Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Datastream on <11-05-17/0853:48>
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I'm trying to work out why the Sleeping Tiger suit is worth $13,500 and according to a number of sources of information is the go to suit.
I assume the Ruthenium Polymer Coating is the reason, which gives a -2 (Rating 3, +1 as your head is still exposed) to perception tests but I don't quite understand why that makes it worth $10,000 more than every other suit. In addition, if you take the coat to go over it, don't you lose the bonus from the coating? So you can get 16 armor and not be invisible, or you can have 13 armor and the -2 perception check. Is there a utility to the suit that people can advise me on?
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it's an awesome deal because:
1). ruth polymer 3 costs $15k (more than the armor by itself) and has an availability of 16f. Somehow this suit is both cheaper and easier to obtain than the ruthenium coating by itself.
2). No, you cannot wear something over your suit and still take advantage of the ruth coating, duh (you must insert common sense to play tabletop games).
3). dont forget the rules for partial coverage of ruth coating (this suit does not cover your head, hands or feet) on page 86.
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The RP coating is certainly one of the big factors in the cost, yeah. But the reason you get the 'discount' from 15k and 16F availability is because someone decided to manufacture a status symbol. Today's version would be a stylish BMW luxury sedan, or perhaps a Prada purse, or a pair of Christian Louboutin heels, or any other visible status symbol that implies both wealth and more taste than the posers who go for flashy gold chains, diamond-studded Rolexes, and the like. And it is STILL out of reach for most people. That one suit is more than even a High class lifestyle for a month. Middle class types probably wouldn't be able to save up enough for it in an entire year (unless they were dipping into criminal acts). It is like being able to walk past the line at Dante's Inferno. You might not be able to just get reservations in Hell at the snap of your fingers, but everyone can see you're better than the people who are just out dancing for the night.
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It's the best possible starting armor, and it not only makes you less suspicious-looking than FBA, it makes you look like you could theoretically belong at a party.
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Doesn’t quite gel with the description in SR4’s Arsenal which describes it as out moded “corporate street tough” look... but maybe by 5th Ed they’ve rebranded!?! Ah yes, just reread the description in R&G... for that price I don’t see why it couldn’t come with a hood to complete the chameleon outline??
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Because a hood doesn't fit the corporate look. The Sleeping Tiger isn't really about stealth, any more than a Luxury SUV is about off-roading. It is basically 'entry level exclusive', too expensive for 'normal people' to get, but too basic for the creme de la creme to wear.
I expect the RP gets more work changing color schemes (all black, pinstripes, etc.) than going with stealth, honestly.
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Would make it slightly less über! From a game rather than RP perspective, I’m happy enough with that, never did much like the ‘best piece of gear’ thing, there should be pros and cons! Now I need to go and fix my char generator :P
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Soooo....
Does it actually look like a suit?
I've had a fair bit of trouble visualising it - especially taking into account the description in the canon companion (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=20973.msg376450#msg376450 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=20973.msg376450#msg376450))...
(Yes, I get that Vashon have refreshed the line - just can't quite picture it)
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Would make it slightly less über! From a game rather than RP perspective, I’m happy enough with that, never did much like the ‘best piece of gear’ thing, there should be pros and cons! Now I need to go and fix my char generator :P
I agree with this. Personally, I think that high-fashion armor should rarely go over armor 9, and even the most expensive discreet suits should not go higher than 12. Also, a custom-fitted fashion-statement which costs more than some cars should be easily traced with basic detective-work. With all the details that the good guys could squeeze from the tailor, you might as well have left behind a card with your (fake) SIN on it.
Having fashion-armor with a higher rating than the same armor rating as FBA just annihilates any sense that there's balance or a trade-off.
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Soooo....
Does it actually look like a suit?
I've had a fair bit of trouble visualising it - especially taking into account the description in the canon companion (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=20973.msg376450#msg376450 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=20973.msg376450#msg376450))...
(Yes, I get that Vashon have refreshed the line - just can't quite picture it)
I've seen this point debated. Some people say that it does, because it's under the High Fashion category. Others say that not all High Fashion is suits, so no. I personally run with it as an entire ensemble. Basically, by this point in the Shadowrun Timeline, Shadowrunners have been used in media/movies as the go-to action heroes, protagonists, and I'm sure antagonists. For a regular, every day person, dressing like a Shadowrunner is copying the look that've become iconic in the movies, and that's precisely what the Sleeping Tiger is. It's that Iconic Shadowrunner look, all spruced up so you can look like a million nuyen no matter the occasion and still keep that super cool air of mystery that the Shadowrunner look brings.
This basically makes it an outfit that's as comfortable in a high class night club as it is out on the streets. You could even make an argument for it being right at home in a fancy restaurant or similar situations. It's expensive, it's custom, and it's designed to look like the coolest action heroes on the Trideo screen.
Also, I'm super glad someone pointed it out already: RPC also works as Electrochromatic, making it so you can change the color/pattern of the outfit on a whim. While the stealth capabilities are nice (and a -2 to all Perception tests to see you isn't something to be dismissed when the average joe has 3-4 dice to spot you), the ability to change its color scheme/pattern to whatever's trending is the ultimate show stopper for this slick number.
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Also, I'm super glad someone pointed it out already: RPC also works as Electrochromatic, making it so you can change the color/pattern of the outfit on a whim. While the stealth capabilities are nice (and a -2 to all Perception tests to see you isn't something to be dismissed when the average joe has 3-4 dice to spot you), the ability to change its color scheme/pattern to whatever's trending is the ultimate show stopper for this slick number.
Shouldn't that be -4 to perception?? I admit the wording in R&G on ruthenium isn't that clear but it says -Rating (3 in the case of ST) +2 full, +1 mostly full, +0 half...since it makes no sense for the perception mod to get worse if you are completely covered in the stuff...
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Correct, Aria.
IIRC FAQ and/or errata clarrified this
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The real question is: how does the Sleeping Tiger sell for 13.5k when older versions were literally designed to look like garbage and the Executive Suite provides nearly as much high-class protection for a paltry 2k? Seriously, it's an armored jacket you can wear to a dinner party. The answer probably has something to do with conspicuous consumption, but I never quite fully understood that way of thinking anyways.
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Older versions didn't have the camo ability.
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The real question is: how does the Sleeping Tiger sell for 13.5k when older versions were literally designed to look like garbage and the Executive Suite provides nearly as much high-class protection for a paltry 2k? Seriously, it's an armored jacket you can wear to a dinner party. The answer probably has something to do with conspicuous consumption, but I never quite fully understood that way of thinking anyways.
What kind of dinner party is letting in someone dressed in sleeping tiger? I always saw it as the kind of thing one could plausibly wear to like, a rowdy club or maybe some galas, not a formal high-class social setting.
Also, remember that the sleeping tiger outfit shadowrunners love is actually a specific combination of 'Sleeping Tiger', 'Synergist Business Line Longcoat', and 'Custom Ballistic Mask'. That gives armor rating 13(+5) and the theoretical chance to not instantly get thrown out of a club for a total of ¥16,100.
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So it looks like John Wicks bullet proof suit?
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The Vashon Island Sleeping Tiger (¥13,500) suit gives you Armor 13, Capacity 10 for mods, and has the Holster, Newest Model, Ruthenium Polymer Coating (3) features..
On the other hand, you could get a Zoé Executive Suite (¥2,000) for Armor 12, Capacity 4, and Newest Model feature, it also increases your Social Limit by 1. Pair this with a Ruthenium Polymer Cloak (2). You're only spending ¥10,000 total. Sure, the concealment isn't quite as good, but you can stuff the cloak in a fanny pack or ball it up in a briefcase. Additionally, it can work with any armor you own, so if you've got a set of Security Armor in storage that you only bust out when you know the `run is going to be a shock-and-awe pink mohawk event, you can still be invisible(ish). I've also used it in a lot of other creative ways in the past my favoritve being the time I fast talked way into a secure office building, met the wage-slave I was sent to extract, fast talked her into coming with me, had her put on the cloak, and just walked right back out. Entire `run lasted about 15 minutes "in universe" and about four minutes in real time.
If you want to spend ¥14,000 total you can get a Ruthenium Polymer Cloak (3) to go with the Executive Suite, matching the Sleeping Tiger's stealth capability and only giving up a pip of Armor.
I prefer the Zoé. You can grab the Zoé Executive Suite at CharGen, then wait a run or two and pick up a Rating 3 or 4 Cloak. 14F should be within the reach of any good Fixer or Black Market Contact(s) you have.
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It's been a while, but I think Zoé owns the Second Skin so that can combine with the ES?
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It's been a while, but I think Zoé owns the Second Skin so that can combine with the ES?
Yes, but as the form-fitting Second Skin is worn under the Executive Suite, you’d need to take off the outer layer to get any benefit from the Second Skin’s ruthenium polymer... Still a decent boost to your Armor rating however.
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*plays Ke$ha's 'Take It Off'*
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Nah, if you’re going to give Mr. Johnson the full monty, there’s only one song: You Can Leave You Hat On (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jOotsq4soug).
