrix-based reputation by "starting over" as a new matrix user. You did what you did, and anyone who knows always knows.
And so on.
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Actually, FJ: Can we put everything from here (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=33525.msg553171#msg553171) onwards into a new thread? It's not about the FAQ anymore.
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Actually, FJ: Can we put everything from here (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=33525.msg553171#msg553171) onwards into a new thread? It's not about the FAQ anymore.
Done.
The reason I get with Ming on this is because I wonder HOW does the matrix identify you? Like Ming stated, no matter what disguises, voice modulators, false fingerprints, etc., the commlink will "know" as soon as it's picked up who you are and connect you with your online presence? And, if so, why don't all items hooked into the Matrix (electronic door locks, intercoms, etc.) also recognizing your persona? Like I said, I get the rules reasons, but it just seems wild to me.
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It's the Matrix that recognizes you and pairs you with "You", aka your Persona.
Indeed, it would appear the authentication takes place between the user and the matrix (like accessing a roaming user profile nowadays). But for the purpose of authentication its "user" as in person, not persona. There is a fine distinction between a person and a digital identity, i.e., a persona. The link between the two can only be established after authentication commenced successfully.
However, the question remains if that authentication mechanism cannot be fooled. If that is so, the existence of an undeniable, unforgeable unique digital identity for every user immediately follows. And I would assume, it would render fake identities infeasible, if the powers that be and who constructed the matrix had access to this mechanism.
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Actually, FJ: Can we put everything from here (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=33525.msg553171#msg553171) onwards into a new thread? It's not about the FAQ anymore.
Done.
Many thanks!
The reason I get with Ming on this is because I wonder HOW does the matrix identify you? Like Ming stated, no matter what disguises, voice modulators, false fingerprints, etc., the commlink will "know" as soon as it's picked up who you are and connect you with your online presence? And, if so, why don't all items hooked into the Matrix (electronic door locks, intercoms, etc.) also recognizing your persona? Like I said, I get the rules reasons, but it just seems wild to me.
The lore given in 5e is that brainwaves is one, but not necessarily the only, metric by which the matrix pairs you with your persona. It literally, and IMO plausibly, could have a metaphysical/Resonance-linked component to this perfect and un-impersonatable identification feature. (edit: note that conjecture is completely personal and not official)
Again, the mechanics of Overwatch Score support this. Why do hacking activities generate OS even when successful? Because something somehow knows what you're doing isn't legit, even when you're otherwise successful at making it appear to be legit.
... if the powers that be and who constructed the matrix had access to this mechanism.
That's the rub. The Matrix is not completely understood, in-universe. It's a genie that the corps don't fully control.
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The lore given in 5e is that brainwaves is one, but not necessarily the only, metric by which the matrix pairs you with your persona. It literally, and plausibly, could have a metaphysical/Resonance-linked component to this perfect and un-impersonatable identification feature.
But what about turtle users? How would they authenticate or are they entirely a thing of the past?
... if the powers that be and who constructed the matrix had access to this mechanism.
That's the rub. The Matrix is not completely understood, in-universe. It's a genie that the corps don't fully control.
Then we better keep it that way. ;)
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The lore given in 5e is that brainwaves is one, but not necessarily the only, metric by which the matrix pairs you with your persona. It literally, and plausibly, could have a metaphysical/Resonance-linked component to this perfect and un-impersonatable identification feature.
But what about turtle users? How would they authenticate or are they entirely a thing of the past?
You can use a commlink without ever going into any matrix user mode (neither AR nor VR). People with AR vertigo quality, for example, would be the primary example of such "lol look who's physically holding their commlink touching the screen to make a commcall" luddites. Note that if you're not even IN AR, then you have no persona, and the question of authenticating your not-used persona is moot ;)
... if the powers that be and who constructed the matrix had access to this mechanism.
That's the rub. The Matrix is not completely understood, in-universe. It's a genie that the corps don't fully control.
Then we better keep it that way. ;)
Indeed. But whatever IT is, is it even worse than the corps? Let your paranoia flag fly.
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Book doesn't really go into details about how authentication and authorization works in Shadowrun (which is probably a good thing, look how much this changed recent years with identity providers and web tokens - technology that we didn't even heard of at all just 15 years ago).
But at least 5th edition was explicit that if you wanted to access the matrix via another device then you first had to reboot both the device you were currently using and the device you wanted to switch to. It was also explicitly explained that matrix ownership of a device was not automatically transferred just because you had physical possession of a device (in fact, to actually steal a device was quite risky, complicated and time-consuming).
That also implied that if you physically stole my my commlink then I would still be its rightful matrix owner, not you. Unless rebooted I would also still use it to access the matrix - I would still be logged into the matrix via the commlink, not you. Since I am still considered connected to the matrix it also seem as if I can still take matrix actions with my persona that is originating on my commlink (even if it physically happen to be in your hand rather than in my back pocket). At least as long as I have some kind of method of interacting with my commlink via wifi (either indirectly by looking at an image link in contacts, glasses or cybereyes and by wearing a VR glove or, more likely, directly by wearing trodes or having an implanted datajack, cyberjack, control rig.... new trodes only cost 70 nuyen).
If I were to look for my commlink (which is the matrix perception matrix action) I would immediately spot its device icon in the matrix (as long as its wireless is still enabled and it is not placed inside a Faraday's cage etc). If I wanted I could even trace its physical location (which is the trace icon matrix action) which would let me track it's exact physical geo-location, in real time. I could also share this location via an ARO (via the Send Message matrix action) to my team mates or the local authorities. If you were to take a matrix action on your own you would still use your own matrix persona that is still running on your own commlink that you used when accessing the matrix, not via mine.
It is not clear if you can actually access the matrix via a commlink that you are not considered to be the legit matrix owner of or not. But if we assume you can (or if we assume that I first spend one minute to legally hand over matrix ownership of the commlink to you or if you first illegally spend hours to successfully convert matrix ownership of my commlink to you) then you would still have to reboot both my commlink (in which case I would get disconnected from the matrix) as well as your own commlink (in which case you would also be disconnected from your commlink). Once both devices are rebooted you could choose to access the matrix via "my" commlink. But when you do you would access the matrix with your matrix persona, not mine. You would not become the matrix owner of my devices. You would still not gain access to my PAN.
This is also true for hosts-they don't recognize the difference between access that came legitimately and access that was hacked.
I agree that this was the case in SR5 (while the act of using brute force or hack on the fly to place your mark on a host was an illegal action, simply being inside the host while having a mark on it was not). In SR5 you were often expected to not run silent and instead just change your icon and go with the flow. In plain sight (running silent also used to give you a negative dice pool modifier of 2 dice).
In SR6 I am pretty sure this mindset changed. A hacker with hacked access from Brute Force + Enter Host or Probe + Backdoor Entry is in this edition always considered an illegal user or admin if spotted (they are never considered to be legit users or legit admins - which is also the reasoning why even legit actions are opposed by the network while you are using hacked credentials). In SR6 hackers are also always considered to run silent whenever hacking a host (and they no longer get a negative dice pool modifier for running silent).
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That also implied that if you physically stole my my commlink then I would still be its rightful matrix owner, not you.
Yeah. Ownership is another matrix topic I try my best to avoid whenever possible. The canon is so convoluted. Makes me just want to run away form matrix altogether. What is the "I" in "I own this device"? Is this a SIN, or are we getting into handwavy brainwave pattern territory again?
Surely, an "ownership" concept should be like filling out a Product Registry form that links to a legal construct like a SIN or Company, nothing more metaphysical, right? Isn't it better to root day-to-day concepts in modern analogs so new people who pick up this game can intuit how technology works, and leave the truly weird scifi for specialists like decker and TM mechanics?
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Note that if you're not even IN AR, then you have no persona, and the question of authenticating your not-used persona is moot
Is this in a book somewhere?
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Note that if you're not even IN AR, then you have no persona, and the question of authenticating your not-used persona is moot
Is this in a book somewhere?
Not explicitly... but what is explicit is that you only have a persona when accessing the matrix through a device with the proper matrix attributes. So by extension then it can be concluded that if your not fully accessing the matrix (through a minimum of AR) then there is no persona generated.
FWIW .. in my opinion what makes a persona unique and not device dependent is the biometrics (ie brainwaves, ID scans, etc) while the device creates the form of persona the device does not create the signature of the persona. Which is why the concepts works the way it does in my mind. Also the fact that this is all irrelevant to the game itself is why I never covered and actually argued against including such language in any official way.
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That also implied that if you physically stole my my commlink then I would still be its rightful matrix owner, not you.
Yeah. Ownership is another matrix topic I try my best to avoid whenever possible. The canon is so convoluted. Makes me just want to run away form matrix altogether. What is the "I" in "I own this device"? Is this a SIN, or are we getting into handwavy brainwave pattern territory again?
Surely, an "ownership" concept should be like filling out a Product Registry form that links to a legal construct like a SIN or Company, nothing more metaphysical, right? Isn't it better to root day-to-day concepts in modern analogs so new people who pick up this game can intuit how technology works, and leave the truly weird scifi for specialists like decker and TM mechanics?
This has been an issue for a long while now (since 4e introduced the concepts of the wireless matrix). And, its never been explained in any great detail - probably because the writers at the time couldn't see a way forward to an explanation.
Case in Point:
To be a person and to legally own something, you need a SIN. Yet, a SIN doesn't seem to play a part in ownership, or if it does, its peripherally to the SIN. But somehow, the Matrix and the "funky, jumbo juice" it runs on just "knows" who owns what even when they don't have a SIN (AKA Runners, and other shadow dwellers). Now its implied that its done through some of meta data (brain wave patterns, Thought factored authentication, Mental check list, Cloud authorization, Rainbows and Unicorn farts) Which makes basically no real sense.... "You're telling me, that when I connect to the matrix, no matter where I am, the System reads my brain, and magically links me to all my accounts round the world in almost no time and can tell the difference between me and the other 7+ BILLION people? Yet, it can't tell if I have a Real SIN or a FAKE SIN"
Yea, sure...
In a security obsessed world of the 2070s+, if such an ownership system was as fool proof as the rules make it out to be (Remember all those "transfer ownership rules?") Then why wouldn't they use this Mental ownership checker to store SINs?
To which the pedantic answer is "Well, if they did that, then Shadowrunners couldn't exist!" Which is NOT the point! Runners are such a tiny tiny minority that they don't exist statically, and the benefits of the mental authorization of SINs would outweigh the negatives. And really, your argument basically is "Because this would stop illegal activity, it can't be used for SINs". Excuse me??
Yea, this was just not a well thought out game design, which opened more cans of worms then the writers want to admit to. Hence the why this is one of the most asked questions of both 4e and 5e (go look back! LOTS of posts about this over the years.... and the same answers every time)
Now, Meta-wise, it makes sense why these limitations where placed on things, and why certain actions are described as requiring teams of specialists to do (like making fake SINs), because we don't want the players from transferring ownership of ARES MACROTECHNOLOY to Joe Decker for the shits and giggles of it. Nor do we want Joe Decker draining the bank accounts of random people on the street... Or any of the other thousand of shit disturbing actions a person can think of doing..
In short: The developers painted themselves into a corner, and "Because" is the answer to get themselves out of it..
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Note that if you're not even IN AR, then you have no persona, and the question of authenticating your not-used persona is moot
Is this in a book somewhere?
As Banshee said, not explicitly. However, per first paragraph of "The Matrix in daily life" pg. 171 SR6, the distinction between AR user mode and using a commlink "turtle style" is made. Additionally, in numerous places throughout the Matrix chapter it's said that the two ways you can use the matrix is via AR and via one of the VR modes. Logically, it stands to reason that if you're not using VR and you're not using AR, then by exclusion of any other potential matrix user modes you're not using the matrix. And if you're not using the matrix at the time, how can you have a persona at that time?
...To be a person and to legally own something, you need a SIN...
You had a lot to say based on this reasoning, but other than "a SIN doesn't seem to play a part in ownership" it's all profoundly incorrect.
Consider that the rules establish none of the following, which would have to be true if a SIN were involved in ownership:
1) SINless people can't have gear/PANs
2) You don't have to say WHICH SIN/Fake SIN you're registering ownership through (as opposed to the example that IS given for Credit Accounts, pg. 272)
3) If your Fake SIN is burned, you'd lose any "owned" gear along with any lifestyles/credit accounts linked to that fake SIN
4) not 6e specific since the CRB didn't have Criminal SINs, but prior editions did (and this discussion is apparently going all the way back to 4e) people with Criminal SINs are not blocked from owning guns and other gear they ARE disallowed from having licenses to own.
Ownership isn't linked to a SIN. And it never was, to the best of my knowledge, in 4e or 5e either. Licenses certainly are, but that's very much not the same thing as matrix ownership.
Consider a stealth tag you put on a vehicle. Clearly, subtlety is a priority since you're bothering to use a stealth tag. Yet you want to own it, matrix-wise, so that you can trace its icon automatically and not have to engage in an aggravating game of rolling against your own gear running silent (if you can trace a hostile stealth tag, you never needed it in the first place- you could have traced their car itself!). But surely you're aware that there's the risk of your opposition finding the bug, and accepted that risk or else you never would have placed it. So, what can they learn if they DO find it? Well, if you actually had it as part of your PAN then if you spot one device, you spot the network, so you probably didn't do that. So long as you DIDN'T put your digital name on the device by leaving it in your PAN, all they have is an anonymous device. They can hack it, they can "steal" it and change ownership away from you, but so long as you didn't include it in your PAN there's no link they can use to identify WHO owns it. But until such time they DO come to transfer ownership of the bug, they can't remove it from your PAN (if it was in the network to begin with) nor can they add it to theirs (if they wanted to).
Consider a gun you left behind at a crime scene. You probably DID have that as part of your PAN, so if you're aware you lost it you'll want to sever it from your persona PDQ. But when Lone Star finds the gun, so long as it's not still in your network they don't have an easy way to trace ownership, per se. Since it's a gun and almost everywhere requires licensure, they CAN just check the databases to see who holds the license for this gun. NOW SINs come in to play, through tracing licenses.
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What is the "I" in "I own this device"? Is this a SIN, or are we getting into handwavy brainwave pattern territory again?
But do we really have to know how tech 50 years from now might be working, in detail? Is that really important for driving the story forward I wonder. What is the worst thing you think will happen if we just accept that it works?
I remember that Hacking in the early 90s was vastly different than how hacking is performed today, just 30 years later in 2022. I can't even start to imagine how hacking might be performed 50 years from now.
I also remember watching the original TRON movie and reading the Sprawl Trilogy back in the early 90s. Being introduced for the first time to alien concepts like cyber cowboys that connected their brains directly some strange world named cyberspace where they would slice through black IC. There were no details on how it worked. Guy that wrote all that stuff were not even tech savvy to begin with. It was all just make belief. Still, I was hooked. For life. High Tech. Low Life. Cyberpunk at its best.
I honestly don't think it would be a good idea for authors to just copy existing proven security techniques (like PIN-code, username + password, fingerprint scanner, etc). Sure, tech nerds (like me) would recognize ourselves and we would be happy about the technical details (at least initially), but risk is it would quickly feel obsolete and out-dated long before next edition would be released and it would probably also open up a can of edge cases that also had to be described and handled (such as identify theft, key loggers, man in the middle attacks, cross site scripting, bait n switch, cookie theft, etc).
