[rednblack]

So, I'm about to start GMing a campaign set for a bunch of vampire hunting PCs.  One of the players requested a Gunstock club, as the character's melee weapon of choice, so I statted one out.  I'd like to get feedback from those more crunch oriented members of the community.  Is this OP?  Is a good melee weapon?  Do the stats make sense, etc?  Thanks in advance for your time:

Weapon

Accuracy

Reach

Damage

AP

Avail

Cost

Gunstock Club

5

1

(STR+3)P

-2

9R

900¥

I went with the AP of forearm snap-blades.  It's tricky because a combat knife has -3, which seems applicable, but the blades on a GC aren't as long, though with a good swing, you'll get a lot more power behind your blow with a GC than with pretty much any of the bladed weapons, save a katana, which isn't really a piercing weapon.  I hope this is amenable to you, but I'm willing to discuss it further.  Ditto for Accuracy, but this one seems in line to me with what it should be.  Also, no reason why you couldn't get a Personalized Grip to go with it.

I've also drawn up some additional "heads" that you can put on the GC.  Stats as listed above assume steel blades.  Also available are:

Flint Blades: Deal base damage on a glancing hit.  Roll 1d6 each time the weapon is swung.  On a glitch, the blades break off.  Cost 200¥  These blades can also be knapped using the Artisan skill.

Wooden Stakes: +2AP.  Roll 1d6 each time the weapon lands a hit.  On a 5 or 6, the stakes break off in the flesh of the victim if they deal P damage.  If the blow would otherwise do S damage, they break off into the armor, but do not make contact with the victim's flesh.  If the stakes are broken off into a victim's flesh, they deal 1P dmg per combat turn until they are removed with a Simple Action.  Cost 50¥  Stakes can be whittled using the Artisan skill.

If anything, I think the Flint heads may be OP, but I'm curious on what other's opinions are.  This is PbP game, so I'm not worried about bogging down the table by rolling an extra d6 for every attack.

[Namikaze]

Can you post a picture of what you're basing this weapon on?  In my experience with a gunstock club, it's a club and there are no blades involved.

[rednblack]

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/imgPart/AAI-288_1.jpg
http://www.kickingwolf.com/uploads/Gunstock_war_club_wampum_strap.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunstock_war_club#mediaviewer/File:Iowa_gunstock_club_NE_1800.jpg

As given to me by the player. They don't have to have blades attached to them, but these stats assume there will be.

[Darzil]

I'd probably just treat it as an club (pg 423 These stats represent a range of objects, including an axe handle, baseball bat, wrench, crowbar, a tire iron, and a two-by-four with a rusty nail in it.) Club also seems a more reasonable cost, as it's basically just recycling a handy piece of hard and heavy wood.

If they really want to go for lots of blades, maybe treat it as an axe, though maybe not as damaging as the much higher tech combat axe.

I presume the ongoing damage from stakes is just used against vampires?

Edit - I guess if I were going to try to make it a new weapon, not a club, less tech than a combat axe, some penetration, I'd probably go with:

Accuracy 4 (certainly it's no better than a high tech combat axe)
Reach 2 (it's a pretty long weapon as pictured)
Damage (STR+3) P (it's mainly a club)
AP -1 (polearm is -2, and that's a much longer blade on a stick)
Availability, probably none, but maybe restricted.
Cost 100 nuyen tops.

[Spooky]

Sounds fair to me, since it is basically a primitive combat axe. Not as powerful as a modern high tech axe, but still capable of serious damage.

[Namikaze]

Okay so I would treat it like any other club, but with the option to be used as a bladed weapon for the purpose of sticking that sharp knife blade into something.  I realize it's counterintuitive because the motions for both are pretty much identical - you're not trying to slash with the blade, but rather hit someone with the whole thing, just like for the club end of it.  But I think it'd be smart for game balance to implement this weapon as utilizing two different skills.

As for the club side, the stats would be a hybrid of a rifle butt and a sledgehammer:

Gun Club [Clubs, Acc 3, Reach 1, DV (STR+3)S, AP 0]

And for the blade side, I'd treat it like a punch dagger:

Gun Club Blade [Blades, Acc 4, Reach 1, DV (STR+2)P, AP -3]

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

I might bump the acc on yours, personally, Namikaze. Maybe 4/5 or so before personalized grip. Also, in no way is the damage stun for the club half. It was used to crack skulls (since it was an eastern US natives war club), more like a standard club, and did it very well actually.

[Namikaze]

Yes, that should have been a P instead of an S - that's what I get for copypasta. 

But I wouldn't change the accuracy.  Functionally, this is similar to a sledgehammer in application.  You have to take a big swing with it, and it's extremely heavy, especially on the "contact" portion of the weapon.  Since the sledgehammer is listed with a 3 accuracy, it seems reasonable to expect similar results.  Giving it a 4 or 5 accuracy would put it on par with other clubs, but most of these aren't giant weapons of the "smash your face" variety.  The closest comparison would be a combat axe, but a combat axe gets it's damage not from weight and swing, but from the blade.  The weight and swing just enhance the blade - they aren't the whole of the weapon's effectiveness.