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I like how after all this time, no one disagrees with me that the older versions look literally like garbage, with the implication that current version do too. I feel so validated.
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Not sure if there are rules for it, but a RPC good enough to make you invisible should also be good enough to appear as any other clothing, at least from a distance. You might need to hack it and preprogram it with several images, but that way a Sleeping Tiger could allow you to mimick most other cloths and uniforms and to change between them dynamically as long as you have data for it on your PAN.
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It's made of latex, PVC and/or vinyl. You can mimic the color of other clothing with RPC, but you're never going to fix that texture and the noise it makes when it rubs against itself.
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I like how after all this time, no one disagrees with me that the older versions look literally like garbage, with the implication that current version do too. I feel so validated.
To be fair, I mostly had this pegged as a research fail in terms of previous editions gear fluff (see also: the Aguilar helicopter losing its much-touted stealthy electric turbine, to the point where someone points out how noisy it is when you;re in one, the GMC Riverine losing its much-touted water jet impeller drive, being described as having regular props, and a half dozen other minor quirks)
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I like how after all this time, no one disagrees with me that the older versions look literally like garbage, with the implication that current version do too. I feel so validated.
It looks like garbage to you, to the people living in 2080, not so much. Fashion trends are weird and we’ve seen them change in the Sixth World between the 2050s and 2080s...
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You misunderstand me. When I say that the Sleeping Tiger looks like garbage, I don't mean that it looks bad, I mean that it literally has the appearance of industrial trash. Just read the description of it:
(http://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1424729094759.jpg)
Might the new versions of Sleeping Tiger look a bit different? Maybe. But I'd still think that it's something that makes you look like a Redmond pimp.
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You can control the colors, so if you want to, you can easily look like that yes.
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RPC only changes the outside in relation to the background (i.e. predator mode) it does not permit you to alter it on purpose to reflect imagined clothing.
Strictly speaking you would need the Electrochromic armor mod to do that.
Also that RPC cape is going to be pretty shit compared to a full suit of RPC, especially while your moving (and the cape is just flowing behind you and not hiding jack shit).
Check the rules in r&g for coverage of RPC and how it affects utility of same.
TL:DR nothing beats Sleeping Tiger for cost effectiveness if you want functional RPC in a casual suit. If you want change your suit's appearance to mimic other clothing you will need Electrochromic mod.
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"The new incarnation builds from the foundation created by the old with an upgraded color-change system and even an adaptive camouflage feature for the right price."
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Right, isn't that the RPC mod description?
Electrochromic is the mod you need to change to specific patterns you define.
Either it's not present on the suit (it's not mentioned anywhere I can see) or the feature was not included in the crunch by mistake.
Which do you think it is?
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RPC only changes the outside in relation to the background (i.e. predator mode) it does not permit you to alter it on purpose to reflect imagined clothing.
Strictly speaking you would need the Electrochromic armor mod to do that.
If RPC can change colors quickly enough, and in such a variety of colors, to function as Predator camo, then it's hardware can do anything electrochromic clothing can do, if you have the correct software to go with it.
Also that RPC cape is going to be pretty shit compared to a full suit of RPC, especially while your moving (and the cape is just flowing behind you and not hiding jack shit).
Think less cape and more military poncho.
Right, isn't that the RPC mod description?
That is the description of the Sleeping Tiger itself. So we know that the Sleeping Tiger can do Predator camo AND the basic functions of electrochromic clothing.
Either it's not present on the suit (it's not mentioned anywhere I can see) or the feature was not included in the crunch by mistake.
Which do you think it is?
I think that RPC is electrochromic clothing plus, and the crunch wasn't clear enough in spelling that out.
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while RPC may be capable with the correct software it's not part of RPC.
There is a specific mod for that, it's called Electrochromic.
So this would indicate you need that mod and that RPC does not do that (it's not mentioned in the RPC description).
There are many examples like this in the tech world (well it could do that in theory but in practice it's not designed to/ cannot do that).
Regarding RPC cape, it's clearly described as a cape, not a poncho. So that's just your imagination.
The description quoted is jackpoint text, not crunch nor description of the armor itself but rather opinions that are not actually rules nor cannon.
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There are many examples like this in the tech world (well it could do that in theory but in practice it's not designed to/ cannot do that).
But I could make it do that.
Regarding RPC cape, it's clearly described as a cape, not a poncho. So that's just your imagination.
You must be thinking of a very different item:
RUTHENIUM POLYMER CLOAK
A hooded cloak infused with ruthenium polymer fibers. Originally developed for military snipers and spotters who needed to remain concealed and stationary for an extended period of time. The sensor suite that replicates the surroundings has difficulty adapting to the rippling of the cloak while the wearer is in motion. Because of this, the cloak is not as effective while moving as RP modified armor, but it is still fully effective standing still. These cloaks are also sometimes used to conceal small, strategically important objects. Availability 14F, Rating 1 - 4, 4,000¥ per rating. The base modifier to a Perception Test to spot the wearer is –(Rating + 2) while stationary and –(Rating – 1) while moving. (That is right, a Rating 1 RP cloak offers no benefit while moving. You just look like you are wearing a poncho made of static. Which may be fashionable in some places, as there is no accounting for Sixth World taste.) An RP cloak has no capacity for any additional armor modifications.
The description quoted is jackpoint text, not crunch nor description of the armor itself but rather opinions that are not actually rules nor cannon.
"The Sleeping Tiger looks terrible" is an opinion. "The Sleeping Tiger has an upgraded color change system and an available camo feature" is an objective fact.
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thanks for the cloak text ;-)
ok so then:
can RPC work like electrochromic: no
can RPC cloak work while not moving: yes
does sleeping tiger include electrochromic: no (waiting on reference that opposes this)
So far my comments stand, with the adjustment that the cloak is more like a poncho but still only works when you're not moving per my original post.
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The description of the Sleeping Tiger says it has a color change system - a superior system to that found on older versions. Either it has eletrochromic, or RPC is electrochromic plus.
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You misunderstand me. When I say that the Sleeping Tiger looks like garbage, I don't mean that it looks bad, I mean that it literally has the appearance of industrial trash. Just read the description of it:
(http://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1424729094759.jpg)
Might the new versions of Sleeping Tiger look a bit different? Maybe. But I'd still think that it's something that makes you look like a Redmond pimp.
Funny, for some that you say “literally has the appearance of industrial trash[,]” the description you include doesn’t say anything about it looking like industrial trash: figuratively or literally. It’s a blend of boardroom chic and post-punk fashion... Sounds like something Madonna or Joan Jett might have worn back in the Golden Age of MTV. So, a bit out-there by real world 2019 standards, but quite fashionable in the fictional Sixth World.
Also that RPC cape is going to be pretty shit compared to a full suit of RPC, especially while your moving (and the cape is just flowing behind you and not hiding jack shit).
The base modifier to a Perception Test to spot the wearer of a Ruthenium Polymer Cloak is –(Rating + 2) while stationary and –(Rating - 1) while moving. Maximum rating for the Cloak is four... Given the cost difference between the Sleeping Tiger and the Executive Suite/Cloak combo is minimal, I still prefer the pairing.
Yes, you’re at a slight disadvantage when moving, but there’s ways to mitigate that such as, y’know, not moving! Or at doing so stealthily anyway. If hiding behind a wall is good, then hiding behind a wall whilst 95% invisible is even better!
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Funny, for some that you say “literally has the appearance of industrial trash[,]” the description you include doesn’t say anything about it looking like industrial trash: figuratively or literally. It’s a blend of boardroom chic and post-punk fashion... Sounds like something Madonna or Joan Jett might have worn back in the Golden Age of MTV. So, a bit out-there by real world 2019 standards, but quite fashionable in the fictional Sixth World.
Maybe you see wire mesh and chainlink fencing as fashionable material choices. Maybe when you look at a PVC suit, the shine, texture and wrinkles in the PVC don't ever so slightly remind you of garbage bags. But at the end of the day, the Sleeping Tiger was made to invoke the look of SINless orks and trolls who have to wear garbage because they're so poor. So on some level, it must look like garbage. Fancy, expensive garbage that looks better than it should, but garbage none the less.
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Great. Now I'm never going to NOT see Mugatu's Derelicte line whenever someone says their character wears Sleeping Tiger.
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(http://fashionreverie.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Downloads356.jpg)
Designer: Junya Watanabe
(http://fashionreverie.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Downloads352.jpg[/inf]
[b]Designer:[/b] Donatella Versacé
[img]https://assets.vogue.com/photos/58ba8328dd3ad5603a6deacb/master/pass/_JUN0257.jpg)
Designer: Junya Watanabe
(https://assets.vogue.com/photos/58ba83fb3bbebb17ef1a4e85/master/pass/_JUN0439.jpg)
Designer: Junya Watanabe
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/cf15d29c2a053d6ba4a70bc18262cff0602cf870/c=292-0-3356-5472/local/-/media/2016/10/04/USATODAY/USATODAY/636111757796491636-AFP-AFP-GS6KI.jpg?width=580&height=1031&fit=crop)
Designer: Chanel
(https://www.teampeterstigter.com/uploads/2013/02/VERSACE_WCFF13_0067.jpg)
Designer: Donatella Versacé
The fashion industry can (and frequently has) co-opted looks developed by the poor, the dispossessed, and other subcultures and turned it into haute couture. Between 2010’s there actually has been a small fad amongst haute couture designers for a look inspired by the early Punk Rock scene. All of the above pictures are from runway shows between 2012 and 2017. (Afro Futurism and Neo Primitivism seem to be the hot styles now.)