And at the end of the day (and I think this is the most important argument) all that extra detail would perhaps also not even be very fun for people that are not working within IT on a daily basis and just want to play a session of Shadowrun.
... to legally own something, you need a SIN.
It does seem as if you need to have a SIN if you wish to apply for a passport, licenses, bank account, join the military, etc., but I am pretty sure having a SIN is not a requirement for accessing the public grid, owning electronic devices or paying for stuff via certified credsticks.
In a security obsessed world of the 2070s+
Not sure the world of 2070 is as security obsessed as you might think it to be (or want it to be, being in the line of work you are in RL).
Generally speaking I think the future were typically a lot more security obsessed in earlier sci-fi. Older sci-fi often had a communistic mindset with strong governments and often featured government controlled secret police and "big brother see you" themes. The movie Gattaca is a good example of this.
With the introduction of cyberpunk the future was (at least in western cyberpunk) instead often portrayed with a hyper capitalistic mindset where corps were often more powerful than small countries, gaps between the top % and the poor masses were bigger than ever and where Big Data was typically gathered by competing commercial companies and where the data was also used mainly for commercial purposes (such as targeted ads).
To which the pedantic answer is "Well, if they did that, then Shadowrunners couldn't exist!" Which is NOT the point! Runners are such a tiny tiny minority that they don't exist statically, and the ...
Impersonation and Social Infiltration are both large parts of the TTRPG Shadowrun setting and lore. The rules as written allow for that. What you are suggesting make sense from a security engineer's point of view, but this game is not about security engineers. The game revolve around professional criminals. In order for professional criminals to operate there simply need to be huge gaps in the security architecture that.
Now, Meta-wise, it makes sense why these limitations where placed on things, and why certain actions are described as requiring teams of specialists to do (like making fake SINs), because we don't want the players from transferring ownership of ARES MACROTECHNOLOY to Joe Decker for the shits and giggles of it. Nor do we want Joe Decker draining the bank accounts of random people on the street... Or any of the other thousand of shit disturbing actions a person can think of doing..
Perhaps it is more important (valuable) for the authors to make sure the rules prevent all the things you just listed (and that they at the same time allow your players to impersonate and socially infiltrate) than to put time and effort into describing in detail just how matrix ownership is resolved under the surface or the exact technical reasoning why you cannot steal someone else's SIN or some other detailed behind the scenes description of tech that will not be invented for another 50 years.
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...just check the databases to see who holds the license for this gun.
I think perhaps that in the world of Shadowrun your license is not connected to a specific gun, but rather act as a blanket permit to possess any firearm (or perhaps a specific class of firearms).
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...just check the databases to see who holds the license for this gun.
I think perhaps that in the world of Shadowrun your license is not connected to a specific gun, but rather act as a blanket permit to possess any firearm (or perhaps a specific class of firearms).
That level of granularity is indeed not specified. But surely the gun has to be linked to a license, whether it's one license for all your guns or one license per gun. I can see it being preferable/advantageous for the character to have some guns (apparently) licensed, so that you can present them for examination at checkpoints, and some guns being unlicensed so that they're untraceable. Going "no license" would be the equivalent of filing off the serial number- it'll never pass any kind of inspection, but at least you're not linked to it, either.
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Ok, at least I know now ownership lives in the same rule space as personas. I just have to say it's a shame that in a game about doing crime, with cybernetic gear dedicated to defeating biometrics of all kinds, using social skills to get passwords and steal keys, and expensive tech made for breaking into secure computer systems and liberating their contents, stealing phones and cars is such a hassle and impersonating someone online is damn near impossible.
The next time Mr Johnson asks my team to steal a prototype, I'm just gonna tell him "Wow are you sure? You know as soon as it's connected to the matrix, the owner can find it right? And you have to leave it on all day to get rid of that". :-P
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...To be a person and to legally own something, you need a SIN...
You had a lot to say based on this reasoning, but other than "a SIN doesn't seem to play a part in ownership" it's all profoundly incorrect.
Consider that the rules establish none of the following, which would have to be true if a SIN were involved in ownership:
1) SINless people can't have gear/PANs
2) You don't have to say WHICH SIN/Fake SIN you're registering ownership through (as opposed to the example that IS given for Credit Accounts, pg. 272)
3) If your Fake SIN is burned, you'd lose any "owned" gear along with any lifestyles/credit accounts linked to that fake SIN
4) not 6e specific since the CRB didn't have Criminal SINs, but prior editions did (and this discussion is apparently going all the way back to 4e) people with Criminal SINs are not blocked from owning guns and other gear they ARE disallowed from having licenses to own.
Ownership isn't linked to a SIN. And it never was, to the best of my knowledge, in 4e or 5e either. Licenses certainly are, but that's very much not the same thing as matrix ownership.
Consider a stealth tag you put on a vehicle. Clearly, subtlety is a priority since you're bothering to use a stealth tag. Yet you want to own it, matrix-wise, so that you can trace its icon automatically and not have to engage in an aggravating game of rolling against your own gear running silent (if you can trace a hostile stealth tag, you never needed it in the first place- you could have traced their car itself!). But surely you're aware that there's the risk of your opposition finding the bug, and accepted that risk or else you never would have placed it. So, what can they learn if they DO find it? Well, if you actually had it as part of your PAN then if you spot one device, you spot the network, so you probably didn't do that. So long as you DIDN'T put your digital name on the device by leaving it in your PAN, all they have is an anonymous device. They can hack it, they can "steal" it and change ownership away from you, but so long as you didn't include it in your PAN there's no link they can use to identify WHO owns it. But until such time they DO come to transfer ownership of the bug, they can't remove it from your PAN (if it was in the network to begin with) nor can they add it to theirs (if they wanted to).
Consider a gun you left behind at a crime scene. You probably DID have that as part of your PAN, so if you're aware you lost it you'll want to sever it from your persona PDQ. But when Lone Star finds the gun, so long as it's not still in your network they don't have an easy way to trace ownership, per se. Since it's a gun and almost everywhere requires licensure, they CAN just check the databases to see who holds the license for this gun. NOW SINs come in to play, through tracing licenses.
You didn't read my post clear enough, or I wasn't clear enough....
SIN and Ownership DO NOT seem to be linked (as I said), but this is part and parcel of the problem and the disconnect that me, MM and others have... lets start again.
A SIN (System Identification Number)
SR 4a pg266
....If you lack a SIN, many activities that normal citizens take for granted
become impossible for you. For example, you need a SIN to get a legal
job, open a bank account,own property, go to school, rent an apartment,
establish utility services, and so forth.
SR 5 pg 366
A SIN is issued to a person
a birth, and stays with them (baring exceptional circumstances)
for the rest of their life. A SIN identifies a
person in the global information system and is attached
to every piece of information associated with them in
the Matrix. No aspect of modern or legal life can function
without a SIN. Those who don’t have one can’t get a
job, can’t buy food, can’t even walk down the street. To
the system, these people don’t exist.
So, before we even get to the matrix:
To buy that commlink, and the matrix access, you need a SIN. Property that you own is linked to said SIN. (like, said Commlink, matrix subscription, your house, your gun, etc)... So by what everything is telling us, a SIN is required for all of this...
And YET: Runners CAN leave Guns they purchased at crime scenes without fear of being caught. Runners CAN get a place to live, CAN get bank accounts, buy and "own" property... and every thing else.. Cause its tied to a SIN....
YET: I steal some random assholes Commlink, fly to a different country, log into the matrix.... and it's MY Personna, MY commcodes, MY accesses.... And not the commlink nor the person that owns the Commlink... This makes no logical sense to us. Nor does it make any sense to anyone else. Because clearly MY Personna, MY commcodes, and MY Accesses - which should be all assigned to my SIN, clearly are not... They are somehow attached to... 'Magical Matrix fairy dust'???
And IF there is NO way to fake, or spoof a Personna, Why are we bothering with SINs??? Clearly SINs can be faked, and cheated creating an improper and insecure system, while their is a totally unhackable, unspoofable system known as "Personna" that could track all that same info (because it's already tracking everything I do matrix wise).... From a Security stand point, Clearly SINs are a security risk, while Personnas are "air-tight".
AND THAT is the heart of the problem many of us have with Personnas and the matrix.
Now yes... I understand the basic meta of why Personnas track with you, and the why we can fake SINs and not personnas... but it is just the logical gap in the world that makes no sense, especially since the game goes out of its way to say "Yea... just "buy a fake SIN to get around all this legal crap" but doesn't provide a to FAKE a Personna... Which opens up lots of other questions like:
Why aren't runners getting nuked By G.O.D all the time? If you can't change a Personna, then once your overwatch score gets high enough, then clearly G.O.D knows your Personna, why don't they just keep an eye open for your next log in and continue the attack? If the Matrix can track my Personna over multiple devices (That I may not even own!) Surely they track and lock onto my Personna the next time I log in.... Right???? (And don't say "no" because if MY Personna can form without any of my "owned" equipment, files, or programs, Then YES, G.O.D could/should be able to track me once I relog in! One is more of a stretch then the other: If we ignore the Meta for a moment)
And I say "this was an issue introduced with the wireless matrix and 4e" Because it was!
A perfectly viable strategy for Runners in 1-3e was social engineering your way into a situation that would allow you to steal a person's Commlink and their access codes on it for your run. And if you were smart, and the situation allowed, you would steal the commlink, have your Decker copy all the info on it, then return said commlink to its original owner while your team when about on its run! Or you could steal someone's pass card for the same effect. BUT the ONE thing you COULD NOT DO in 1-3e was crack a SIN...
In 4 to 6e (but I am just gonna talk about 4 and 5..) taking a commlink is a moot point, as it doesn't hold any passcodes or access codes, those are held by the Personna. Which can't be cracked, hacked, spoofed or cheated. Yes, you can still steal a pass card, and yes you still CAN NOT hack a SIN.
If anything, PERSONNAs should be something that Deckers/Technomancers would want to crack and spoof as they are the "keys" to the matrix playground, and a way to protect yourself from being identified... but as it stands right now, PERSONNAs are a 100% accurate way of identifying someone, and thus linking them to ALL their criminal activity!
Basically it boils down to a fallacy in the world systems to preserve the Gaming Meta for consistent play based around a flawed perspective that was lead to inconsistencies in world tone, flavor and logic.
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You didn't read my post clear enough, or I wasn't clear enough....
To be fair, I think we might be talking past one another a bit, actually...
... lets start again.
A SIN (System Identification Number)
SR 4a pg266
....If you lack a SIN, many activities that normal citizens take for granted
become impossible for you. For example, you need a SIN to get a legal
job, open a bank account,own property, go to school, rent an apartment,
establish utility services, and so forth.
SR 5 pg 366
A SIN is issued to a person
a birth, and stays with them (baring exceptional circumstances)
for the rest of their life. A SIN identifies a
person in the global information system and is attached
to every piece of information associated with them in
the Matrix. No aspect of modern or legal life can function
without a SIN. Those who don’t have one can’t get a
job, can’t buy food, can’t even walk down the street. To
the system, these people don’t exist.
So, before we even get to the matrix:
To buy that commlink, and the matrix access, you need a SIN. Property that you own is linked to said SIN. (like, said Commlink, matrix subscription, your house, your gun, etc)... So by what everything is telling us, a SIN is required for all of this...
And YET: Runners CAN leave Guns they purchased at crime scenes without fear of being caught. Runners CAN get a place to live, CAN get bank accounts, buy and "own" property... and every thing else.. Cause its tied to a SIN....
Ok I've already read through your entire post, twice, in order to give you the full respect you're due before jumping in and interrupting your flow.
This is clearly a point of contention as we're already not on the same page when it comes to what "property" means. I see now you're reading it as being a synonym for "possession". And, of course, it CAN mean that. OTOH, I've always read that context to mean something more along this definition:
Property is any item that a person or a business has legal title over. Property can be tangible items, such as houses, cars, or appliances, or it can refer to intangible items that carry the promise of future worth, such as stock and bond certificates.
Now, if we're not going to agree that SINless can indeed buy "possessions" that are not "property", as defined along the lines of just above, then we are indeed starting from points of little mutual agreement. You obviously haven't been presuming that a commlink can be a possession but not be property, whereas I have been. I can't speak for a 4e writer's intent, but I'm confident predicting that was the RAI but again I cannot say with authority there. So, we may end up agreeing to disagree, and if so from this point on our points of view will likely not reconcile any closer.
But let it be said that from here out, I'm operating under the definition that "property" is something that involves recognizing a title, or, more relevantly to the SR rules... licensure. SINless absolutely can buy drek from a vending machine and/or black markets. Furthermore, commlinks can absolutely go untied to any SINs, even for the SINners. It'd be analogous to a prepaid/no-contract cell phone in real life, and would almost assuredly be how any criminal would maintain their commlink service.
YET: I steal some random assholes Commlink, fly to a different country, log into the matrix.... and it's MY Personna, MY commcodes, MY accesses.... And not the commlink nor the person that owns the Commlink... This makes no logical sense to us. Nor does it make any sense to anyone else. Because clearly MY Personna, MY commcodes, and MY Accesses - which should be all assigned to my SIN, clearly are not... They are somehow attached to... 'Magical Matrix fairy dust'???
Well, yes. But not because of magical matrix fairy dust. It's because a persona isn't ON your commlink. Your persona is entirely on the matrix... the commlink is just the vehicle you use to access the matrix and your persona.
And none of this is tied to a SIN because frankly you don't get subjected to a SIN verification test every time you use the matrix.
By the way, I don't know if you realize it or not but "magical matrix fairy dust" actually isn't actually that far off from being how it truly does work, in-universe. The corps actually don't understand how the matrix works... completely. More on that downpost...
And IF there is NO way to fake, or spoof a Personna, Why are we bothering with SINs??? Clearly SINs can be faked, and cheated creating an improper and insecure system, while their is a totally unhackable, unspoofable system known as "Personna" that could track all that same info (because it's already tracking everything I do matrix wise).... From a Security stand point, Clearly SINs are a security risk, while Personnas are "air-tight".
AND THAT is the heart of the problem many of us have with Personnas and the matrix.
Big Brother can't ID you by your persona for the same reasons you can't impersonate someone else's: neither you nor anyone else has access to the metadata/technobabble behind anyone else's persona. The Matrix is concerned with who matches with a persona. Big Brother is concerned with who matches with a SIN. Those are circles that simply don't overlap on a venn diagram. Big Brother doesn't use "whatever technobabble the matrix uses with personas" in SIN verification tech because they don't understand how the Matrix works.
Now yes... I understand the basic meta of why Personnas track with you, and the why we can fake SINs and not personnas... but it is just the logical gap in the world that makes no sense, especially since the game goes out of its way to say "Yea... just "buy a fake SIN to get around all this legal crap" but doesn't provide a to FAKE a Personna... Which opens up lots of other questions like:
Why aren't runners getting nuked By G.O.D all the time? If you can't change a Personna, then once your overwatch score gets high enough, then clearly G.O.D knows your Personna, why don't they just keep an eye open for your next log in and continue the attack? If the Matrix can track my Personna over multiple devices (That I may not even own!) Surely they track and lock onto my Personna the next time I log in.... Right???? (And don't say "no" because if MY Personna can form without any of my "owned" equipment, files, or programs, Then YES, G.O.D could/should be able to track me once I relog in! One is more of a stretch then the other: If we ignore the Meta for a moment)
And I say "this was an issue introduced with the wireless matrix and 4e" Because it was!