[Darzil]

I don't see high accuracy either, though I was happy with it as just a club. It's a basic modification of an improvised club. Adding a blade concentrates the force, so it punctures a bit, but hits over a smaller area, making the club bit less effective. It's not designed from the ground up as a melee weapon like other items, it's just better to use that hardwood from an old gun no one wants than to try to find hard wood for a club. Now, if you were developing a new weapon from scratch, with careful weighting, high tech materials, liquid metal centre for increased momentum on hit, razor sharp diamond plated cutting surface etc, designed to put all the momentum into the piercing blade and balanced perfectly for swinging, then it'd be very different, and much closer to combat axe (probably one more accuracy, one less reach, one less damage, as it's shorter).

[rednblack]

Thanks to everyone for their feedback.  It's given me some stuff to think about.

As for Accuracy, I have a problem with simply using the stats as clubs as listed.  First, the club examples given are items not intended for use as a melee weapon.  Also, in SR5 there's a huge disparity between the items.  A 2X4 with a rusty nail in it, is going to be far less accurate than a baseball bat, to say nothing of the difference in reach from a tire iron.  to be fair, a baseball bat is weighted for a particular swing -- given it's purpose -- and isn't well suited to change directions mid-swing or to be used one-handed, but a gunstock club is suited for all of those purposes.

I don't see the correlations to either the Combat Axe, or a sledgehammer.  These things typically weigh between 0.9-1.3 kg, making them much more closely weighted to a katana or a rapier than anything.  A combat axe would easily be twice as heavy, while your average sledgehammer would be between 5 and 10 time heavier than the Gunstock Club.  If I was designing a Maul, I would buy the 4 -- or even 3 -- Accuracy, but these are much more finesse weapons than I think it's getting credit for.  The weighted head helps to give the Gunstock Club power behind its swing, but the low overall weight helps for fluidity of motion and for keeping its wielder from going off balance.  The one sticking point I see here is that Stun Batons are also given a 4 Accuracy, and they would be wielded in a similar fashion.  Perhaps the Accuracy reflects trying not to stun yourself, or that only certain parts of that club give off a charge?

Here's a video of someone doing a demo with one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yGu8Y11d24

[Namikaze]

That video you showed is nothing like the gunstock club your player is referencing.  The picture your player showed you is from Assassin's Creed 3, in which the gunstock club is a two-handed behemoth of a weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdunPrBObto

In the end, you are free to do what you want - it's your game after all.  I would strongly recommend talking this out with your player, because it seems like you guys are on completely different wavelengths.

[rednblack]

That video you showed is nothing like the gunstock club your player is referencing.  The picture your player showed you is from Assassin's Creed 3, in which the gunstock club is a two-handed behemoth of a weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdunPrBObto

Thanks for posting the video.  That thing is a monster.  Of course, even assuming the larger end of historical gunclubs, it will be much lighter than the other corresponding weapons that have been listed.

In the end, you are free to do what you want - it's your game after all.  I would strongly recommend talking this out with your player, because it seems like you guys are on completely different wavelengths.

As for the first part, of course, but as I said in my OP I am looking for the input of players and GMs who are better versed in the crunch than I am.  SR5 is the first edition of SR that I've played, and I'm not really a numbers guy, so I really appreciate the feedback that I've been given.  Don't take any disagreements I may put forward to imply otherwise.  As for the latter, I have been.  It's all via text, but I'm under the impression that we're talking about the same team, if not the same league. 

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Awesome on the damage code issue.

The gunstock club (or similar war club) was in Last of the Mohicans. While heavy, I would not put it in the maul/combat axe range, as it was 2-3 lbs. Also those recovered from archeological digs did not show any signs of converted muskets. Honestly, I would go with club stats and add 1 point of AP, if I made this weapon for a player.

[Darzil]

That smaller one I can certainly see having a bit more accuracy, and a bit less damage

It still seems to me a (well) improvised weapon rather than a purpose designed melee weapon, and I can't see it getting close to a highly engineered modern shadowrunner's weapon. One of the clubs listed is an axe handle, a thing purposely designed to be swung in a hand and to impart maximum impact with it's end. A gunstock club is a thing purposely designed to absorb impact along it's length from firing the gun, removed and wielded as a melee weapon. I'm surprised if that makes it more suited for melee.

What is the player intending? Do they plan to carry it for style, or as a good weapon? My character is certainly looking to get a small axe for style, but isn't intending to use it (he's a dwarf decker with an axe obsession), and wouldn't be effective with it. It'll never hold a candle to a Katana, and most of the melee weapons are very cheap. Or is the whole game not really shadowrun, and just using the rules as you are most comfortable with them?

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Again, historical it was not an improvised weapon, it is called gunstock by what it looked like, not what is was moded from. Besides, every club under the club listing is a improvised weapon, this was not. It was designed to be a weapon and was effective too.