So, yes, I can look as disparate materials like leather, silk, PVC, and wool all being part of the same garment; accessories made of wire, iron, brass, and plastic; with odd angles and strange cuts... and see it as high fashion. God knows that I’d never dress like this (I’ve got a Saville Row soul and a Men’s Warehouse budget), but I’m not trying to impress the people who run the 2080’s Best Dressed List.
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Would make it slightly less über! From a game rather than RP perspective, I’m happy enough with that, never did much like the ‘best piece of gear’ thing, there should be pros and cons! Now I need to go and fix my char generator :P
I agree with this. Personally, I think that high-fashion armor should rarely go over armor 9, and even the most expensive discreet suits should not go higher than 12. Also, a custom-fitted fashion-statement which costs more than some cars should be easily traced with basic detective-work. With all the details that the good guys could squeeze from the tailor, you might as well have left behind a card with your (fake) SIN on it.
Having fashion-armor with a higher rating than the same armor rating as FBA just annihilates any sense that there's balance or a trade-off.
..Sleeping Tiger has an armour value of 13, FBA (without the helmet and it would be silly not to have a helmet as it costs only 500¥ more) has an armour value of 15/18 with the helmet. It also has a higher capacity: (ST only has 10 whereas FBA has 15), and has the option of full chemseal to protect in hostile environments. FBA will also allow you to add complete head to toe RP coating (-4 to perception pools), and even accept the YNT Softweave modification to increase capacity (at a much lower cost than Sleeping Tiger).
So there is still a big incentive for getting FBA when you have the funds and contact who can get it for you at cost.
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...since Vashon also makes the Synergist Longocoat one could pair that with Sleeping Tiger for a total Armour of 16 although you would lose the RP advantage unless you ditched the overcoat (or got RP 3 for it as well). Not a bad way to armour up though without looking like a threat.
In previous editions, Form Fitting armour could be worn under any other armour and offered a bit more protection, however that quality has been removed. Now it's just intended to be worn under regular clothing, though still helpful if having to wear something, like a custodian's jumpsuit, to infiltrate a facility.
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You wear the Longcoat in combat, then take it off when it becomes time to make a run for it. Works for me.
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I've always felt that the Sleeping Tiger's Capacity was dramatically out of line compared to other armors in the same "tactical businesswear" category.
The Armante Suit or the Armante Dress is Armor 8 / Capacity 4; the various Mortimer of London (non-coat) suits and dresses have an average Armor 8 / Capacity 5; the various Vashon Island Ace of Whatever suits have an average Armor 7 / Capacity 7; Vashon Island's Synergist Business Suit is Armor 9 / Capacity 5; Zoé's Executive Suite is Armor 12 / Capacity 4; Actioneer Business Clothes are Armor 8 / Capacity 8; and the Sleeping Tiger is Armor 13 / Capacity 10!
I mean, I get that the more expensive a piece of gear is, the better it should be... But 10 Capacity plus Ruthenium Polymer Coating (Rating 3) and a holster built-in just seems outrageous. I mean, pretty much the only thing that Second Skin (Armor 6 / Capacity 2) has going for it is the Ruthenium Polymer Coating (Rating 4) and it's a mere ¥1,500 cheaper than the easier to obtain Sleeping Tiger!
If it were up to me (and it isn't) I'd reduce the Sleeping Tiger's Ruthenium Polymer Coating to Rating 1 or 2, slash the Capacity in half, and bump the availability to 14.
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Don't forget the Ruthenium is less useful when it doesn't cover the full body.
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Don't forget the Ruthenium is less useful when it doesn't cover the full body.
Which would be more useable at the table if Shadowrun had rules that told us what portions of the body any given set of armor covered. We have to make assumptions that Armor X covers so much and Armor Y covers so much, and we might get lucky and has a snippet of fluff for Armor Z that says it doesn’t cover your legs... But there’s nothing codified. You’d think in a game with as many charts and tables as Shadowrun they could squeeze in one more column that says: “Head, Torso, Arms” or “Torso, Legs” or “Head” or whatever.
They found room for 105 words in the core rulebook on how to tread water, but couldn’t tell us what parts of the body are officially covered by the various types of body armor that are available... and then they gave us a supplemental rulebook that has a half dozen pages devoted to shooting people in very specific locations. If I have rules for shooting someone in the throat, I need to know if their armor covers their throat. I don’t need advanced mathematics for how to tread water... The Blue Planet RPG didn’t have rules for swimming that were this detailed and it took place on a planet that had no dry land, Shadowrun mostly takes place in dystopic urban ghettos, seedy punk bars, and corporate skyscrapers.
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I don't see that anywhere in R&G.
I only see a jackpoint entry (jackpoint entry's are not useful for game mechanics as they conflict with each other and represent gossip or opinion).
Please quote the text you believe exists in R&G, because if it's there I'd like to generate errata for this omission.
thanks
The description of the Sleeping Tiger says it has a color change system - a superior system to that found on older versions. Either it has eletrochromic, or RPC is electrochromic plus.
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It's mostly pretty clear imho.
Folks know what a jacket cover vs. a suit vs. full body armor with helmet.
Where is the confusion?
Cause if there is some I'd like to generate errata to fix it.
Don't forget the Ruthenium is less useful when it doesn't cover the full body.
Which would be more useable at the table if Shadowrun had rules that told us what portions of the body any given set of armor covered. We have to make assumptions that Armor X covers so much and Armor Y covers so much, and we might get lucky and has a snippet of fluff for Armor Z that says it doesn’t cover your legs... But there’s nothing codified. You’d think in a game with as many charts and tables as Shadowrun they could squeeze in one more column that says: “Head, Torso, Arms” or “Torso, Legs” or “Head” or whatever.
They found room for 105 words in the core rulebook on how to tread water, but couldn’t tell us what parts of the body are officially covered by the various types of body armor that are available... and then they gave us a supplemental rulebook that has a half dozen pages devoted to shooting people in very specific locations. If I have rules for shooting someone in the throat, I need to know if their armor covers their throat. I don’t need advanced mathematics for how to tread water... The Blue Planet RPG didn’t have rules for swimming that were this detailed and it took place on a planet that had no dry land, Shadowrun mostly takes place in dystopic urban ghettos, seedy punk bars, and corporate skyscrapers.
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It's mostly pretty clear imho.
Folks know what a jacket cover vs. a suit vs. full body armor with helmet.
Where is the confusion?
Cause if there is some I'd like to generate errata to fix it.
Speaking personally, and without direct reference to Sleeping Tiger per se... if you're in a position to affect errata something I'd like to see regarding armor coverage is "what does Securetech Stack with?" or more exactly "what is full-body armor?"
Per the sidebar giving stats for Securetech PPP (R&G, pg 70) "Arms and Legs kits cannot be combined with any full-body armor; Vitals kit cannot be combined with full-body armor, armor vest, or armor jacket."
So can you stack Securetech PPP on armors like Sleeping Tiger because it's not invoked by the rule, or can you NOT stack Securetech PPP on Sleeping Tiger because while it's not the specific armor called full body armor (no hyphen) it IS a full-body armor in a descriptive sense?
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I only see a jackpoint entry (jackpoint entry's are not useful for game mechanics as they conflict with each other and represent gossip or opinion).
I'm sorry, but why shouldn't we trust the Jackpoint commentary in this scenario? No other Jackpoint comments contradict it, and if we think of RPC as electrochromic plus, then neither does any of the written crunch.
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That's a legit point of confusion.
I know that at our table (and in herolab fwiw) "full-body armor" is anything that covers your entire body (ignoring feet, hands and head), not just the Full-Body Armor that has that name.
the key text in the ppp description reads "Arms and Legs kit cannot be combined with any full-body armor; Vitals kit cannot be combined with full-body armor, armor vest or armor jacket"
I've bolded the important word (any). If it was referring only to the specific armor called Full-Body Armor it would not use the word "any".
Additionally it's clear from the rest of the description that PPP is only meant to work on areas of your body that are not already armored from other armor.
It's mostly pretty clear imho.
Folks know what a jacket cover vs. a suit vs. full body armor with helmet.
Where is the confusion?
Cause if there is some I'd like to generate errata to fix it.
Speaking personally, and without direct reference to Sleeping Tiger per se... if you're in a position to affect errata something I'd like to see regarding armor coverage is "what does Securetech Stack with?" or more exactly "what is full-body armor?"
Per the sidebar giving stats for Securetech PPP (R&G, pg 70) "Arms and Legs kits cannot be combined with any full-body armor; Vitals kit cannot be combined with full-body armor, armor vest, or armor jacket."