I think what I already said either addresses your concerns above, or simply will be rejected out of hand. We're either now in agreement or simply at loggerheads... either way the convo is likely run its course.
A perfectly viable strategy for Runners in 1-3e was social engineering your way into a situation that would allow you to steal a person's Commlink and their access codes on it for your run. And if you were smart, and the situation allowed, you would steal the commlink, have your Decker copy all the info on it, then return said commlink to its original owner while your team when about on its run! Or you could steal someone's pass card for the same effect. BUT the ONE thing you COULD NOT DO in 1-3e was crack a SIN...
In 4 to 6e (but I am just gonna talk about 4 and 5..) taking a commlink is a moot point, as it doesn't hold any passcodes or access codes, those are held by the Personna. Which can't be cracked, hacked, spoofed or cheated. Yes, you can still steal a pass card, and yes you still CAN NOT hack a SIN.
There's still useful data to be read/stolen from a commlink. At minimum it's going to have records of everything its owner's persona did while accessing the matrix via that device. It's probably also got photos/holopics you snapped, personal files stored on it, and so on. The only thing you can't do is log in to the matrix as the owner's persona, is all. As I said upthread you can't just steal an employee's commlink and log into their work host as them, but there's no reason that stealing some credentials stored on their commlink can't result in an Edge bonus on your attempt to hack your way in. IMO doing such research on the host you plan to infiltrate ought to be rewarded in such a way, really.
If anything, PERSONNAs should be something that Deckers/Technomancers would want to crack and spoof as they are the "keys" to the matrix playground, and a way to protect yourself from being identified... but as it stands right now, PERSONNAs are a 100% accurate way of identifying someone, and thus linking them to ALL their criminal activity!
Again, only "The Matrix" is able to use whatever it uses for that imposter-proof ID mechanic. Everyone else, megacorps included, are stuck with fallible options.
Also note that "you" are never identified via your Persona. That 100% accuracy is only ever applicable to your persona being the same persona you've ever used. If you change your matrix handle from S3XR0b0T to Clownpuncher, when a spider sees that S3XR0b0T's hack is all over the security logs (assuming you didn't sanitize those before you left) they'll know that now applies to Clownpuncher should you show up again. But they won't know your real world identity either way, even though the matrix still logs you into your Clownpuncher persona rather than the S3XR0b0T handle you used previously.
Edit: another analogous example: If I'm SSDR some of the time on the matrix, and I use other handles other times in the matrix, any OS I accumulate under EITHER handle goes to the same persona. The Matrix can't be fooled by "changing your persona".
Edit 2: If you want to impersonate X by making Z think X sent them a commcall or message, that's still possible. You can't just automatically succeed because you stole X's commlink, is all. You have to hack Z, and make them think the call/message came from X. It's actually a bit more permissive, since you don't even have to steal X's commlink in the first place.
Basically it boils down to a fallacy in the world systems to preserve the Gaming Meta for consistent play based around a flawed perspective that was lead to inconsistencies in world tone, flavor and logic.
If I haven't satisfactorily illustrated why it's not a fallacy, I think we'll have to agree to disagree from here.
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Ok I've already read through your entire post, twice, in order to give you the full respect you're due before jumping in and interrupting your flow.
This is clearly a point of contention as we're already not on the same page when it comes to what "property" means. I see now you're reading it as being a synonym for "possession". And, of course, it CAN mean that. OTOH, I've always read that context to mean something more along this definition:
Property is any item that a person or a business has legal title over. Property can be tangible items, such as houses, cars, or appliances, or it can refer to intangible items that carry the promise of future worth, such as stock and bond certificates.
Now, if we're not going to agree that SINless can indeed buy "possessions" that are not "property", as defined along the lines of just above, then we are indeed starting from points of little mutual agreement. You obviously haven't been presuming that a commlink can be a possession but not be property, whereas I have been. I can't speak for a 4e writer's intent, but I'm confident predicting that was the RAI but again I cannot say with authority there. So, we may end up agreeing to disagree, and if so from this point on our points of view will likely not reconcile any closer.
But let it be said that from here out, I'm operating under the definition that "property" is something that involves recognizing a title, or, more relevantly to the SR rules... licensure. SINless absolutely can buy drek from a vending machine and/or black markets. Furthermore, commlinks can absolutely go untied to any SINs, even for the SINners. It'd be analogous to a prepaid/no-contract cell phone in real life, and would almost assuredly be how any criminal would maintain their commlink service.
We are not at cross definations here... let me ask you this:
SINless guy walks into a store, and hands the clerk $2500 in certified Cred. The Clerk hands SINless Guy a Commlink....
How does the SINless guy take LEGAL possession of his property??
Short answer is: "He can't". YES he has the plastic goodie in his dirty SINless hand... but he doesn't actually own it. (from a LEGAL stand point). YES he paid cash money from his own savings, the clerk acknowledged and affirmed the transaction by handing the SINless Guy the Commlink... But he doesn't LEGALLY own it. (Not in the world of Shadowrun!)
The reason that he doesn't own it is.... Because he doesn't have a SIN! Full Stop. Everything you own is Registered to a SIN... Remember? I quoted it to you from 2 different sources (and while I don't have the 6e book, I doubt its changed).
As I have been saying, all your property, be that physical, digital, intangible, is tied back to a SIN. Heck, even the initials in your name, city of birth, date of Birth, GPA, credentials, schools attended are all Stored in your SIN, even your DNA... A SIN is the depository of your life.... The digital thumb print that you exist.
Without a SIN, there is very little a person can do in the SR universe that interacts with "normal" society...
Now SINless Guy can get around some of this by using a Fake SIN... and have the ownership of the Commlink transferred from the store to the fake SIN, sure. Now he technically "owns" the commlink... for as long as that fake SIN stays active. (And once it's burned, then everything registered to it is also burned.. And he "owns" nothing, even though he is in "possession" of the commlink...)
AND YES, Anything that is registered to a fake SIN that gets burned gets legally frozen (And probably flagged as "stolen"). Be that apartments, guns, clothing, cars, GRID access, Commlinks, and any other property registered to it. So get out those "dice" and start transferring ownerships :P
<Not that many tables go THAT far into the whole system and issues with SINs, but yes, RAW that is what happens. Most tables just hand wave all this away when a SIN gets burned... or should I say IF a SIN gets burned... as this seems to happen very little in actual play.... >
And then there is the Matrix... which we have talked about and probably never going to see eye to eye on...
If the Matrix and SINs are not attached: How do you buy your GRID access? (they cost money remember? Except for the Public GRID... Eww! Loser). How do you buy your Music? Or your games? Or pay for your groceries? Or for that paywall to "Hot Troll chicks with Dwarf Girls on llamas"???? (Cause you GOT to see THAT! its a classic you know!) So clearly, there is some overlap and cross connectivity between the Matrix and SINs... there has to be, or the Matrix is not a financial tool. (Because Bank accounts are stored in SINs remember?). How do you take ownership of your digital property if SINs and the Matrix Don't interact? And since they have to interact with your personna (because you're ON the Matrix!) to conduct the transaction....
See where I am going with this?
By the way, I don't know if you realize it or not but "magical matrix fairy dust" actually isn't actually that far off from being how it truly does work, in-universe. The corps actually don't understand how the matrix works... completely. More on that downpost...
***
Big Brother doesn't use "whatever technobabble the matrix uses with personas" in SIN verification tech because they don't understand how the Matrix works.
Wait... WHAT?!?!?!
"They" (being the Corps) build digital worlds in it, use it for data storage and transmission, conduct phone calls, digital meetings, build programs to run in, modify, edit, deny access to, encrypt and change it, transfer trillions of credits through it, HOURLY. Use it to send thoughts, smells, images, sounds, and tactile impulses directly to and interacting directly WITH THEIR BRAINS (and yours too if you hot-sim VR).
But "They" don't know haw it works. Entirely...
Wow.... you would think, what with everything they can do, and DO do, they would know how it works...
I mean really ::)
Now, I don't expect there to be a giant blurb in the rulebook that goes into great detail about the minute details of how it works.... but "They don't know how it works, entirely" ???
Yea... ok.
This just doesn't work for some of us.
-
SIN and Ownership DO NOT seem to be linked
Agreed.
SINless people are legit matrix owners of their own items. There does not seem to be any requirement that you need to be a legit citizen (to have a SIN) in order for me to legally transfer matrix ownership of one of my devices to you.
To buy that commlink, and the matrix access, you need a SIN.
It does not seem as if SIN and Ownership is connected.
Property that you own is linked to said SIN.
This was perhaps the case specifically in SR4. This seem to have been changed for SR5.
I think here is the big disconnect.
Runners CAN leave Guns they purchased at crime scenes without fear of being caught.
With my reading you buy guns on the black market by trading services or goods or by paying with founds from untraceable certified credsticks. There is no need for having a SIN for that.
With your reading you always need to have a working SIN to own anything. That there will always be a data trail to the SIN you used when buying a gun. With your reading your players need to always be careful about leaving anything at all at a crime scene (even a piece of clothing. like a hat)
Runners CAN get a place to live
With my reading SINless people are not forced to street lifestyle. You can even have high lifestyle (if you accept to live in a less respected area where SIN verification units are not being utilized), but if they want to live in a respected area where they use SIN verification units to validate that they are legit citizens then they would need to first get themselves a fake SIN.
With your reading a SIN is always required for any lifestyle above Squatter. That each lifestyle is connected to a specific SIN. That if your SIN is burned then so is also your entire lifestyle connected to that SIN.
CAN get bank accounts
We both seem to agree that to open a legit bank account at a respected financial institution you typically need to have a SIN (fake or otherwise).
That a if a bank account is linked to a SIN and the SIN is burned then so is your bank account.
I steal some random assholes Commlink, fly to a different country, log into the matrix....
With my (SR5) reading you will not automatically become the legit matrix owner of my commlink just because you are in physical possession of it. According to the matrix it will still belong to me. As its owner I can still legally trace it. As long as it is connected to the matrix and I have means to interface with it remotely over the matrix I (or rather my matrix persona) will even still be connected to the matrix though it. Unless I transfer ownership to you or if you illegally convert ownership of it you probably can't use it to access the matrix. Once you are its legit matrix owner you can reboot both it and your current device and then access the access via the commlink that previously belonged to me. At this point you will get your own matrix persona, not its previous owner's. You will broadcast your own SIN, the commlink will display your contact list, it will use your commcode. Not its previous owner's. I can no longer trace it (unless I manage to place 2 marks on it). If I want to access the matrix I have to do so with another device (that I am the legit matrix owner of).
This might or might not have changed for SR6.
And IF there is NO way to fake, or spoof a Personna, Why are we bothering with SINs???
Persona is your online identity that is used to execute matrix actions and to check your email etc.
SIN is used to validate that you are a legit citizen. SIN verification units are placed in the lobby to verify that only legit citizens enters the lobby. To beat a SIN verification unit in order to pretend that you are a legit citizen you simply buy a fake SIN. Social skills and disguise etc is not part of the validation test.
Other security measures are being used to validate who you are or that you belong or that you actually work at the corp (fingerprint readers, facial recognition, corp badges with photo of the employee, close proximity RFID cards, key code combinations, voice recognition, breathe scanners, etc etc). There are pages with counter measures that shadowrunners use to bypass them or if they want to impersonate someone else. Social skills and disguise etc might very well be needed if you attempt to impersonate someone else while you socially infiltrate a corp. Whichever SIN you are broadcasting is not part of this process (if you house rule that it is then it would suddenly become impossible to impersonate someone else - in that case you would probably also need to house rule that identity theft is a thing and where you can -at least temporarily- copy, steal or borrow someone else's SIN.... but this was clearly not the intent of the author).
Clearly SINs are a security risk, while Personnas are "air-tight".
Personas ARE used. A legit user can remotely instruct his own car to open the door. Since he is the owner of the car he can also directly remote control the car himself, using his own skills and attributes.
But they are NOT "air-tight". A hacker that got a mark on a legit user can use that to remotely spoof a command to a car that the user owns, impersonated as the cars legit owner, instructing the car to open the door. Without the hacker having access on the car itself. A hacker that either trick or force the car to illegally accept three of his marks can also legally remote control the car himself, using his own skills and attributes
Why aren't runners getting nuked By G.O.D all the time?
It seem as whenever you bend the rules of matrix you cause ripples that GOD sense and start to back trace back to its original source. But it also seem as if every time the hacker reboot, GOD lose track of of the hacker (but also the hacker will no longer have keep any illegally gained MARKs and OS will be reset as well).
clearly G.O.D knows your Personna, why don't they just keep an eye open for your next log in and continue the attack?
The alternative to not start with a clean slate every time you access the matrix would be that the device you use get burned in some way (similar to back in 2022 when criminals used burner phones). But since cyberdecks are quite expansive it is probably a Good Thing that the authors decided that it should not work like this in Shadowrun ;-)
A perfectly viable strategy for Runners in 1-3e was social engineering your way into a situation that would allow you to ...
I would like to see some synergy between social engineering and hacking.
Perhaps we might get something in the SR6 matrix supplement (cross fingers).
Or you could steal someone's pass card
This is still a valid tactic. You can even use a key card copier to make a duplicate and then palm back the original before its owner notices (Sneakers all over). Proximity RFID cards is one of the many security device that are used to validate that you are you and that you belong.
In 4 to 6e (but I am just gonna talk about 4 and 5..) taking a commlink is a moot point, as it doesn't hold any passcodes or access codes...
Yes, better to just (SR5) remotely sneak your mark on the commlink (or rather the matrix persona that is originating from the commlink as its owner is using it to access the matrix). Once you have that you can impersonate the owners persona by spoofing commands to devices he is the legit matrix owner of. Disguising the instructions as if they came from their legit owner. Without spending action economy to place marks on the devices themselves.
Yes, you can still steal a pass card, and yes you still CAN NOT hack a SIN.
To beat a close proximity RFID scanner you can steal a legit pass card (or make a copy of it or hack it or ...)
To beat a SIN verification unit you buy a fake SIN (you don't steal or borrow someone else's real SIN).
If anything, PERSONNAs should be something that Deckers/Technomancers would want to crack and spoof as they are the "keys" to the matrix playground ...
But they ARE doing that! In order to spoof commands to devices that someone else is the owner of you need to (SR5) first hack the owner's matrix persona. Either by using brute force. Or by using hack on the fly.
The alternative to spoofing commands as if they came from the device's legit owner would be for the hacker to hack each individual device and then remote control it directly.
-
There's still useful data to be read/stolen from a commlink.
Agreed.
But none of it require that you physically touch the commlink. As long as the commlink is turned on and connected to the matrix as a whole you typically just hack it (remotely).
You basically only need to have physical possession of it if you plan to actually illegally transfer ownership of it.
SINless guy walks into a store, and hands the clerk $2500 in certified Cred. The Clerk hands SINless Guy a Commlink....
How does the SINless guy take LEGAL possession of his property??
SR5 p. 237 Ownership
When a commlink is at the store or in a warehouse, the commlink’s owner is its manufacturer (although sometimes stores get ownership of their goods before the buyer does). When you buy that commlink, the store or manufacturer transfers ownership to you.
he has the plastic goodie in his dirty SINless hand... but he doesn't actually own it. (from a LEGAL stand point). YES he paid cash money from his own savings, the clerk acknowledged and affirmed the transaction by handing the SINless Guy the Commlink... But he doesn't LEGALLY own it. (Not in the world of Shadowrun!)
For the first 60 seconds perhaps. Correct.
But once the clerk legally transferred ownership to him he will be the commlink's legit matrix owner.
The reason that he doesn't own it is.... Because he doesn't have a SIN! Full Stop. Everything you own is Registered to a SIN... Remember?
In SR5 it doesn't seem as if your SIN is linked to items you own.
In SR5 it doesn't seem as if you need to have a SIN to buy stuff.
Perhaps you are still thinking of SR4?
I quoted it to you from 2 different sources (and while I don't have the 6e book, I doubt its changed).
You only quoted SR4.
There is nothing about property being linked to a SIN in SR5.
As I have been saying, all your property, be that physical, digital, intangible, is tied back to a SIN.
Again, SR4. This does not seem to be the case for SR5.
Heck, even the initials in your name, city of birth, date of Birth, GPA, credentials, schools attended are all Stored in your SIN, even your DNA... A SIN is the depository of your life.... The digital thumb print that you exist.
Your SIN (the actual encoded number string) seem to include five pieces of information that can be decoded right out of the encoded number string if you have the correct software.
1. checksum
2. name
3. birth date
4. place of birth
5. and nation that issued the SIN.
The SIN is also linked (used as the primary key in various databases) to many financial activities, medical records, and travel activities etc but they are not actually stored inside (as in encoded into) the system identification number itself.
Without a SIN, there is very little a person can do in the SR universe that interacts with "normal" society...
Because in "normal" society you are required to be a legit citizen (broadcast a SIN).
And because in "normal" society they use SIN verification units to validate that available online data linked to the SIN seem to be consistent with a legit SIN (that there are no apparent holes or gaps).
Now SINless Guy can get around some of this by using a Fake SIN... and have the ownership of the Commlink transferred from the store to the fake SIN
If this specific store have a policy that they don't serve SINless then SINless Guy can get around that by using a fake SIN.
But ownership of the commlink he buy will not be transferred to his SIN.
Think of having a SIN as more akin of having a green card.
Your green card is checked to make sure you are a legit citizen and not an illegal alien.
But your items are not connected to your green card.
Having a green card is not required to buy stuff with real cash from a vending machine.
Now he technically "owns" the commlink... for as long as that fake SIN stays active. (And once it's burned, then everything registered to it is also burned.. And he "owns" nothing, even though he is in "possession" of the commlink...)
Again SR4. This is not the case in SR5.
In SR5 fake licenses are connected to a specific fake SIN ("A fake license is connected to a fake SIN, and if one of them is exposed, the other becomes worthless", SR5 p. 419).
Also credit accounts are typically (but not always!) linked to a specific fake SIN ("Each account must be registered to a particular (usually fake) SIN, unless the account is handled by an anonymous underworld banking service (with its own risks and complications)", SR5 p. 442).
That's about it.
but yes, RAW that is what happens.
Please provide a citation from SR5 if you want to argue RAW.
How do you buy your GRID access? (they cost money remember? Except for the Public GRID... Eww! Loser). How do you buy your Music? Or your games? Or pay for your groceries? Or for that paywall to "Hot Troll chicks with Dwarf Girls on llamas"???? (Cause you GOT to see THAT! its a classic you know!)
You either pay for it via credit account (which is linked to a SIN, fake or otherwise) or, in the case of Shadowrunners and SINless, you pay for it via certified credstick (which belong to whoever is holding it, similar to cash or bitcoin back in 2022).
Bank accounts are stored in SINs
Certified credsticks are not.
-
We are not at cross definations here... let me ask you this:
Yes, we absolutely are...
SINless guy walks into a store, and hands the clerk $2500 in certified Cred. The Clerk hands SINless Guy a Commlink....
How does the SINless guy take LEGAL possession of his property??
Short answer is: "He can't". YES he has the plastic goodie in his dirty SINless hand... but he doesn't actually own it. (from a LEGAL stand point). YES he paid cash money from his own savings, the clerk acknowledged and affirmed the transaction by handing the SINless Guy the Commlink... But he doesn't LEGALLY own it. (Not in the world of Shadowrun!)
The reason that he doesn't own it is.... Because he doesn't have a SIN! Full Stop. Everything you own is Registered to a SIN... Remember? I quoted it to you from 2 different sources (and while I don't have the 6e book, I doubt its changed).
As I have been saying, all your property, be that physical, digital, intangible, is tied back to a SIN. Heck, even the initials in your name, city of birth, date of Birth, GPA, credentials, schools attended are all Stored in your SIN, even your DNA... A SIN is the depository of your life.... The digital thumb print that you exist.
Without a SIN, there is very little a person can do in the SR universe that interacts with "normal" society...
Now SINless Guy can get around some of this by using a Fake SIN... and have the ownership of the Commlink transferred from the store to the fake SIN, sure. Now he technically "owns" the commlink... for as long as that fake SIN stays active. (And once it's burned, then everything registered to it is also burned.. And he "owns" nothing, even though he is in "possession" of the commlink...)
AND YES, Anything that is registered to a fake SIN that gets burned gets legally frozen (And probably flagged as "stolen"). Be that apartments, guns, clothing, cars, GRID access, Commlinks, and any other property registered to it. So get out those "dice" and start transferring ownerships :P
<Not that many tables go THAT far into the whole system and issues with SINs, but yes, RAW that is what happens. Most tables just hand wave all this away when a SIN gets burned... or should I say IF a SIN gets burned... as this seems to happen very little in actual play.... >
Ok. I challenge you to walk up to some stranger, and unprompted, ask them "How many properties do you own?". I can tell you before you do so that assuming English is their native tongue, they'll think you're asking how many parcels of real estate they own and will answer accordingly, rather than tallying how many physical and virtual possessions they have.
I agree with you that "property" can be a synonym for "possession", but I'm apparently a hard disagree with you in that it is not ALWAYS a synonym for "possession". Just because you have to have a SIN to own "property" it does NOT mean by RAW, despite your claims to the contrary, that you have to have a SIN to own possessions.
And then there is the Matrix... which we have talked about and probably never going to see eye to eye on...
If the Matrix and SINs are not attached: How do you buy your GRID access? (they cost money remember? Except for the Public GRID... Eww! Loser). How do you buy your Music? Or your games? Or pay for your groceries? Or for that paywall to "Hot Troll chicks with Dwarf Girls on llamas"???? (Cause you GOT to see THAT! its a classic you know!) So clearly, there is some overlap and cross connectivity between the Matrix and SINs... there has to be, or the Matrix is not a financial tool. (Because Bank accounts are stored in SINs remember?). How do you take ownership of your digital property if SINs and the Matrix Don't interact? And since they have to interact with your personna (because you're ON the Matrix!) to conduct the transaction....
Without SINs (real or fake) and therefore without bank accounts, you use certified credit. Dude, this lore goes back to 1e.
The only possible way this is problematic is if you dogmatically insist that the word "property" can only mean exactly the same thing as possession, hence my saying that semantic disagreement seems to be the basis of your hangup, if not the entire cause of it.
By the way, I don't know if you realize it or not but "magical matrix fairy dust" actually isn't actually that far off from being how it truly does work, in-universe. The corps actually don't understand how the matrix works... completely. More on that downpost...
***
Big Brother doesn't use "whatever technobabble the matrix uses with personas" in SIN verification tech because they don't understand how the Matrix works.
Wait... WHAT?!?!?!
"They" (being the Corps) build digital worlds in it, use it for data storage and transmission, conduct phone calls, digital meetings, build programs to run in, modify, edit, deny access to, encrypt and change it, transfer trillions of credits through it, HOURLY. Use it to send thoughts, smells, images, sounds, and tactile impulses directly to and interacting directly WITH THEIR BRAINS (and yours too if you hot-sim VR).
But "They" don't know haw it works. Entirely...
Wow.... you would think, what with everything they can do, and DO do, they would know how it works...
I mean really ::)
Now, I don't expect there to be a giant blurb in the rulebook that goes into great detail about the minute details of how it works.... but "They don't know how it works, entirely" ???
Yea... ok.
This just doesn't work for some of us.
To be fair, you're not the only one who doesn't like that aspect of the setting lore, but it is what it is. The powers that be essentially "found" the matrix, realized they could use it after Crash 2.0, and simply built upon it. 6e didn't establish this, and the 6e FAQ that prompted this whole discussion is just complying with what has already come before.
-
This is what SR 5 has to say on SINs (pages 366, 367)
Identification
Your average Joe Wageslave in the Sixth World doesn’t
give a second thought to their identity in the system.
They get up in the morning, go to work, buy the groceries,
pay the bills, and go to bed in their living space.
They don’t think about who knows who they are, how
much their employer controls them, who those bill payments
are going to, how their commlink knows what
groceries they need this week, and who knows where
they live. Yes, Joe Wageslave is pretty oblivious to the
system that surrounds everything they do. But anyone
who chooses to live off the grid (like shadowrunners)
are all too aware of how the system of identity works.
System Identification Number (SIN)
The foundation of an identity in the Sixth World is the
System Identification Number (SIN). If someone wanted
to divide the world into two groups of people, it could
be done by saying there are those who have a SIN and
those who don’t. That is, if you even consider the SINless
to be “people,” which some don’t. Modern society
in 2075 produces a staggering amount of information
every second of every day: where you are, what you
buy, and what you do. With the system producing all of
these pieces of information, there needs to be an easy
way to store, track, and correlate it. All of that information
needs to be associated with a person somehow.
That’s where the SIN comes in. A SIN is issued to a person
a birth, and stays with them (baring exceptional circumstances)
for the rest of their life. A SIN identifies a
person in the global information system and is attached
to every piece of information associated with them in
the Matrix. No aspect of modern or legal life can function
without a SIN. Those who don’t have one can’t get a
job, can’t buy food, can’t even walk down the street. To
the system, these people don’t exist.
The first part in bold says (again) "Modern society in 2075 produces a staggering amount of information every second of every day: where you are, what you buy, and what you do. With the system producing all of these pieces of information, there needs to be an easy way to store, track, and correlate it. All of that information needs to be associated with a person somehow."
So lets break down this even more to the new bold sections up top:
WHERE YOU ARE
So it seems that the SIN is tracking your movements, probably through the system of SIN checkers and MAD sensors and other devices as you go about your day.... And lets hope that's where it ends and its not as bad as say... China with fun stats like "1 security camera for every 2 people in the country".... But it probably is closer to 10 sensors for every person in the city in SR...
WHAT YOU BUY
So its tracking everything you buy... Is this just tracking money in and out of your account? Or is it also recording things like your house, your car, your commlink, and everything else you "own"?? Sounds like a little of both - if not a LOT of both.
AND WHAT YOU DO
Is that your job? Or you spanking it in the public john? OR BOTH??! (ug, scary thought!) Is it tracking you and making a log... "Xenon spent 15 minutes reading a pedantic post by Reaver, then spent 20 minutes responding to said Post on the Shadowrun Forums." Or is it just concerned with the "Big Stuff" like "Xenon went to College for 4 years to study 'Proper post response, Then went to work for 'Responses R Us for 6 years..."? I hope its the later... but you never know (again, look to China)
Now lets look at the last bold section from the book quote that reads " A SIN identifies a person in the global information system and is attached to every piece of information associated with them in
the Matrix"
So its attached to the Matrix... it tells us so, and it tracks everything associated to the individual on the Matrix...
Now what does 5e have to say about Owners? Page 236
Owners
Every device, persona, host, and file has an owner. This is
a special relationship that offers special privileges. Each
Matrix object can only have one owner, but you can own
as many Matrix objects as you like. The owner of a device,
host, persona, or file can always spot it in the Matrix.
For all intents and purposes, owning an icon is the
same as having four marks on it.
Owning a device and being its owner aren’t necessarily
the same thing, although they usually go together.
Ownership, at least in the Matrix, is something that
is registered with both the device (or other icons) and
the grids, so it’s a bit more involved than just putting a
“Property of [blank]” sticker on it. When a commlink is
at the store or in a warehouse, the commlink’s owner is
its manufacturer (although sometimes stores get ownership
of their goods before the buyer does). When you
buy that commlink, the store or manufacturer transfers
ownership to you.
Corporations and governments use this registration
system to keep track of their equipment. A security
guard’s weapon might be in her holster, but its owner is
the corp that employs her. This makes it relatively simple
to track down thieves, deserters, and looters—at least,
the ones who can’t hack what they steal.
The owner of an icon can intentionally transfer ownership
to another persona in a process that takes about
a minute. If you steal a smartgun without transferring
the ownership, the gun will still behave as though its
owner is the guy you stole it from (which can lead to
complications if the owner comes looking for it). That
means changing ownership is a high-priority action any
time you steal a wireless-enabled item. You can illegally
change a device’s owner with a Hardware toolkit and
an Extended Hardware + Logic [Mental] (24, 1 hour)
test. A glitch on that test results in the item sending a
report to the authorities.
Changing ownership of a file is somewhat easier.
Your best bet is to use Edit File to copy it (the copy’s
owner is you) and then delete the original, again with
the Edit File action.
Note that you can’t change the owner of a persona
or a host. So sorry, chummer—you can’t steal an entire
Stuffer Shack with a quick hack.
I have put some parts in Bold for us to look at....
Every device, persona, host, and file has an owner.
Ok, not to hard here. Everything is owned by someone. But what is tracking that ownership? Is it the Persona, which in itself it being owned? Or could this be tracked by the SIN? As per the
" A SIN identifies a person in the global information system and is attached to every piece of information associated with them in the Matrix" line from under SINs? True, it doesn't come right out and say "this is tracked by your SIN", but it seems to go around in a circle here... Your Persona, which is owned by you and tracks its ownership by... your Persona!
So lets try substituting Persona with Car... Your Car, which is owned by you and tracks its ownership by your car. Does that make sense? Your Gun, which is owned by you, and tracks its ownership by your Gun! Yea... There is a disconnect for me here... Is it the wording? What are they trying to tell us here about ownership...
The owner of a device, host, persona, or file can always spot it in the Matrix
Again, is this sloppy wording? Why is Persona used here? If I own the persona (and I become the persona from a device at log in. how can I see my persona when it "taken", especially since you can't seem to "steal" a Persona. Cover this more down below when I get to Personas). Every else here makes sense, but the throw in of Persona makes it wonky reading for what everyone is trying to say what a Persona can do...
When you buy that commlink, the store or manufacturer transfers ownership to you.
Ok, but what are they transferring ownership TO??? Where is my ownership being stored? Is this just being attached to my Persona as is conjectured (and the GRIDs/Device), is this being attached to my SIN? (Again just from a single line in the SIN write up)... Its not clear...What is legally receiving that ownership and shows that I have responsibility for said item?