So can you stack Securetech PPP on armors like Sleeping Tiger because it's not invoked by the rule, or can you NOT stack Securetech PPP on Sleeping Tiger because while it's not the specific armor called full body armor (no hyphen) it IS a full-body armor in a descriptive sense?
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Jackpoint text is never taken to be part of the features of an item unless those features are already mentioned in the product description. The reasons for this should be obvious (jackpoint text is clearly gossip, unreliable, opinion).
If that's all of you've got then the crunch, which is clearly spelled out, stands.
I only see a jackpoint entry (jackpoint entry's are not useful for game mechanics as they conflict with each other and represent gossip or opinion).
I'm sorry, but why shouldn't we trust the Jackpoint commentary in this scenario? No other Jackpoint comments contradict it, and if we think of RPC as electrochromic plus, then neither does any of the written crunch.
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Jackpoint text is never taken to be part of the features of an item unless those features are already mentioned in the product description. The reasons for this should be obvious (jackpoint text is clearly gossip, unreliable, opinion).
"Word on the street is they put a hell of a lot more nuyen into R&D than they will ever earn back from the armor" is gossip. "Wearing anything from Vashon Island's Steampunk line makes you look like a dirty hipster" is an opinion. A broken clock is unreliable, but it's still right twice a day. "Product X has feature Y" is an objective statement. This just ain't it, chief.
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Additionally it's clear from the rest of the description that PPP is only meant to work on areas of your body that are not already armored from other armor.
Right, but it poses the question of what do and don't other armors cover.
For example, do we have any way of knowing if Sleeping Tiger follows the "full-body" template, or does it mimic an armor jacket's protective coverage?
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It's mostly pretty clear imho.
Folks know what a jacket cover vs. a suit vs. full body armor with helmet.
Where is the confusion?
The fact that “folks know” is what is causing the confusion. If Adam “knows” that his FancySmancy Exec-You-Safe suit includes a fashionablly high neru collar like he saw Christian Bale wear in Equilibrium, but Bob “knows” that a FancySmancy Exec-You-Safe suit is “just a sportcoat and slacks” like his mom made him wear to his sister’s bat mitzvah so it doesn’t cover your neck or sternum, and Carol wants her character to have a FancySmancy Exec-You-Safe suit with a skirt instead of slacks but Adam and Bob insist that means it wouldn’t cover her ankles... and then Dianna the GM starts having the bad guys’s sniper take Called Shots.
Using just the Core Rulebook, it was a lot easier for a clever GM to “handwave” this. A Called Shot to the Vitals was a Called Shot to the Vitals, a GM or player could just tailor their description for whatever armor a specific target had on and say you found a weak point. But with the ever expanding stack of Supplements? Look, if Shadowrun’s design team can find room to codify, in painstaking detail, rules for treading water, holding your breath, and which long distance telecom company your character uses... Yeah, I think it’s reasonable to also ask they clarify which of the sixteen specific body locations we have rules for targeting with Called Shots.
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That's exactly what im talking about, you CANNOT and SHOULD NOT take shadowtalk as truth NOR crunch.
End of story.
Jackpoint text is never taken to be part of the features of an item unless those features are already mentioned in the product description. The reasons for this should be obvious (jackpoint text is clearly gossip, unreliable, opinion).
"Word on the street is they put a hell of a lot more nuyen into R&D than they will ever earn back from the armor" is gossip. "Wearing anything from Vashon Island's Steampunk line makes you look like a dirty hipster" is an opinion. A broken clock is unreliable, but it's still right twice a day. "Product X has feature Y" is an objective statement. This just ain't it, chief.
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It's mostly pretty clear imho.
Folks know what a jacket cover vs. a suit vs. full body armor with helmet.
Where is the confusion?
The fact that “folks know” is what is causing the confusion. If Adam “knows” that his FancySmancy Exec-You-Safe suit includes a fashionablly high neru collar like he saw Christian Bale wear in Equilibrium, but Bob “knows” that a FancySmancy Exec-You-Safe suit is “just a sportcoat and slacks” like his mom made him wear to his sister’s bat mitzvah so it doesn’t cover your neck or sternum, and Carol wants her character to have a FancySmancy Exec-You-Safe suit with a skirt instead of slacks but Adam and Bob insist that means it wouldn’t cover her ankles... and then Dianna the GM starts having the bad guys’s sniper take Called Shots.
Using just the Core Rulebook, it was a lot easier for a clever GM to “handwave” this. A Called Shot to the Vitals was a Called Shot to the Vitals, a GM or player could just tailor their description for whatever armor a specific target had on and say you found a weak point. But with the ever expanding stack of Supplements? Look, if Shadowrun’s design team can find room to codify, in painstaking detail, rules for treading water, holding your breath, and which long distance telecom company your character uses... Yeah, I think it’s reasonable to also ask they clarify which of the sixteen specific body locations we have rules for targeting with Called Shots.
None of the location-based called shots let you bypass armor. It's an abstraction (or suspension of belief) but making a called shot (eye) still goes up against the target's full armor value.
So except for a few exceptions, it doesn't matter what the armor covers.
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I've always gone with:
Vest covers torso
Jacket cover arms and torso (but not head, hands or feet)
Duster & Suit cover arms, torso and legs (but not hands or head)
It's mostly pretty clear imho.
Folks know what a jacket cover vs. a suit vs. full body armor with helmet.
Where is the confusion?
Cause if there is some I'd like to generate errata to fix it.
Speaking personally, and without direct reference to Sleeping Tiger per se... if you're in a position to affect errata something I'd like to see regarding armor coverage is "what does Securetech Stack with?" or more exactly "what is full-body armor?"
Per the sidebar giving stats for Securetech PPP (R&G, pg 70) "Arms and Legs kits cannot be combined with any full-body armor; Vitals kit cannot be combined with full-body armor, armor vest, or armor jacket."
So can you stack Securetech PPP on armors like Sleeping Tiger because it's not invoked by the rule, or can you NOT stack Securetech PPP on Sleeping Tiger because while it's not the specific armor called full body armor (no hyphen) it IS a full-body armor in a descriptive sense?
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Kirrnodel is correct.
The only location based info is required for RPC coverage rules in R&G which are pretty obvious imho (see my comment upthread to Stainless).
It's mostly pretty clear imho.
Folks know what a jacket cover vs. a suit vs. full body armor with helmet.
Where is the confusion?
The fact that “folks know” is what is causing the confusion. If Adam “knows” that his FancySmancy Exec-You-Safe suit includes a fashionablly high neru collar like he saw Christian Bale wear in Equilibrium, but Bob “knows” that a FancySmancy Exec-You-Safe suit is “just a sportcoat and slacks” like his mom made him wear to his sister’s bat mitzvah so it doesn’t cover your neck or sternum, and Carol wants her character to have a FancySmancy Exec-You-Safe suit with a skirt instead of slacks but Adam and Bob insist that means it wouldn’t cover her ankles... and then Dianna the GM starts having the bad guys’s sniper take Called Shots.
Using just the Core Rulebook, it was a lot easier for a clever GM to “handwave” this. A Called Shot to the Vitals was a Called Shot to the Vitals, a GM or player could just tailor their description for whatever armor a specific target had on and say you found a weak point. But with the ever expanding stack of Supplements? Look, if Shadowrun’s design team can find room to codify, in painstaking detail, rules for treading water, holding your breath, and which long distance telecom company your character uses... Yeah, I think it’s reasonable to also ask they clarify which of the sixteen specific body locations we have rules for targeting with Called Shots.
None of the location-based called shots let you bypass armor. It's an abstraction (or suspension of belief) but making a called shot (eye) still goes up against the target's full armor value.
So except for a few exceptions, it doesn't matter what the armor covers.
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You wear the Longcoat in combat, then take it off when it becomes time to make a run for it. Works for me.
...same here. Just wear both when on the way to your objective as there always seems to be some gangers who want to mess with you on the way and the last thing you need is to be down a few stun or physical boxes for the meat of the run. Even had meets "rumbled" now and then. For Chicago the mods are Chem Resistance 6 on the coat, Non Conductivity 5 and Flame Resistance 5 on the suit.
Also if a character has a low Body and Strength (like my Decker Violet), Sleeping Tiger offers the best protection that a single armour set offers (which can be bought at chargen) without penalising Agility and Reaction for additional components like helmets, individual arm/leg protection etc.
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all that stuff is irrelevant per my and kirrs posts upthread.
the only relevance (afaik) is how it works with RPC coverage rules.
those seems pretty obvious to me, but i'm open to hearing your issues with it.
It's mostly pretty clear imho.
Folks know what a jacket cover vs. a suit vs. full body armor with helmet.
Where is the confusion?
The fact that “folks know” is what is causing the confusion. If Adam “knows” that his FancySmancy Exec-You-Safe suit includes a fashionablly high neru collar like he saw Christian Bale wear in Equilibrium, but Bob “knows” that a FancySmancy Exec-You-Safe suit is “just a sportcoat and slacks” like his mom made him wear to his sister’s bat mitzvah so it doesn’t cover your neck or sternum, and Carol wants her character to have a FancySmancy Exec-You-Safe suit with a skirt instead of slacks but Adam and Bob insist that means it wouldn’t cover her ankles... and then Dianna the GM starts having the bad guys’s sniper take Called Shots.