The owner of an icon can intentionally transfer ownership to another persona
Icon is being used here because every physical object that is on the matrix has a Icon, I get that, no issues there. And this statement seems to imply that the ownership is changed to the another persona, but what is tracking that? Is it just the persona? Or is it the persona, tied back to the SIN, and its the SIN that is tracking it? (more on this later down)
Note that you can’t change the owner of a persona or a host.
So Persona, can't have a change of ownership. Is this how people are trying to link a Persona to tracking ownership?
Persona as said by 5e page 235
Persona
Personas are the “people” of the Matrix. Some personas
are actually people, users and hackers who are connected
to and using the Matrix. When a person uses a device
to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed
by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the
Matrix until the persona jacks out. You can only run one
persona at a time; switching requires you to reboot both
the device you’re currently on and the device to which
you want to shift your persona.
Some personas are agents, performing tasks on behalf
of their owners. Agents running alone on a device
replace the device icon the same way a living user does.
If you’re running an agent along with your persona, it
appears with its own separate persona, even though
you’re using the same device.
Each IC program has its own persona. IC programs
are not connected to devices because they’re only
found in hosts (thankfully).
Technomancers have a living persona not attached
to any device. A technomancer’s persona exists in the
Matrix as long as they’re awake, unless they deliberately
jack out. When a technomancer compiles a sprite, the
sprite has its own persona, too.
A couple of bold sections to look at here.
Personas are the “people” of the Matrix.
Right, in a nutshell every single Persona you see is a person/agent/IC working away. nothing big or unexpected here....
When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon
Right, so we know that everything in the physical word is an Icon in the matrix, and what this is telling us is that when you log onto a device, its Icon gets removed and replaced by your persona...
But nowhere in here does it say that a Persona tracks anything, or stores anything. All its saying is that YOU become the device and YOU are your Persona. Be that a commlink, a cyberdeck, a dataterm, once you log in, the Icon for the Commlink/cyberdeck/dataterm is gone, replaced by your Persona...
****
Like I have been saying, There is a disconnect here. Personas don't seem to really track anything, and are just "You" on the matrix. Anything that seems to have to do with ownership is still tied back to the SIN, but is being passed THOUGH the persona (YOU on the matrix)... And THIS Makes sense to me, Because the Persona isn't anything more then "YOU logged in on a device".
Now, lets move forward into the SR universe and look at some things...
Many items in Shadowrun are Restricted, (That "R' in the availability code) to LEGALLY get these items, one needs to get a License for the item. Your License isn't tracked by your Persona, its tracked by your SIN. If your SIN and the Matrix are not connected, how would an online vendor know I can LEGALLY buy their goods?
And before anyone barks:
Licenses
A basic SIN allows a person to function within the most
basic parameters of the law. If a person wants to operate
outside these very confining strictures, they need special
permission in the form of a license. What actions or
items require a license vary widely with the laws of the
country, but there are some common similarities shown
in the Common Licenses Table below. Acquiring a license
(legally) is, again, dependent on the laws of the
country. For the most part, acquiring a license involves
making an application, paying some sort of fee, a SIN
check, and possibly passing one or more certification,
testing, or training programs. The exact details of acquiring
a license are left up to the gamemaster, but government
bureaucracies are notoriously slow and frustrating
No mention of a Persona, but SIN gets brought up twice.... and I will remind you that LEGALLY speaking, many hacking tools/programs require a License to own.... (own...Own... Ownership....).
Now some are going to say "Well you just "show" your license. Sure, I get that... but again, its stored on your SIN... So the Matrix and SINs must be connected, somehow (besides them saying so in the SIN section).
Quote from: Reaver on Today at 03:29:57
SINless guy walks into a store, and hands the clerk $2500 in certified Cred. The Clerk hands SINless Guy a Commlink....
How does the SINless guy take LEGAL possession of his property??
SR5 p. 237 Ownership
When a commlink is at the store or in a warehouse, the commlink’s owner is its manufacturer (although sometimes stores get ownership of their goods before the buyer does). When you buy that commlink, the store or manufacturer transfers ownership to you.
Quote from: Reaver on Today at 03:29:57
he has the plastic goodie in his dirty SINless hand... but he doesn't actually own it. (from a LEGAL stand point). YES he paid cash money from his own savings, the clerk acknowledged and affirmed the transaction by handing the SINless Guy the Commlink... But he doesn't LEGALLY own it. (Not in the world of Shadowrun!)
For the first 60 seconds perhaps. Correct.
But once the clerk legally transferred ownership to him he will be the commlink's legit matrix owner.
Again, What is the clerk transferring ownership TO??? Is it a Persona- which from the above doesn't seem like it. OR, is it to a SIN (and LEGALLY Speaking, everyone should have)? And since our Guy is SINless.. technically Ownership can't be completed...
IF it IS to the Persona, HOW? The Persona doesn't seem to store anything from what was told to us, but seems to be a pass through/access point to the SIN of the individual.
The rest, I covered above.
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We are not at cross definations here... let me ask you this:
Yes, we absolutely are...
SINless guy walks into a store, and hands the clerk $2500 in certified Cred. The Clerk hands SINless Guy a Commlink....
How does the SINless guy take LEGAL possession of his property??
Short answer is: "He can't". YES he has the plastic goodie in his dirty SINless hand... but he doesn't actually own it. (from a LEGAL stand point). YES he paid cash money from his own savings, the clerk acknowledged and affirmed the transaction by handing the SINless Guy the Commlink... But he doesn't LEGALLY own it. (Not in the world of Shadowrun!)
The reason that he doesn't own it is.... Because he doesn't have a SIN! Full Stop. Everything you own is Registered to a SIN... Remember? I quoted it to you from 2 different sources (and while I don't have the 6e book, I doubt its changed).
As I have been saying, all your property, be that physical, digital, intangible, is tied back to a SIN. Heck, even the initials in your name, city of birth, date of Birth, GPA, credentials, schools attended are all Stored in your SIN, even your DNA... A SIN is the depository of your life.... The digital thumb print that you exist.
Without a SIN, there is very little a person can do in the SR universe that interacts with "normal" society...
Now SINless Guy can get around some of this by using a Fake SIN... and have the ownership of the Commlink transferred from the store to the fake SIN, sure. Now he technically "owns" the commlink... for as long as that fake SIN stays active. (And once it's burned, then everything registered to it is also burned.. And he "owns" nothing, even though he is in "possession" of the commlink...)
AND YES, Anything that is registered to a fake SIN that gets burned gets legally frozen (And probably flagged as "stolen"). Be that apartments, guns, clothing, cars, GRID access, Commlinks, and any other property registered to it. So get out those "dice" and start transferring ownerships :P
<Not that many tables go THAT far into the whole system and issues with SINs, but yes, RAW that is what happens. Most tables just hand wave all this away when a SIN gets burned... or should I say IF a SIN gets burned... as this seems to happen very little in actual play.... >
Ok. I challenge you to walk up to some stranger, and unprompted, ask them "How many properties do you own?". I can tell you before you do so that assuming English is their native tongue, they'll think you're asking how many parcels of real estate they own and will answer accordingly, rather than tallying how many physical and virtual possessions they have.
I agree with you that "property" can be a synonym for "possession", but I'm apparently a hard disagree with you in that it is not ALWAYS a synonym for "possession". Just because you have to have a SIN to own "property" it does NOT mean by RAW, despite your claims to the contrary, that you have to have a SIN to own possessions.
And then there is the Matrix... which we have talked about and probably never going to see eye to eye on...
If the Matrix and SINs are not attached: How do you buy your GRID access? (they cost money remember? Except for the Public GRID... Eww! Loser). How do you buy your Music? Or your games? Or pay for your groceries? Or for that paywall to "Hot Troll chicks with Dwarf Girls on llamas"???? (Cause you GOT to see THAT! its a classic you know!) So clearly, there is some overlap and cross connectivity between the Matrix and SINs... there has to be, or the Matrix is not a financial tool. (Because Bank accounts are stored in SINs remember?). How do you take ownership of your digital property if SINs and the Matrix Don't interact? And since they have to interact with your personna (because you're ON the Matrix!) to conduct the transaction....
Without SINs (real or fake) and therefore without bank accounts, you use certified credit. Dude, this lore goes back to 1e.
The only possible way this is problematic is if you dogmatically insist that the word "property" can only mean exactly the same thing as possession, hence my saying that semantic disagreement seems to be the basis of your hangup, if not the entire cause of it.
By the way, I don't know if you realize it or not but "magical matrix fairy dust" actually isn't actually that far off from being how it truly does work, in-universe. The corps actually don't understand how the matrix works... completely. More on that downpost...
***
Big Brother doesn't use "whatever technobabble the matrix uses with personas" in SIN verification tech because they don't understand how the Matrix works.
Wait... WHAT?!?!?!
"They" (being the Corps) build digital worlds in it, use it for data storage and transmission, conduct phone calls, digital meetings, build programs to run in, modify, edit, deny access to, encrypt and change it, transfer trillions of credits through it, HOURLY. Use it to send thoughts, smells, images, sounds, and tactile impulses directly to and interacting directly WITH THEIR BRAINS (and yours too if you hot-sim VR).
But "They" don't know haw it works. Entirely...
Wow.... you would think, what with everything they can do, and DO do, they would know how it works...
I mean really ::)
Now, I don't expect there to be a giant blurb in the rulebook that goes into great detail about the minute details of how it works.... but "They don't know how it works, entirely" ???
Yea... ok.
This just doesn't work for some of us.
To be fair, you're not the only one who doesn't like that aspect of the setting lore, but it is what it is. The powers that be essentially "found" the matrix, realized they could use it after Crash 2.0, and simply built upon it. 6e didn't establish this, and the 6e FAQ that prompted this whole discussion is just complying with what has already come before.
Definition of Property
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/property
property noun
prop·er·ty | \ ˈprä-pər-tē
\
plural properties
Definition of property
1a : a quality or trait belonging and especially peculiar to an individual or thing
b : an effect that an object has on another object or on the senses
c : virtue sense 2
d : an attribute common to all members of a class
2a : something owned or possessed specifically : a piece of real estate
b : the exclusive right to possess, enjoy, and dispose of a thing : ownership
c : something to which a person or business has a legal title
d : one (such as a performer) who is under contract and whose work is especially valuable
e : a book or script purchased for publication or production
3 : an article or object used in a play or motion picture except painted scenery and costumes
definition of Possession
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/possession
possession noun
pos·ses·sion | \ pə-ˈze-shən
also -ˈse- \
Definition of possession
1a : the act of having or taking into control
b : control or occupancy of property without regard to ownership
c : ownership
d : control of the ball or puck also : an instance of having such control (as in football) scored on their first two possessions
2 : something owned, occupied, or controlled : property
3a : domination by something (such as an evil spirit, a passion, or an idea)
b : a psychological state in which an individual's normal personality is replaced by another
c : self-possession
um...
Possession means control.... Can sometimes mean ownership.. and Sometimes not. ("I have a license for the possession of Firearms")
Hence "Charged with POSSESSION of STOLEN PROPERTY"
You don't own it, but you are in control of it, Hence "Possession"
Property means ownership. Yes most commonly for land.... But any object (and sadly people) can be the Property of another. (Again. Ownership)
"That truck is my PROPERTY", "That song you are listening to is my PROPERTY" (says the Musician)
SO AGAIN:
The SINless Guy, has the Commlink in his possession. (He has control of it), But he doesn't LEGALLY own the commlink because he can't register its purchase, (with I am ASSUMING) a SIN.
The only thing that seems to track ownership. (as Personas don't seem to, at least I can't find mention of them anywhere)
Without SINs (real or fake) and therefore without bank accounts, you use certified credit. Dude, this lore goes back to 1e.
The only possible way this is problematic is if you dogmatically insist that the word "property" can only mean exactly the same thing as possession, hence my saying that semantic disagreement seems to be the basis of your hangup, if not the entire cause of it.
Sure, Hence why SINless Guy paid in certified Cred. I'm not arguing that. And Even back in 3e SINs still tracked all these little details, but the wireless matrix has compounded this AND The data that is collected and harvested. AND, like I said above, Property and Possession can/are two different things from a matter of perspective.
WHERE EXACTLY IS THIS BEING RECORDED?!?!?!? Please quote me the EXACT page, paragraph and context that says "Personas track ownership" Because I can't.
look, All this shit TODAY gets recorded, just not in a handy dandy spot like a SIN. Want to Drive (legally) you have to license, which recorded with the DMV, and can be checked by the cops at anytime.
You CAR is REGISTERED to you and tracked by your insurance company, which can again be checked by a cop any time they choose.
In many Countries you are require to REGISTER your firearms with the government, so the cops can pull you over 13 times in a week to "just check" (Not that I am bitter or anything)
If you buy a house, even if you pay CASH, you still have to register the land and buildings (trying to avoid the word "Property" for you :P ) which can be checked by anyone with a simple Land titles search.
BUT, instead of being in 30 different departments and branches spread across all levels of Government, a SIN puts it all in one handy, dandy place. Now granted, I can't quote you an exact page number and a direct quote for SINs either, I posted everything I can find in the main books (not checked the companion books) on SINs and how they work...
And yes, I have had to backtrack on info (even going back to 2e!) for some of this... But I have posted everything I have for 5e and the lore for SINs....
The Wireless Matrix, and Personas we just have much less to work with, and nothing that spells out that Personas have taken over for SIN in the "cataloging of life" department...
Heck we don't really have evidence of Personas storing ANYTHING....
AND NOTE: I am NOT talking about Runners (they have their own tricks), just average citizens...
-
So its tracking everything you buy
In 2022 people typically paid for stuff using their VISA card. Which behind the scenes was somehow connected to their social security number (or equivalent). In the background this is creating an electronic data trail.
Some people opt to pay for stuff using real cash. This behavior typically leave a much smaller digital footprint.
In SR people would normally buy their stuff in legit stores that uses SIN verification units to validate that all customers are legit citizens and normal people typically also use their bank account that is connected to their legit SIN. In the background this is creating an electronic data trail much like when people paid with their VISA back in 2022.
SINless people typically buy their stuffs at stores that doesn't run SIN verification units and they typically pay with certified credsticks (or trade goods, favors or services). This behavior leave a much smaller digital footprint.
This is not the same thing as all items you buy are linked to your SIN. That if you leave your hat at a crime scene it can be linked back to you and the SIN you used when you bought the specific hat. That if your SIN is burned you are no longer considered to be the legit owner of your hat (insert any other possession instead of hat).
A SIN identifies a person in the global information system and is attached to every piece of information associated with them in
the Matrix
I read this as SIN is the primary key that keep the information together in all them databases. In 2022 this was typically a social security number or personal number or persona number of sorts (I guess this depend a bit on which country you live in).
what is tracking that ownership?
According to the FAQ (http://"https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/shadowrun-sixth-world-faq/#hack-ownership"): Actual ownership of a device is a registration maintained in multiple and redundant databases across the Matrix, much like SIN registries. It is no simple feat to illegally transfer ownership without the true owner’s consent.
Why is Persona used here?
Because agents have personas of their own. Sprites as well.
what are they transferring ownership TO
To YOU.
Which in the context of matrix ownership mean your matrix identity that is representing YOU within the matrix. Your Matrix Persona.
SR5 p. 238 Ownership
The owner of an icon can intentionally transfer ownership to another persona
Where is my ownership being stored?
"in multiple and redundant databases across the Matrix"
is this being attached to my SIN?
No, ownership (in 5th edition) does not seem to be linked to your SIN (fake or otherwise).
Icon is being used here because every physical object that is on the matrix has a Icon, I get that
Also every virtual object (typically represented by File Icons) that is on the matrix also has an Icon, not just physical devices (represented by Device Icons).
Right, in a nutshell every single Persona you see is a person/agent/IC working away. nothing big or unexpected here
Agreed.
It also seem as if it is Personas (and not Devices) that execute Matrix Actions.
But nowhere in here does it say that a Persona tracks anything, or stores anything. All its saying is that YOU become the device and YOU are your Persona
Agreed.
Anything that seems to have to do with ownership is still tied back to the SIN
No, ownership is linked to YOU.
Whenever you are accessing the matrix it seem as if YOU are represented by your Matrix Persona. I like to think that the legit matrix owner of your devices are your Matrix Persona. And that is why a hacker that have a Mark on your Matrix Persona can Spoof a Command to any devices you are the legit matrix owner of, impersonating an instruction as if it came from its legit owner.
YOU are also the legit matrix owner of a device no matter which SIN you are currently broadcasting. And no matter if you are not broadcasting a SIN at all. Or if you are SINless.
I do not agree that ownership is tied back to the SIN (perhaps it was in SR4, but this is no longer the case in SR5).
the Persona isn't anything more then "YOU logged in on a device".
YOU are represented by your Matrix Persona as long as you are accessing the matrix. We agree here.
But since YOU are considered to be the legit matrix owner of your devices (not your SIN) then it seems (at least to my reading) that as long as YOU are accessing the matrix then, by extension, your Matrix Persona (the virtual matrix representation of YOU) is to be considered the legit matrix owner of your devices (or rather your virtual device icons).
Your License isn't tracked by your Persona, its tracked by your SIN
Agreed.
If your SIN and the Matrix are not connected, how would an online vendor know I can LEGALLY buy their goods?
Most shadowrunners probably buy their guns on the black market, even if they happen to have a fake SIN with a fake license to possess firearms. Fake license to possess firearms is probably more relevant when you get pulled over by Lone Star.
Whenever you are accessing the matrix you are (or technically your Matrix Persona is) typically broadcasting the SIN (including it's licenses that are connected to it) that belong to YOU.
If you are in possession of a firearm as a SINless (or if you are broadcasting another fake SIN, a fake SIN that does not have a fake license to possess firearms connected to it) when Lone Star find a firearm on your body then you will be considered breaking the law ("possession of firearm without proper license").
So the Matrix and SINs must be connected, somehow
Sure. I mean, you (or technically your matrix persona) broadcast your SIN over the Matrix. Whenever you buy things via a credit account that is connected to your SIN you leave a data trail within the matrix. Your SIN is being logged whenever a SIN verification unit is trying to validate if you are a legit citizen or not.
But this is not the same thing as matrix ownership of a device is being connected by a specific SIN. Matrix ownership of a device is connected to YOU. Since YOU are considered the legit matrix owner of your car YOU can remote control it (without hacking it). If you choose to broadcast another of your fake SINs YOU will still be considered its legal matrix owner and YOU can still remote control it. The only requirement here is that YOU are accessing to the matrix (using your Matrix Persona).
Matrix ownership of devices you own are all related to your Matrix Persona (the matrix representation of YOU).
It is not related to if you have a SIN or not or if you are currently broadcasting a fake SIN or which fake SIN you are currently broadcasting or if you bought the item with a credit account or via a credstick or if it was given to you as a gift.
-
Property
Property and SIN are not related in SR5+
Perhaps it was at some point, but it is not anymore.
Please quote me the EXACT page, paragraph and context that says "Personas track ownership" Because I can't.
SR5 p. 238 Ownership
The owner of an icon can intentionally transfer ownership to another persona
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Just caught this bit while looking up Certified Credsticks:
A credit account is a Matrix bank account accessible via your commlink as long as you are on a grid. Transactions require passcode or biometric verification to be authorized, hence the reason for a biometric reader on your commlink. The digital transactions from these accounts leave a trail that, while it can be hidden or concealed, is entirely too traceable for serious criminal activities. Each account must be registered to a particular (usually fake) SIN, unless the account is handled by an anonymous underworld banking service (with its own risks and complications). The cost of banking services is included in your lifestyle costs if you’ve got a Low Lifestyle or better—otherwise you’ll need to keep all your money on credsticks. If a fake SIN attached to an account is burned, the money is lost.
From that, it says to me that if you're purchasing anything and NOT using a certified credstick, the commlink attached to your account has to have biometric reader so it can identify you and allow access to your account. I'd GM that to mean that, to access your persona is akin to accessing your SIN/Accounts, and it identifies you with a bio-reader. If you don't use a bio-reader to identify yourself, it's a generic persona/icon that has all the limited abilities and access of a public PC in the library.
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Oh, and:
Biometric reader
This handheld device can be used for fingerprints, retina scans, voice patterns, and tongue prints. You can use it to lock your electronics so only you (or one of your body parts) can unlock it.
If it ain't locked by the bio-meter, whoever uses the commlink will appear to be the owner of the commlink..
-
Reaver, I do trust that you're not being deliberately obstinate, and am continuing to engage you out of that belief. If you're trolling me, congrats.
On "property": there's "real property", "private property", "personal property", "government property", "intellectual property" and many more kinds of properties. You're fixating on "property" never meaning anything other than "personal property".
You know. I know. Even Xenon is telling you that SINs are simply not tied to ownership in Shadowrun. It's impossible to explain to you WHY this is not a conundrum when you refuse to accept that there's any difference between, for example, real property and personal property. And for that reason, that's the end of my attempts to do so.
Let me try to TL;DR the entire picture for someone stumbling across the thread at this point, without having read everything up to here:
The venn diagram (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/venn-diagram.asp#:~:text=A%20Venn%20diagram%20is%20an,and%20differences%20between%20two%20concepts.) of SINs, Personas, and Matrix Ownership are three circles that don't overlap each other.
matrix ownership doesn't look at SINs or the persona. SINless, matrix luddites can own gear.
---matrix ownership can be transferred voluntarily, or hacked.
personas are not tied to SINs.
---personas can never be traded, willingly or otherwise
SINs are not tied to personas, and are irrelevant when it comes to matrix ownership.
---SINs can be "hacked", of sorts, but only by NPCs and it takes years to do so.
The reason these three "identities" can have different rules is because they're three distinct concepts. You're not struggling with why auras aren't incorporated into SINs, are you? Or why you can't fool a bonded focus into thinking you're the one who bonded with it? A persona is actually very close to being your "aura", just for the matrix instead of astral space.
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Just caught this bit while looking up Certified Credsticks:
A credit account is a Matrix bank account accessible via your commlink as long as you are on a grid. Transactions require passcode or biometric verification to be authorized, hence the reason for a biometric reader on your commlink. The digital transactions from these accounts leave a trail that, while it can be hidden or concealed, is entirely too traceable for serious criminal activities. Each account must be registered to a particular (usually fake) SIN, unless the account is handled by an anonymous underworld banking service (with its own risks and complications). The cost of banking services is included in your lifestyle costs if you’ve got a Low Lifestyle or better—otherwise you’ll need to keep all your money on credsticks. If a fake SIN attached to an account is burned, the money is lost.
From that, it says to me that if you're purchasing anything and NOT using a certified credstick, the commlink attached to your account has to have biometric reader so it can identify you and allow access to your account. I'd GM that to mean that, to access your persona is akin to accessing your SIN/Accounts, and it identifies you with a bio-reader. If you don't use a bio-reader to identify yourself, it's a generic persona/icon that has all the limited abilities and access of a public PC in the library.
That's more of a feature of the SIN verification mechanics, rather than being indicative of SINs and personas having any link.
Also note that fake SINs don't use YOUR biometrics, so using a fake SIN with a credit account is still problematic... hence the essentially ubiquitous use of certified credit for people like shadowrunners.
Biometric data associated with
a high-Rating SIN will be from a real person with the
same sex and nationality as the purchaser with (if the
extra fee is paid) matching organic samples available
(blood, skin cells, hair—just don’t ask where they came
from).
-
matrix luddites can own gear.
That is an interesting question actually :)
Can you really be considered a matrix owner of a wireless enabled device if you have zero matrix presence. If you never access the matrix and you don't have a matrix persona then to whom should the previous matrix owner legally transfer the matrix ownership to...?
If you are not on the matrix at all then you also can't execute matrix actions (they only seem to exists within the matrix). You don't have any MARKs. You can't seem to remote control devices over the matrix.
Of course you can still be in possession of things (physically), but... yeah.
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matrix luddites can own gear.
That is an interesting question actually :)
Can you really be considered a matrix owner of a wireless enabled device if you have zero matrix presence. If you never access the matrix and you don't have a matrix persona then to whom should the previous matrix owner legally transfer the matrix ownership to...?
If you are not on the matrix at all then you also can't execute matrix actions (they only seem to exists within the matrix). You don't have any MARKs. You can't seem to remote control devices over the matrix.
Of course you can still be in possession of things (physically), but... yeah.
They won't gain any matrix functionality, such as wireless bonuses or inclusion in a PAN, if they are luddites who never even use AR... but they're still the matrix owners of the device. Someone can't snatch their gear and just add it to their own PAN while the luddite "owns" it, even if they're not "using" it, matrix-wise.
Edit: Actually... the question of whether a PAN can exist w/o a Persona is a good one. I'm not confident the answer is as clear cut as I initially made it sound there.
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Reaver, I do trust that you're not being deliberately obstinate, and am continuing to engage you out of that belief. If you're trolling me, congrats.
On "property": there's "real property", "private property", "personal property", "government property", "intellectual property" and many more kinds of properties. You're fixating on "property" never meaning anything other than "personal property".
Dude, Stop. JUST STOP. LISTEN TO YOURSELF!
Real, private, personal, governmental... yadda yadda... at the CORE of all those things is OWNERSHIP! Not direct physical control (that would be "possession"). OWNERSHIP! Anything BEFORE the word "property" Is just a descriptor. It DOES NOT change the meaning of the word PROPERTY.
AGAIN: the defination of PROPERTY was posted for you above!
(I'll post it again)
property noun
prop·er·ty | \ ˈprä-pər-tē
\
plural properties
Definition of property
1a : a quality or trait belonging and especially peculiar to an individual or thing
b : an effect that an object has on another object or on the senses
c : virtue sense 2
d : an attribute common to all members of a class
2a : something owned or possessed specifically : a piece of real estate
b : the exclusive right to possess, enjoy, and dispose of a thing : ownership
c : something to which a person or business has a legal title
d : one (such as a performer) who is under contract and whose work is especially valuable
e : a book or script purchased for publication or production
3 : an article or object used in a play or motion picture except painted scenery and costumes
I have no idea what you mean by "real Property" Useless you mean a physical object, like a rock, or a shovel.. In which case, YES, you can have OWNERSHIP over those items. In fact, you can have OWNERSHIP of those items, and not have them in your Possession. (as Possession is a state of Control and to a lesser extent, ownership).
Private Property is a term that is used to denote SINGULAR OWNERSHIP of an person, place, or thing. Most often applied to (but NOT ALWAYS) to land, or buildings.
Personal Property is again a term that is used to denote SINGULAR OWNERSHIP of a person, place or thing. Most often applied to objects. AKA your car is your PERSONAL PROPERTY.
Governmental Property is AGAIN, a term that is used, this time to denote OWNERSHIP BY THE GOVERNMENT, of a person place or thing. Usually applied to infrastructure, land, or intellectual
I could go on... BUT, I think you are getting the point.... PROPERTY denotes OWNERSHIP.
THIS IS NOT, NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN THE POINT. DROP IT.
What IS the point, is how that OWNERSHIP is tracked. And it MUST be tracked! And it MUST be verifiable. If it is not, then the entire digtal world of the matrix breaks apart in a right old fashion, right quick.
The majority of people in SR do their shopping online. (you can see that in just about every write up about the matrix, or buying stuff.) Heck, even today, online shopping is outpacing store shopping.
BUT, from what you are saying, this is impossible! As there is no "Tracking" in the matrix... No logging... nothing to follow, nothing to confirm, nothing to verify back to.
So HOW are people buying shit if you can't link back to a Bank account (SIN related Remember?), or getting it delivered to them? (where they live), How does The Company KNOW that Mr. DOE got that brand new Assault Rifle, that he is allowed to own it, and that it didn't go to MR. Poe???
How does one do simple everyday things like Pay their electricity Bill? Or buy car insurance for their car, or pay their mortgage or their rent???!??!?!
ALL this shit HAS TO BE TRACKED!!!!!
And if its NOT tracked, how do they PROVE they paid that mortgage? Or that insurance bill? Or purchased that food??
But you're saying "nope! All good!"
You know. I know. Even Xenon is telling you that SINs are simply not tied to ownership in Shadowrun. It's impossible to explain to you WHY this is not a conundrum when you refuse to accept that there's any difference between, for example, real property and personal property. And for that reason, that's the end of my attempts to do so.
SOMETHING has to be, and you are saying that its Personas. OK FINE.
How does the cop that pulls you over for Speeding in downtown core, verify:
1: that you are allowed to drive?
2: that you actually own (OWNERSHIP!!!! in this case, personal Property!) the car?
3: that you car (if you own it) is insured?
Your Answer seems to be "You can't"... OR "My Persona"...
If its "You can't", can NOT see the problem????
SERIOUSLY?!?!! You are going to sit there, and say "nope, no problem here!" Come on Man! This is the Future! A Dystopian Future! The Cops, and Government, and ESPECIALLY the Corps are not going to sit back and say "Well, I guess we just won't track who owns what, or who paid for it, or is going to pay for it. Nope, don't need that hassle at all!" We track all this shit now! And much more besides.
If its "My Persona" Isn't that a Circular logic loop? To check to see if you own something, I am going to ask YOUR Persona, and then rely on YOUR Persona for verification.
"Please Verify that YOU did not steal this car"
"....I didn't steal this car"
"OK! Good enough for me!"
Come on man! This is about tracking things! Proving that you actually HAVE stuff! That you have a RIGHT to a place, thing, object, or item!
It HAS to be tracked, AND Verified somehow! If not, the whole world falls apart real fast....
Now I get the Meta for why its set up the way it is.. But again, JUST DO NOT WORK from a functioning society viewpoint. No one would use the Matrix for financial reason if NOTHING is tracked, backtracked, verified and certified.
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You know. I know. Even Xenon is telling you that SINs are simply not tied to ownership in Shadowrun. It's impossible to explain to you WHY this is not a conundrum when you refuse to accept that there's any difference between, for example, real property and personal property. And for that reason, that's the end of my attempts to do so.
SOMETHING has to be, and you are saying that its Personas. OK FINE.
No. That's NOT what I'm saying.
SINs are not tied to the matrix recognizing ownership of a device.
Personas are not tied to the matrix recognizing ownership of a device.
Matrix ownership is its own distinct concept independent of SINs and Personas.
How does the cop that pulls you over for Speeding in downtown core, verify:
1: that you are allowed to drive?