Using just the Core Rulebook, it was a lot easier for a clever GM to “handwave” this. A Called Shot to the Vitals was a Called Shot to the Vitals, a GM or player could just tailor their description for whatever armor a specific target had on and say you found a weak point. But with the ever expanding stack of Supplements? Look, if Shadowrun’s design team can find room to codify, in painstaking detail, rules for treading water, holding your breath, and which long distance telecom company your character uses... Yeah, I think it’s reasonable to also ask they clarify which of the sixteen specific body locations we have rules for targeting with Called Shots.
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We have armor types that implicitly cover limited areas (e.g., coats, jackets, gowns), we have armor types that explicitly cover limited areas (e.g., arm guards, helmets), the ruthenium polymer armor mod that explicitly says it doesn’t work for body parts not covered by armor, and a half dozen pages of rules for shooting people in sixteen specific locations on their body...
In a game system that was more abstracted, maybe. But Shadowrun is gonzo with its nitty-gritty granular detail. Suspension of disbelief only carries you so far, if I take the massive penalty to my die roll to shoot someone in the ankle who isn’t wearing armored boots or pants, he shouldn’t get to count his helmet as armor!
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We have armor types that implicitly cover limited areas (e.g., coats, jackets, gowns), we have armor types that explicitly cover limited areas (e.g., arm guards, helmets), the ruthenium polymer armor mod that explicitly says it doesn’t work for body parts not covered by armor, and a half dozen pages of rules for shooting people in sixteen specific locations on their body...
In a game system that was more abstracted, maybe. But Shadowrun is gonzo with its nitty-gritty granular detail. Suspension of disbelief only carries you so far, if I take the massive penalty to my die roll to shoot someone in the ankle who isn’t wearing armored boots or pants, he shouldn’t get to count his helmet as armor!
I was going to write something about how I completely disagree, particularly since Kirrnodel posted the RAW/RAI, HOWEVER, looking back on the called shots in Run & Gun I don't really see a problem with negating armor when using the called shot to a Body location since they have limit DV's associated with them. In the case of "Foot" you can only do 1 damage. So why not? The only problem I see is when your players say "Hey.. if it's -10 to shoot them in the eye why can't I kill them?"
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you make an absolutely fair point, If I was designing the game I think I would take it in that direction myself.
Alas I do not design this game (i'm just on the errata team) and unfortunately it's just not RAW nor RAI.
We have armor types that implicitly cover limited areas (e.g., coats, jackets, gowns), we have armor types that explicitly cover limited areas (e.g., arm guards, helmets), the ruthenium polymer armor mod that explicitly says it doesn’t work for body parts not covered by armor, and a half dozen pages of rules for shooting people in sixteen specific locations on their body...
In a game system that was more abstracted, maybe. But Shadowrun is gonzo with its nitty-gritty granular detail. Suspension of disbelief only carries you so far, if I take the massive penalty to my die roll to shoot someone in the ankle who isn’t wearing armored boots or pants, he shouldn’t get to count his helmet as armor!
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It just feels like half a system to me... I was fine with the abstraction in the core rules, but once R&G implemented one of the most granular shot location systems I’ve seen in three-decades of gaming, well, dagnabbit it just seems like we should have codified armor location info.
If Savage Worlds can do it, then certainly Shadowrun could.
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We have armor types that implicitly cover limited areas (e.g., coats, jackets, gowns), we have armor types that explicitly cover limited areas (e.g., arm guards, helmets), the ruthenium polymer armor mod that explicitly says it doesn’t work for body parts not covered by armor, and a half dozen pages of rules for shooting people in sixteen specific locations on their body...
In a game system that was more abstracted, maybe. But Shadowrun is gonzo with its nitty-gritty granular detail. Suspension of disbelief only carries you so far, if I take the massive penalty to my die roll to shoot someone in the ankle who isn’t wearing armored boots or pants, he shouldn’t get to count his helmet as armor!
I was going to write something about how I completely disagree, particularly since Kirrnodel posted the RAW/RAI, HOWEVER, looking back on the called shots in Run & Gun I don't really see a problem with negating armor when using the called shot to a Body location since they have limit DV's associated with them. In the case of "Foot" you can only do 1 damage. So why not? The only problem I see is when your players say "Hey.. if it's -10 to shoot them in the eye why can't I kill them?"
Because you don't shoot them in the eye. You shoot past it close enough to blind them, iirc.
But yeah, it'd be nice if armors were at least to mention a type: 'Vest'/'Jacket'/'Body'/'Full' (body and can get helmet). Since those features matter for stuff like PPP, RC and CS.
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yea, wasn't impressed with either the advanced combat options or the martial arts of RnG... They basically took an abstract combat system, and then tried to shoe horn in a targeted combat system.... Not an ideal way to go about it.
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Eh, it has upsides for when you really want to make something count without going lethal.
On the other hand, the ability to cost someone >25% of their vehicle cost with a single point of damage if you aim for the engine...
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...ahh but KK can now do a "down the gullet" shot with a capsule round at only a -1 DP penalty on the test (Adept Centreing 7). Who needs DMSO?
She also loves using "Blast out of Hand" to disarm opponents.
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We have armor types that implicitly cover limited areas (e.g., coats, jackets, gowns), we have armor types that explicitly cover limited areas (e.g., arm guards, helmets), the ruthenium polymer armor mod that explicitly says it doesn’t work for body parts not covered by armor, and a half dozen pages of rules for shooting people in sixteen specific locations on their body...
In a game system that was more abstracted, maybe. But Shadowrun is gonzo with its nitty-gritty granular detail. Suspension of disbelief only carries you so far, if I take the massive penalty to my die roll to shoot someone in the ankle who isn’t wearing armored boots or pants, he shouldn’t get to count his helmet as armor!
I was going to write something about how I completely disagree, particularly since Kirrnodel posted the RAW/RAI, HOWEVER, looking back on the called shots in Run & Gun I don't really see a problem with negating armor when using the called shot to a Body location since they have limit DV's associated with them. In the case of "Foot" you can only do 1 damage. So why not? The only problem I see is when your players say "Hey.. if it's -10 to shoot them in the eye why can't I kill them?"
Because you don't shoot them in the eye. You shoot past it close enough to blind them, iirc.
But yeah, it'd be nice if armors were at least to mention a type: 'Vest'/'Jacket'/'Body'/'Full' (body and can get helmet). Since those features matter for stuff like PPP, RC and CS.
My point was .. It's not a hard argument for a player to make that if it is -10 to do that.. then how come you can't just shoot them in the eye and kill them for a similar penalty?
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We have armor types that implicitly cover limited areas (e.g., coats, jackets, gowns), we have armor types that explicitly cover limited areas (e.g., arm guards, helmets), the ruthenium polymer armor mod that explicitly says it doesn’t work for body parts not covered by armor, and a half dozen pages of rules for shooting people in sixteen specific locations on their body...
In a game system that was more abstracted, maybe. But Shadowrun is gonzo with its nitty-gritty granular detail. Suspension of disbelief only carries you so far, if I take the massive penalty to my die roll to shoot someone in the ankle who isn’t wearing armored boots or pants, he shouldn’t get to count his helmet as armor!
I was going to write something about how I completely disagree, particularly since Kirrnodel posted the RAW/RAI, HOWEVER, looking back on the called shots in Run & Gun I don't really see a problem with negating armor when using the called shot to a Body location since they have limit DV's associated with them. In the case of "Foot" you can only do 1 damage. So why not? The only problem I see is when your players say "Hey.. if it's -10 to shoot them in the eye why can't I kill them?"
Because you don't shoot them in the eye. You shoot past it close enough to blind them, iirc.
But yeah, it'd be nice if armors were at least to mention a type: 'Vest'/'Jacket'/'Body'/'Full' (body and can get helmet). Since those features matter for stuff like PPP, RC and CS.
My point was .. It's not a hard argument for a player to make that if it is -10 to do that.. then how come you can't just shoot them in the eye and kill them for a similar penalty?
Because then every PR4+ enemy that catches them by surprise has a 1/3 chance of instakilling the players. Or any PR1 that gets 3 seconds to aim. Their choice.
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That's exactly what im talking about, you CANNOT and SHOULD NOT take shadowtalk as truth NOR crunch.
Are you next going to tell me that the AA-16 isn't easy to maintain? That the Terracotta Arms AM-47 isn't longer than most elves are tall? There is a time and place to be skeptical about Jackpoint commentary, but this isn't it.
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and i could offer opposite examples of why jackpoint text should never be taken as crunch.
it's exactly what it looks like, a bunch of randoms spouting off in an internet chat room...
if it was meant to be crunch it would be in the crunch
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and i could offer opposite examples of why jackpoint text should never be taken as crunch.
it's exactly what it looks like, a bunch of randoms spouting off in an internet chat room...
if it was meant to be crunch it would be in the crunch
I'm with adzling on the canonicity of in-universe chatroom utterances. Sure the GM can decree any such statement as being in-universe true, but it's not for anyone BUT the GM to do.
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I don't think you understand. This is not discussion of next-gen bioware, nor is it someone claiming they found something in the basement of an Aztechnology black site. This is something a wageslave could prove or disprove with a quick matrix search. If we can't trust this one piece of Jackpoint commentary, then we can't trust any Jackpoint articles either. If a Jackpointer could say something so wrong about something they clearly knew absolutely nothing about, or tell such an obvious and petty lie, and have no other Jackpointer call them out on it, then as far as I'm concerned Jackpoint is a big RP circlejerk run and populated by overweight, undersocialized corpkids pretending to be shadowrunners.
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you just now realized that about the jackpoint comments?!?!
that's the best example possible of jackpoint commentary!
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So if we can't trust anything on Jackpoint, why is almost everything in the setting, from gear to metaplot, given in Jackpoint articles and commentary? I can't even ask a question as simple as "is this car a sedan or a coupe" without it coming down to GM ruling because hurr durr, you can't trust everything you read on Jackpoint.
Personal question: have you ever browsed one of the cesspools of the internet? Not just poked your head in one time, but actually participated in the conversations that go on there? I have, and from my experience there people on the internet are more trustworthy than you make them out to be. Sure, you can make wild claims about things nobody really knows anything about (the roster of the next Smash Brothers game, for instance) and get away with it because no one can prove you wrong. But the moment you say something that can be disproved with evidence, then someone will call you out on it. The more widely known/easier to find the evidence is, the sooner you'll get called out and the more viciously you'll be mocked for it.
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So if we can't trust anything on Jackpoint, why is almost everything in the setting, from gear to metaplot, given in Jackpoint articles and commentary? I can't even ask a question as simple as "is this car a sedan or a coupe" without it coming down to GM ruling because hurr durr, you can't trust everything you read on Jackpoint.
Personal question: have you ever browsed one of the cesspools of the internet? Not just poked your head in one time, but actually participated in the conversations that go on there? I have, and from my experience there people on the internet are more trustworthy than you make them out to be. Sure, you can make wild claims about things nobody really knows anything about (the roster of the next Smash Brothers game, for instance) and get away with it because no one can prove you wrong. But the moment you say something that can be disproved with evidence, then someone will call you out on it. The more widely known/easier to find the evidence is, the sooner you'll get called out and the more viciously you'll be mocked for it.
Yeah I'm going to have to agree. Maybe not with all your examples but in concept overall. Sure as a default its good to say fluff text isn't rules. Like if a gun is easier to maintain, a GM can say true but not enough so that it gives a dice pool benefit, or even for that commentator it is but that is a personal preference thing. But if its basic details of the object, like if the car has 4 doors, or how big a gun is I'd you should use that, and to diverge kind of is bad for the setting. Sure a GM can rule otherwise, but a GM can also say the ranger arms only does 5P damage. I'd consider some of the jackpoint as on point as a rule so it would be just as much of a house rule to ignore it. Though I doubt it would matter nearly as often.
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you cannot use contradictory commentary with no mechanical description as any sort of "rules".
to do so is pure folly as it opens up the mechanics to contradictory interpretation.
jackpoint commentary is meant as color, not crunch.
this has been the case since 1e and the street sam catalog was released with the first jackpoint commentary.
AGAIN, if it was meant to be a rule it would be stated in the rules section. thats why there is a rules section that is separate from the commentary.
it's also why there is a description section for the equipment that is ALSO different from the commentary.
the fact that you would confuse such and then go to the mat to backup such an obviously incorrect assumption is just more fodder for why crunch books should not be polluted with non-specific and contradictory fluff that is open to interpretation.
It's not an argument for why the flavor text IS crunch.
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you cannot use contradictory commentary with no mechanical description as any sort of "rules".
There is no contradiction here. One Jackpointer says that the Sleeping Tiger comes with color change, and no one challenges them on it. If you mean the apparent contradiction with the gear description, here's a thought: maybe the Sleeping Tiger does have color change, whether by it having electrochromatic or by RPC doubling as elctrochromatic, and some fallible human forgot to put that little detail into the relevant gear or rules section.
it's also why there is a description section for the equipment that is ALSO different from the commentary.
The description section is almost always a Jackpoint article. If you can't trust Jackpoint commentary to be right about something as basic and easy to check as "product X comes with feature Y", then you can't trust Jackpoint articles to be right about anything either.
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If the commentary is contradictory you have a point but for the many items there is no description of the item or its given no context. Its a car that drives fast but that's it. Does it have a trunk, does it have 2 doors, 4 doors. Take the dodge Xenon, it says it has abundant trunk space, its a subcompact so what does that mean, one of the comments says you get a feel for how much trunk space there is when a doberman pops out. There you go, it gives some visualization of what you can use it for. A GM that said yeah it has abundant trunk space but its a subcompact it can only fit small drones, that's only jackpoint commentary is kind of being a jerk.
The ford percheron has space to sleep, how much hey there is a comment that its great for humans but bigger types its really tight. So if someone wants to and is a troll you let them because its in the rules, but you say its super tight and uncomfortable.
Also in universe the dude or writes whatever section is just another commentator, he just got wrangled into writing that section by jackpoint. So in effect everything but the stat block is just jackpoint commentators.
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you're dead wrong about "the description almost aways being a jackpoint article"
in fact it's exactly the opposite.
it NEVER is a jackpoint article afaik (I just reskimmed the R&G item entries)
the description is separate and distinct from the jackpoint text.
It's formatted differently and written differently (as a description not as someone's commentary).
The jackpoint entries sometimes contradict the crunch (see Tiffani arms bracers as being called "inaccurate" in the commentary when in fact it has an accuracy of 5 before adding the laser. 5 is pretty darned accurate for a hold out pistol, heck its accurate for a normal pistol).
I could go on but you get the picture.
Jackpoint commentary is not always accurate nor is it meant to be, it's color commentary.
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so is your position that when the jackpoint commentary contradicts the crunch that the commentary is correct?
if not why not?
it's clearly written as opinion and clearly disambiguated from the descriptive and crunch by the styling, tone, and content.
the example you give below is not crunch nor mechanics, they are opinion and clearly so.
they don't state any mechanical effect nor outcome.
while they can help inform your game if you choose to agree with them they are not and cannot be rules due to the fact that they are unreliable and contradictory and designed to be so.
If the commentary is contradictory you have a point but for the many items there is no description of the item or its given no context. Its a car that drives fast but that's it. Does it have a trunk, does it have 2 doors, 4 doors. Take the dodge Xenon, it says it has abundant trunk space, its a subcompact so what does that mean, one of the comments says you get a feel for how much trunk space there is when a doberman pops out. There you go, it gives some visualization of what you can use it for. A GM that said yeah it has abundant trunk space but its a subcompact it can only fit small drones, that's only jackpoint commentary is kind of being a jerk.
The ford percheron has space to sleep, how much hey there is a comment that its great for humans but bigger types its really tight. So if someone wants to and is a troll you let them because its in the rules, but you say its super tight and uncomfortable.
Also in universe the dude or writes whatever section is just another commentator, he just got wrangled into writing that section by jackpoint. So in effect everything but the stat block is just jackpoint commentators.
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The descriptions for all of the weapons in the main body of the text are an “in universe” post written by Dangersensei (R&G, p. 11) and the section on armor was written “in universe” by Armand (p. 57).
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you're dead wrong about "the description almost aways being a jackpoint article"
in fact it's exactly the opposite.
it NEVER is a jackpoint article afaik (I just reskimmed the R&G item entries)
You might want to look again. The armor section is authored by one mister Armand, and while the weapons section doesn't have a stated author (unless Ajax is right about it being Dangersensei) it's written in too personal a style to be an objective description of the weapons. You're asking me to adopt a double standard where I accept anything the articles tell me as fact but be highly skeptical about anything in the commentary.
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so is your position that when the jackpoint commentary contradicts the crunch that the commentary is correct?
if not why not?
it's clearly written as opinion and clearly disambiguated from the descriptive and crunch by the styling, tone, and content.
the example you give below is not crunch nor mechanics, they are opinion and clearly so.
they don't state any mechanical effect nor outcome.
while they can help inform your game if you choose to agree with them they are not and cannot be rules due to the fact that they are unreliable and contradictory and designed to be so.
I said if its a contradiction you have a point, as in if the jack point comments contradict the rules go with the rules. And no whether or not a trunk fits a doberman or not isn't an opinion, whether a troll is tight in a cab isn't an opinion, how you feel in tight spaces can be one but it being tight is objective, how long a gun is isn't a opinion. Its not a rule but it lets you know you can or can't fit one under a long coat. Its usually reflected in the rules in that no, you aren't concealing a sniper rifle anyways.
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--descriptive text--
Shotguns aren’t known for their accuracy, but Mossberg hopes the latest version of their venerable AM-CMDT will change that. After merging their classic combat shotgun design with the latest in smartgun technology, Mossberg recently began a marketing campaign aimed at law enforcement and security agencies that declared the AM-CMDT a “perfect balance between accuracy and firepower.” While previous versions of the CMDT only used flechette ammunition, the current one is capable of accepting all standard shotgun rounds.