They submit your driver's license thru the SIN verification system (same thing checks licenses)
2: that you actually own (OWNERSHIP!!!! in this case, personal Property!) the car?
They submit your driver's license thru the SIN verification system (same thing checks licenses)
3: that you car (if you own it) is insured?
Actually insurance is not a thing, strictly speaking, as a rules mechanic. But if it were it'd be some combination of lifestyle to cover the cost, and having a convincing license as a means by which to verify your insurance is current.
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Just caught this bit while looking up Certified Credsticks:
A credit account is a Matrix bank account accessible via your commlink as long as you are on a grid. Transactions require passcode or biometric verification to be authorized, hence the reason for a biometric reader on your commlink. The digital transactions from these accounts leave a trail that, while it can be hidden or concealed, is entirely too traceable for serious criminal activities. Each account must be registered to a particular (usually fake) SIN, unless the account is handled by an anonymous underworld banking service (with its own risks and complications). The cost of banking services is included in your lifestyle costs if you’ve got a Low Lifestyle or better—otherwise you’ll need to keep all your money on credsticks. If a fake SIN attached to an account is burned, the money is lost.
From that, it says to me that if you're purchasing anything and NOT using a certified credstick, the commlink attached to your account has to have biometric reader so it can identify you and allow access to your account. I'd GM that to mean that, to access your persona is akin to accessing your SIN/Accounts, and it identifies you with a bio-reader. If you don't use a bio-reader to identify yourself, it's a generic persona/icon that has all the limited abilities and access of a public PC in the library.
See, THIS makes sense.
The SIN contains your Biometrics already. So when you want to purchase something online, Your Persona wonders up to the item and hits the Buy button. Which in turn triggers a challenge/response from the Persona, <Please confirm biometrics to complete purchase> So you jab your thumb on the reader, which tracks back to your SIN and accounts. IF the biometrics match the SIN (and why wouldn't it... you're not a criminal... ARE YOU?!!), the SIN unlocks the bank account, money is taken out of the account (through the Persona's actions), and the item is registered to you.
I would imagine that an item that required a license would also run a check for said license at the same time, but before the funds were taken from the accounts....
And this makes sense to me, because it features the SIN (you know, that thing that
A SIN identifies a
person in the global information system and is attached
to every piece of information associated with them in
the Matrix
)
And fits in with canon, and is reasonable to what should happen....
But this SIN/Persona/OWnership no touchy no talky no connection..... just doesn't fly.
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No. That's NOT what I'm saying.
SINs are not tied to the matrix recognizing ownership of a device.
Personas are not tied to the matrix recognizing ownership of a device.
Matrix ownership is its own distinct concept independent of SINs and Personas.
So, how do you track who owns what? IF they are all separate, then none of them are talking to each other. The SIN knows I live at 166-666th street, because it has the record of the land titles office attached to it, And the Mortgage papers are digitally signed in my name. So how does My Persona know that I "own" that house if its not talking to my SIN?
How does the cop that pulls you over for Speeding in downtown core, verify:
1: that you are allowed to drive?
They submit your driver's license thru the SIN verification system (same thing checks licenses)
2: that you actually own (OWNERSHIP!!!! in this case, personal Property!) the car?
They submit your driver's license thru the SIN verification system (same thing checks licenses)
What if I am remotely piloting my car so I am not there?
IF I bought the car online, with certified cred, how does my SIN know l own that car? Something has to be talking to each other... somewhere
3: that you car (if you own it) is insured?
Actually insurance is not a thing, strictly speaking, as a rules mechanic. But if it were it'd be some combination of lifestyle to cover the cost, and having a convincing license as a means by which to verify your insurance is current.
Oh I can assure you, Insurance is VERY MUCH a thing in Shadowrun :P But as you say, its probably absorbed into the lifestyle.
Which is another point...
IF everything is "separate" as you say, then that's even MORE of a clusterfuck! the Matrix "knows" I own a subscription to "Murdercross Maddness", but my Persona doesn't know the passcodes - Cause they DON'T TALK TO EACH OTHER!!
That Bike I bought with certified Cred, ISN'T registered to my SIN, So I can't park it anywhere, nor can I insure it because my SIN doesn't know I own it! But My Persona Knows!
I can't get into my house cause my Persona can't wirelessly unlock the door, because it doesn't know I have a lease for it on my SIN!!!
And to top it off.... I'm off to jail! Because the Matrix ownership doesn't talk to my SIN, so when I put my LEGALLY 'Possessed" gun into my jacket, The Matrix Ownership flagged for having stolen property, and a dangerous weapon to boot!
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Can you really be considered a matrix owner of a wireless enabled device if you have zero matrix presence. If you never access the matrix and you don't have a matrix persona then to whom should the previous matrix owner legally transfer the matrix ownership to...?
It is a valid question. What subject would said ownership be linked to if there is no digital identity?
Note that if you're not even IN AR, then you have no persona, and the question of authenticating your not-used persona is moot ;)
[..] what is explicit is that you only have a persona when accessing the matrix through a device with the proper matrix attributes. So by extension then it can be concluded that if your not fully accessing the matrix (through a minimum of AR) then there is no persona generated.
And how is authorization for matrix service access granted in an unauthenticated context, i.e., if there is no prior authentication of non-AR/VR users? Authentication is always a prerequisite for non-trivial authorization. Do non-AR/VR users (such as AR vertigos avoiding nauseating experiences) not have access to secured matrix services or are there different means to prove who you are?
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Dude, Stop. JUST STOP. LISTEN TO ...
Reaver, please calm down a notch ;-)
To SSDR's defense when you posted the citation of "owned property" from SR4 I too thought about owned real-estate. I was not reading it as literally everything you own, like pants, watches, plants, mirrors, computers etc. Going by the literal meaning of the word property (which you provided a few times now) you are of course correct. I don't think this is what we are debating here.
The reason why I think there is still a discussing around the word "property" is because you included a citation from SR4 that mention that owned property is linked to SINs. This citation was never included in SR5 (nor SR6). There is no mentioning of the word property in relation to SIN in SR5. So no matter what the original intent was in SR4, in SR5+ SIN does not seem to be required in order to buy things. There does not seem to be a hard link between ownership and SIN (anymore). If your SIN is burned your (now) get to keep items that you bought. The exception here are licenses and bank accounts from respected financial institutes. They are tightly connected to one of your SINs and if that specific SIN is burned then so are you licenses and bank accounts associated with that specific SIN.
What IS the point, is how that OWNERSHIP is tracked.
If I (or rather my representation in the matrix, my matrix persona) in 5th edition have matrix ownership of a matrix icon (equivalent of 4 marks) that belong to a physical object (a device icon) then I can choose to legally transfer my ownership from my matrix persona to you and your matrix persona. This process take about one minute. The original author have confirmed that this have to be while both you and the device is online. It seem to involve registering the new owner of the device in a series of secure online databases.
It seem as if I can transfer matrix ownership to you no matter if you have a SIN or not. Having a SIN or not does not seem to be part of the ownership equation. At all.
The majority of people in SR do their shopping online. (you can see that in just about every write up about the matrix, or buying stuff.) Heck, even today, online shopping is outpacing store shopping.
BUT, from what you are saying, this is impossible! As there is no "Tracking" in the matrix... No logging... nothing to follow, nothing to confirm, nothing to verify back to.
Payment:
When you pay with your credit account then it seem as if the transaction is logged, confirmed and validated by the bank where you have your credit account. The data trail seem to lead back to you and the SIN you originally used when you applied for the bank account. In a sense there is a financial record that link the product back to your SIN, however, matrix ownership of the device you bought is not linked to the SIN your bank account is connected to. Once you bought the device you can choose to transfer ownership to someone else without leaving a financial data trail that is connected to your or the recipients SIN. All the logs will show is that at one point you used your bank account to successfully buy the item. Nothing more. Nothing less.
When you pay with a certified credstick then the transaction seem to still be logged, confirmed and validated by the bank that certified the credstick. But the data trail instead leads back to the certified credstick that was used in the transaction rather than a bank account connected to a specific SIN. It seem as if a certified credstick belong to whoever is in possession of it. Credsticks does not seem to have any legit matrix owner. If I choose to give the physical credstick to someone else (or someone physically steal the certified credstick) then there does not seem to be anything stopping him from transferring founds to or from the credstick or to use it in transactions to buy stuff with it. There is nothing linking transactions made with a the credstick back to me. All the logs will show is that at one point someone used a credstick to successfully buy an item. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Ownership:
Once the financial transaction (either with a bank account or a certified credstick) is approved by the bank (or if the previous owner decide to just gift you the item without payment or perhaps you traded goods or services for the item) the previous owner will file a motion to transfer ownership over to you. This seem to be a process that take about one minute. Once ownership transfer is complete it seem as if you you will be considered the new legit owner of whatever you bought. As its new matrix owner you can automatically spot it and you can also trace its physical location.
An alternative is that you illegally try to transfer ownership of the thing from its previous owner. This seem to require that you are physically in possession of the item and that both you and the item are connected to the matrix for a lengthy period of time. Once ownership transfer is complete you will be considered the new legit owner.
It does not seem as if you need to be a legit citizen in order to be considered the owner of a wireless device. There does not seem to be any requirement that you have a SIN (legit or otherwise) here, but it does seem as if you need to be connected to the matrix in order to become the new matrix owner of the device.
How does the cop that pulls you over for Speeding in downtown core, verify:
1: that you are allowed to drive?
Cop can check that you have a general driver's license attached to the SIN that your matrix persona is currently broadcasting (note that example characters in SR5 doesn't have driver's licences on their fake SINs but example characters in SR6 do). Cop can also run your SIN through his SIN validation unit to validate that you are are a legit citizen (not using a fake SIN).
Cop can also verify this remotely over the matrix even before he decides to pull you over (and depending on what type of security zone you are driving around in, not broadcasting a SIN at all might be a sure red flag for the cop to pull you over).
2: that you actually own ... the car?
Actual ownership of a device seem to be handled by a registration that is maintained in multiple and redundant databases across the Matrix (separate from personas and SINs).
In 5th edition it is also not even mechanically possible for anyone but the real owner to instruct the car's auto pilot (a hacker could perhaps try to spoof commands to the car's auto pilot, but only while they have a mark on the car's legit matrix owner).
It is also not mechanically possible for anyone to remote control the car unless they are the car's owner of if the car's owner have invited them to place 3 marks on the car (a hacker can temporarily remote control the car if he tricked or forced 3 of their marks onto the car's device icon, but in 5th edition it typically take GOD just an hour or so to converge on a hacker that have not rebooted yet).
Grand Theft Auto doesn't seem to be as easy as it perhaps used to be back in 2022.
See, THIS makes sense.
The SIN contains your Biometrics already. So when you want to purchase something online, Your Persona wonders up to the item and hits the Buy button. Which in turn triggers a challenge/response from the Persona, <Please confirm biometrics to complete purchase> So you jab your thumb on the reader, which tracks back to your SIN and accounts. IF the biometrics match the SIN (and why wouldn't it... you're not a criminal... ARE YOU?!!), the SIN unlocks the bank account, money is taken out of the account (through the Persona's actions), and the item is registered to you.
This might make sense from a 2022 security engineer point of view. But if you rule it like this, then how do you explain that it would work if the bank account is linked to a fake SIN (as fake SINs doesn't have copies of its owner's biometrics on file).
We are back to Gattaca where criminality and impersonation is rendered almost impossible and leaving a single hair at the wrong place will immediately will give you away.
NOT a very good setting for a game where players are supposed to be able to act outside the law, saying within the shadows.
...
(Before we start to compare apples and oranges note that me and I think Reaver as well are discussing how it used to work in SR5 while Banshee is talking about how the matrix works now in SR6).
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(Before we start to compare apples and oranges note that me and I think Reaver as well are discussing how it used to work in SR5 while Banshee is talking about how the matrix works now in SR6).
I know. Reliable attribution of matrix-related privileges seems to be a persistent issue across editions.
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On the topic of biometric locks on a commlink:
They don't do anything more than what biometric locks do on a gun. Biometric locks on a commlink make it so that someone else cannot use your commlink to access the matrix.
When an online financial transaction requires a SIN verification, it can't just query the persona because SIN data is not tied to your persona. It's as simple as that.
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There is no mentioning of the word property in relation to SIN in SR5. So no matter what the original intent was in SR4, in SR5+ SIN does not seem to be required in order to buy things. There does not seem to be a hard link between ownership and SIN (anymore). If your SIN is burned your (now) get to keep items that you bought. The exception here are licenses and bank accounts from respected financial institutes. They are tightly connected to one of your SINs and if that specific SIN is burned then so are you licenses and bank accounts associated with that specific SIN.
Given your thorough and extensive knowledge of the rules, I have no doubt that this is RAW.
But it doesn't really make any sense. It should be trivial to link a SIN with a persona and this link would make crime fighting so much easier. It's like deliberately separating someone's national security number from his fingerprints.
Basically we're asked to forego common sense just to make the rules work.
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But it doesn't really make any sense. It should be trivial to link a SIN with a persona and this link would make crime fighting so much easier. It's like deliberately separating someone's national security number from his fingerprints.
Basically we're asked to forego common sense just to make the rules work.
We're not being asked to forgo common sense. We're being asked to accept that, given the aftermath of a global comms catastrophe the powers that be decided to employ a network that they couldn't fully control, much less fully understand...but was on-hand at the time and ready to be exploited. Choosing to do so when it's NOT an emergency might be a bit of suspension of disbelief... but during an emergency? Less so, for sure. A decade or two in, they're so fully in that bed it's not cost effective to perform yet another clean slate and start over with yet another matrix where you CAN link SINs to Personas.
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SINs are issued by many entities, corps, governments, ect. None of them want to share data with each other. Even internal sharing of sensitive data is tightly controlled. Do you think a Megacorp wants it's rent-a-cops to have access to the CEO's Biometric data? No.
And nobody fights crime. Nobody actually cares who did what. Lone Star and the rest are paid to keep the status quo. If some justice gets done along the way, that's fine as long as it didn't cost anything.
The SIN registry is just there to validate, "Yes, that SIN is a valid SIN." that's it. Because that's all the corps could agree on.
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A SIN in itself is just 12 alpha-numeric characters that hold information like name, birthdate, birthplace, gender and metatype. Sharing a SIN doesn't share biometric data, in fact nearly everyone does so through the Global SIN Registry.
I agree that corps don't necessarily share biometric data associated to a SIN with each other - at least not those of their stand-up citizens. And maybe nobody cares about fighting crime, but I'm sure as hell that a corp would want to know when a SIN associated to the persona of notorious Shadowrunner is spotted lurking in the proximity of one of their top secret labs.
We're not being asked to forgo common sense. We're being asked to accept that, given the aftermath of a global comms catastrophe the powers that be decided to employ a network that they couldn't fully control, much less fully understand...but was on-hand at the time and ready to be exploited. Choosing to do so when it's NOT an emergency might be a bit of suspension of disbelief... but during an emergency? Less so, for sure. A decade or two in, they're so fully in that bed it's not cost effective to perform yet another clean slate and start over with yet another matrix where you CAN link SINs to Personas.
I'll try my best to amp up my suspension of disbelief to max.