--jackpoint text--
> The accuracy lives up to the hype, but the low ammo capacity doesn’t lend itself to full-auto use. With full ammo, you’ll get one, maybe two trigger pulls before reload is necessary. Best use for this weapon: pick a target and put it down.
> Hard Exit
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And that descriptive text was “written” by a fictional character (see citation above).
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I'd like to go back to a topic discussed previously:
Is Sleeping Tiger "too good" from a rules-mechanic point of view?
13 armor: at least as good, and in most cases better than, the other non-heavy armor options out there. Notably, the armor jacket that is fluffed as being inappropriate for most nice places only has 12 armor.
"Social" armor: You don't have to choose between dressing up and wearing armor. Unless arguably the GM invokes the fluff of Sleeping Tiger looking like Steampunk/Derelicte and that particular look isn't appropriate for a given "nice place".
And for not having to choose between "dressing up" and "being armored", the Availability is bizarrely 10. Not 10F, not even 10R, despite incorporating the afore-discussed ruthenium polymers which are 16F.
Is 13,500 not enough of a price given the other factors all aligning towards Sleeping Tiger rendering all other non-heavy armors rules-mechanically obsolete?
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I do not find it mechanically balanced, though I rearely have the startign cash on anyone but a reosurce oriented character to afford it at char gen. I usually go with the argentum coat for my looks good/good armor item and it wokrs like a lined coat and helps with concealability as a bonus. None of the items it custom fit/stacks with get it above its own armor of 12. I kind of prefer that as i like 12(14 with helmet) as the upper limit for non-heavy armor.
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It's kind of a pet peeve that every other High Fashion type armor is in the 8 to 10 range, with a few getting as high as 12...
then there's Sleeping Tiger.
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Don’t forget that the Sleeping Tiger also has a ridiculously generous Capacity as well. It really is too dang good for what it offers you.
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Yeah, it's got the fluff of being a bleeding edge status symbol, and IMO if the availability code reflected that everything else would work out.
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It's kind of a pet peeve that every other High Fashion type armor is in the 8 to 10 range, with a few getting as high as 12...
then there's Sleeping Tiger.
I basically agree, mechanically even the argentum I think should only hit 12 when you are stacking items in a set, probably should be 9ish on its own like the long coat is. Sleeping tiger his 14 with its custom fit combos. And yeah its the most expensive armor but its really not that bad. Though I generally buy 3-4 sets of clothes/armor as its weird to wear the same thing daily, you have to put them in the wash at some point.
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Technically, This item shouldn't exist.
Sleeping Tiger is made from a consumer banned technology. End of story.
Once R.P. got banned for "safety" reasons, this line of clothing would have been yanked from store shelves, as their suppliers were outlawed to sell them...
Now, yes, Corps don't have to follow these rules, as they are separate legal entities; But they usually do because it's generally not just a finger wag for the people caught breaking the law.
(Yes, legally the feds can't stop the sale of Sleeping Tiger... But they CAN arrest, charge, fine and lock up every single person that wears it! Not to mention confiscate it.)
I don't allow it in my games because of this very contradiction.
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"Social" armor: You don't have to choose between dressing up and wearing armor. Unless arguably the GM invokes the fluff of Sleeping Tiger looking like Steampunk/Derelicte and that particular look isn't appropriate for a given "nice place".
Whether or not the GM does this is a major deciding factor in whether or not it's balanced. Walking around in your pimp suit formally known as a Sleeping Tiger gets you 13 armor and +1 to your social limit. If you don't think you'll need to use that RPC, you can throw on a Synergist Business Line Longcoat on top of +3 armor and another +1 to your social limit. And while a custom ballistics mask isn't exactly a fashionable accessory, it can be easily concealed and put on at a moment's notice. For 16,100 nuyen you get 16 armor, which can quickly become 18 armor, and a plethora of social bonuses and modification slots. If you can wear that into most places, but not all places, and still be dressed in a socially acceptable manner, then I think the price is fair. It's a good investment for a physically stronger character who can carry +5 armor. For everyone else? Armor jacket for the streets, Executive Suite for dinner parties, and FBA for when you know looking inconspicuous isn't an option.
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Which is why the Ruthenium Polymer Cloak has a 14F Availability Rating; the Ruthenium Polymer Coating armor modification is 16F; and the Chameleon Suit is 10R... But for some reason Second Skin is a mere 14 and Sleeping Tiger is a ridiculous 10. Slapping an R or an F on those would be a big help.
Sleeping Tiger is just too damn good for it’s cost and availability.
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Unfortunately, I mainly play SRM, so just making "sensible" bans/availability code nerfs isn't on the table.
Something I've been doing is just insisting that 10 armor is the max you can get in a "nice" place. These places have coat rooms, and yes you must check whatever articles of clothing are necessary to get down to 10 armor. For the high fashion armors that exceed 10, it's just the "outer jacket" or whatever; the game stats stay the same other than dropping to 10 armor while in a "nice place".
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I’ve always assumed that security guards at “nice places” are given appropriate training to recognize this season’s (as well as recent years’) social armor. So the security guard at an industrial park or the beat cop in a residential neighborhood might not be able to tell an Executive Suite or Actioneer Suit from any other salaryman’s suit, the handpicked guards at a charity function being thrown by an A-rated corporate executive will recognize the distinctive cut of the Zoé lapels or the trademarked herringbone pattern of a Mortimer of London...
...and in my home games, Called Shot aiming for the parts of the body not covered by armor bypass the armor.
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Why is this even a discussion? Sleeping tiger is the cheese armor of the moment it will be replaced by the next piece of cheese armor to come along. Given what it's made of it going nearly impossible to say what it ST will look like one min to the next.
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Something I've been doing is just insisting that 10 armor is the max you can get in a "nice" place. These places have coat rooms, and yes you must check whatever articles of clothing are necessary to get down to 10 armor. For the high fashion armors that exceed 10, it's just the "outer jacket" or whatever; the game stats stay the same other than dropping to 10 armor while in a "nice place".
I have to take issue with just how meta that is, and I think it would push players away from the 3 high fashion armors that get more than 10 armor in one package. In my opinion a more intuitive ruling is that nice places don't care how well-armored you are, just how well-dressed you are. That means you can wear as much high fashion armor as you like, but your overcoat is expected to be either in the coat room or hung on the back of your chair.
A more pertinent question is 'what is the cutoff line for armor jackets?' I've always thought that the attitudes towards armor jackets is the same attitude 1950s America had towards leather jackets. Maybe you're a member of a dangerous biker gang, maybe you're trying to look tougher than you are, maybe you just don't want to get road rash if your motorcycle wipes out. In any event, most people won't have any problem taking your money off your hands.
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Something I've been doing is just insisting that 10 armor is the max you can get in a "nice" place. These places have coat rooms, and yes you must check whatever articles of clothing are necessary to get down to 10 armor. For the high fashion armors that exceed 10, it's just the "outer jacket" or whatever; the game stats stay the same other than dropping to 10 armor while in a "nice place".
I have to take issue with just how meta that is, and I think it would push players away from the 3 high fashion armors that get more than 10 armor in one package. In my opinion a more intuitive ruling is that nice places don't care how well-armored you are, just how well-dressed you are. That means you can wear as much high fashion armor as you like, but your overcoat is expected to be either in the coat room or hung on the back of your chair.
OTOH, why should you ever take the fashion armors that give 8 or 9 armor when there are the ones that give 12 armor? Yeah, a "shed articles down to 10 armor rating" coat room is meta, but I don't think it's a bad thing.
A more pertinent question is 'what is the cutoff line for armor jackets?' I've always thought that the attitudes towards armor jackets is the same attitude 1950s America had towards leather jackets. Maybe you're a member of a dangerous biker gang, maybe you're trying to look tougher than you are, maybe you just don't want to get road rash if your motorcycle wipes out. In any event, most people won't have any problem taking your money off your hands.
There's what I consider to be an easy rule of thumb: if the place has a dress code, an armor jacket doesn't meet it. There's looking out of place, and then there's being denied entry/service entirely...
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Because then every PR4+ enemy that catches them by surprise has a 1/3 chance of instakilling the players. Or any PR1 that gets 3 seconds to aim. Their choice.
Trying not to derail this thread, but:
1) PC's almost never get surprised because you only need 3 successes and you can edge it.
2) PC's can be insta-killed (or removed) in any number of ways without this rule (like being sniped or hit with a control spell)
It's just that (reasonable) GM's don't do this to their players because it's simply not fun.
But I think you missed my original point which was:
The only problem I see is when your players say "Hey.. if it's -10 to shoot them in the eye why can't I kill them?"
I was specifically saying this WOULD be a problem if you proceeded logically. The argument that NPC's would do it, really isn't a logical argument against it, it's a playability argument.
There really is no logical reason against people being shot in the head and not getting armor if they aren't wearing a helmet, it just may not be all that playable.