In summary:
- An individual's persona is unique
- You can't change your persona
- Nobody fully controls or understand the matrix. Suffice to say that it allows certain interactions and will fight any non-conformant activity like an immune system reacting to an interloper.
- The matrix is able to link non-conformant matrix activities with your persona. But only so until you reboot.
- Your persona has certain access rights in the matrix (ownership, whatever). They are either granted to you in a way that the matrix likes and will remember in between reboots. Or they are forged in a way that the matrix doesn't like and will forget after a reboot.
- Apart from the cases mentioned above, nobody and nothing is able to persist any data related to a persona that would allow them to identify that persona in the future
Do I miss something?
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It should be trivial to link a SIN with a persona and this link would make crime fighting so much easier.
I see SIN as the equivalent of having a green card. Proof that you are a legit citizen.
And I see matrix persona as the equivalent of your combined steam+facebook+microsoft+google account. Your internet identity.
You have persons who lives in a country without having official permission to live there using the internet in 2022.
You have SINless people using the matrix in 2082.
Same thing really.
Your persona has certain access rights in the matrix (ownership, whatever). They are either granted to you in a way that the matrix likes and will remember in between reboots. Or they are forged in a way that the matrix doesn't like and will forget after a reboot.
This is perhaps not so different from how authentication (and authorization) worked back in 2022.
When you accessed a resource, web page, etc (or accessing the matrix) you typically showed your credentials to a third party token provider. A federation gateway of sorts that both the client and the server was trusting (such as keycloak). You are given a token. Instead of providing your credentials every time you click on a link you instead use and reuse the same token for all API calls you make (think single sign on). On the server side they never really saw your username and password. They just saw your token. And they asked the federation gateway if the token was legit or not. They could track all the calls you do with this token, but once you log out (or the token expire) and again wanted to access (when you reboot your matrix persona) you would again have to show your credentials - and even though you were still using the same internet user (matrix persona), the token you would receive the second time would be a different token than the last time you accessed the same resource.
I am not suggesting that the matrix is using OAuth2.0, but it could perhaps serve as en example to better understand why it is not completely impossible that you would start out fresh each time you access the matrix.
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That analogy is a bit far fetched if I may.
The token in the OAuth flow is a way to grant authorization to a third party app without communicating your login/password. It doesn't mean there is no way to link suspect activity tied to that token with the corresponding resource owner.
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Overwatch score could be seen as the abstraction of the act of keeping track of suspect activity tied to that specific "token" or the current "signature" that was generated for the persona last time it accessed the matrix. Once OS reach 40 GOD have gathered enough suspicious activity revolving this specific "signature" that it converge on it. From this point this "signature" is "burned" and "monitored" and you can never execute matrix actions using this token. But if the client (the persona, the internet account - the equivalent of the combination of username and password) go offline or reboots before this then the link to this specific "signature" is broken. If the persona access the matrix again then it will do so with a new fresh "signature" that is not linked to any suspect stuff. The resource owner (the host or PAN) is never really directly aware of which specific internet user (username, password, email, phone number, etc) that was performing the hack. Only the specific temporary 3rd party generated signature it had while it was still online.
Yes of course I understand that the analogy is not perfect (and also there is no talk about tokens at all in Shadowrun, nobody will use web tokens 50 years from now), but I still think it should be good enough for you to get an an idea of how it is perhaps not impossible how a persona could be considered white as snow after each reboot as the mechanics seem to dictate.
If you have a better analogy then feel free to use (and perhaps share?) that instead.
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A SIN in itself is just 12 alpha-numeric characters that hold information like name, birthdate, birthplace, gender and metatype. Sharing a SIN doesn't share biometric data, in fact nearly everyone does so through the Global SIN Registry.
I'm not going to argue about whether that was NEVER accurate, but it was not accurate as of 5e at least. Legit SINs (and good/high ranking Fake SINs) in 5e and 6e absolutely include biometric data.
I'll try my best to amp up my suspension of disbelief to max.
In summary:
- An individual's persona is unique
- You can't change your persona
- Nobody fully controls or understand the matrix. Suffice to say that it allows certain interactions and will fight any non-conformant activity like an immune system reacting to an interloper.
- The matrix is able to link non-conformant matrix activities with your persona. But only so until you reboot.
- Your persona has certain access rights in the matrix (ownership, whatever). They are either granted to you in a way that the matrix likes and will remember in between reboots. Or they are forged in a way that the matrix doesn't like and will forget after a reboot.
- Apart from the cases mentioned above, nobody and nothing is able to persist any data related to a persona that would allow them to identify that persona in the future
Do I miss something?
Yes, that's at least 95% what I believe is accurate. The quibbles are:
on point 2, you can change the outward appearances of your persona, but it can only possibly trick people who aren't bothering to do any sort of verification. If I, persona SSDR were to impersonate persona Odsh for the purposes of making persona Xenon think you said whatever I tell them, the way that'd be handled via the rules is by hacking the target I mean to deceive, not the target I mean to impersonate. So I'd hack Xenon to think Xenon is talking to Odsh, rather than hacking Odsh to steal whatever technobabble makes Odsh Odsh.
Exactly the same concept for "using" an employee's work credentials to trick the work host into thinking the employee is entering the host. If I change my persona to 0dsh it might trick Xenon into thinking I'm Odsh if he's not paying close attention, but that sort of fuckery won't work on automated systems like a host. The host has to be hacked, not a persona.
on point 6, that's completely inaccurate due to how it was semantically presented. What would be accurate is to say that "Apart from the cases mentioned above, nobody and nothing is able to persist any data related to a persona that would allow them to correlate that persona with its real world user." Even then, what is truly *possible* isn't necessarily known. Maybe someone can, but if so they're not talking. But what's important is Big Brother can put together a dossier on personas SSDR and Odsh, and where the authorities are willing to share data perhaps even put case files together tracking our various matrix hacks, even when we change up the outward presentations of our personas (see point 2), but unless we literally leave our real world deets behind somehow, these dossiers on persona activity won't tie back to a real life user. Maybe a spider or tracker IC learn we often hack from a given real world address. Maybe that means we live there, but it could also mean we simply habitually go there to hack... contextually it could link to a real life identity but not directly. Likewise providing a SIN during an online purchase is certainly a juicy hint, should Big Brother find that, but technically it doesn't mean that's the persona's SIN. maybe they're buying for someone else... but certainly it's a hint you could be, or at least know, that real life person. Using fake SINs for online purchases may well be nearly as common as using VPNs in the real world, simply for the actual anonymity it affords, even to legal citizens.
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but unless we literally leave our real world deets behind somehow, these dossiers on persona activity won't tie back to a real life user
I really don't mean to come out as being stubborn.
If I was a corp, the first thing I'd do is to force anyone to leave real these world deeds behind.
"You want a SIN? Sure, please log into the matrix through that terminal while we collect some biometric data."
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This is how I imagine corporate security to work in Shadowrun.
Most smaller corps that are not empowered to issue limited corporate SINs themselves probably have a policy to only employ real citizens, so one of the first things they will verify (even on the first interview) would probably be that you have a SIN and that your SIN checks out. That it isn't fake. Depending on the position you are applying for, in addition to a regular SIN validation check they might perhaps also run an extended background check (including manually checking your social media feeds, political activity, crime record etc). Actually getting hired on a fake SIN to a higher security area is probably quite tricky unless your fake alter ego is really well made.
Later, as part of the on-boarding processes, they will probably take your photo (which they will print on your corporate close proximity RFID badge together with your name, employee number, corporate logo and department number) and supposed you are hired to work in a high security area they might perhaps also record a spoken pass-phrase, take your finger prints, scan your retinal signature or collect some other biometrics that they will later use for voice recognition, fingerprint scanner, retinal scanner etc to validate that you are actually you at the check-point to enter said area.
Each morning when you arrive at your work you will typically first pass through the public lobby where the SIN of all visitors and employees alike will be automatically scanned through a rating 3 SIN verification unit. This is to make sure SINless individuals don't enter the public lobby area of the corp. Individuals that are not broadcasting a SIN at all are denied entry to the lobby by hired corporate security. The SIN validation unit operator expect everyone to pass. If a SIN validation fails then that fake SIN will be automatically burned and KE will be automatically called to the scene to arrest the individual for "attempt to use an illegal fake SIN". Hired corporate security will detain the individual until they arrive. The lobby is probably also warded to make sure visitors and employees are not sustaining spells and the frame of the front door itself probably also contain a rating 3 Magnetic Anomaly Detection scanner to make sure visitors and employees are not bring firearms into the public lobby.
As an employee you are expected to wear your corporate badge visible at all times. To get through the lobby, to the elevator that will take you to your actual work environment, you are required to scan your card at the rating 3 card reader of the manned security check point in order for the rating 3 maglock to open and let you in.
21st floor where you work is a high security floor and one of the first things you have to do there before getting in is to walk into an air lock. Inside the air lock you are expected to say the sentence "Hi, My name Odsh. My voice is my passport. Verify me." using your own unique natural voice pattern in order for the rating 3 voice recognition system to open the rating 3 maglock. If you fail the air lock will likely remain locked while hired security guards will be called to the scene in order to resolve the situation.
On the inside you will also likely meet people you work with on a daily basis. They might ask you how you feel. If the weekend was good. etc.
As a social infiltrator of a shadowrun team I decided to impersonate Odsh, a random research engineer of same metatype and sex and roughly the same height and weight as me that have access to the same floor in the high security research area where the expected macguffin is located.
To not trip the MAD scanner I decided to leave my silenced light pistol at home but I still brought my monowhip hidden in one of my fingertip compartments, just in case. Before I enter the lobby I will also make sure I am broadcasting one of my higher rated fake SINs. In addition to validate the checksum of my fake SIN the SIN verification unit in the lobby also validate the consistency of several random pieces of on-line data attached to the fake SIN, but (due to the higher threshold of my higher rated fake SIN) still fail to find any apparent gaps and decides to inform to the SIN verification unit operator that I am indeed a legit citizen.
Next stop is the close proximity RFID scanner. I could have used an illegal skeleton key here (a so called maglock passkey) or hire a decker, but since we probably needed an authentic looking badge in order to fool hired corporate security and Odsh's co-workers anyway we instead decided already two weeks ago to swipe the real badge from Odsh while he was using public transportation on his way to work as normal, ran it through a key card copier and then palmed it back to him before he noticed. We then used forgery to make it look like an authentic corporate badge. As we suspect that some sort of alert might be triggered if it appear as if Odsh arrive to work twice in the same day the rest of the team is tasked at delaying Odsh long enough for the operation to be completed.
Through various legwork activities (matrix search, contact networking, using micro drones to infiltrate, interviewing, etc) my team found out about the voice recognition unit and also the exact pass phrase that is being used. My team had several options here. If I had been an adept with Vocal Control Power or if I had been augmented with Voice Modulator ware then I could perhaps try to mimic the unique voice pattern of Odsh. Or we could have hired a decker to override the security device remotely by hacking the host. Instead we went with the following solution (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zVgWpVXb64).
In order to look like Odsh I decided to use a combination of Prosthetic makeup and bio-sculpting (but had I been an adept then I could have used Cosmetic Control or as a magician I could have used Physical Mask etc) and then rely on my impersonation specialization in order to walk the walk and talk the talk in case I would run into any of Odsh's coworkers.
(edit to fix the url)
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This is how I imagine corporate security to work in Shadowrun...
That's a great example, but what has it to do with Commlinks recognizing a stranger and using their persona?
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My take on the Persona issue.
You have a Persona in the matrix that only you can use, but how to prevent someone from just snatching your Hermes Icon while you are accessing the matrix. Now they can continue where you left off right?
So mecanically this is not possible. This problem has somehow been solved in the future. It is really something we would want to solve already today, but we don't have a solution to how it's done because it's not invented yet!
That aside, lets think out of the box. What factors could play a role to ensuring no one else can hijack your persona:
- Commlink can likely detect if it's dropped, picked up or handed off to another person from the motion sensor.
- Personal Code. Maybe you need to "log in" using codes or patterns at regular intivals to ensure it's you.
- Biometrics.
- Behavior patterns. How long do you pause. How fast do you input data. What typos do you always make.
- Nearby equipment. Does your persona expect you wear that favorite jacket or necklace that is wireless on.
- Location/Timing. Are you physically in the GPS locations you usually frequent or did you go off route?
- Matrix activity. Are you accessing the matrix in ways you usually do, or are you doing something completely new?
- Maybe wirelss cameras in the environment contribute to ensuring it's not someone else holding the commlink
- Are you using your persona from somewhere else at the same time?
- Are you physically handling your commlink like you use to? holding it in the usual angle?
Imagine any of those parameters start to move into "unusual" mode. Then the matrix may prompt additional biometric test and passwords and what not.
I am not saying all this or any of this is really the solution. It's not invented yet, but it's an idea of what could be involved in making sure a persona is not hijacked.
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In the end, it all boils down to authentication. And probably being myself a software engineer and having real life knowledge of this interferes (heavily) with what was imagined for Shadowrun.
What everyone seems to agree on is that the persona is tied to an individual's biometrics - specifically his unique "brainwaves". Because of that, you can't change your persona (in appearance, yes, but not to the point where it is considered to be a different persona) and you can't use someone else's persona. Or at least, nobody has managed to do it yet.
What also seems to be a consensus (is it?) is that you can track and keep a history of a specific persona's activity in the matrix. Or at least, people are able to extract that kind of information from the matrix.
"That persona, on the 28th November last year, breached and hacked an Ares security host."
The matrix itself, however, behaves in a peculiar way when reacting to hacking attempts, since it "forgets" everything about the hacker's persona upon reboot. The explanation here is that "nobody fully understands the matrix". At least, apparently not enough to improve this behaviour.
All that is fine, I can live with that.
However, what is apparently also not possible is to make a link between someone's persona and his real-life identity.
"Sir, we spotted an unauthorized persona that hacked its way into our secured host."
"And?"
"We tracked down his physical location while our intrusion countermeasures rendered him unconscious."
"Very good."
"Our physical response team quickly went to the scene and apprehended him."
"Excellent, good job."
"We have thus identified the perpetrator. He was not carrying any identification, but we found a SIN matching his biometrics."
"Perfect."
"Sir, may I ask you a question."
"Of course, go on."
"We have a full dossier of all known and recorded illegal activities perpetrated by this persona."
"That is correct recruit, that we do."
"And we will continue to record any future such activities."
"I don't see why we wouldn't."
"And we have the SIN and all the biometrics we could want from this hacker."
"Also correct, yes."
"So we can now easily put a name on all these crimes perpetrated by this persona in the past, but also all potential ones in the future. He's forever burned, right?"
"Ho ho ho, don't be silly, nobody has ever been able to do that. You have much to learn, recruit."
Nope, doesn't work for me.
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I am not saying all this or any of this is really the solution. It's not invented yet, but it's an idea of what could be involved in making sure a persona is not hijacked.
Not directly related, but many of the things you mention are very similar to the kind of verifications made through the captcha where you prove that you're not a robot just by clicking on a checkbox. It's not just the mouseclick itself, but many other things and behavioural patterns that are analysed.
https://medium.com/a-dose-of-curiosity/how-does-the-i-am-not-a-robot-checkbox-work-c24d426a82a1
"Google will analyse your behaviour before, during and after clicking the checkbox to determine whether you appear human"