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I’ve always assumed that security guards at “nice places” are given appropriate training to recognize this season’s (as well as recent years’) social armor. So the security guard at an industrial park or the beat cop in a residential neighborhood might not be able to tell an Executive Suite or Actioneer Suit from any other salaryman’s suit, the handpicked guards at a charity function being thrown by an A-rated corporate executive will recognize the distinctive cut of the Zoé lapels or the trademarked herringbone pattern of a Mortimer of London...
...and in my home games, Called Shot aiming for the parts of the body not covered by armor bypass the armor.
...this is why my Character Leela has a "closet" of specialised armour for the occasion. Zoe and Mortimer for those high class affairs (including visits to the Fey realm [Second skin under her formal/court fey clothing]), Vashon for more low key but still somewhat formal situations. Scout's Tux when she needs to pull a "Mr Bond", Form-Fit under regular clothing for everyday and infiltration situations, Armoured Jacket and PPS leggings/arm bracers for slumming around in less formal places. FBA with Chemseal for more hazardous biz in the CZ, and Medium Milspec for those ultra high threat jobs.
Of course it also helps to have some armour "built in" as well. Even in normal clothes and Form-Fit, she has a base armour value of 15.
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It also helps that Leela is a veteran ‘runner with a fair amount of Nuyen accumulated; Most starting characters will only have one suit of armor (or a main suit with some accessories).
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Yeah at start I usually only have one piece of armor. Getting more suits is one of the first things I spend money on. I like the lined coat and armor jackets for a single piece as in my head it works as something you put on almost every day without worrying about it getting stinky, needing to be cleaned looking weird for wearing the same thing over and over. My years in NYC I never thought in winter, hmm i wore this peacoat 3 times this week. Things that are more actual armored clothes to me stand out as odd if you only have one of them.
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Which raises an interesting question, albeit from a mostly “narrative” rather than “mechanical” one... Does armored clothing and armored haute couture require special handling when being cleaned or does an appropriately high Lifestyle cover a smart washer/dryer that will do it for you? And how good is the Firewall of that washer/dryer?
Forensic analysts would have a field day if they got ahold of the typical Shadowrunner’s work clothes.
It’d be really awkward (and yet, kinda awesome for the GM) for a team of ‘runners to complete a grueling mission only to have their neighborhood dry cleaner phone up the Seoulpa Ring that put a price on their head. “Mistah Killfist McMurder, he no tip even though I do extra starch at no charge! You pay me bounty, I tell when he pick up suit.”
It’d be extremely awkward (but absolutely hilarious for the GM) if the ‘runner got narc’d on by their own washing machine. “Gun power residue: Detected...
Metahuman blood: Detected... Query: Blood Type Match Registered Owner? FALSE. ... ... Notifying Neo-Tokyo Metropolitan Police.”
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So, people are talking about price. But it's rating 3 on an incomplete armor. So your head ain't covered. And the old description reads 'Jacket', so one can argue the RPC only provides a -1. (Or be kind enough to label all suits as mostly-full so then it'd be -2.) But yeah, making it Restricted would make sense.
But yeah, sure you get it cheaper. But if you grab a Jumpsuit it may have less armor, but it can get Ruthenium at full benefit and comes with the possibility of Chemical Seal.
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It also helps that Leela is a veteran ‘runner with a fair amount of Nuyen accumulated; Most starting characters will only have one suit of armor (or a main suit with some accessories).
...true, that's why Sleeping Tiger is a good initial investment. It works OK for meets that may be a bit more "formal" yet has decent protection for most activity in the sprawl until you can get enough saved up for more specialised types.
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Which raises an interesting question, albeit from a mostly “narrative” rather than “mechanical” one... Does armored clothing and armored haute couture require special handling when being cleaned or does an appropriately high Lifestyle cover a smart washer/dryer that will do it for you? And how good is the Firewall of that washer/dryer?
Forensic analysts would have a field day if they got ahold of the typical Shadowrunner’s work clothes.
It’d be really awkward (and yet, kinda awesome for the GM) for a team of ‘runners to complete a grueling mission only to have their neighborhood dry cleaner phone up the Seoulpa Ring that put a price on their head. “Mistah Killfist McMurder, he no tip even though I do extra starch at no charge! You pay me bounty, I tell when he pick up suit.”
It’d be extremely awkward (but absolutely hilarious for the GM) if the ‘runner got narc’d on by their own washing machine. “Gun power residue: Detected...
Metahuman blood: Detected... Query: Blood Type Match Registered Owner? FALSE. ... ... Notifying Neo-Tokyo Metropolitan Police.”
Cleaning Service p. 220 Run Faster has you covered! I had a Runner with three different Cleaning Services at one point. One for the Armadilo, one for Armor, one for the Luxury Amenities in the Armadilo's Sleeper Cabin.
Most Expensive Squatter Lifestyle Evah.
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It’d be extremely awkward (but absolutely hilarious for the GM) if the ‘runner got narc’d on by their own washing machine. “Gun power residue: Detected...
Metahuman blood: Detected... Query: Blood Type Match Registered Owner? FALSE. ... ... Notifying Neo-Tokyo Metropolitan Police.”
There's a time and a place for throwback devices, and this is definitely one of them.
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It’d be extremely awkward (but absolutely hilarious for the GM) if the ‘runner got narc’d on by their own washing machine. “Gun power residue: Detected...
Metahuman blood: Detected... Query: Blood Type Match Registered Owner? FALSE. ... ... Notifying Neo-Tokyo Metropolitan Police.”
There's a time and a place for throwback devices, and this is definitely one of them.
...Knowledge Skill: Interest, Hand Laundering.
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It’d be extremely awkward (but absolutely hilarious for the GM) if the ‘runner got narc’d on by their own washing machine. “Gun power residue: Detected...
Metahuman blood: Detected... Query: Blood Type Match Registered Owner? FALSE. ... ... Notifying Neo-Tokyo Metropolitan Police.”
There's a time and a place for throwback devices, and this is definitely one of them.
...Knowledge Skill: Interest, Hand Laundering.
Just wear it into the shower, toss it on the towel rack when done.
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Contact: My Great-Aunt Gertie who runs Laundromat (Connections: 1, Loyalty 6)
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It’d be extremely awkward (but absolutely hilarious for the GM) if the ‘runner got narc’d on by their own washing machine. “Gun power residue: Detected...
Metahuman blood: Detected... Query: Blood Type Match Registered Owner? FALSE. ... ... Notifying Neo-Tokyo Metropolitan Police.”
There's a time and a place for throwback devices, and this is definitely one of them.
...Knowledge Skill: Interest, Hand Laundering.
I don't know how to properly respond this. Do I point out that I meant a washing machine with no wireless (as opposed to a washing board), or do I insinuate that buying a relevant autosoft is the better solution.....my one Proletarian drone has recently become three, so I've been thinking a lot about autosofts lately. The description of the Criado Juan (can handle domestic cleaning, but not anything more complex without an autosoft) makes me think the three little guys can do all my housework for me, but now that you got me thinking about it....nah, I probably don't need my laundry done the old fashioned way.
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...a washboard is as "throwback" as one can get. unless you can find one of these:
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/id0AAOSwa~BYTs~A/s-l300.jpg)
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(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQT2G4nxHCkaior08mTJXCzOZ98TI5MPooZlNxr0XyO2No8fkb0)
That's way to high-tech, KK. Let's get really old school:
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Come on guys, be reasonable. You don't expect every throwback gun to be a musket, do you?
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Come on guys, be reasonable. You don't expect every throwback gun to be a musket, do you?
Of course not. Some of them might be a musketoon, blunderbuss, or even an arquebus.
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Or any 10 year old gun that hasn't been updated for the wireless matrix. Just saying.
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Come on guys, be reasonable. You don't expect every throwback gun to be a musket, do you?
Where did you get those balls from eh??? <pulls out wifi scanner> Oh, Billy's used metals emporium, only $3.99 a pound for lead!
Now, if only I could find a network for my Nokia 232...
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Come on guys, be reasonable. You don't expect every throwback gun to be a musket, do you?
Where did you get those balls from eh??? <pulls out wifi scanner> Oh, Billy's used metals emporium, only $3.99 a pound for lead!
Now, if only I could find a network for my Nokia 232...
...or film for my Ricoh 35mm SLR.
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Hmm, I've got a high-lifestyle ork guy who probably won't be caught dead in this stuff, mainly because of how it's cashing in on Ork Underground desperation. Though I definitely want him dressed for any occasion, I'm personally drawn to a softweave/fresnel Summit Suit & Argentum Coat, so as to cram that capacity full of whatever I can. I'll be ready for anything, with the possible exception of APDS.
As a possible suggestion to reconcile the Sleeping Tiger fluff/crunch which I probably shouldn't prod, I've thought of that colour change feature as exactly that: you can set it to one of (maybe four?) colour schemes, as well as Ruthenium camo, but without as fine detail as electrochromic, unless you spring for that. That way, it can fit with both major factions.
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I've always gone with:
Vest covers torso
Jacket cover arms and torso (but not head, hands or feet)
Duster & Suit cover arms, torso and legs (but not hands or head)
Your Jacketed outfits don't include with gloves? Must be warm where you live. What's covered by armored clothes?
Honestly, legs being covered or not covered by armored jackets and suits are equally valid interpretations.